Newbie 2089 | Endgame

[TistDaniel]

For what it's worth, I think AutoDefenestrator is right: I think I would be playing very similarly to this as scum. The strategies I've been discussing probably won't come into play in this particular game, so he's right that I'm probably not giving a very large advantage to town. And he's right that this discussion might benefit me in future games.

He says I'm enough of an overthinker to try something like this. That isn't really how I see it. I was thinking I'd just play as town whatever role I got. I actually considered not reading my role PM until elimination so that it wouldn't influence my thinking. Though of course we had to read our PMs to confirm our roles, so that ended up not working out like that.

fwog says I'm probably the most consistent. As I mentioned in my first post, I did read a lot of the recommended reading for newbies. One of the articles says that being wishy-washy is a sign of scum, but I really don't think it is. Scum knows who they need to kill right from the beginning of the game. Town does not, and so their perspective should change quite often as new evidence becomes available. I personally see a consistent player as being more suspicious. If I'm the most consistent character, I think that should make me worth investigating.

[TistDaniel]

I say I'll be busy and not as active, and still end up being the most active player. ProgoWoshua, we last heard from you in post 102. It's now post 201. Where are you? Why so lurky? What are your reads?

[NorwegianboyEE]

Changing my town read of tist to scum. Post 148's word and post count is a bit too much, I just don't see the point other than to fill up posts. After a reread I'm getting lamist vibes.

VOTE: TistDaniel

I can see the perspective of "Lamistu post" but i think their posts ooze town outside of that, bith from tone and content. So eh, don’t see it.

[NorwegianboyEE]

God i make so many spelling mistakes on phone, my bad.

[TistDaniel]

NorwegianboyEE, looks like you're townreading me, ofmercia, and your vote is on Frog for the Progo scandal. Have any thoughts on other players?

[ProgoWoshua]

I say I'll be busy and not as active, and still end up being the most active player. ProgoWoshua, we last heard from you in post 102. It's now post 201. Where are you? Why so lurky? What are your reads?

I've been busy with real life the last two days, but I'll be reading everything so far and give my thoughts later today.

But for now, I don't really think ofmercia is Mafia.

[TistDaniel]

Dunnstral: what's your strategy for finding scum?

[TistDaniel]

Frog: Is this SSS something you're still putting together, or are you waiting for a certain amount of activity before posting?

[NorwegianboyEE]

NorwegianboyEE, looks like you're townreading me, ofmercia, and your vote is on Frog for the Progo scandal. Have any thoughts on other players?

Maybe later, my brain feels fried.

[AutoDefenestrator]

Dunnstral: what's your strategy for finding scum?

Sounds like something unwise to share.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Frogsterking (1) - fwogcarf
NorwegianboyEE (1) - AutoDefenestrator
ofmercia (1) - TistDaniel
TistDaniel (1) - ofmercia
Frogsterking (1) - NorwegianboyEE
KittyTacky (1) - Frogsterking

Not Voting (3) - ProgoWoshua, Dunnstral, KittyTacky

Wow. The VC is looking pretty undivided atm.

[NorwegianboyEE]

Divided*

[NorwegianboyEE]

Frogsterking (2) - fwogcarf, NorwegianboyEE
NorwegianboyEE (1) - AutoDefenestrator
ofmercia (1) - TistDaniel
TistDaniel (1) - ofmercia
KittyTacky (1) - Frogsterking

Not Voting (3) - ProgoWoshua, Dunnstral, KittyTacky

No wait there are two votes on Frog. Fixed.

[TistDaniel]

Auto: Ok, I can see what you mean. If I'm looking for wishy-washy opinions as scum, and I say so, of course scum are going to make an effort to seem less wishy-washy in response to that.

I suppose what I should say is Dunnstral: will you be doing any questioning? Will you be putting any pressure with your vote? Are you going to do vote count analysis? Or are you just going to sit quietly and hope that someone does something scummy?

[NorwegianboyEE]

My belief is that Dunnstral is going to sit very quietly and not do much of anything.
But hey, open to being proved wrong.

[TistDaniel]

Just did an ISO on Kitty, and I think he has probably given the most complete reads of everyone in this game:

In 99 he said both Frog and ofmercia seemed sus to him in the context of the Progo controversy. In 185 he said Norwe and I are probably town, and he's played a game with scum Norwe before. In 190 he said slight townlean on Auto, Dunnst is very null, but Kitty knows him to lurk as town.

Kitty's been flying under my radar, but now that I've taken a closer look, he looks like an experienced player who isn't afraid to voice opinions about other players. Leaning town on him now.

[ProgoWoshua]

Here's the game summary that I created to help me with my reads:

#1-#61 was mostly RVS ans setup discussion (which I view as NAI), except for:

• #18 - NorwegianboyEE's Town-"Newbiereads" TistDaniel, for being a newbie asking about PR play.
  #56 - TistDaniel's votes fwogcarf, for... "discouraging other people from learning how to play town roles better"?

#62 was my "slip". #62-#87 was mostly people reacting to it.

• #66 - ofmercia asks Dunnstral's opinion on it.
  #67 - Dunnstral assumes it was a joke.
  #72 - Frogsterking's votes me over it. Frogsterking's obvtown-reads TistDaniel.
  #73 - NorwegianboyEE questions Frogsterking on "consciousness of guilt slip".
  #75 - KittyTacky questions Frogsterking on "consciousness of guilt slip".
  #79 - fwogcarf, quoting #72, dismisses the idea.
  #83 - NorwegianboyEE finds it NAI.
  #86 - KittyTacky doesn't think it's a slip.
  #87 - ofmercia scumreads me because of it, and scumreads NorwegianboyEE for defending me.

#88 is where I explain my mistake, and everyone believes it. Now, everyone is discusing everyone else's previous reaction to the "slip".

• #90 - In response to ofmercia, NorwegianboyEE defends how my mistake didn't make sense as a slip.
  #93 #94 #96 - NorwegianboyEE votes ofmercia, claiming their reason for suspect both of us doesn't make sense. ofmercia explains their reasoning, and NorwegianboyEE unvotes.
  #99 - KittyTacky suspects Frogsterking and ofmercia for possibly jumping on an early wagon, also claiming their reasoning doesn't make sense.
  #102 - I don't scumread Frogsterking and ofmercia based on their reactions to the "slip".
  #103 - ofmercia insists that their previous reaction makes sense.
  #104 - Frogsterking unvotes me.
  #106 - NorwegianboyEE don't think Frogsterking and ofmercia are partners, due to their very different reactions.
  #108 - Frogsterking thinks I'm town based on #102.
  #116 - TistDaniel votes ofmercia, for trying to incide a wagon without actually voting for me.
  #137 - Dunnstral townreads TistDaniel.
  #148 - TistDaniel's wall of text. Most of it is about people responding to his strategy. There's a paragraph about ofmercia's post-"slip" reactions. Townleans NorwegianboyEE and scumleans fwogcarf for their responses to his strategy. Scumleans on ofmercia a little harder for pushing a wagon on me without talking to me at all.
  #158 - ofmercia defends their reasoning for geting imput from Dunnstral before pushing a wagon on me. But doesn't scumread TistDaniel for acusing them.
  #170 - NorwegianboyEE votes Frogsterking for being oportunistic about my slip.
  #173 - ofmercia claims that they've believe that scum had sliped, but was hoping that wasn't the case.
  #174 - NorwegianboyEE townreads ofmercia based on #173.
  #177 - Prompted by TistDaniel, fwogcarf states his townreading of NorwegianboyEE.
  #179 - Frogsterking townreads me and TistDaniel. Has a null read on ofmercia.
  #184 - Frogsterking votes KittyTacky after reading his ISO. Scumreads Dunnstral by PoE.
  #185 - KittyTacky townreads TistDaniel and NorwegianboyEE.
  #190 - Prompted by Frogsterking, KittyTacky states a slight townlean on AutoDefenestrator and a null read on Dunnstral.
  #195 - AutoDefenestrator is neutral on TistDaniel and NorwegianboyEE, and townleans Frogsterking.
  #198 - ofmercia changes their read on TistDaniel to scum, and votes for him, based on #148.

My thoughts about everyone:

AutoDefenestrator: It's the least active player overall. He only has one post that I deem relevant for scumhunting porpuses (#195), where he claims to be neutral on TistDaniel and NorwegianboyEE, and townleans Frogsterking. It's also worth noting that he's still keeping his vote on NorwegianboyEE since the RVS. I'm inclined to say I scumlean him, but it's also possible that he's just a newbie learning to play the game, so I'll grant him a null read.

Dunnstral: Once I made my "slip", It's possible for Mafia to not push a wagon immediatly, and instead wait to see if the Town would push a wagon first. However, ofmercia asked Dunnstral about his opnion on my "slip", and he responded that he didn't think it was a slip. I think that, if he is mafia, he would express suspicion or doubt once asked, to leave the door open and push a wagon later. He didn't do that, so I think he is town.

Frogsterking: I doubt Frogsterking and ofmercia are partners. Not only because of their reactions after #88, but also because having both scum to push the same mislim on Day 1 is really risky, and I don't think they would do that. I believe ofmercia is scummier than Frogsterking, so Frogsterking gets a townlean by default.

fwogcarf: He's been one of the most active players, but he posted mostly about things I deem irrelevant for scumhunting porpuses (mostly discusing TistDaniel's strategy). He only has two relevant posts: #177, where he townreads NorwegianboyEE, and #79, which is the important one in my opnion. Again, it's possible for Mafia to not immediatly push a wagon on me after my "slip", but fwogcarf went out of his way to disagree about it being a slip completely umprompted. In my opnion, he's townier than Dunnstral.

KittyTacky: His #86 post about how he don't think I sliped comes pretty late. By then, 3 other players already said they didn't think it was a slip, so this could be read as Mafia waiting to see how the town would react to the "slip" before making a move. However, KittyTacky's earlier #75 post clears him, in my opnion. There, he doubts Frogsterking reasoning to suspect me. After that, I can believe his reasons for his reads, so I think he is town.

NorwegianboyEE: I think he's town for the exact same reason as KittyTacky. At first, he question Frogsterking's reasoning, and then states that he doesn't think I sliped. I can't find a problem with his reasons for his reads, so I think he's town.

ofmercia: In my opnion #66, #67, #72 and #87 tell a story. At first, ofmercia tries to get Dunnstral to push a wagon on me. Dunnstral doesn't do that, but Frogsterking does. Seeing the opportunity, tries to give the wagon momentum without actually geting on the wagon themselves. This looks pretty scummy to me.

TistDaniel: Before I talk about him, I want to ask him something:

A lot of people have been saying that discussing town strategy is not alignment indicative, but I'm also the most town-read player (18, 59, 60, 72, 128, 137) when most of what I've done in this game is discuss town strategy.

Is (18, 59, 60, 72, 128, 137) supposed to be a list of posts where people townread you?

(18, 72, 137) sure, but NorwegianboyEE's #59 and #60 have nothing to do with you, and #128 is from the actual mod. Explain to me how you got that wrong.

[KittyTacky]

I think Tist's word count is attributable to him simply being a newbie and trying to be helpful. It would be an HMMMMM if an experienced player did it though.

[KittyTacky]

VOTE: ofmercia

I'm fairly sure this is scum. On further analysis, the Progo push really reads like scum trying to up someone early then backing down quickly once confronted about it.

[fwogcarf]

Dunnstral: what's your strategy for finding scum?

Sounds like something unwise to share.

what

[fwogcarf]

I don't fully understand why you think that would not be a good idea to share considering that dunnstral has barely even posted

shouldn't we be encouraging MORE thoughts and not LESS?

[fwogcarf]

VOTE: Dunnstral activity read

also seems like volume tells will not work in this game

thank god honestly

[AutoDefenestrator]

I don't fully understand why you think that would not be a good idea to share considering that dunnstral has barely even posted

shouldn't we be encouraging MORE thoughts and not LESS?

Discussions on how one personally identifies scum independent of specific reads on players is bad, as it'll help the (potentially newb) scum adjust faster. It sounded like a general strategy question from Tist similar to the previous ones. PR play tactic convos are okay, scumhunting tactics are better left on the side. In other words, yes, LESS.

[AutoDefenestrator]

And since someone really insisted, I'm switching to my best read now. Along the aforementioned look-at-me-I'm-town, my previous post concerning his level of investment not indicating alignment, and generally what seems to be too much focus on the wrong things, e.g. being active through methods which keep his reputation 'safe', such as strategy-discussion and more objective/neutral descriptions of what's been happening in the game.

To me it felt like a disproportionate amount of TistDaniel's initiative has been on the positive side: buddyhunting over scumhunting. It is potentially attributable to character, but felt a little out of place. I'll do a more proper & thorough re-reading of the walls of text once votes start becoming more settled, I'm going off formed impressions over exact memory right now. Oh yeah, and I don't find the wordcounts to be a suspicious thing

in isolation

either.

VOTE: TistDaniel

[ofmercia]

I think Tist's word count is attributable to him simply being a newbie and trying to be helpful. It would be an HMMMMM if an experienced player did it though.

He's not the average newbie.