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[CheekyTeeky]

It's scum indicative for mastina who is meticulous in her mech reasoning. We just finished a game where she had the whole scumteam in her mech spec based on her knowledge of normals. Luckily she didn't back herself and went with her play reads instead so she didn't catch scum!me.

Another piece of evidence towards scumstina is her read on me from the outset, and her reads on flea and Mega. Her PoE seems hamfisted and intentional in it's positioning as opposed to the elegant convincing posts that may be wrong but are usually logically correct.

[Titus]

100% disagree on mastina's mech being spot on. I think mastina skews balance towards town. I don’t agree with her reasoning half the time but I strongly feel this is town mastina and you're BoPing her.

[Taly]

Also, it is not lost on me that your posting implies that you townread Titus/I because you're saying that we are being "won over" by a scummer. I don't follow the conclusion you made on either of our alignments and that only reinforces my belief you could be informed.

You've yet to see my true towngame which is messy af. I believe you will see it here in all of it's shining dumpster fire glory. My progressions and pushes will make little sense and will change like the wind so I would appreciate if you could give me some room to push people until I'm satisfied they're not scum.

What does this post serve to accomplish?

Galron
mastina
Taly
Greeting
ɀefiend
House
Scorpious

If I remove zefiend that leaves 6 possible slots for scum I'll need to sort at some point. Taly and House will be particularly difficult for me because I acknowlege that I struggle to townread them generally. Taly will become clearer as the day goes on, house triggering certain reactions in me will hopefully appear at some point.

I'm watching you O_o

HAHA good luck with that ma'am

This is what I'm sceptical about.

Yes mastina's reasoning is rubbish hence why I think she's scum. Like it would be useful information if it was a given that everyone would tell the truth but that's obviously not the case in this game

life

mafia. The information would be more useful to scum as they already know that most, if not all of the town would be telling the truth and could try to reverse engineer the possible town picks/generate a believable fake claim since they'll also have more info about the setup based on what's not in the set up and what roles mafia have.

VOTE: Mastina
The reasoning there is pretty abyssmal and I don't think it wasn't thought through so I'm leaning on malicious


Also no thought into actually why someone might not share their preference even though that reason was pretty clearly laid out in our first interaction.

(And whether that (players with town preference more likely to be prs) is true or not doesn't really matter, because it is clear that i think that which means outing my preference would imply whether I am pr or vanilla.)

Just because it's

rubbish

deeply flawed doesn't mean that it's automatically scum indicative imo.

Maybe I am WIFOMing here, but if the true purpose of this was town PR fishing, would she have been so blatant about it?

And if this was just meant to get her towncred, why would she be doing this Day 1 and insisting so strongly on it.

I think this post likelier comes from town.

100% disagree on mastina's mech being spot on. I think mastina skews balance towards town. I don’t agree with her reasoning half the time but I strongly feel this is town mastina and you're BoPing her.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[House]

What's good, peoples?

[CheekyTeeky]

100% disagree on mastina's mech being spot on. I think mastina skews balance towards town. I don’t agree with her reasoning half the time but I strongly feel this is town mastina and you're BoPing her.

How do you explain away her half baked read of Flea who has given evidence contrary to her asserting fae had insufficient meta to make a judgement call on fae's alignment preference. This has nothing to do with BoP because it's not about read accuracy. It's about the intent and effort mastina is putting into the game.

If you want me to consider elsewhere please explain to me why meg is scum as I feel this is town meg.

[CheekyTeeky]

Taly you scumbutt why are you stuck in 2D?

[CheekyTeeky]

I'll also point out that mastina has recently lost two games against scum!me so she should know this is not my scumgame, otherwise she'd be townreading me ^.^

[Taly]

Taly you scumbutt why are you stuck in 2D?

2D? I haven't been F L E S H E D O U T enough for you?

[mastina]

Mastina knows my scum game, and knows I thrive more on scum because I actually find it easier to make reads as scum. I also have a pretty comprehensive wiki, which miraculously seems to have been forgotten about.

My scum games do such admittedly, but it's no secret I play for fun over form.

I'm also strong mislim bait because of my erratic behaviour and thought patterns.. the PoE seems too convenient to me and the reasoning lacks her usual convictions.

You think I didn't check your wiki, but actually, I did, clicking on this link.

In the descriptions, not once is their a statement of preferred alignment. You have your "best bits" section (which gives no inkling of your preferred alignment). You have your record there. (8 scumgames, 3 wins; 33 towngames, 19 wins.)

But nowhere is there any indication of an alignment preference in the wiki.

There's no way to tell from your wiki alone an alignment preference--absolutely none.

The only way to tell? By your statements in past games. And I said exactly the truth there:

House I think has stated his town/scum preference before, but I sadly can't remember it and he has no real wiki so I have to keep him in the pool

for now

until I track it down.

Ditto for Flea;

fae might've stated faer preference but

I can't remember it

.

I don't remember. It's NOT on your wiki, and I don't remember, so it's something I don't have the resources to know about. Not on your wiki, my memory being shit, and thus, I could not remove you from the POE.

Wait explain

Taly/Galron/Titus

town

Mastina

?

Well I'm already townreading you and Titus for a start, but Galron? Every post of his makes me lean town. 67 and 74 in particular.

While this doesn't clear Galron because it's very weak, it is supported by my thesis.

We had nine players claim town preference.

Enchant claimed mafia preference.

If we assume Enchant did not get mafia with his preference and if we assume the mod prioritized giving players their preferred alignment, then that means three players submitted mafia preference aside from Enchant.

Those players would then have needed to lie about their preferred preference.

Their options were: {not stating their alignment preference, stating No Preference, stating town preference}.

Only three players stated No Preference.

Furthermore, scum who would lie about their alignment preference are psychologically more likely to say they submitted town, both because it's the direct opposite of their actual choice

and

because they would be afraid that if they said "No Preference", it'd put them in the elimination pool.

The reason for this is that the scum did not know the full math behind my mechanical reasons for asking about alignment preference. They'd have a fear that by saying "No Preference", they could be seen as scum. After all, what do you suppose happens if there's 9 players submitting town preference, 1 player submitting mafia preference, and then 3 players submitting No Preference? If that were to be the case, then 2/3 at minimum of the players submitting No Preference would be assigned Mafia due to prioritizing giving a town preference to every town player.

If the mod gave town to every player who submitted town preference, then the pool of scum would be limited to No Preference and Scum Preference.

Scum lying about them having submitted Scum Preference in favor of No Preference gives them no tactical advantage. They're still in what they'd assume to be the scumpool.

Scum lying about them having submitted Scum Preference in favor of Town Preference gives them a distinct tactical advantage. It prevents every player who submitted Town Preference from being conftown'd and better hides them and has a higher chance of keeping them out of the scum pool.

And thus, every player who claimed No Preference is going to be town.

why would I be [probably] town, as opposed to [full] town Taly and Titus? It is stated that the particular names are important, so is personal meta involved?

Personal meta is involved, yes.

Titus would, as scum, know that stating she submitted No Preference (when actually submitting Scum Preference) wouldn't have actually done her any good. (Or so she thought.) Titus would, as scum, have thought that saying she submitted No Preference would keep her in the scumspect pool just as much as having said scum preference.

Taly

would similarly think these things. I believe his No Preference as a result, and it's actually because he submitted No Preference that I think that all No Preferences are town (because, he's not going to be lying about No Preference, and if he got town, that indicates those who truthfully submitted No Preference were basically automatically assigned town).

You're less of a certainty because you're inexperienced in comparison to Titus and Taly. You, as scum, could

maybe

not have realized that submitting No Preference wouldn't take you out of an assumed POE.

But while you're not a certainty, you're still a probability of being town.

[mastina]

And by that logic, mastina submitted town as preference, which would not auto town-bin her if I'm looking at this correctly.

True, but I am the most conftown out of anyone, and the proof?

My Wiki page.

Notice something there? Right at the top, on the right?

Prefer to be a Pro-town Player.

Prefer to be an Investigator.

You might also note?

Last Updated: 23:29, 3 July 2018 (EDT)
This page was last modified on 3 July 2018, at 22:29.

That means it's not something which I could have edited since then.

"but mastina, couldn't your preference have changed since then?"

Why yes, it could have, but it didn't, and the proof is in

literally every game I have played

where I've stated how much I

loathe

playing scum. I've not had a good scumgame since

2019

. I HATE rolling scum, and it SHOWS. I literally

cannot

play as scum, and I can prove my town preference through literally. every. game. I've ever played. Both the scumgames which show why the fuck I hate playing scum,

and

a

multitude

of towngames where I explain precisely why I hate being scum.

So while I might not be cleared by the Claimed Town Preference angle, I have something that the other eight do not have in

their

claims:
The accounting record to prove that my claim is true.

Going back to the post, to me this reads as Me and House may have stated preference, but don't have wiki's to check what we're like.

Well you don't. You have a wiki. You don't have a wiki that gives me a clear idea on preference from the wiki.

Scorpious's wiki does; Greeting's wiki does.

But yours does not.

Not all wikis are created equal; not all player histories are created equal. Scorpious's indicates at least some aversion to scum; Greeting's strongly indicates why they wouldn't pick scum. Yours gives nothing. It has games, but the records aren't clear in giving me what I was looking for.

This is funny. I made 4 posts, 2 RVS votes, one projecting doubt on the logic that was coming, and my claims.
Yume has 1 post, and it's their claims.
House has several and is being themselves, he's laid back and doesn't seem to be taking this seriously.

Yeah, and from that content, my gutread was House > Yume > Flea towniest to scummiest. There wasn't any hard logic to it. Just being in the POE and having gut instinct.

We have a PoE of 4, early D1, from a mechsolve attempt in a uPick where we don't know if someones lying or not.

That's the thing though.

We have fairly strong evidence of where the lies are.

The players stating No Preference are incredibly likely to be telling the truth and town.

Enchant stated mafia preference and if he's not scum then it means he didn't get his preference meaning three players DID submit mafia preference and lied, saying they submitted town preference.

So we know that there's 3/9 liars in the Town Preference (+Unstated) list.

So analyzing players' history to see if they are likely to be telling the truth helps narrow down the scum pool.

I would never fucking ever submit scum preference. The proof can also be found in other games where I was allowed to submit alignment preference; I submitted town every single time.
Greeting has no scumgames and only towngames--this seems like the worst possible game to decide to be scum in, and thus, is likely telling the truth about submitting town.
Scorpious's scum history is dismal but has a history as town of doing decently--this is a reasonable indicator of him probably telling the truth.

Which gives 3/6 scum in the remaining, and from that list, I developed a townread on zefiend, which narrows it down to 3/5.

[mastina]

Mastina, let's talk about Galron for a bit. Galron makes perfect sense as a Meg partner. He says next to nothing about Yume's posting but votes anyway. That feels like an obvious attempt to eliminate LHF rather than a serious push on scum.

I think you're reading a lot into a vote, that wasn't actually present in the vote.

It's scum indicative for mastina who is meticulous in her mech reasoning. We just finished a game where she had the whole scumteam in her mech spec based on her knowledge of normals. Luckily she didn't back herself and went with her play reads instead so she didn't catch scum!me.

I am in fact meticulous in my mechanical reasoning and I'm not wrong on my reasoning here.

We had a claim of scum preference--if Enchant did not actually get scum while submitting scum preference, then that requires that the mod gave 3 players a scum role instead of Enchant. This requires that there be four players who stated a mafia preference, because if there were precisely 3 or less than 3, then Enchant should've gotten scum.

We had three claims of No Preference--taking the above as true, that means that either the names stating No Preference were scum lying (and were actually scum who submitted scum preference), or that they are telling the truth and thanks to the scum quota being fulfilled, rolled town by default.

I have decent reason to believe the players in No Preference are not scum who lied, both because of who the players are, townreading them off of their content so far, AND because of scum psychology; it is far more likely that scum who submitted scum preference telling a lie would say they submitted town, because if they said No Preference, they'd be afraid of being in the POE.

As a result, the pool is those who refused to state preference plus those who stated town preference.

Mechanically, that pool of nine must contain all scum (assuming Enchant is town). (Note that even if Enchant is scum, it probably still has 2/3.)

So if the scum submitted a scum preference but either refused to state preference or lied and said town, then it follows that you can conftown players who have a provable source which backs their claim of wanting to be town and preferring it.

Greeting has it.
Scorpious loosely has it.
I definitely have it.

And thus, the pool would be 6 players for three scum.

And I have a townread on one of the players within.

Limiting the pool to five.

The logic is mechanically sound.

[CheekyTeeky]

The logic can't be sound if it all hinges on this setup taking preference into account. The game would not be allowed to run if people can effectively choose their alignment. I would rather you scrap all of the preference stuff and just play the game tbh, it's utterly nai.

[Scorpious]

100% disagree on mastina's mech being spot on. I think mastina skews balance towards town. I don’t agree with her reasoning half the time but I strongly feel this is town mastina and you're BoPing her.

With the feeling it all comes from town, do you think the logic is off here since you sometimes disagree with the reasoning?

[mastina]

The game would not be allowed to run if people can effectively choose their alignment.

Players submit normal legal roles/modifiers for town and mafia, along with optional preferences for town, mafia and vanilla, I build a normal review passing setup out of those picks

Is it possible your game has any procedurally bastard dynamics?

UPick, with some randomisation to minimise mod bias

Other:

When submitting roles players submit for both town and mafia, and can indicate a preference for town or mafia and/or for vanilla instead of power. Normal balance means there will be decent number of vanilla roles. I reserve the right to gate roles if it is the only way to get a balanced setup but I'll try to use the exact modifiers people submit if possible.

randomisation

Players are sorted into a list,

mafia preference at the top

and town preference at the bottom, and

randomised in those subgroups

. Players with

no preference

are

then added

randomly throughout the list. Vanillla preference is noted.

If there is a vanilla preference in the first 3 players those players are Mafia Goons and the rest get their Mafia PR. If there isn't then roll (1d8: 1 = 1 Mafia PR, 2-3 = 2 Mafia PR, 4-8 = 3 Mafia PR), power roles are assigned from the top and rest get vanilla.

Town power roles are assigned from the bottom skipping vanilla preference until it looks balanced and the rest are Vanilla Town.

When sorting out the balance different mafia power roles will be taken from the top of the player list working down and different town power roles will be taken from the bottom of the list working up.

Design Process

UPick Submissions:

A player may also submit a

Mafia Preference

or a

Town Preference

, and a

Vanilla Preference

if they would prefer to avoid a power role. Preferences are only that and may end up not being followed, but the role you receive will be a town power role or mafia power role from the ones you submitted, or the town vanilla or mafia goon roles presented below.

Faction Randomisation:

The player list will be randomised in such a way that

all players with a Mafia preference are at the top

and

all players with a Town preference are at the bottom

. All people with a vanilla preference will have that penciled in.

The top 3 players will be penciled in as Mafia

.

UPick considerations:

My assumption is

I will receive more Mafia preferences than available slots

, making

a Town preference very likely to be certain

. I also do not expect to receive many Vanilla preferences so I expect to be able to fulfill all of those. However, any of these are preferences and not certain. I also expect roles with gating modifiers to be easier to fit into a balanced set up, so consider that when making your submission, especially if your main desire is to be most likely to get a power role of some sort, not a particular role if you do get one.

It seems like it can be basically precisely that actually.

It's not

certain

.

But it's

very likely

.

[Titus]

100% disagree on mastina's mech being spot on. I think mastina skews balance towards town. I don’t agree with her reasoning half the time but I strongly feel this is town mastina and you're BoPing her.

With the feeling it all comes from town, do you think the logic is off here since you sometimes disagree with the reasoning?

Yes. mastina's going on the assumption that everyone who rolled scum submitted a preference for being scum when there's a random mechanic and a balancing involved. That being said, her idea wasn't all useless. People would find it difficult to come up with even more scumroles than they submitted, but there is always the chance of honesty. It's either a way to give us setup information or force scum to lie.

Cheeky is starting from the assumption that mastina's never wrong in her mechanics and it colors that read and the Meg read. The only thing Meg has done has been to oppose mastina. Because Cheeky assumes that mastina can never be wrong, Cheeky naturally TRs Meg for "standing up to scum" (that also ignores the remote S v S possibility that the fight is staged to give Meg something to talk about).

There's nothing in Meg's ISO that feels town. Galron nakedly going after LHF when a wagon forms on her is scummy. This is opposed to Cheeky outright, and incorrectly, defending Meg.

[Taly]

UNVOTE:

[Titus]

It seems like it can be basically precisely that actually.

It's not certain.

But it's very likely.

"Penciled in" language. The mod could then do whatever for the sake of balance while keeping mafia people highest.

[Taly]

titus

, tell me if this is a bad reason to hesitate on

meg

but uh

does newer scum double down on shutting off mech discussion?

i can see a reality where

meg

is coming from a town POV but explaining this outright seems rolefishy

[Titus]

titus

, tell me if this is a bad reason to hesitate on

meg

but uh

does newer scum double down on shutting off mech discussion?

i can see a reality where

meg

is coming from a town POV but explaining this outright seems rolefishy

It's something I did as newer scum and it used to be an indicator of scum before setups got to be so complex. Players would exclusively talk about mechanics as a way to avoid scumhunting. Cheeky is a smidge after that time but mastina and I aren't.

[Taly]

titus

, tell me if this is a bad reason to hesitate on

meg

but uh

does newer scum double down on shutting off mech discussion?

i can see a reality where

meg

is coming from a town POV but explaining this outright seems rolefishy

It's something I did as newer scum and it used to be an indicator of scum before setups got to be so complex. Players would exclusively talk about mechanics as a way to avoid scumhunting. Cheeky is a smidge after that time but mastina and I aren't.

i agree, i used to do that as scum tbh, just interesting to see that in a newer player.

hmmmmm

i will be frank,

meg

is a null PR read, should that dissuade me D1?

[Titus]

i agree, i used to do that as scum tbh, just interesting to see that in a newer player.

hmmmmm

i will be frank, meg is a null PR read, should that dissuade me D1?

No. It should never dissuade you, and especially not in a setup where everyone has submitted a PR. Unless scum are being heavily bussed, they are unlikely to claim VT. Doubly so when we have plenty of roleblock suggestions.

Just play it by reads.

[Taly]

Well, what reads do you disagree with?

I'm more curious about how my vote is an easy vote to make than being wilfully disected currently.

You're contesting the PoE off the basis that you're in it and not digressing into why the solve lacks conviction or has potential fallacies to it.

Hence why I prompted you to voice any discontent because I can't tell your alignment based off your current reply other than I disagree with your take on

mastina's

intentions.

VOTE: mastina

Well that was easy.
Mastina knows my scum game, and knows I thrive more on scum because I actually find it easier to make reads as scum. I also have a pretty comprehensive wiki, which miraculously seems to have been forgotten about.

My scum games do such admittedly, but it's no secret I play for fun over form.

I'm also strong mislim bait because of my erratic behaviour and thought patterns.. the PoE seems too convenient to me and the reasoning lacks her usual convictions.

The PoE is irrelevant. She's gone to some lengths to gather meta on people and generate reads.

House I think has stated his town/scum preference before, but I sadly can't remember it and he has no real wiki so I have to keep him in the pool for now until I track it down.

Ditto for Flea; fae might've stated faer preference but I can't remember it.

This is my staging point against this. Mastinas seen me at my best and worst of both alignments, and has no difficulty in reading me. If I can't pocket her, I nk her.
Going back to the post, to me this reads as Me and House may have stated preference, but don't have wiki's to check what we're like.

Go look at my wiki, I'll wait a moment.... Flea The Magician if you need the link...
It's pretty comprehensive. I need to add a couple games and clean up a little but still. There's more than enough there to work with.

Spoiler: Notes

TOWN

PREFERENCE:

mastina

House
Scorpious
Yume
Greeting
Flea the Magician
CheekyTeeky (after much resistance)
ɀefiend

NO ALIGNMENT PREFERENCE:

Taly
Titus
Galron

SCUM

PREFERENCE:

Enchant? (Not sure if serious)

PREFERENCE NOT YET STATED:

MegAzumarill

Same post, ftr. Mine and House's alignment preferences are there.

So sadly, that doesn't narrow the pool down as much as I want, but it still helps as a starting point.

It's a false start imo, and one setting up to secure the usual suspects for elimination, I know House also tends to be limbait.
The PoE is flawed. But hey lets address it based on what we have so far.
I believe this would be considered the equivilent of pissing into the wind.

If I had to go gun to my head, I'd say that in {Yume, Flea, House}, towniest to scummiest it'd be House > Yume > Flea.

This is funny. I made 4 posts, 2 RVS votes, one projecting doubt on the logic that was coming, and my claims.
Yume has 1 post, and it's their claims.
House has several and is being themselves, he's laid back and doesn't seem to be taking this seriously.
So we're left with this.

All 3 scum are in {CheekyTeeky, MegAzumarill, House, Yume, Flea the Magician};
CheekyTeeky and MegAzumarill have a high chance of being scum;
House is less likely scum;
There's 1-2 scum in {Yume, Flea the Magician};
There's basically a guaranteed scum, 1-2, in {CheekyTeeky, MegAzumarill}.

We have a PoE of 4, early D1, from a mechsolve attempt in a uPick where we don't know if someones lying or not.
Me, who has said from the start this is all subject to wifom and hasn't taken this seriously but gone with it anyway.
Yume the One-Post-Wonder
Azu who I haven't read
CT who seems to be quite into the game and sits just above null with me currently.

I struggle to make reads beyond the snap reads I can be pretty decent with. I'm confident in this one.

I'm going to be honest this post feels pretty fluffy

You're only giving reasons to doubt

Mastina's

PoE, it's hard to tell how you actually read her people in it or not in it...

And I am weary that you're deflecting from 194

[Galron]

Okay then. I guess I'll follow mastina down the garden path until I get a chance to map this out. I need to find that thread where someone was able to confer titles on people. Schadd I think.

[Taly]

hi

galron

its midnight where im at and im eating a grilled cheese sandwich with cayenne pepper in it

<3

its def a friday night... or a very, very early saturday morning

[CheekyTeeky]

Cheeky naturally TRs Meg for "standing up to scum" (that also ignores the remote S v S possibility that the fight is staged to give Meg something to talk about).

I don't know why you presume to understand my reads. I townread both Meg and Enchant from page 1 because contrary to popular belief, the way someone enters the game can be ai. I do not and never have townread someone simply for scumreading the same slot as me.