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[Andresvmb]

NPOM is making a lot of consecutive posts I agree with. Namely, 224, 226 and 231. In fact, the last one meshes quite well with what I’m arguing. I share VPB’s caution about the intent to vote thing (in my experience, when Town feel a certain way, they tend to just vote directly and not make a show of it), so on balance I’m not convinced NPOM is Town, but I’m leaning that way.

[Andresvmb]

I am getting negative vibes out of Snowblaze. They were attacking VP Baltar's logic on #105 and I simply do not agree at all. Nothing wrong with disagreeing of course, but it seemed like a lot of shade in an attempt at defend Iconeum, and against a player that just seems Town to me.

That’s... not what I was doing? I was just pointing out something that didn’t make sense?

I will accept this. I don’t agree it did not make sense, but you are probably right in that I was reading more shade into your post than there really is.

[Andresvmb]

@Andre, can you explain your thoughts on Testarossa in more detail? 168 just feels like you’re saying “I would call her town except I disagree with her reads so I can’t”.

The last paragraph in 112 from Testarossa is what’s keeping me from calling Testarossa hard Town (any update from you on this @Testarossa would be appreciated). The whole approach, the way Testarossa asks questions (for example in 113), all seem to come from a Town mindset for me. For example, the observation regarding the RVS vote from Billy Pilgrim after making a strong argument that NPOM was Scum is a good one. 114 assumes a devil’s advocate type position also, which again is totally reasonable (and the probing about what’s driving VPB’s read of NPOM is definitely good).

So yeah, at least initially and after re-reading the ISO, I see Testarossa as Lean Town.

[Datisi]

Ah no wait, 210 seems to actually explain the reasoning behind the SR on me - my “huge fencesit opening”. I thought the meta here involved being somewhat detailed about your views. Can someone explain this one to me? Because from where I sit, this looks like a completely made up reason justifying an action taken after a vote on them.

there can be "meta" about being detailed about your views. but it's generally assumed that, when you're being detailed about your views, you're actually having views and taking stances. if you're using a lot of words to say Not Much, that's a different story.

andres, is there a difference in your mind between ico's 210 (the part about you) and my 162? if so, can you talk about it?

189 is funny. Iconeum and I have never played before. They have no idea how I play Town or Scum, how I phrase my arguments as either alignment, or what my skills/weaknesses are. Yet they seem to believe that they can point to one post of mine agreeing with another player and come to the definitive conclusion that I’m Scum. Notice that it also comes as a hedge regarding their vote on VPB, followed by a switch onto me in 193. Yet after all of that, they feel like they need to speak directly to me, asking me to re-read VPB’s ISO. Why? If I’m surely Scum, then what is there to convince me about?

Now, again, I’m not trying to say I know for a fact that Iconeum is Scum. That would be absurd. And it’s just not a skill I have. However, the reaction is obviously way over the top, and I don’t see the Town motivation. Not everyone that believes you are Scum can be Scum. But instead of probing or trying to figure out where we are coming from, the primary response was aggressiveness followed by two votes.

208 - I am wholly unmoved by this, and it’s just a blatant appeal to emotion. I mean this is an obviously Scummy post.

can you talk about these parts? if you think it's absurd to think someone is definitely scum this soon, and that you would "probe or try to figure out where someone's coming from", why are you shading iconeum for speaking directly to you and asking you something?

why is 208 "obviously scummy"?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I am leaning towards voting Inoc. My initial gut is that she was trying to get a read on me but the argument has been made that the townslip argument was off which is something that I agree with somewhat. None of the other players that have posted recently strike me as scummy. I would like to hear more from Inoc and GB though.

So why aren't you voting them? You wedded to the GB vote?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Rereading everything so far now that I'm not on my phone.

Misses the townslip from GB,

How is this alignment indicative for NPOM or anyone?

Sorry, but I don't believe in RVS. At least as much as I can try to avoid it.

Why?

D) I'm considering switching my vote from GB but he's not making it easy by not posting.

I am leaning towards voting Inoc.

This actually does bug me. Like why are you saying "look out guys, might switch my vote here!"

Why not just vote?

Explain the wind up to me.

re: baltar, i have not played with his alt, i just remembered seeing him say somewhere he's got that account, and the join date being a few years back. i don't actually know anything about his play, i just assumed earlier join date = more experience.

I looked it up (admittedly quickly because I only have so much time today). I'm going to say, it's safe to think NPOM's posting style doesn't feel strongly indicative of alignment. He definitely seems like he puts off weird vibes as either alignment and could be an easy yeet D1. I still stand by my read that scum!Icon could see that as an easy target, but that read feels softer now. (Also, see above weird vote telegraphing from NPOM.)

Honestly the dude seemed testy, which could be scum or could be a way town reacts to jokey rvs. The fact that he doubled down on it almost feels too scummy to be scum. But i thought that overt hostility was too scummy to be scum before and that player ended up being scum. So this is something that im going to treat as a play style thing that may be less so later.

*farting noises*




Alduskkel -- if we were going to do some dualing wagon action, who would you want run up with NPOM?

Not sire what you meant by farting noises.

[Andresvmb]

I am shading Iconeum for speaking to me directly because it is not genuine probing. Notice that they only attacked me as definite Scum after I voted them, yet felt it was still important to try and direct me away from them (presumably, if I question VPB’s logic, and realize it’s wrong, I’ll move away). So for me, that ship has sailed to some extent. They are obviously going to disagree with VPB’s assessment of the situation - that’s fine. It’s the stated agitation about two players probing their slot that just seems Scummy to me. I did not count all of the votes on me, but it seems as if I’ve garnered more votes than Iconeum, yes? You don’t see me lashing out at people for their view. They are wrong, and I’m hoping I can seem more obvious Town as the game goes along. But again, none of you have played with me again so I could not possibly expect that everybody is going to read me correctly.

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: Billy Pilgrim

Not really away from NPOM, but I feel it's locking too much into NPOM/Icon and I don't really like Billy's posts or what he isn't doing atm.

Care to elaborate a bit beyond not liking my posts? As for what I'm nlt doing, I already don't like early game stuff, on top of that a massive storm hit the northeast US and i lost internet then sheltered my in laws for part of last night, so early D1 was even lower priority than normal.

[Andresvmb]

Also, your skepticism about me being non-committal is fair. But step into my shoes for a minute - this is literally my first game on this site. Do any of you expect me to have pinpoint reads about players that have a lot of experience playing Mafia? I’ve been around right - the guys that sound the best and can keep their cool and make solid arguments are not always Town. If anything, VPB’s style of play very much strikes me as someone that can manipulate Town quite well. If I was saying that VPB was definitive Town or Scum, then you should be more worried about my alignment.

[Andresvmb]

^that’s all for Datisi.

[Billy Pilgrim]

VPB/Andres/NPOW

1 scum

VPB with the very strange scumread on me, which is in straight contradiction with reasons provided by him
Andres, with the huge fencesit opening
NPOW for reasons stated earlier and general interaction with me

I think the dragon is town here. He's been pushed for weird reasons by a bunch of different people and he's engaging and trying to work with them. The overconfidence in reads is just a playstyle thing for icon. His gifs building to his conf!scum conclusion is usually epic and im a bit disappointed we haven't seen any yet.

[Datisi]

andres, is there a difference in your mind between ico's 210 (the part about you) and my 162? if so, can you talk about it?

i actually didn't notice ico attacking you as "definite scum", could you point that out? and like, you're saying as if "lashing out at votes = scum" and "not lashing out = town", which is not always the case

[Datisi]

hm. nobody is expecting you to have pinpoint reads, but it's because of that unsaid expectation that pointing out you do not have pinpoint reads seems scummy...

[Billy Pilgrim]

it's like... the more nopoweroverme posts, the more i disagree with him, but also the more i think his posts come from a genuine place of wanting to solve the game?

+1 these are my least favorite slots.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Datsi

can you talk about this read a bit more?

You seem willing to communicate and are trying to figure people out, rather than acting like you already know.

So is confidence the main way you read people?

[Datisi]

Also, your skepticism about me being non-committal is fair.

[snip]

If I was saying that VPB was definitive Town or Scum, then you should be more worried about my alignment.

if skepticism about you being non-committal is fair, is skepticism about you being fence-sitty also fair?

also very disagree with the second point, but dunno how AI that is

[Billy Pilgrim]

1) I'm assuming he's guessing that you are smart enough to sense mislynch bait and you think I am it, and that eliminating me would lead to a similar result as the last time I was day 1 eliminated for little or no reason. He's not wrong, as you are holding on to your assumptions way to strenuously.

2) I think you're being a literalist here again. Obviously different players play town and scum differently. You should ask him about his scum reads, not me.

3) I think a lot of people think that you started defending GB too quickly. All I did was ask a few ice breaker questions and you decided I was trying to eliminate him.

In general, you are holding on to your opinions to tightly even in the face of opposition, and even when there is good/logical reasoning against them. Just because you say something loudly doesn't make it true. And either you are scum who is trying to hard to get town lynched or you are just communicating badly.

NPOM, you're doing alot of explaining what VP was thinking. Why?

[Andresvmb]

andres, is there a difference in your mind between ico's 210 (the part about you) and my 162? if so, can you talk about it?

i actually didn't notice ico attacking you as "definite scum", could you point that out? and like, you're saying as if "lashing out at votes = scum" and "not lashing out = town", which is not always the case

189 seems like a strong attack no? And I’m not making super broad points about how everybody plays Mafia. But do you not agree that the agitation and obvious anger from Iconeum (Caps seem like an effective way of communicating anger) are not a bit over the top over two votes?

[Andresvmb]

Also, your skepticism about me being non-committal is fair.

[snip]

If I was saying that VPB was definitive Town or Scum, then you should be more worried about my alignment.

if skepticism about you being non-committal is fair, is skepticism about you being fence-sitty also fair?

also very disagree with the second point, but dunno how AI that is

I have not been fencesitting. Please point out to me how I’m playing like I’m sitting on the sidelines waiting for people to chew each other out.

[Billy Pilgrim]

1) I'm assuming he's guessing that you are smart enough to sense mislynch bait and you think I am it, and that eliminating me would lead to a similar result as the last time I was day 1 eliminated for little or no reason. He's not wrong, as you are holding on to your assumptions way to strenuously.

Look at this from HIS pov. He literally said that in that particular game, you got mislynched easily. And that scum had to do nothing for it. Everyone pushing you in that game was TOWN.
How does that make him scumread me for doing that, in this game? Where is the logic from his pov?

I actually explained this already. I think it was snowblaze who asked me?

I was actually thinking I might have been wrong in my initial scum read of you, but your completely over the top reaction and OMGUS to a single vote is very interesting.

Let's get some more votes on Icon pls. Hellbrooks, testarossa, we got a live one over here.

Ok now im interested, you admit that you may have been wrong in your initial scumread. Icon points that out says your bad logic (which you've already admitted) makes you scummy and now you characterize his reaction to a bad push as "completely over the top" and "OMGUS." Please explain this logic.

VOTE: VP

[Datisi]

But do you not agree that the agitation and obvious anger from Iconeum (Caps seem like an effective way of communicating anger) are not a bit over the top over two votes?

over the top? perhaps. scum!indicative? no.

[Datisi]

So I’m going to place VP Baltar as a Town Lean, though I’ll admit that he certainly sounds like he’s been around, so could be fooling me

this is what i see as fence-sitty. "could be town but uhh he could be fooling me." are we using the terms differently?

[Datisi]

Please point out to me how I’m playing like I’m sitting on the sidelines waiting for people to chew each other out.

also i never said that, so please don't put words in my mouth

[Andresvmb]

So I’m going to place VP Baltar as a Town Lean, though I’ll admit that he certainly sounds like he’s been around, so could be fooling me

this is what i see as fence-sitty. "could be town but uhh he could be fooling me." are we using the terms differently?

You’re entirely focused on the one read I gave much earlier, but are not looking at the rest of my posts. I won’t be voting VPB soon. I think VPB is Town. I believe we are coming from similar places. VPB is experienced, so I am not going to pretend I’m married to this read.

I mean I was called as a huge fence sitter by Iconeum. This is the sort of thing that is typically reserved for players when they see a wagon building, have expressed a view that said player is Town, but they leave an opening to hop on to that wagon to ensure that Town is eliminated and not Scum.

[VP Baltar]

Ok now im interested, you admit that you may have been wrong in your initial scumread. Icon points that out says your bad logic (which you've already admitted) makes you scummy and now you characterize his reaction to a bad push as "completely over the top" and "OMGUS." Please explain this logic.

Are you actually reading the game?

I did not admit to anything regarding Icon's "bad logic" argument because it is flat wrong. Icon failed to read properly and the OMGUSed me is what took place.

I said I could be reading the situation wrong because after I did some more meta review of NPOM, this is just kind of how he plays. It certainly doesn't detract from my point that he is an easy scum target if he is town. But I was willing to say he does attract attention because of the way he posts, which would weaken -- though not entirely negate -- my initial read of Icon.

However, Icon then following up on me saying that by completely losing it for two pages that anyone would question their motives for voting NPOM and then pretending like attacking NPOM is some bold and risky stance is quite rich.