TM 2021 Large Normal 2: Wikipedia Integer Facts (Over)

[Dunnstral]

A50 is moving in the opposite direction in read structure from last game. Probably a good sign.

Lilith thinks Dunnstrall is town because they think he plays with an aggressive deepwolf agenda as scum. While here he's not showing much of an agenda. Is that accurate Dunn? I wouldn't know.
Says they're hard scum reading IV but also, they always scum read IV.

I thought Oka was less of a firebrand here, naturally on the same page I say this they go all scorched earth on Ythan. S_S liked his vote on LLD as a reaction test. But like, meh. :yawn:

I can't read the auro through xtom filter, unless it's a 1 to 1 translation a lot is probably being lost. Is it against the rules to copy paste team discussion?

dogshit take
you cant read the 80% of my posts that arent auro either?
this is scum posting bullshit to fill out a lackluster reads post
you have one of the most active and supportive teams, and this is the sum total of their comments in 90 pages?
nah dude
you're scum

I also now think Bell is scum

It's a culmination of TW being low hanging fruit and then replacing, and Bell being kind of weird here

Benefit of doubt: Bell has your team weighed in on the xtoxm read?

[innocentvillager]

I also now think Bell is scum

It's a culmination of TW being low hanging fruit and then replacing, and Bell being kind of weird here

i am meh on this Bell scum take tbh

[Luca Blight]

It's a culmination of TW being low hanging fruit and then replacing

I really don't get this part.

[innocentvillager]

you have one of the most active and supportive teams, and this is the sum total of their comments in 90 pages?

also why is the lack of teammate content scum!indicative especially when worsty didn't put out content and is kind of scumread? to me, at

the worst

it's null and honestly possibly town!indicative

[Luca Blight]

VOTE: Ythan

I feel as though he's coasting on his Lady Lamb vote while having Poka as his main SR, but not really pushing it or doing anything at all. I don't see any progression or reasoning behind his thoughts or reads.

[Luca Blight]

The more I mull it over the more I think Lady Lamb is likely Town.

[Luca Blight]

So, my question is how do I fix LLD v DGB when LLD is largely checked out...

Hmm

VOTE: the worst

Mastina, help me bus worst.

mastina's scum with TW. The moment I ask her to lim a scumread, she backs off the scumread.

Her walls are IioA, especially 1905. Her "content" gives nothing verifiable. She just states someone is scum and then states their actions are scummy. She's trying to create a t v t atmosphere and people like dgb are eating it up.

Mastina and the worst are scums.

Ceph is right about game health though.

This push seems dishonest.

Mastina SR's Titus more than tw, and had said so before this sudden push from Titus. It's understandable that when a bigger scumread of yours votes a lesser scumread, you're not going to be massively enthused about also joining that wagon right there and then. This seemed a bit manipulative, as though designed to make Mastina look bad more than anything.

[AGar]

[snip]
I can't read the auro through xtom filter, unless it's a 1 to 1 translation a lot is probably being lost. Is it against the rules to copy paste team discussion?

dogshit take
you cant read the 80% of my posts that arent auro either?
this is scum posting bullshit to fill out a lackluster reads post
you have one of the most active and supportive teams, and this is the sum total of their comments in 90 pages?
nah dude
you're scum

Um... not what was said by even a mile?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

About DGB, Dunn.

I am having misgivings because something in my brain is saying "you've seen this before and killed her for it and she was town" and I know it doesn't mean she's town here but I'm having hesitance in going all in on bashing her bad play.
I'
Cause I know if I say shit like "her pushes are bad, she has post facto logic, she doesn't susbstantiate anything even after days of interactions, she focuses only on pot shots and on me and not using my wagon to develop other strong reads, she makes bullshit flimsy reads lists...."

like, those are all good reasons to kill DGB. I just don't know if they make her scum and it concerns me that my instincts are saying "hesitate"

[Lady Lambdadelta]

[snip]
I can't read the auro through xtom filter, unless it's a 1 to 1 translation a lot is probably being lost. Is it against the rules to copy paste team discussion?

dogshit take
you cant read the 80% of my posts that arent auro either?
this is scum posting bullshit to fill out a lackluster reads post
you have one of the most active and supportive teams, and this is the sum total of their comments in 90 pages?
nah dude
you're scum

Um... not what was said by even a mile?

How many times you think you've had to say this this game?

This is my problem, I think. This is my issue with this game. We can't just have people who decide that playign mafia with a 2nd grader's reading comprehension skills is too much for them to do.

It's constantly people who are misrepresenting points in big long posts and when called on it make more big long posts

and then people rushing to their defense being like "they're doing misreps, but is it really scum?"

I'm gonna quote a favourite person of mine on this topic.

They might not be mafia, but they're definitely scum. - SpyreX

I'm starting to just lean towards "kill all the baddies, let the mod sort them out" too.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Which I know is a little dissonant from the above post talking about my hesitance on DGB's bad play, but it's just where I've been coming from. Massive hesitance.

[innocentvillager]

It's constantly people who are misrepresenting points in big long posts and when called on it make more big long posts

and then people rushing to their defense being like "they're doing misreps, but is it really scum?"

in general this is a fair criticism but i believe everyone is guilty of this to some degree. the best we can do is try to minimize it. it's harder to not just go "they are misrepping this post so they are scum intentionally doing it" but it still doesn't mean they are scum

[Dannflor]

lolsolve rn is something like {Titus, dunnstral, Cephrir, AGar} don't @ me

someone let me know if they wanna towncase any of these 4

ive briefly talked about Titus

i get heebie jeebies from AGar's ISO this game (to be fair i don't think I've ever townread this slot and I've only played with with him twice and he was town both times? but idk, I explicitly feel a little worse about him this time than the previous times?)

I know Gypyx townleans Dunnstral but like... idk im getting a survivalistic postury vibe from him

Cephrir is superficially different but is anything outside his scumrange here? mehhh

cephrir is my pocket super town read this game. Is there anything about him that has specifically worried you or is this just PoE + not seeing anything special?

AGar I'd be interested in specifics as well.

[Dannflor]

A50 is moving in the opposite direction in read structure from last game. Probably a good sign.

Lilith thinks Dunnstrall is town because they think he plays with an aggressive deepwolf agenda as scum. While here he's not showing much of an agenda. Is that accurate Dunn? I wouldn't know.
Says they're hard scum reading IV but also, they always scum read IV.

I thought Oka was less of a firebrand here, naturally on the same page I say this they go all scorched earth on Ythan. S_S liked his vote on LLD as a reaction test. But like, meh.

I can't read the auro through xtom filter, unless it's a 1 to 1 translation a lot is probably being lost. Is it against the rules to copy paste team discussion?

dogshit take
you cant read the 80% of my posts that arent auro either?
this is scum posting bullshit to fill out a lackluster reads post
you have one of the most active and supportive teams, and this is the sum total of their comments in 90 pages?
nah dude
you're scum

bell like could be scum but I don't really agree that this is why

Why doesn't the lack of amazing strong content tell apply to Luca Blight as well? This just feels like an overreaction to a scumread

which I'm not saying is scummy but this response feels more emotional than anything

[Dannflor]

i was thinking town but now that you ask me i'm overly comparing to last game and doubting it

I have the same doubts but every time I think about wagoning Okapoka I get queasy

[Cephrir]

it's because oka's present and understandable and also cute and we have few enough people like that that we'd be making the game less fun by killing them

i don't especially think bell is scum yet; i also don't want to kill his slot today anymore because ive been told he is an easy read with a little time.

i think ythan is a good wagon because frankly i don't know what's going on in this game and nothing of value will be lost if he flips town. i am having difficulty generating and maintaining any scumreads i can feel good about, so why not aim for the "will always be null" pile. i guess i no longer think LLD is the worst yeet of all time because it would provide a wealth of information, but i don't know that i trust most of you to usefully parse that information and dannflor is probably getting shot tonight if she flips town and that will make me very sad.

[Hopkirk]

that time i said i was free for is going to be broken up by some food in the middle

Spoiler:

w.r.t. to wagoning a replacement - there is no point in wagoning a pending replacement, but if im going to vote there its more scarier for the replacement to come in, make a bad post and then me voting them then it is for me to be already there. is it AI? statistically its scum indicative but high minded players will shout at me for saying that.

how are you reading LLD and i need to check what you're pushing because this seems like pushing against the wagon and i thought you weren't saying you were against it

I'm still leaning town on LLD, admittedly my original towncase on LLD does not hold. Am I against an LLD wagon? IDK. I have issues with it because the arguments for it seem to be converging now on the xtoxm vote, which is surprising because the wagon started before it. All the other arguments i feel require me to believe LLD is scum before they look scummy, and nobody to me has connected the dots on why x action is a scum action. It's more "well it's not town" which I suppose can work in a PoE world but this isn't a PoE world.

why? (w.r.t. reads on LLD should be strong)

If you are going to come out swinging, people usually immediately have an opinion on you. it probably takes more work to get it back towards the middle.

do you mean the two days where i wasn't posting when you say 'recently' or before then

it was for a pretty long stretch of time where my read started to degrade. probably after the first 48 hours.

which of their points do you think are an over the top character? looking at say the post i asked LLD about earlier?

it's more of a holistic thing gameplay wise, how it is trying to gather votes on lld, openly giving townreads for agreeing with it or voting with it. that feels like too much in one direction. don't know about the other part if you want to link it again or reclarify.

if pressed to answer i could see oka being a lld buddy, he's been at least presenting himself as someone who could be persuaded to join, but when talking to im not getting the sense that he actually ever would. i also feel like he's reducing our suspicions to less than they are. it feels like he keeps saying we dont have a case, and maybe we haven't presented in a strong and convincing way why we believe in this, i think all of me/dgb/mastina have to some degree explained ourselves.

that's a little frustrating to hear. ive tried to give you guys something to be excited about explictly, being by waning LLD townread to hopefully incetivize you guys presenting a concentrated post on how you connected the dots on lld being scum, but you guys gave me the BoP argument and want to work on a dgb towncase instead of doing some analysis. look im downplaying your case because i feel like there has to be something else that you just aren't mentioning, and half of me asking you about your lld argument is to figure you out, not lld. lots of arguments are flying around but i don't feel like they get to the bone, just a summary about what lld has done this game and meta tangents. the fact remains that there are enough people that share the same concern with me w.r.t. lld's wagon where maybe its not a me problem but a you problem.


who's the wall writer now

spoilered as long

3- i'm questioning my read on LLD so i disagree with this. don't see why an initial early attention grabbing thing has to result in 'strong' reads when i'm somewhat conflicted over it right now
4- when and why
5- can you point to any specifics then? 1810/15 are the posts i'm talking about from xtoxm/lld that i wanted your thoughts on

anyone who was commenting before about 'x is trying to appeal to a crowd' want to comment on agar before I remember who it was and ask them directly?

i was unsure if him adding "scum" to the end of that was a joke or not

how. how would that have been a joke. how would it being a joke nullify my point?

do the rest of your team have any thoughts about me. like uh... had Ydrasse been talking about me in your team pt ?
does Kanna have any reads in general of this game/is she reading it?

only infinity has been reading. I think kanna might be trying to catch up but idk where she's at with that

infinity thinks you're town

i was hoping to read you via your team
so uh... do they townread you yet?

So hopkirk, what is the plan if lld is town?

Is this what we call a TMI question?

If LLD is town then you're next LOL.

This is bad

i'm still sorting people. LLD isn't 100% scum here, i'm at like 40-45% on the slot being scum. how certain did you have the impression i was?

That wasn't what I asked

How do you look at the game if lld is town? Why is scum pushing this?

?
if lld is town then the wagon is still mostly town. i've said this, why are you asking me this? i have independent townreads on pretty much everyone who's been parked on the wagon and wouldn't expect more than 1 scum there whatever lld is

This is definitely coming at me from a starting position of wants to call me scum. everyone who's commented has told me the stuff you've said about me trying to start stuff is bad/actively insulting. you're taking 'counterwagon' is a word and trying to use one word I used (and people should know how I type/talk by now) without considering the actual thoughts being conveyed there. Wittgenstein would hate you.

I clearly mean like dueling wagons for that one and am including it with the counterwagons because it's another wagon with similar people to show there's been a bunch of wagons like that. instead of engaging with the logic/meaning you're choosing to jump on a word/the phrasing as 'scum' which doesn't come from good faith town as it's inherently not in good faith/trying to work things out. That's coming from a mindset of trying to say 'look hop is scum and everything he says is proof of that' which only comes from either town who's 100% (doesn't feel supported by your history)or scum who's thinking this kind of stuff is easier to attack people on than by actually engaging with the ideas

Noooope fuck off.

Counterwagon isn't just some arbitrary term on this site - it has a meaning that the players grasp. The fact that you want to try and cop out by hiding behind "oh I meant something else" doesn't fucking hold water with me any better than a strainer. You were trying to distort the narrative and the moment you got caught, you came in with "oh no I meant something else."

You're not town.

Eat a yeet please and thank you.

anyone who was commenting before about 'x is trying to appeal to a crowd' want to comment on agar before I remember who it was and ask them directly?

i was unsure if him adding "scum" to the end of that was a joke or not

Hopkirk is scum.

It's really that simple.

I said what I said.

except you can parse the meaning perfectly fine if you're not trying to pick at a single word?
everyone knows which wagon came first. scum!hop would have no reason to lie about the order. likewise, as town i don't lie about it
so why's it AI? why does scum!hop say something he knows is untrue when it isn't even relevant to the point he's pushing or any scum agenda?
this kind of nit picking the wording of something comes from scum a lot more than town
i want other people to weigh in on this point. this is scummy af

[Dannflor]

VOTE: ythan

[Dannflor]

this game is a bunch of players who all fiercely scum read each other for reasons I can't quite seem to grasp

[Hopkirk]

-The paranoia Oka had about Mastina politically shifting her read on him to get him to vote LLD was very nuanced.

It may be nuanced but I'm not convinced it is nuanced in a way that is innately town. After all, anyone who uses the FL buzzwords is disproportionately likely to subscribe to the FL playstyle--including the false generation of this sort of 'nuanced' read.

-DGB linked a scumgame where LLD was being ragey scum. She feels less fake here, he can see her faltering on confidence of her read on hercule but isn't quite wanting to give it up (following up)

While LLD is less ragey this game, that is not a towntell. LLD is no more a chronic rager as scum than as town and she has plenty of rage-lite/free games as both alignments. Her faltering of confidence on hercule is something which I feel is more likely to come from her as scum with the way she handled it rather than as town. This one I in part am deliberately holding off from describing due to LLD not having posted the amount necessary for me to describe why I think this, but after LLD has posted more if you remind me about it, I will come back to this and explain exactly why I think that a town-LLD doesn't back down here or IF she does, the way she does so is entirely different from how she has done so here.

Basically it comes down to LLD doing something which looks town (oh right I forgot, in this game I need to use the buzzword and say LLD is doing something performative), rather than actually reacting the way she would as town. There's two ways I would expect her to be acting here if she were town, but LLD did neither, at least not yet.

neither of us think LLD is being non ragey. hectic is saying the rage feels more genuine here and i

kind of

see it, especially in the lead up to her leaving the thread for a while.

sure i agree and i think poe is op as fuck but rn i need a better reason than "not townie" to vote lld is my point

why?

that's a little frustrating to hear. ive tried to give you guys something to be excited about explictly, being by waning LLD townread to hopefully incetivize you guys presenting a concentrated post on how you connected the dots on lld being scum, but you guys gave me the BoP argument and want to work on a dgb towncase instead of doing some analysis. look im downplaying your case because i feel like there has to be something else that you just aren't mentioning, and half of me asking you about your lld argument is to figure you out, not lld. lots of arguments are flying around but i don't feel like they get to the bone, just a summary about what lld has done this game and meta tangents. the fact remains that there are enough people that share the same concern with me w.r.t. lld's wagon where maybe its not a me problem but a you problem.

i'm difficult to read this game?
im hiding things??

Spoiler: for okas eyes only

okay oka i went back thru our disc looking for the times we've spoken abt lld which was a lot of effort btw cus its gigantic at this point

its all paraphrased even my own stuff

auro comments that lld keeps attacking hercule but without giving reasons. scumleans lld.
i mention that im in general agreement with him that lld's push is weak/silly, and im confused why so many people are joining the hercule wagon

auro talks about how eliminating hercule is hugely beneficial for scum and pushing there is suspicious
i nod in agreement

auro comments that he'd be alright with a bop on lld
i say that i found that post really scummy, its over-bargainy and that those kind of offers never get followed through on, if lld mis elims OBVIOUSLY she's going to continue resisting her elim after
auro thinks its a town tell, and asks me if its ever happened before
i say i dont know

lld makes some kind of posting saying she forgot agar is playing and auro thinks this is town indicative for some reason

auro notes that lld still hasnt explained the hercule read and wants me to press it

auro has done some meta research on lld, and shows me the link i showed a50 earlier. notes that its the same basic thing lld is doing here

auro thinks lld is acting in a exaggerated way

i comment that it seems like lld doesnt care to have me vote herc with her

some general comments that the herc wagon is awful, and that he tr everyone who is vote lld
i agree with him

he asks me if im planning to vote lld
says he's going to perma tunnel lld if herc gets eliminated and revealed to be town
i say that i do plan to, the game is feeling a bit overbearing atm i'll do it later

auro says the behavior between lld and dann looks bad

auro says that lld is a capable enough player that she should be able to see that hercule has reacted in a town way, it's scummy that she's still trying to push it through to a kill
says that we need to be aggressive and prevent a powerwolf from eliminating a player who is clearly town

wants me to start talking about our dunn read, suggests that if lld defends dunn that could be an indication they are aligned

auro notes that lld townreads everyone who shades hercule
i comment that as we predicted, she tr dunn
i say i think there will be at least 2 mis elims before lld can go
auro disagrees, he thinks we can do it today

auro is starting to tr iv, particularly if x's suspicion on lld is correct

auro criticizes lld's discrediting of mastina

auro suggests posting our case on dunn, he think if lld is scum, and dunn town, then votes will fall on dunn easily.
i say that while i sr him more, i think lld elim will be better for the game
auro says he feels the same way

auro: noteworthy that lld asks dunn to change her mind on hercule
x: i sr the interaction
auro: why
x: the read on dunn looks manufactured, maybe its a position she's been planning to take
auro: i could see that. maybe she's realized herc wagon was an error, and wants out, and wants to elevate dunn's voice

auro: fabricating a lowering of confidence is a great way to escape from the situation. her ate is nai. tell hercule to look at scum games where lld does ate.

auro:
- scum make a plan of pushing hercule, who at the time was beginning to get townreads
- plan fails due people like mastina, dgb, us
- scum push forward with the wagon
- mastina talks about a game where lld!scum did this to xofelf
- over the top discrediting of mastina
- fabricated change of heart

i comment that one of the biggest reasons i sr lld is the way she's interacted with dunn

x: i really want to see a flip already this is taking so long
auro: lld is scum so of course its going to be slow

x: is there any chance that talk of lld's scumhunting prowess is overhyped and her reads are just wrong? im gonna take a step back, im tunneling too hard for d1

auro: if lld were town, what would we be expecting her to do here?
x: have reads that align even a little with ours?
auro: might be able to construct a case around that. situation in the game is also a factor in the lld read.
x: she already lost the bop she asked for imo. she tried to push herc wagon all the way, and im sure he's town

x: lmao lld voted us. kinda relieved after all these trs on us.
auro: yep.
x: makes me more confident in lld-scum again
auro: i think that would be how she'd react as town, too, though. oh, she's going super aggro on us. i'll be inspired is she can get us mis eliminated.
x: hope more people realise she's scum now
auro: lld is really good at utilising misrepresentation

auro: do you want to spend some time building a solid case on lld?
x: not atm

auro: dgb, mastina, herc wont move
x: im probably ok. maybe she's going for me to try and get tr, by having people talk her into voting dgb since she posted {herc, x, dgb} as the pool, ppl are more likely to tr lld if they think they're convincing her to join on dgb instead of me
auro: eh, im not sure

x: this is stupid. lld is absent, not giving reads other than bad pushes on me and herc, and getting townread for it

auro: lld looks like she's been lurking tactically, based on the timing of her post

auro: it's humorous how lld is constantly attacking credibility.

thats not quite everything but im tired of this
i dont expect this will convince you of anything but you can stop saying im hiding things now

sorry xtoxm, i read the stuff that's for oka's eyes only (i didn't even steal his eyes first), it's toooooownie stuff

i've reconvinced myself that the scum are just not doing anything as we yeet our strongest asset for no reason but i need her to come prove that opinion right by having some good takes and caring about the game

the 'strongest asset' wording here is so pockety/performative

[Cephrir]

oh right, i'm voting dgb

VOTE: ythan

[Cephrir]

except you can parse the meaning perfectly fine if you're not trying to pick at a single word?
everyone knows which wagon came first. scum!hop would have no reason to lie about the order. likewise, as town i don't lie about it
so why's it AI? why does scum!hop say something he knows is untrue when it isn't even relevant to the point he's pushing or any scum agenda?
this kind of nit picking the wording of something comes from scum a lot more than town
i want other people to weigh in on this point. this is scummy af

even though i still suspect you, yes i don't think agar's point here is very compelling and it is the sort of refuge in logic thing that scum classically love to pick at

[AGar]

except you can parse the meaning perfectly fine if you're not trying to pick at a single word?
everyone knows which wagon came first. scum!hop would have no reason to lie about the order. likewise, as town i don't lie about it
so why's it AI? why does scum!hop say something he knows is untrue when it isn't even relevant to the point he's pushing or any scum agenda?
this kind of nit picking the wording of something comes from scum a lot more than town

Because you're specifically picking a single word that, again, has a very very specific definition and trying to say "no I used that word but I did not mean the specific thing that has been defined on this site for at least 12 years".

"scum!hop would have no reason to lie about the order" Scum!hop just tried to slide one by and got called on it. Scum!hop was too smug and thought he could get away with one. It looks like scum!hop is doing something but scum!hop is just making shit up to support his shitty pushes. You literally used it to try and justify the wagon on LLD - you painted it as "one of many counterwagons to LLD." The only reason counterwagons are even being discussed wrt LLD is because some people are trying to use "resistance" that never existed to point out why LLD is scum, and you're just throwing more bad fuel onto that fire. I fucking wonder why.

I'm nitpicking a word because you have a habit of saying something and when called on it you're being coy with "oh I didn't actually mean that," and that's fucking scummy as hell because it lets you wriggle out of any fucking position you take with a simple handwave.

Eat. A. Yeet.

[Cephrir]

the 'strongest asset' wording here is so pockety/performative

because if i'm scum here i need to pocket lld any further than i already have been with you know the entire way i've played the game at this point. there's no way that's my honest opinion at all. i might re-award that title to dann tho, since i seem to be better at working with him

[AGar]

[snip]
I can't read the auro through xtom filter, unless it's a 1 to 1 translation a lot is probably being lost. Is it against the rules to copy paste team discussion?

dogshit take
you cant read the 80% of my posts that arent auro either?
this is scum posting bullshit to fill out a lackluster reads post
you have one of the most active and supportive teams, and this is the sum total of their comments in 90 pages?
nah dude
you're scum

Um... not what was said by even a mile?

How many times you think you've had to say this this game?

This is my problem, I think. This is my issue with this game. We can't just have people who decide that playign mafia with a 2nd grader's reading comprehension skills is too much for them to do.

It's constantly people who are misrepresenting points in big long posts and when called on it make more big long posts

and then people rushing to their defense being like "they're doing misreps, but is it really scum?"

I'm gonna quote a favourite person of mine on this topic.

They might not be mafia, but they're definitely scum. - SpyreX

I'm starting to just lean towards "kill all the baddies, let the mod sort them out" too.

I've been doing this dance for over 200 pages and honestly it's removing any semblance of enjoyment from this game.