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Post Post #625 (ISO) » Thu Feb 03, 2022 10:47 am

Post by butterchurn »

Oh. I didn't understand that you meant that was the order in which people should claim, I thought that was the order in which you wanted to vote. My bad for going out of order then, I guess.
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Post Post #626 (ISO) » Thu Feb 03, 2022 10:51 am

Post by Nero Cain »

In post 587, butterchurn wrote:But I know that either you're scum
or you're town who is wrong

this is literally impossible. Even if you want to argue that you are town and Ger is scum I'm still right about Owl and Jeff.

The fact that you are trying to argue a mathematical impossibility makes you look like an obvious buddy.
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #627 (ISO) » Thu Feb 03, 2022 11:10 am

Post by butterchurn »

There's no way you seriously think that I meant you were wrong about every individual read. I was saying that your solve, which included me at the time, was wrong, because I'm town. Having one wrong person in your solve makes the solve wrong.
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Post Post #628 (ISO) » Thu Feb 03, 2022 11:11 am

Post by Nero Cain »

So if you were the only wrong read why are you against voting Jeff or Owl?
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #629 (ISO) » Thu Feb 03, 2022 11:13 am

Post by butterchurn »

Where did I say that? What? Are you just making things up now?
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Post Post #630 (ISO) » Thu Feb 03, 2022 11:14 am

Post by Nero Cain »

and even if you want to say thats its actully 2 wrong reads and that only one of Jeff or Owl is scum, why not work with me and vote out the one you think is scum?
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #631 (ISO) » Thu Feb 03, 2022 11:18 am

Post by Nero Cain »

I am voting Jeff and I think he's scum but I told the masons to pick one or the other.
In post 615, Nero Cain wrote:@Yeezy and Arhi-I won't be sheeping you on Ger. Pick one of Owl or Jeff (ideally Jeff but it doesn't matter)
Jeff or Owl has to be scum in any team you are pushing and you know it. Why are you against this today?
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #632 (ISO) » Thu Feb 03, 2022 11:30 am

Post by butterchurn »

Obviously, yes, that's true for any two people chosen out of you/geraint/jeff/owl, because only one of those 4 is town. Where are you getting that I'm not willing to vote for Jeff or Owl? I never said or implied that. You're either confused or lying. You are really making a habit out of misrepresenting and twisting my positions and it's pushing past the line of where I can give the benefit of the doubt that you are doing it with integrity. If you are town, I think you should take a step away and re-read and re-assess. If you're scum, just keep doing what you're doing because it's making it obvious.
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Post Post #633 (ISO) » Thu Feb 03, 2022 11:59 am

Post by butterchurn »

It's not even internally consistent, either.
In post 620, Nero Cain wrote:If Ger is still your top scum read why do you keep saying that you won't vote him today?
In post 623, butterchurn wrote:I assumed that we wouldn't be eliminating outside the cross toDay, since that's how ELo usually goes down, am I wrong in assuming that? I would obviously prefer to vote ger if that's on the table, I just didn't think it was.
[snip]
You are not at the top of who I want to vote, I'm not sure where you got that. I would prefer voting ger over both you and Jeff, and I would like to hear more from Jeff before coming to any sort of decision between you two.
In post 628, Nero Cain wrote:So if you were the only wrong read why are you against voting Jeff or Owl?
In post 629, butterchurn wrote:Where did I say that? What? Are you just making things up now?
In post 631, Nero Cain wrote:I am voting Jeff and I think he's scum but I told the masons to pick one or the other.
In post 615, Nero Cain wrote:@Yeezy and Arhi-I won't be sheeping you on Ger. Pick one of Owl or Jeff (ideally Jeff but it doesn't matter)
Jeff or Owl has to be scum in any team you are pushing and you know it. Why are you against this today?

How can you possibly think that I'm unwilling to vote all of ger, jeff, and owl? Are you just convinced that I've locked my vote on you despite me just saying that you were my lowest individual scumread (although now that is certainly changing)? How does this chain of posts come from town Nero? I cannot figure out a line of reasoning that he would be using here or how this thought process comes from town, it just looks like a string of wild accusations and misrepresentations that don't even make sense when you put them together.
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Post Post #634 (ISO) » Thu Feb 03, 2022 12:22 pm

Post by butterchurn »

Okay, at the risk of giving him an out if he is scum, after rereading it a bunch of times, maybe when he says "why are you against voting Jeff or Owl?" he means to say "why are you against choosing between Jeff and Owl for your vote today?", when I interpreted it as "why are you against voting Jeff, and against voting Owl?". I can kind of see how he might make those posts as town if that's what he intended to say. That's still a misrepresentation, though, because I never said anything that would indicate I was against choosing between those two, and I don't know how he came up with the idea that I did. As I said earlier, I assumed that once Nero and Jeff voted each other, we would be elimming within the cross toDay, because that's the usual procedure in ELo to my understanding. I would be more than happy to vote outside of that if possible, as I have stated already, but I didn't think that was going to happen. I'm open to the possibility of choosing between Jeff and Owl instead, but it seems weird to me to make that switch after a cross has already been established -- why does Nero get to choose two people for the masons to decide between? There's nothing special about Jeff and Owl as a pair besides that he thinks they're suspicious; there's at least one scum between any pair of two out of jeff/nero/geraint/owl.
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Post Post #635 (ISO) » Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:04 pm

Post by geraintm »

Popping in quickly, but suspicious as fudge people not posting at all in thread
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Post Post #636 (ISO) » Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:19 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

In post 635, geraintm wrote:Popping in quickly, but suspicious as fudge people not posting at all in thread
Why? Its been like this mostly all game and Owl and Jeff are scum that don't really have to do anything b/c scum win on a NL as well as a mislim. Let's vote scum, who do you want to vote Jeff, Owl, or butterscum?
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #637 (ISO) » Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:45 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

In post 632, butterchurn wrote:I think you should take a step away and re-read and re-assess
If I'm right (and we both know I am) why do I need re-read and re-assess?
In post 632, butterchurn wrote:Where are you getting that I'm not willing to vote for Jeff or Owl?
its mostly a vibe thing. I may or may not go back and quote snippets that make me feel that way. But we don't really need to go far, we can just look @ your last 2 posts ( and ) you are so annoyed and angry that I'm possibly forcing you to bus or force you to refuse to vote and pretty much out you.
But he's misrepping me.
I don't think I really am, I mean
maybe
I'm reading in a bit and saying the unspoken part outloud but if you think I'm scum then I'm just playing to my wincon and I don't see why that makes you angry and if you think I'm town and think it's a ger/jeff/owl team then why are you upset that I'm pushing scum? It's just not the scum you want and why does town you care which scum we eliminate?

But ok let me ask you point blank.

ARE YOU WILLING TO VOTE JEFF OR OWL TODAY?
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #638 (ISO) » Thu Feb 03, 2022 3:50 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

In fact, I think I'm being super generous by letting you pick which scum to bus.

I mean, I might get some kudos for figuring out the setup but figuring who is scum with 3 confirms and knowing that you only needed one mislim to win its a particularly hard difficulty setting. It's much more normal than hardcore.
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #639 (ISO) » Thu Feb 03, 2022 4:16 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

In post 633, butterchurn wrote:How can you possibly think that I'm unwilling to vote all of ger, jeff, and owl?
look how dishonest this is. Of course, you are willing to vote Ger, no one ever said you weren't. I'm only accusing you of not being willing to vote Jeff or Owl. I mean, I don't actully need you to vote Jeff or Owl as me, Ger, and the 2 masons can handle that. I just have to convince them and get them to post.
In post 634, butterchurn wrote:I would be more than happy to vote outside of that if possible
gee I wonder why...
In post 634, butterchurn wrote:why does Nero get to choose two people for the masons to decide between?
b/c im town

b/c im right

b/c I tried to vote scum yesterday while you and Jeff didn't budge and just let Scorp get eliminated. (like yes, I know I eventually voted him and I'm sure you'll bring that up) Like this game has all been very status quo. Greeting gets suspected and ran up, Fua gets suspected and ran up (it was my fault too) Scorpius gets suspected and ran up. 0 flipped scum. And you're telling me that we should just continue doing what we are doing and vote for the next guy that was suspected and run him up. Naw, we are going to switch it up and start voting for those that aren't hunting and responsible for multiple town flips.
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #640 (ISO) » Thu Feb 03, 2022 4:32 pm

Post by butterchurn »

You said that I had said that I would not vote Jeff or Owl. That was false. I get annoyed when someone misrepresents my posts consistently, regardless of their potential alignment. Saying that I'm annoyed that you're "forcing me to bus" is laughable. You have been strawmanning constantly and I do not have endless patience for that.

To answer your question, obviously yes and as I have said before I still have no idea where you came up with the idea that I wouldn't.
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Post Post #641 (ISO) » Thu Feb 03, 2022 4:32 pm

Post by butterchurn »

In post 639, Nero Cain wrote:look how dishonest this is. Of course, you are willing to vote Ger, no one ever said you weren't.
You literally did
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Post Post #642 (ISO) » Thu Feb 03, 2022 4:46 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

In post 634, butterchurn wrote:but it seems weird to me to make that switch after a cross has already been established
whine

im not sure what this cross thing is. Does he mean me and Jeff voting for each other? I'm fine with it being me or Jeff today but there's nothing that says once two people have voted that has to be the days elimination. Maybe he thinks ppl will be more likely to vote me over Jeff and that's why he wants a me/jeff vote instead of it being both of his buddies. The masons and Ger can vote whomever they like and don't have to be restricted to me/jeff.
In post 634, butterchurn wrote:why does Nero get to choose two people for the masons to decide between?
more whine

In post 634, butterchurn wrote:There's nothing special about Jeff and Owl as a pair besides that he thinks they're suspicious;
there's at least one scum between any pair of two out of jeff/nero/geraint/owl.
light defense of the two. I don't think they are suspicious, I know they are scum b/c its mathematically impossible for them to be town. Also, both of them have just sat there the entire game and done next to nothing. Jeff pushed Greeting. Owl sat on Greeting. Both twiddled their thumbs while Fua and Scorp got ran up. They are scum and its where we should be gunning for today.
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #643 (ISO) » Thu Feb 03, 2022 4:52 pm

Post by butterchurn »

Yes, a cross is when two people vote each other in ELo. In my experience (mostly offsite, to be fair, but I've seen it here too), when there is a cross in ELo, general practice is to eliminate there. Both of the people voting, from a town perspective, would have the person they are voting be confirmed as scum by virtue of the game not being over, so it is usually rare that someone would be willing to switch away from voting who is in their eyes confirmed scum. I don't really care if we follow that practice or not, but I thought that was generally understood to be how things worked. Ger thought the same, I'm not alone in this:
In post 610, geraintm wrote:we are clearly voting between 2 today. but no one should do anything until everyone checks in. and no one should have done anything
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Post Post #644 (ISO) » Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:00 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

In post 641, butterchurn wrote:
In post 639, Nero Cain wrote:look how dishonest this is. Of course, you are willing to vote Ger, no one ever said you weren't.
You literally did
no, I literally didn't

this is what I said
In post 628, Nero Cain wrote:So if you were the only wrong read why are you against voting
Jeff or Owl
?
this is what you said I said
In post 633, butterchurn wrote:How can you possibly think that I'm unwilling to vote all of ger, jeff, and owl?
nowhere did I mention that you were unwilling to vote Ger but you added that in to make it technically true. We both know you are trying hard as EFF to make the days elimination between me and Ger and you
ARE
very very unwilling to vote Owl or Jeff so in your attempt to make me look like a liar you added in that I said that you said you weren't willing to vote Ger.
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #645 (ISO) » Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:02 pm

Post by butterchurn »

????
In post 620, Nero Cain wrote:If Ger is still your top scum read why do you keep saying that you won't vote him today?
In post 620, Nero Cain wrote:If Ger is still your top scum read why do you keep saying that you won't vote him today?
In post 620, Nero Cain wrote:If Ger is still your top scum read why do you keep saying that you won't vote him today?
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Post Post #646 (ISO) » Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:06 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

In post 616, butterchurn wrote:Doesn't matter much at the moment since it looks like I won't be voting you toDay anymore
In post 605, butterchurn wrote:Well, okay, guess we're not voting Ger then.
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #647 (ISO) » Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:06 pm

Post by butterchurn »

I don't think this is productive anymore. You just keep saying over and over again "You said X, but I KNOW you actually think Y. Why do you think Y, you scum?". It's useless.

I think there's some chance you're just ridiculously tunnel visioned town who can't even see what's in front of him anymore, but it's hard to believe at this point that this level of strawmanning doesn't come from scum.
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Post Post #648 (ISO) » Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:08 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

look I get that being cornered and on the precipice of winning and losing is very frustrating. On the bright side it only takes one town vote for you to win and getting Ger to vote me or the masons to vote Ger doesn't seem like an impossible task.
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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Post Post #649 (ISO) » Thu Feb 03, 2022 5:10 pm

Post by Nero Cain »

if you were town you'd be willing to work with me to vote whichever of Owl/Jeff you think is scum but you don't seem very willing to do that.
Of all tyrannies,a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

edited c.s. lewis quote b/c limit
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