Newbie 2061 | Views of Tallinn | Town wins

[Lukewarm]

Like there are two possibilies:

Catboi+Sama/VFP

Day 1, catboi put his scum partner as a null read / slight town read, and when other people scum read his partner, he never actually went so far as to defend sama, but instead questioned the other person's scum read. Every single time.

And then Day 2, VFP replaced in, once again catboi put a slight town read on his partner until *gasp* Not_Mafia came out with "lets vote VFP or better yet flash wagon catboi" at which point the scum team cross voted, but catboi continued to try and push the vote off of VFP

Then on Day 3, the general consensus was "catboi is the more likely scum between lukewarm/catboi" and so over the Night phase catboi hunted for an alternative, and spotted a push he could make against marci

OR

Marci+Sama/VFP

Day 1, Marci listed Sama in her top two scum reads, but pushed on other people as a way to distance

Then the night kill got blocked, and because they were 2 goons they knew that meant they could fake claim tracker

Marci then decides to go through with the fake claim, and claims Meuh was her target and that she had not moved. Which imo, was not her safest fake claim option.

Spoiler:

At the time she made the claim, there was a chance that Meuh was the jailkeeper who had used her ability as though it was a Doc ability, ie, she targetted a town read (which is exactly what Not_Mafia did) And there is no way that Marci would not have know that was a possibility for Meuh, because it had been discussed in the thread

If you are a jailkeeper who targetted a scum read, out yourself. If you are a jailkeeper who targetted a town read, keep it to yourself.

And Meuh made it very clear that she was toeing that line specifically

I'm not a jailkeeper who jailed a scumread.

compared to how some other people responded

I'm no jailkeeper so I didn't jail a scumread

And then the whole town buys her fake claim, and everyone starts referring to her as confirmed town.

And then she is told to choose vfp or catboi. Like she so easily could have gone with catboi, but for some reason went against her own partner.

Spoiler:

Like Not_Mafia specifically gave Marci the choice (bolded for effect)

marci

vote VFP

Or

better yet

we flashwagon catboi

And not only did Not_Mafia present it as Marci's choice, he even included a "better yet" pointed in catboi's direction. And she decided to make a case against her own partner and vote him anyways.

Like option 1 makes sense with no caveats. Option 2, requires
-Marci realized that she could fake claim Tracker
-Marci deciding to follow through with the fake claim, and clear Meuh (who was not the safest lie)
-Marci deciding to make a case against VFP and vote him, when she could have easily gone with catboi. (And from my understanding, newbie players are way more hesitant to bus)

So occam's razor says that the possible solution that requires the least number of concession to be true, is more likely to be true. So I concluded it is just Marci.

Spoiler:

Bonus points to

OPE that explains the shift in her read on me
I confirm that info btw

You noticed that Marci did shift her read on you from Day 1 -> Day 2.
Is the simpler explanation that he track cleared you over night, so she shifted her read
OR
That as scum she scum read you in Day 1, then came into Day 2 and changed her read on you for no apparent reason, then lied about tracking you (and remember, at the start of Day 2, she would not have know which of her / VFP would be the one who needed to fake claim tracker)

[Lukewarm]

Spoiler:

He put both in his bottom 3, made a case against pear, then said he would rather elim Marci over catboi.

So elim priority was pear > Marci > catboi

You put too much stock in hollow words, and not enough in actions. So he said he'd prefer to lim her - what steps did he take towards actually making that happen?

You're viewing the game in overly simplistic terms . This tends to come from a lack of experience. Scum try to obscure connections between them. That's part of the game. You're seeing all the light distancing that took place between marci and her teammate, and assuming it somehow unaligns them, when in fact the opposite is true - they expressed suspicion of each other throughout the game but avoided exerting real pressure. That's textbook distancing. But you haven't played enough to realize this, you see something as basic as me misreading VFP and assuming we must be teamed because of that, when the opposite is true - I rarely ever defend a teammate the way I did VFP.

Actions speak louder than words is something you should always keep in mind, yep!
Luke, Marci's behaviour day 1 towards Sama and the scumread she expressed do not somehow clear the pair, it's an early day 1 read with no action taken from there until Marci picks the read back up and votes VFP in mid-day 2, I don't understand how partners lightly pressuring each other is somehow clearing, especially since as Catboi said, scum partners are TERRIFIED of being paired up and defending each other.
Basically scumteams wanna maximize the degree to which they can assure the other's safety while also maximizing the distancing, and you seem to be overvaluing the "keeping safe" part because of some light pressure with no real action, and undervaluing the distancing aspect.
scum!Marci wouldn't be going
"Ohhh I think Sama is town I don't understand why people scumread him it doesn't make sense to me "

I think that you guys are misunderstanding my own position. I do not think that the Marci/Sama/VFP interactions clear her... And my actual thoughts on their interactions were a very small part of the whole path that lead me to the conclusion that catboi=scum.

Overall, I just think that the case against Catboi is stronger. To quote back Catboi

Ultimately this is all just speculationand I think there's always a scenario where anyone could have done something as scum, but it's your job to decide who is more likely to be scum

I went through, and examined catboi, built a whole case on how I could see them as a scum team - see post 1021 - and despite seeing a strong case for a catboi-VFP partner pair, I kept examining all possibilities.

My next step was to look over catboi's case against Marci - and overall, thought it was a weak case. Like it required a lot of mental gymnastics to conclude. See 1037 for an example of where I felt like his case was lacking, but over all it felt like in order to build his case against her, he had to cherry-pick his posts, and ignore posts that would have countered his case - instead of explaining how his case was correct despite those other posts.

But I did not stop there, I went into the Marci/VFP/Sama joint iso, specifically in the mind set of "I am going to build a case that they are partners." And to be clear, I did not even come to the conclusion "these interactions can't come from partners." I said, that I was not able to build a good case that they are partner. While similar on the surface, there is a distinct difference between those two conclusions.

I looked at the cases they both built against each other. I looked at the cases other players presented against both of them (like this is how I found that quote where pear called the scum team as VFP+catboi lol). And then tried to personally build my own case against both of them. And then I compared everything I saw against both of them, and came to the conclusion that Catboi's case seemed stronger/more likely.

So let's not boil my whole thought process down to "Marci scum read Sama/VFP, so they can't be partners" - because that is a gross oversimplification.

I mean I think building a case

against

Marci and letting me and Catboi reply to it would probably help us develop our thoughts on Marci's alignment as a group better than one defending her, even if you're not confident in the case you're making, I think it'd be better for game progression to have 2 different angles being contemplated

I don't think that's your whole case but when ~1/3 of 1025, the post where you make a case for Marci being town is arguing that point, I feel like debunking it is pretty relevant?

Okay, I see the confusion. I did not make myself clear, that I was not trying to make the case that Marci+VFP could not be partners. I put my notes down for when I analyzed their joint iso. And then ended with "I am not seeing enough here to build a case that they are partners." My bad.

[catboi]

Lukewarm with all respect, you're in a confirmation bias tunnel. It's clear nothing I do or say matters to you. Arguing with you is like arguing with a brick wall. Your logic on me is wrong, just as your logic on was wrong on Pear, and wrong on VFP as well. I can't argue with you when your entire reasoning process is just...backwards. So I'll stop because it's clear we aren't going to have productive conversations.

When Not_Mafia puts the "VFP or Catboi" choice into the thread. Scum team catboi+VFP have no choice but to cross vote. But Marci could have agreed with me, and tried to shift the decision to catboi. In that scenario, I was the one being vocal about it not being VFP, so I would have been the obvious partner for him, not her.

Lukewarm is grossly oversimplfying the context of these events. Let me walk through what happened:

At that moment in time right before the claim, VFP's vote is glued on me, and I was voting N_M.

catboi (2): VFP, Meuh
Not_Mafia (2): T3, catboi

Not_Mafia claims here.

I'm the doc, I was on Pear, now vote VFP or catboi

Meuh and T3 immediately jump on me to bring me to E-2.

catboi (3): VFP, Meuh, T3
Not_Mafia (1): catboi
VFP (1): Not_Mafia
marcistar (1): Pearofclubs
Not Voting (2): marcistar, Lukewarm

With 8 players alive, it takes 5 votes to eliminate a player.

VFP makes this post right after:

I'm not CC here.
So Pear is actually town then. Catboi is flipping red here.

This is not a post scum who is bussing into autoloss makes.

At that moment, I assume I am likely to be eliminated. I intend to have lukewarm as my dying FOS and make a post, only to reconsider it just 3 minutes later because I looked at T3 and decided he and in3kro were never partners. From my point of view that meant VFP had to be mafia.

I'm town and not counterclaiming doctor.

I think scum intentionally tried to push pear to see who would defend them so they could narrow down the doctor. In that light VFP and Lukewarm both look terrible. I think T3 is the town out of that group, but I'm not sure of it.

Sorry my reads have been so terrible.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Lukewarm

T3's immediate push on in3 means he and lukewarm are almost never aligned, actually, so VFP is probably the surest bet for scum. I'd go him tomorrow and then probably lukewarm but that's a weak guess.

VOTE: VFP

Not_Mafia sees I'm, doing and decides to vote VFP because I'm trying to solve.

Let’s go VFP actually

VOTE: VFP

catboi’s being too solvy

VFP makes another post. He continues to keep his vote on me. At no point does he try to divert the elimination elsewhere from a potential autoloss.

Not_Mafia second guesses and votes lukewarm.

VOTE: Lukewarm

Fuck it, flashwagon on Luke

I jump again, because I found the way lukewarm was arguing to be scummy.

Lukr and catboi are fighting with each other. Unless this is elaborate scum theatre they are not both scum. I am town. This leaves VFP as CONFIRMED SCUM.

I mean, we're not voting each other.

VOTE: Lukewarm

well, we weren't, anyhow

Here is the first time after Not_Mafia said "VFP or catboi" that marcistar posts:

catching up so hard

i wanna do that, but if i do that before posting my big post ive been writing will it all go to waste?

So, contextually, there was never a chance to marcistar to vote me. Now, she could have voted lukewarm, as there were two votes on him from me and N_M. Now, to her credit, she doesn't do this. She votes VFP. But there was no guarantee of a lukewarm vote going through, even if VFP switched. T3 was pushing hard for eliminating VFP:

Lukewarm, catboi. If you are town then you should not have trouble with voting VFP.

If me voicing my reads and concerns gets me vote out, it gets me voted out, but I am going to hold out hope my read can pass the vote for as long as possible.

I'm gonna leave my vote on Catboi until ~1 hour before the deadline, but will hammer either the VFP wagon or my own to avoid a no elim if needed.

If I die before then, let me just say for posterity, I'm pretty sure Catboi is scum.

We hear your reads. But if you vote VFP the town automatically wins.

So she votes VFP. As I've already said, this is a no-lose vote for her.

VOTE: VFP I tried looking at votes, I don't think this would be hammer, but i'm unsure. If It is i'm sorry for not announcing intention. I think this would be the best flip for today.

Sure, she loses her partner, but everyone is assuming her claim is automatically town. Lukewarm and I are tunneling each other. It's an ideal situation to bus for her because it seems likely that town will just push on each other and ignore her. Not_Mafia won't jail her after VFP flips, and she doesn't get suspected for trying to save scum. Bussing there was 0 risk for her. If, on the other hand, she had voted lukewarm, it's possible VFP gets elimmed the next day anyway and then it reflects worse on her. Further, there's no guarantee people vote VFP. The ideal scenario for her is she leaves a correct vote on VFP while town decides to eliminate elsewhere.

Meanwhile, VFP continues to vote only me, while saying I should be the elimination.

Catboi is still the better vote in terms of giving an extra clear with a scum down, but I think it's still a win regardless.
T3 is going to be town here and Catboi / Lukewarm are going to be the scum team.

Just go with that and don't let anyone de rail tomorrow.

whos left in the pool of scum?

t3, catboi and lukewarm?

Catboi and Lukewarm.

This would be terrible and nonsensical play as scum. I would be trying to save VFP from a wagon on him, while VFP continues to bus into autoloss. It doesn't make sense. Rather than even trying to vote elsewhere, he tries to persuade town Lukewarm to put the wagon on me:

My concern with this post, is that if you do flip town, that would leave the PoE down to me+caboi, which I already know is not true

Then lim Catboi and work it from there.

And as we can see from pear's unofficial count, at that point in time I was far more likely to get eliminated:

Just realized I'm still on Marci. UNVOTE:
So I just did my own votecounting, feel free to double check but:

Catboi:

3 (VFP, T3, Lukewarm)

Lukewarm:

2 (Catboi, Not-Mafia)

VFP:

1 (marcistar)

Not Voting

2 (Meuh, Pearofclubs)

So we're really not actually that close to a hammer (A proper votecount would be appreciated)

I'm fine with going for Catboi today, I've already put forward that I'm thinking it's Catboi/VFP.

Just wanted everyone to know where we stand.

To believe that VFP is scum with me, you'd have to believe he was deliberately gamethrowing at this point in time.

This is getting long, so let me make one more point about marci in my next post:

[Lukewarm]

And since I did not feel like I could make a good case that they were partners, I didn't make it.

Plus, catboi's case is already in the thread, so I thought both angles were already here

[catboi]

After voting VFP, here's the posts marci makes:

So if that was the plan for D2, I have to look at VFP who pushed me from the get-go day 2. Ink3ro flat out didn't understand the scumread on me.
It's VFP/Catboi, methinks.

Theres no importance over which one to get right..? Since its just a rolecop game?

I'm not sure who would be VFP's teammate but he sure is the scummyest.

[quote="In post 729, marcistar"

I mean I don't think they'd just hop off the wagon immediately after Marci's claim, that'd look worse than just pushing on Pear

I'm confused at this post, can you explain pretty please?

My point was that your claim put this game in the B2 slot. If the mafia was pushing on Pear because they believed the kill was prevented by a jailkeeper (which would mean the jailkeeper wouldn't know Pear is town), then knowing it's in B2 would shift their perspective on if they should push on Pear or not. However, the people pushing on Pear wouldn't completely stop pushing him because of this, since it'd look scummy to hop off the wagon suddenly.
This isn't a very important post to understand though honestly so dw
AHHH okay thanks I understand now

if we vibing, wheres the alien twerk meuh smh smh!!

Spoiler:

how do we even send gifs

idk it looks weird

WAIT THATS THE ONE YES

WAIT THATS THE ONE YES

Something.... something has happened to the chat while I was typing that message

I know you enjoy it stop hiding the truth!!! Alien twerk is just natural for people to love

I'm curious: if he flips green, who is everyone looking towards for tomorrow, and if he flips red, who you guys think he could be partnered with.

Green - I'll probably look more into t3 because of how hard hes been pushing in the recent posts. and then catboi, because I dont see lukewarm x t3 in the case of a town flip here.
Red - You, but otherwise i'm unsure. Specifically we have to search in the group of you/t3/catboi essentially. catboi feels unlikely in this scenario, but im unsure. So it still leaves you/t3 LOL.

She largely fluffposts, and only makes a single post saying "VFP is the scummiest" without any actual reasoning. She doesn't advocate or push for his elimination at all. She doesn't care. Acting like this is clearing for her, because she voted VFP and didn't push him is ridiculous. She didn't convince anyone to vote VFP yet Lukewarm is crediting her like she singlehandedly drove the wagon. Again, that's an ideal scenario as scum: bus weakly while town screws itself up by voting other people.

[Meuh]

Can I vote Marci safely? There's 2 on Catboi and 1 on Marci rn right?
Marci scum makes so much more sense to me and I don't wanna stop myself from voting who I think is scum because of some bias I randomly thought up
If we lose because Catboi's really good at building solid cases and arguing, then that's a loss I'm willing to take, idc, but it's exhausting to act like Marci isn't the more likely scum here
Luke I'm 100% willing to take the blame for the loss if Marci's town at this point, if Catboi's scum he's played this game very well and has pocketed me perfectly

[catboi]

And, on one final note, VFP was voting me BEFORE Not_Mafia had even claimed:

I do think VFP is probably townie.

VOTE: VFP

I guess I'll compromise. I don't think I fos not_mafia anymore.

A bit of a change of heart there?

I can lim Catboi today as it's probably just catboi and Pear with NM as the back up.
608 was just basically trying to get a confirmation of a PR.

VOTE: Catboi

Even under the assumption we had sussed n_m as likely PR (which makes no sense seeing as I voted him), he would still be bussing into autoloss with his vote on me. Then, after I voted him here, I unvoted again and pushed elsewhere, ruining any potential credit I would get from a bus, and making it much more likely that

I/b] get eliminated, rather than VFP. It makes no sense whatsoever as scum play.

Under lukewarm's logic, I am scum who was trying to save my partner, but my partner was bussing me into autoloss, but that doesn't matter because lukewarm has decided he was obligated to do so, but I somehow wasn't required to push back on VFP.

Lukewarm just wants to see me as scum no matter what and so warps his view of events to fit the narrative he wants, ignoring the fact that what VFP and I were doing would be the absolute worst scumplay possible. If I were trying to save him, why would he push me instead of trying to get the vote on someone else? If he was willing to distance from me, why would I try to protect him rather than go all in on bussing him so I look good? What was my plan to win the game as scum supposed to be?

[catboi]

Can I vote Marci safely? There's 2 on Catboi and 1 on Marci rn right?
Marci scum makes so much more sense to me and I don't wanna stop myself from voting who I think is scum because of some bias I randomly thought up
If we lose because Catboi's really good at building solid cases and arguing, then that's a loss I'm willing to take, idc, but it's exhausting to act like Marci isn't the more likely scum here
Luke I'm 100% willing to take the blame for the loss if Marci's town at this point, if Catboi's scum he's played this game very well and has pocketed me perfectly

Yeah, you can vote her, lukewarm would have hammered me if he was scum. It's the right move but I have to hope lukewarm either stops tunneling or is willing to trust you.

[Lukewarm]

Lukewarm with all respect, you're in a confirmation bias tunnel. It's clear nothing I do or say matters to you. Arguing with you is like arguing with a brick wall. Your logic on me is wrong, just as your logic on was wrong on Pear, and wrong on VFP as well. I can't argue with you when your entire reasoning process is just...backwards. So I'll stop because it's clear we aren't going to have productive conversations.

When Not_Mafia puts the "VFP or Catboi" choice into the thread. Scum team catboi+VFP have no choice but to cross vote. But Marci could have agreed with me, and tried to shift the decision to catboi. In that scenario, I was the one being vocal about it not being VFP, so I would have been the obvious partner for him, not her.

Lukewarm is grossly oversimplfying the context of these events. Let me walk through what happened:

At that moment in time right before the claim, VFP's vote is glued on me, and I was voting N_M.

catboi (2): VFP, Meuh
Not_Mafia (2): T3, catboi

Not_Mafia claims here.

I'm the doc, I was on Pear, now vote VFP or catboi

I would say that you are skipping over an important point here. Not_Mafia pushed the VFP or Catboi idea, before he outed himself as the "doc" Specifically 607+609. You never voted for VFP before 607 and VFP never voted for you before 607.

Meuh and T3 immediately jump on me to bring me to E-2.

catboi (3): VFP, Meuh, T3
Not_Mafia (1): catboi
VFP (1): Not_Mafia
marcistar (1): Pearofclubs
Not Voting (2): marcistar, Lukewarm

With 8 players alive, it takes 5 votes to eliminate a player.

VFP makes this post right after:

I'm not CC here.
So Pear is actually town then. Catboi is flipping red here.

This is not a post scum who is bussing into autoloss makes.

I have addressed this as well... VFP making that post is the exact reason why T3 was eliminated over you yesterday. Once the cross vote happened, I admit that VFP pushed hard on you. But imo, if you think one of the scum is going out that day, then your best bet is to make sure the thread does not think it is possible for the two of you to be partners. And it came close to working. We all voted out T3 over you because of how VFP handled the end of that day. And I think that it would have carried through to getting me voted out, if not for the fact that Not_Mafia made it so clear her scum read me that everyone decided he must have tracked me.

At that moment, I assume I am likely to be eliminated. I intend to have lukewarm as my dying FOS and make a post, only to reconsider it just 3 minutes later because I looked at T3 and decided he and in3kro were never partners. From my point of view that meant VFP had to be mafia.

I'm town and not counterclaiming doctor.

I think scum intentionally tried to push pear to see who would defend them so they could narrow down the doctor. In that light VFP and Lukewarm both look terrible. I think T3 is the town out of that group, but I'm not sure of it.

Sorry my reads have been so terrible.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Lukewarm

T3's immediate push on in3 means he and lukewarm are almost never aligned, actually, so VFP is probably the surest bet for scum. I'd go him tomorrow and then probably lukewarm but that's a weak guess.

VOTE: VFP

Not_Mafia sees I'm, doing and decides to vote VFP because I'm trying to solve.

Let’s go VFP actually

VOTE: VFP

catboi’s being too solvy

VFP makes another post. He continues to keep his vote on me. At no point does he try to divert the elimination elsewhere from a potential autoloss.

Not_Mafia second guesses and votes lukewarm.

VOTE: Lukewarm

Fuck it, flashwagon on Luke

I jump again, because I found the way lukewarm was arguing to be scummy.

Lukr and catboi are fighting with each other. Unless this is elaborate scum theatre they are not both scum. I am town. This leaves VFP as CONFIRMED SCUM.

I mean, we're not voting each other.

VOTE: Lukewarm

well, we weren't, anyhow

Here is the first time after Not_Mafia said "VFP or catboi" that marcistar posts:

catching up so hard

i wanna do that, but if i do that before posting my big post ive been writing will it all go to waste?

So, contextually, there was never a chance to marcistar to vote me. Now, she could have voted lukewarm, as there were two votes on him from me and N_M. Now, to her credit, she doesn't do this. She votes VFP. But there was no guarantee of a lukewarm vote going through, even if VFP switched. T3 was pushing hard for eliminating VFP:

Lukewarm, catboi. If you are town then you should not have trouble with voting VFP.

If me voicing my reads and concerns gets me vote out, it gets me voted out, but I am going to hold out hope my read can pass the vote for as long as possible.

I'm gonna leave my vote on Catboi until ~1 hour before the deadline, but will hammer either the VFP wagon or my own to avoid a no elim if needed.

If I die before then, let me just say for posterity, I'm pretty sure Catboi is scum.

We hear your reads. But if you vote VFP the town automatically wins.

So she votes VFP. As I've already said, this is a no-lose vote for her.

I think that this is the point where I most strongly don't buy your push here. Like everything else is "there are two explanations of that" so I am putting the alternative out there, similar to what Meuh was saying in 1043.

But this one, I think your logic is just wrong. Like when you spell out the order of events more thouroughly then I did, it makes Marci seem even more town.

Marci was a away from the thread for a while, and missed a lot of the VFP or Catboi thing from Not_Mafia. But she comes back, and she sees

marci vote VFP

Or better yet we flashwagon catboi

T3 vote catboi

I'm the doc, I was on Pear, now vote VFP or catboi

Let’s go VFP actually

VOTE: VFP

catboi’s being too solvy

VOTE: Lukewarm

Fuck it, flashwagon on Luke

And decides "yep, I'm going to bus here." Not_Mafia is confirmed town at this point, and is currently leading the wagon away from her partner. Like where is her risk at just saying "I'm going to trust Not_Mafia here." And if both confirmed town were on the same wagon, that would have almost certainly saved her partner without it every bringing any suspicion on to herself

[catboi]

I am really good at arguing regardless of alignment, TBH. That comes with experience. But I also don't make nonsensical plays as scum and the way VFP played around me would be some of the worst scumplay imaginable.

[Lukewarm]

Marci was a away from the thread for a while, and missed a lot of the VFP or Catboi thing from Not_Mafia. But she comes back, and she sees

marci vote VFP

Or better yet we flashwagon catboi

T3 vote catboi

I'm the doc, I was on Pear, now vote VFP or catboi

Let’s go VFP actually

VOTE: VFP

catboi’s being too solvy

VOTE: Lukewarm

Fuck it, flashwagon on Luke

And decides "yep, I'm going to bus here." Not_Mafia is confirmed town at this point, and is currently leading the wagon away from her partner. Like where is her risk at just saying "I'm going to trust Not_Mafia here." And if both confirmed town were on the same wagon, that would have almost certainly saved her partner without it every bringing any suspicion on to herself.

Reposted this section, because I don't want it lost in the long post

[Meuh]

Tbh elim me over Catboi, that's probably better for the game, unless he's town and my read is off, but I would

NEVER

make an incorrect read

I don’t think you r scum wither way Catboi. So that vote is meh, but i’m still feeling like N_M could be town.

I mean that's understandable if you don't believe me, it's not like I'd claim it's the strongest case even if I feel it's my best lead right now.

Tbh elim me over Catboi, that's probably better for the game, unless he's town and my read is off, but I would

NEVER

make an incorrect read

You should generally never offer yourself up for elimination like this, especially when it's far from guaranteed who the wagon will be on. After all, you know you're town while anyone else is just a guess. You are right that I'm town here, but I hardly claim to be some great scumhunter, my reads are typically not great.

My main worry here is that Norwee stays fixated on me if we're both still here tomorrow. That fixation could be problematic, cause then it could detract from our ability to well, find scum later down the line. If getting rid of me now will lead to more productive days soon then ig there's worse than that. Not my preferred outcome but meh

If my elim is inevitable, wouldn't getting it over with ASAP best? Idk I just feel like if I'm trapped to be elimed, it'll probably better for you guys to shift your focus somewhere else as much as possible.

Lukewarm I genuinely can't see how a scumteam could look at these posts and still think I was a jailkeeper candidate and even if I wasn't the least likely to be JK, I think with the benefit of me being a widespread townread, Marci can set up the game so town is most likely to stick to the scumpool that excludes her. I don't see how anyone else would be a better claim for her to be making there.

[Lukewarm]

Can I vote Marci safely? There's 2 on Catboi and 1 on Marci rn right?
Marci scum makes so much more sense to me and I don't wanna stop myself from voting who I think is scum because of some bias I randomly thought up
If we lose because Catboi's really good at building solid cases and arguing, then that's a loss I'm willing to take, idc, but it's exhausting to act like Marci isn't the more likely scum here
Luke I'm 100% willing to take the blame for the loss if Marci's town at this point, if Catboi's scum he's played this game very well and has pocketed me perfectly

Yeah, you are safe to vote Marci

[Meuh]

VOTE:

Marci

[Lukewarm]

Tbh elim me over Catboi, that's probably better for the game, unless he's town and my read is off, but I would

NEVER

make an incorrect read

I don’t think you r scum wither way Catboi. So that vote is meh, but i’m still feeling like N_M could be town.

I mean that's understandable if you don't believe me, it's not like I'd claim it's the strongest case even if I feel it's my best lead right now.

Tbh elim me over Catboi, that's probably better for the game, unless he's town and my read is off, but I would

NEVER

make an incorrect read

You should generally never offer yourself up for elimination like this, especially when it's far from guaranteed who the wagon will be on. After all, you know you're town while anyone else is just a guess. You are right that I'm town here, but I hardly claim to be some great scumhunter, my reads are typically not great.

My main worry here is that Norwee stays fixated on me if we're both still here tomorrow. That fixation could be problematic, cause then it could detract from our ability to well, find scum later down the line. If getting rid of me now will lead to more productive days soon then ig there's worse than that. Not my preferred outcome but meh

If my elim is inevitable, wouldn't getting it over with ASAP best? Idk I just feel like if I'm trapped to be elimed, it'll probably better for you guys to shift your focus somewhere else as much as possible.

Lukewarm I genuinely can't see how a scumteam could look at these posts and still think I was a jailkeeper candidate and even if I wasn't the least likely to be JK, I think with the benefit of me being a widespread townread, Marci can set up the game so town is most likely to stick to the scumpool that excludes her. I don't see how anyone else would be a better claim for her to be making there.

I am not arguing that it is impossible for Marci to be scum. Like, I see the explanation that Catboi is putting out there. I just think it is more likely to be catboi ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[catboi]

And decides "yep, I'm going to bus here." Not_Mafia is confirmed town at this point, and is currently leading the wagon away from her partner. Like where is her risk at just saying "I'm going to trust Not_Mafia here." And if both confirmed town were on the same wagon, that would have almost certainly saved her partner without it every bringing any suspicion on to herself

But it's not like she was under any suspicion anyway. So there was no risk to bussing. And that's self-evident in how she went under the radar for an entire day. So why not bus? You don't get any extra points for finishing with both mafia alive. It's a 100% safe vote.

[Lukewarm]

@Meuh, see? I could see either as scum. And I am really looking for the one thing to tip the decision one way or the other.

[spoilr=]Can you decide for us, and I just sheep your choice? /s[/spoiler]

VOTE:

Marci

I said I would sheep you

VOTE: Marci

[Lukewarm]

@ Catboi, did we just win or lose?

[catboi]

I'm town. Assuming you didn't slowroll me earlier, we win

[Lukewarm]

Well, I am town, so great!

[catboi]

Thank you for listening to Meuh. Being willing to work with others and acknowledge your own fallibility is a critical part of this game.

[catboi]

Hope you're not trolling. Anyway, I'm off for the night

[Lukewarm]

To be honest with everyone, I was at like 50/50 on it being either catboi or Marci, but saw catboi doing a good enough job of building a case/defending himself, and decided to take the mantle of building the case/defending Marci, and then just following Meuh vote

[Meuh]

VFP makes this post right after:

I'm not CC here.
So Pear is actually town then. Catboi is flipping red here.

This is not a post scum who is bussing into autoloss makes.

I have addressed this as well... VFP making that post is the exact reason why T3 was eliminated over you yesterday. Once the cross vote happened, I admit that VFP pushed hard on you. But imo, if you think one of the scum is going out that day, then your best bet is to make sure the thread does not think it is possible for the two of you to be partners. And it came close to working. We all voted out T3 over you because of how VFP handled the end of that day. And I think that it would have carried through to getting me voted out, if not for the fact that Not_Mafia made it so clear her scum read me that everyone decided he must have tracked me.[/quote]
A slight bit of towncred on day 3 is irrelevant compared to an auto-loss on day 2 though? Like yes there are benefits to this, but unless you can explain that the towncred was worth the risk, your counter-argument doesn't mean much here.
Catboi almost got elimed at the end of the day, why would VFP allow that? No amount of towncred makes up for literally losing the game from his rber being eliminated.

[Meuh]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA PLEASE TELL ME WE WON