Newbie 2072: All Guns Blazing!! - Ended

[Val89]

In post 99 HE said, that scum!me thought as much (I have added page breaks to the following quote to make it easier to read)

my initial thoughts are that it leans scummy.

The first post that Lukewarm indicates they had a perspective switch from "Val isn't serious" to "I should take Val at face value" is post 33, where I imply that I think Lukewarm might be Not_mafia's scum buddy.

That to me says Lukewarm is over-the-top sensitive to any suggestion early game they might be scum.
{snip}
then they want to start laying the narrative that it might be coming from scum early.

My question to Val is, and has been:
Why would you expect scum!luke to behave the way you outlined in post 99? Why would I need to discredit you there? Why would I continue on that push once you explicitly said that "Not_Mafia is at E-2, we should just go ahead and make him the lim for the day rather than piviot to Lukewarm," ?

He has still failed to engage with that, or reconcile his scum read on me.

Why not just quote the very next sentence?

That to me says Lukewarm is over-the-top sensitive to any suggestion early game they might be scum. If it is obviously RVS, fine, but if there is any doubt it might be the start of a serious scumread, or might lead to one, then they want to start laying the narrative that it might be coming from scum early. I can better see why scum would react in such a manner than I can town - while a townie isn't all that worried about about a single player throwing some shade at them on page 2, if that shade causes attention to fall on an actual scum, even if it was accidental on the part of the person throwing it, then that could potentially lead to the scum team going into N1 having lost half their faction - potentially game losing for them.

Like, I know you are scum and all, this is your job; but I am wondering what benefit there is for the other 6 townies I know must be out there to sit and watch you pull this sort of thing without comment.

[Lukewarm]

So your are still saying that scum!Luke must have seen you suggest the scum team was Not_Mafia + Luke, and then saw you say that we should flip Not_Mafia first --

and I was scared that could potentially lead to me or my partner dying? So I needed to keep discrediting you?

(again, Not_Mafia is not my partner in the presented scenario)

That is the very inconsistency I am pointing towards. Thanks for helping me make that clear

[Val89]

Look. Real talk now. This stuff from Luke obviously isn't for my benefit - it's for yours; lazy-ass townie that is trying to coast this game without putting in the work or engaging with the thread.

Read Lukewarms 324; and note question he asks, and note which paragraph he is quoting from. Now actually click my 99 and read the paragraph quoted from. Pull them up side-by-side if he helps. Note what has been "snipped" from my post, and how it answers the question.

The reason this guy has double the posts of anyone else in the thread, and your eyes are glazing over after having to look at another round of this Luke v Val shit is no mistake. When you read his ISO, he wants you to see that snipped post, take the easy way out and not bother checking what is being posted.

The fact that Lukewarm has decided he can pull this sort of stunt is because not only have you let him get away with these sort of arguments all thread, some of you have even started TOWNREADING him for it. I'm not going to blame scum for being scummy, that's the game, but I feel like you lot don't give a shit about this game or something because its a newbie queue.

I said I was going to enjoy this game, but If you can't be arsed to actually do the reading and dig in, and are just going write it off as "TvT"; then start putting your votes on me and run me up to E-1 so we can move on.

[Val89]

So your are still saying that scum!Luke must have seen you suggest the scum team was Not_Mafia + Luke, and then saw you say that we should flip Not_Mafia first --

and I was scared that could potentially lead to me or my partner dying? So I needed to keep discrediting you?

(again, Not_Mafia is not my partner in the presented scenario)

No. I am saying you saw me suggest the scum team was Not_Mafia + Luke, and that in the process of reading me and discussing my bullshit claim that other town players were going to at least consider the possibility of scum!Luke + scum!Not_mafia, and the same individually, if even for a second, if even just long enough to go "LOL, what bullshit", and reactively, scum!Luke, or any scum player might see "scum + their name" and have a 'uh uh, better stamp on that' reaction.

There is no need for Not_Mafia, or anyone else for that matter, to be scum or not scum, and for my read on that slot to be serious or non-serious, for the general prncible that

a scum player might not want any sort of adverse attention on thier slot

to hold. It's not that difficult to understand. That's exactly what the sentence you 100%

deliberately

ommited from my 99 says, and you know it. Town can afford an early mislim or two, even if it hurts their game, not so with scum.

[alstroemerial]

I think Val being town makes ... Umlaut a little more likely to be scum.

This is interesting. I saw you put Umlaut in the pool of people a Val flip would give info on earlier, and I wondered if you had seen the same thing I had.

Can you explain why you think this, but beleive Lukes' alignment won't be any clearer after the flip?

My thoughts on Umlaut are that he hasn't been putting all of his eggs in the "I'm with Luke let's get Val" basket, including advocating that it could be TvT and not voting for either, but has basically said that if he had to pick he'd pick Val. This seems like a bit of hedging bets that makes a Val miselim feasible but won't make him look bad later on. Now, you might be thinking, wait, that exact same argument applies to Alstro as well. Yeah... I think in my original post I said a Luke scumflip would make me look bad, but this would also admittedly make me look suspicious. I'll give you that the Umlaut argument is pretty similar to the Alstro argument but that's my thought. In terms of Luke, it's that I think the odds of him being just absolutely tunneled town and scum are too close now with respect to Val, and if Luke is scum (which I don't think but could be), we would get that more from other places at this point.

Question for Val about this discussion of post 99. I think I'm getting confused by the semantics. Is what you were saying an associative sort of read, which is that you don't think NM is scum, but Luke being scum makes NM more likely to be scum because of the defense? I don't mean what you think now, but what your original intent in the post was.

[Val89]

Question for Val about this discussion of post 99. I think I'm getting confused by the semantics. Is what you were saying an associative sort of read, which is that you don't think NM is scum, but Luke being scum makes NM more likely to be scum because of the defense? I don't mean what you think now, but what your original intent in the post was.

It was no sort of assocative read in any manner whatsover. You remember in 2068 when I opened by saying MiniMB must be scum because she lied to us by saying she was "first!" when the mod was; and that her using a handshake emojii and the 'y'all' instead of 'you' meant she was scum? Then MiniMB seemed to take it as an actual serious scum read and you said this:

MiniMegabyte: Similarly to Cook, I haven't seen Mini before but I thought an SE would be playing differently, but maybe I'm just wrong. Posts 58-62 seemed like taking an obvious joke (25) completely at face value, and that's pretty much all we've gotten. It was weirdly defensive off of Val's joke-accusation.

And then remember how the MiniMB slot did actually turn out to be scum?

Remember when in 99 I suggested that Luke seemed also to be hypersensitive in the same way and

maybe

that might be AI (I had a sample of size of one, remember) and maybe we should talk about it? The only reason you are confused about how this is somehow dependant on it being an assocative read, or conditional on Not_mafia being scum is because Luke has been spamming the thread with noise to suggest such, and you've brought it.

It is not an assocative read. It doesn't depend on not_mafia, or anyone else, being of any particular alignment. To borrow your phrase, I was suggesting that Luke might be "weirdly defensive of a joke-accusation", that was all. Please, put Lukes' bullshit to the back of your head, read the last 3 paragraphs of 99 again, and tell me if you are still confused after that.

[Lukewarm]

So your are still saying that scum!Luke must have seen you suggest the scum team was Not_Mafia + Luke, and then saw you say that we should flip Not_Mafia first --

and I was scared that could potentially lead to me or my partner dying? So I needed to keep discrediting you?

(again, Not_Mafia is not my partner in the presented scenario)

No. I am saying you saw me suggest the scum team was Not_Mafia + Luke, and that in the process of reading me and discussing my bullshit claim that other town players were going to at least consider the possibility of scum!Luke + scum!Not_mafia, and the same individually, if even for a second, if even just long enough to go "LOL, what bullshit", and reactively, scum!Luke, or any scum player might see "scum + their name" and have a 'uh uh, better stamp on that' reaction.

There is no need for Not_Mafia, or anyone else for that matter, to be scum or not scum, and for my read on that slot to be serious or non-serious, for the general prncible that

a scum player might not want any sort of adverse attention on thier slot

to hold. It's not that difficult to understand. That's exactly what the sentence you 100%

deliberately

ommited from my 99 says, and you know it. Town can afford an early mislim or two, even if it hurts their game, not so with scum.

And I am saying that that is nonsense. I would never be upset by a Not_Mafia+Luke scum team accusation, that came on page 2, with nothing to back it up then an accusation that I was "defending my scum buddy," unless that was the the exact right team -- and I am pretty sure that is true for basically any scum player. I personally doubt I would have cared, even if it was the exact right combo.

Once you pulled away the not_mafia scum read, it makes no sense to think that it was scummy for me to step in there, or for me to stamp all over the person that appeared to want a Not_Mafia flip. (at the time)

-----

I would point everyone to my scum game: Newbie 2067

Hockey scum read me, and my response was to HARD town read him, and HARD defend him when he reached e-1 -- which very successfully pocketed him

[Val89]

I personally doubt I would have cared, even if it was the exact right combo.

And this is EXACTLY my point. You did care - you cared enough to think I was being fucking serious, and you cared enough to spend the energy you have done trying to build a scumcase on me for it.

I would point everyone to my scum game: Newbie 2067

Hockey scum read me, and my response was to HARD town read him, and HARD defend him when he reached e-1 -- which very successfully pocketed him

Are you really trying to say "Look, I can;t be scum because I'm not playing exactly as I did in my last scum game"?

When I've brought your games, I've done so pointing out where I think the similarities are closer to how you played that scum game than how you played your town games - not that you are playing a repeat of it. The important part to me is how you pushed StrangeMatter, not how you interacted with Hockey.

[Val89]

^^Nice, a scum claim

hows voting you a scumclaim from val o-o

It supports the leading reason why I am scum reading him right now -- But I am actively avoiding digging back into scum casing Val for a couple days

Since something made you change your mind and come back to it 3 hours later with a massive wallpost; do you think you might want to explain this? Seems weird you would go to all the effort of writing something as detailed, but ultimately devoid of content, as 214 without answering the simple question Marci asked; particulary if you truely beleive I had "scum claimed".

Self-imposed post limits out the window, and still no answer to this. You would think explaining "the main reason you are scum reading" someone you are actively pushing for elimination would be important, if you gueninely thought they had "scum claimed", no?

[Lukewarm]

I would point everyone to my scum game: Newbie 2067

Hockey scum read me, and my response was to HARD town read him, and HARD defend him when he reached e-1 -- which very successfully pocketed him

Are you really trying to say "Look, I can;t be scum because I'm not playing exactly as I did in my last scum game"?

When I've brought your games, I've done so pointing out where I think the similarities are closer to how you played that scum game than how you played your town games - not that you are playing a repeat of it. The important part to me is how you pushed StrangeMatter, not how you interacted with Hockey.

You are accusing me of being jumpy / overly sensitive to someone scum reading me day 1, and I am showing evidence that I am not jumpy / overly sensitive to someone scum reading me day 1...

Again, I will say that I don't believe this is anything like my push on Strangematter, so it is weird for you to mention it again, with out at least responding to that / further explaining how it is similar despite:

Spoiler: You claimed that my push on you was "self evidently" more similar to my scum play

is it more likely that we are seeing play closer to the scum!Luke D1 of this game - make an early case on an townie on very little (starting as early as post 73 in that case), then 'townlead' and ride that case all the way to the D1 mislim on force of personality? I think the answer is self-evident.

This one is just silly. My push on you this game has zero resemblance to my "push" on Strangematter that game, where I actively tried to distance myself from the elim, because I did not want it pinned on me

Me in the Mafia chat talking about how I did not want the day 1 miselim tied to me:

Okay - this is what I settled on. Backing off of Strange. Showing self doubt / doubt in my reads is a decent look for town / plus now it would make more sense for me to take a bit more of a back seat in the next push.

Me backing off of the push in the Main thread:

....

UNVOTE:

If this is strange's response to being put at e-1, it just doesn't feel like they have a partner?

Like I think that any one in this lobby as Strange's partner would have helped them come up with an angle to push

Maybe everyone I thought was scum before is actually town :/

If anything, this is much closer to the sheer confidence I had in my town game with Zyla, where I hard accused T3 of being scum on Page 2 of the thread, and then pushed him until he flipped (he was scum btw)

[Lukewarm]

^^Nice, a scum claim

hows voting you a scumclaim from val o-o

It supports the leading reason why I am scum reading him right now -- But I am actively avoiding digging back into scum casing Val for a couple days

Since something made you change your mind and come back to it 3 hours later with a massive wallpost; do you think you might want to explain this? Seems weird you would go to all the effort of writing something as detailed, but ultimately devoid of content, as 214 without answering the simple question Marci asked; particulary if you truely beleive I had "scum claimed".

Self-imposed post limits out the window, and still no answer to this. You would think explaining "the main reason you are scum reading" someone you are actively pushing for elimination would be important, if you gueninely thought they had "scum claimed", no?

The main reason I was scum reading you is that you're read on me does not seem genuine, and you do not appear to be looking at information that contradicts your read and - adjusting your read accordingly or reconciling your read with the new information, and explaining how it still makes sense

i.e. you are not actually trying to figure out the alignment of my slot (and that was at a time, when you were still claiming to be unsure of my alignment) -- You yes, you voting there, without addressing the points against your read, further supported that you were not actually working on that read.

[Val89]

This one is just silly. My push on you this game has zero resemblance to my "push" on Strangematter that game, where I actively tried to distance myself from the elim, because I did not want it pinned on me

Zero resemblence?

make an early case on an townie on very little (starting as early as post 73 in that case), then 'townlead' and ride that case all the way to the D1 mislim on force of personality

It certainly resembles it to me. Early case on me because you think my read on you "wasn't gunine" in some subjective sense; I'll let others decide if so-called 'townleading' towards the mislm of your choice is what you are attempting to do here.

You are saying that this can't be the same, because you and your scumbuddy backed off it when Strange was at E-1? I don't recall you having managed to push your case to E-1 yet, so it seems strange to offer that as as a reason this can't be the same. And by strange, I mean, desperate.

[alstroemerial]

It was no sort of assocative read in any manner whatsover. You remember in 2068 when I opened by saying MiniMB must be scum because she lied to us by saying she was "first!" when the mod was; and that her using a handshake emojii and the 'y'all' instead of 'you' meant she was scum? Then MiniMB seemed to take it as an actual serious scum read and you said this:

[snip of me saying Mini was weirdly defensive]

And then remember how the MiniMB slot did actually turn out to be scum?

Remember when in 99 I suggested that Luke seemed also to be hypersensitive in the same way and

maybe

that might be AI (I had a sample of size of one, remember) and maybe we should talk about it? The only reason you are confused about how this is somehow dependant on it being an assocative read, or conditional on Not_mafia being scum is because Luke has been spamming the thread with noise to suggest such, and you've brought it.

It is not an assocative read. It doesn't depend on not_mafia, or anyone else, being of any particular alignment. To borrow your phrase, I was suggesting that Luke might be "weirdly defensive of a joke-accusation", that was all. Please, put Lukes' bullshit to the back of your head, read the last 3 paragraphs of 99 again, and tell me if you are still confused after that.

Okay, that is helpful. My confusion came from the below part about "scumreading two players with that player in the pair"

Luke is trying to sell you the story that I am scum because I didn't - for the SECOND time - spend the time and energy pointing out in detail why Not scumreading one player means I can't be scumreading two players with that player in the pair as scumpartners when I had already done so once.

Would like to hear from Portia preferably not hammered

[Pavowski]

At the risk of derailing this conversation, I think we need to entertain other possibilities. Val points out that the Luke/Val extravaganza is allowing townies to coast, but there is at least 1 mafia out there coasting as well (unless these 2 are scum together, in which case I am quitting this site forever).

I think Zyla is coasting. I know she said RL was a factor, but I looked over her ISO -- including the posts she made this morning after checking back in and refreshing -- and I don't see her actually taking a clear position on anybody. Before yesterday, it's much the same.

VOTE: Zyla because I think you're hedging. You said you think Luke/Val is SvT but you're not sure which way. If you think there's scum on one side, you must have an opinion, even if it's only an inkling.

I am also, like Umlaut, ready to consider a policy elim on NM if others feel similarly.

And if we absolutely must settle Luke/Val today, well, we'll fall off that bridge when we come to it.

This is e-2 for Zyla by my count.

Luke, Val, (and anybody, but I especially want to invite these two to talk about something else -- I venture to say, anything else), I'd appreciate your thoughts on Zyla. If you've given them previously, well, I'll admit to being one of those who has gone a bit glassy-eyed in this crossfire.

[Lukewarm]

@Val, can you provide a full reads list?

[Val89]

I am also, like Umlaut, ready to consider a policy elim on NM if others feel similarly.

No, I bloody well don't. Policy lim him for what, exactly? Making the same Jester claim everywhere and having a reputation for quickhammering in non-newbie games?

If it's for lack of content, then it's the mods job to prod them, not for town to lim them.

And if we absolutely must settle Luke/Val today, well, we'll fall off that bridge when we come to it.

I hope it's comfortable up on that fence. Unfortuantly, and I'm not directing this specifically at you, that fence is a very good place for the second scum to be hiding.

I think Zyla is coasting.

I think the whole town is asleep at the wheel; so no, I'm not voting Zyla for something half the playerlist is guilty of.

[Val89]

@Val, can you provide a full reads list?

No. And if you or anyone else doesn't like that; vote me for it.

There is scum on open display, and 200-odd posts to sort it.

[Lukewarm]

@Val, can you provide a full reads list?

No. And if you or anyone else doesn't like that; vote me for it.

There is scum on open display, and 200-odd posts to sort it.

I mean, even if you are convinced I am scum, isn't there another scum player for you to find?

Don't you still need to be sorting the rest of the player list?

Spoiler:

Or are you not actually scum hunting this game

[Zyla]

VOTE: Zyla because I think you're hedging. You said you think Luke/Val is SvT but you're not sure which way. If you think there's scum on one side, you must have an opinion, even if it's only an inkling.

I'm leaning Val as scum, but it's 60/40 right now. Neither of them are looking good in my eyes, but it seems way too early in the thread for it to be bussing, which is honestly the only reason I think there's only one scum between them

[Val89]

Or are you not actually scum hunting this game

Scum hunting does not equal posting a reads list; and you know that, else my slot wouldn't be the only one you were directing that question to.

This disingenous behavior does nothing for your case.

[alstroemerial]

Val, please I agree that it would be helpful to get some other takes from you. Even if it's explicitly, "here's who I think are candidates for Luke's scumpartner"

Luke, I'd be curious to hear your opinion on Zyla also

[Pavowski]

I am currently of the opinion that you and Luke are both town. Maybe not the most towniest, but town. If that's on the fence, I guess I can't argue with you, but I am not resigned to voting strictly between the two of you yet.

I think the whole town is asleep at the wheel; so no, I'm not voting Zyla for something half the playerlist is guilty of.

I wasn't asking you to vote her, I just wanted your thoughts, but I guess that'll do.

Duly flagged, however, that Luke asked for your thoughts before giving me his own on Zyla.

[Lukewarm]

I directed it at you, because I realized I could not think of the reads you had other then the one on me.

I admit, I may have missed some, but thought getting a read list from you would be faster then digging in your iso for it. Did not realized you would be overtly opposed to giving a read list

Off the top of my head, Zyla, Marci, Umlaut, and myself have all given full read lists.

[marcistar]

val seems a bit more aggressive rn imo

[Val89]

No; I feel like I've done almost all the work here; and I'm not sure what you think you are acheiving by asking the slots that have already posted more than half of all the posts in the thread to post more. Between me and Luke, you've got near 200 posts to work with, and you still seem unable to take a stance.