Really?RW wrote:It just screams look at me and how pro-town I am and thats whats bothering me
This is true. But people who post extremely little, and the few posts they do are not helpful at all, are not at all acting protown. I agree that if scum want to get noticed they should post a lot. But at the same time, town should post a lot of they want to get noticed. To me, not being active implies that you've got something to hide. I would be much more inclined to vote for an active player that I've been getting pro-town vibes from rather than an inactive player that I haven't gotten anything from.Battle Mage wrote:People who post alot are NOT more protown. Rather, because this is a game where scum have to BE noticed, as opposed to NOT BE noticed, posting alot is something i'd expect from any half decent scumbag
Kinnie? That's... new...RossWilliam wrote:Kinetic wrote:Stop trying to throw the debate off track and down play it. This is an issue, and I'd like it if you would stop trying to just avoid it. I want to deal with it now, so that we don't have to deal with it later.RossWilliam wrote:FOSes and Antivotes help the town by alerting fellow townies to those who one thinks is scummy. Simply stating somebody is scummy does the same thing. Let's not get in a big debate about this please, it's simply a technical thing and there's no need to get off track from scumhunting
Now, you admit FOSes/Antivotes help town. That's good, but it isn't exactly the question I meant to ask. What I meant in my original question is this:
Based on the math that I provided, using FOSes and Antivotes as a gauge to help judge scummy players, can you understand why it would help town to participate, and hurt town to not participate?
Kinnie is just bummed that I'm not conforming to his little plot to make himself look pro-town.....smart move if your scum, trying to make yourself into some sort of leader for the town, that's a sure way to get votes. Sucks for you I'm not gonna play along. No antivotes for me. They're silly.
Cut the patriotic bs please. Much as you'd like to think you are God's gift to Mafia, this is a team game. Show some respect!iLord wrote:asdfasdf
If you wanted to fool around, you could've joined real MishMash game. Scumhunting is possible here and I intend to do it.SL wrote:Unvote Vote Battle Mage!
Also this game is right now basically a discussion of the meta of the game, which is not indicative of alignment at all. Alliances are the way to go. This is basically a Mish Mash game with teams.
Tbh, he pretty much did from where i'm sat. If that's not the case, please provide post numbers etc.Ilord wrote:This would've actually made a lot of sense. You made a good point about how scum must be active to get noticed.BM wrote:And i'd love to do so! First and foremost, Shadowlurker wasnt participating. Scum need to participate in order to be voted and thus, win this game. As such, him not being especially bothered about how he appears, is a towntell.
He then suggests an alliance-something that i dont think any genuine scumbag would think of, when they already have buddies, and dont want to come across looking power-hungry. The fact he went unchecked, further suggests that he is genuinely off-the-wall town.
He didn't go unchecked, however.
Except, as i pointed out earlier, i find it hard to see scum intentionally seeking alliances with protown players. It just doesn't seem like the default mentality going into the game. I'm still pretty confident that SL is town.Ilord wrote: And his recent post suggests that he has a completely different view of the situation:
Even if he is scum, the above mentaility still fits, and it fits SL better than your method thaof getting noticed as scum.SL wrote:Unvote Vote Battle Mage!
Also this game is right now basically a discussion of the meta of the game, which is not indicative of alignment at all. Alliances are the way to go. This is basically a Mish Mash game with teams.
Perhaps. But then, if 3/4 of the players are breaking a rule, i'm not going to be too worried about doing the same, if i share the same win condition as the majority. I see Ribwich as thinking he is different, and thus, not allowed to post at the start.Ilord wrote:Just because a lot of players are doing it doesn't mean that everyone knows that it is okay. I've had similar sentiments at the beginning of games or in twilight were the mod did not specify in the rules whether or not discussion was allowed.BM wrote:How is the point against Ribwich weak?
Actually, you're wrong. In my mind, they mean the exact same thing. Perhaps i wasnt clear enough the first time, hence i tried to clarify with my response. But the point is the same.Ilord wrote:"desperate to profess his town credentials" =/= "protested way too much"BM wrote:How is Kin NOT scummy for being so desperate to profess his town credentials?
How can you seriously tell me that irrationality is a bigger concern in a game where we barely hold the majority, than actually getting townies into the later rounds. I'm not buying this excuse.Ilord wrote:No, it is not ridiculous logic because by choosing Empking to advance, we're choosing who will vote in the later levels. We don't someone as irrational as Empking representing our vote. And the fact that I kept my vote does not help your point that I "blindly accepted Tajo's meta.BM wrote:Yup. That's ridiculous logic btw. It doesnt matter whether the guy who wins is a genius, or a complete idiot. If he is town, he is town-that's all that really matters. Hence my vote for SL-because i'm not sucked in by you.
Been there, done that.Ilord wrote:"Do the work for me?" No, I expect you to state how a certain action is anti-town.BM wrote:I'm noticing a trend here. When you cant argue, you expect me to do the work for you? No thanks.
Actually, i've explained each of my attacks coherently. Aside from that on DGB, which is predominantly based on gut, and natural prejudice, you have failed to point out holes in any of my other analyses.Ilord wrote:It would help if your attacks were actually valid - I'm getting the feeling that most of your attacks are just like DGB's, bad vibes. I'm perfectly fine with you voting and stating your feelings (I can't convince you to change your hunches), but trying to dress them up as if they actually had validity is obviously antitown.BM wrote:Lol, if i was trying to win a popularity contest, you think i might not have attacked pretty much every active player here, eh?
I don't generally get concerned by threats from scummy players. I can't odds it, if scum want to attack me. The fact you consider me such a threat is flattering to say the least.
Lol, i'm sorry, i didnt realise this was Kingmaker!Ilord wrote: And there's no way I'm allowing someone who is antitown to advance.
It's the only reason i can think of as feasible, if i was in his position. In fairness to him, it's not often that games are open for discussion in thread, and communication is allowed outside for anti-town groups aswell. It could've happened to anyone.Ilord wrote:That's crap logic - why would ribwich NOT post in thread as scum if he knew he could? He could easily have communicated with his scumteam and in thread.BM wrote:Actually, no. My point was that, despite the fact that the vast majority were posing, you felt that you might not be allowed to. It follows that you weren't part of a majority group, and as scum were able to communicate pre-game too, i concluded that you must've been communicating there instead.
Gee, thanks.Ilord wrote:This is actually a good point.BM wrote:People who post alot are NOT more protown. Rather, because this is a game where scum have to BE noticed, as opposed to NOT BE noticed, posting alot is something i'd expect from any half decent scumbag. Not posting atall, is far more likely to be the behaviour of townies, who are far less driven to gain popularity, and thus, win the game personally.
Yeah, Ilord is right. If anyone's scum trying to become the town leader, it's him.iLord wrote:What the heck?RW wrote:Kinnie is just bummed that I'm not conforming to his little plot to make himself look pro-town.....smart move if your scum, trying to make yourself into some sort of leader for the town, that's a sure way to get votes. Sucks for you I'm not gonna play along. No antivotes for me. They're silly.
That made no sense, especially since I started the antivotes.
Calling them "silly" is a little extreme.
The problem with this is, we arent playing Mafia. We arent trying to FIND SCUMBAGS. We are trying to FIND TOWNIES. No scumbag in their right mind will lurk, unless they want to play the WIFOM game, because the only way they will get noticed and have a chance at winning the game, is if they participate. But, i do acknowledge your point that not ALL active players are scum, and not all lurkers are town. It's merely a trend. But you really do need to remove these Mafia concepts from your mind, because they just aren't valid here.ribwich wrote:This is true. But people who post extremely little, and the few posts they do are not helpful at all, are not at all acting protown. I agree that if scum want to get noticed they should post a lot. But at the same time, town should post a lot of they want to get noticed. To me, not being active implies that you've got something to hide. I would be much more inclined to vote for an active player that I've been getting pro-town vibes from rather than an inactive player that I haven't gotten anything from.Battle Mage wrote:People who post alot are NOT more protown. Rather, because this is a game where scum have to BE noticed, as opposed to NOT BE noticed, posting alot is something i'd expect from any half decent scumbag
Over-Defensive? Is that all you got?Battle Mage wrote:wow Kinetic....
Over-defensive much?? 0.o
BM
I agree with most of this post. The last bit i dont though- much as it is considered a logical fallacy, too townie to be town, and too scummy to be scum are often good indicators. Personally, when i see someone acting 'too townie' i automatically consider that to be scummy, because somebody who IS protown, would have no incentive to spend their time making sure they look good, when their main goal is to hunt for scum. That said, this game is different, because townies DO have an incentive to try and look good, but i still think we can fairly easily determine who is building a facade, and who is actually protown.populartajo wrote:You know? I hate when BM starts posting thousand of words and makes my reread more entertaining than it needs to be.
The point is that some scum will try to look protown to win this game but some people are inherently protown. So the idea is to find out who seems to try harder and who feels natural and not "he's acting protown, so he must be scum".
I also think this applies to the other side of the coin. Protown has to act protown not scummy. So the logic that guy A must be town becuase "he doesnt post much or is acting too scummy, so he must be town" is a little ridiculous.
Its almost like too scummy to be scum and too townie to be town.
Thanks for knocking some sense into all of us.populartajo wrote:You know? I hate when BM starts posting thousand of words and makes my reread more entertaining than it needs to be.
The point is that some scum will try to look protown to win this game but some people are inherently protown. So the idea is to find out who seems to try harder and who feels natural and not "he's acting protown, so he must be scum".
I also think this applies to the other side of the coin. Protown has to act protown not scummy. So the logic that guy A must be town becuase "he doesnt post much or is acting too scummy, so he must be town" is a little ridiculous.
Its almost like too scummy to be scum and too townie to be town.
rofl!StrangerCoug wrote:Thanks for knocking some sense into all of us.populartajo wrote:You know? I hate when BM starts posting thousand of words and makes my reread more entertaining than it needs to be.
The point is that some scum will try to look protown to win this game but some people are inherently protown. So the idea is to find out who seems to try harder and who feels natural and not "he's acting protown, so he must be scum".
I also think this applies to the other side of the coin. Protown has to act protown not scummy. So the logic that guy A must be town becuase "he doesnt post much or is acting too scummy, so he must be town" is a little ridiculous.
Its almost like too scummy to be scum and too townie to be town.
Unvote: DrippingGoofball
Vote: populartajo
Did the attack you were about to make against me have to do with votes? If you have something against me and it's still relevant, I'd like to hear it. I can't defend something out of my attention.Battle Mage wrote:rofl!StrangerCoug wrote:Thanks for knocking some sense into all of us.populartajo wrote:You know? I hate when BM starts posting thousand of words and makes my reread more entertaining than it needs to be.
The point is that some scum will try to look protown to win this game but some people are inherently protown. So the idea is to find out who seems to try harder and who feels natural and not "he's acting protown, so he must be scum".
I also think this applies to the other side of the coin. Protown has to act protown not scummy. So the logic that guy A must be town becuase "he doesnt post much or is acting too scummy, so he must be town" is a little ridiculous.
Its almost like too scummy to be scum and too townie to be town.
Unvote: DrippingGoofball
Vote: populartajo
when i first read this, i was about to write a monster post attacking you, when i remembered that votes here are for people who act protown.
No, i'm just kidding around. CHILL!StrangerCoug wrote:Did the attack you were about to make against me have to do with votes? If you have something against me and it's still relevant, I'd like to hear it. I can't defend something out of my attention.Battle Mage wrote:rofl!StrangerCoug wrote:Thanks for knocking some sense into all of us.populartajo wrote:You know? I hate when BM starts posting thousand of words and makes my reread more entertaining than it needs to be.
The point is that some scum will try to look protown to win this game but some people are inherently protown. So the idea is to find out who seems to try harder and who feels natural and not "he's acting protown, so he must be scum".
I also think this applies to the other side of the coin. Protown has to act protown not scummy. So the logic that guy A must be town becuase "he doesnt post much or is acting too scummy, so he must be town" is a little ridiculous.
Its almost like too scummy to be scum and too townie to be town.
Unvote: DrippingGoofball
Vote: populartajo
when i first read this, i was about to write a monster post attacking you, when i remembered that votes here are for people who act protown.
What? That is a really big misrepresentation of what is going on...Battle Mage wrote:Lol, now you've calmed down...
I am calling you over-defensive, because after i made 1 negative comment about you, you have promptly decided that everything i say about you will be equally negative, and thus you will OMGUS me at every turn.
It's callled OVER defensive, because you are defending yourself to an unnecessary extent. You just look like a paranoid scumbag. You're tying yourself up in knots over something that doesnt warrant it, and making yourself look...how did Ilord put it? Irrational.
You're like the dumbass who points a gun in everyone's face in order to prove his innocence. It's completely unneeded, and will only result in you being strung up in the end.
BM
After i originally posted my anti-vote against you, you jumped on me. I dont really think there's anything else to be gained by discussing this. You don't want an argument, neither do i. Needless to say, my anti-vote stands, but moreso for your desperation to appease me, now.Kinetic wrote:What? That is a really big misrepresentation of what is going on...Battle Mage wrote:Lol, now you've calmed down...
I am calling you over-defensive, because after i made 1 negative comment about you, you have promptly decided that everything i say about you will be equally negative, and thus you will OMGUS me at every turn.
It's callled OVER defensive, because you are defending yourself to an unnecessary extent. You just look like a paranoid scumbag. You're tying yourself up in knots over something that doesnt warrant it, and making yourself look...how did Ilord put it? Irrational.
You're like the dumbass who points a gun in everyone's face in order to prove his innocence. It's completely unneeded, and will only result in you being strung up in the end.
BM
I mean, while I disagree with some of your points, really the only thing I had issue with when you came in the game was how you got so quickly to SL without, really, any participation from him. You explained yourself, and again, while I don't agree, I understood how you could come to that conclusion.
Your first sentence makes no sense because I wasn't even having a conversation with you when you posted the first time... How can you justify calling me over-defensive because of my reaction to you calling me over-defensive. That doesn't work. You don't bait a reaction and then use that reaction to justify your initial bait.
And the personal attacks. Really? Listen, be civil. I've blown up at people on this board for things just like that, I'm not sure, but I bet you were in those games too, and I really don't want to get into a flame war, unless that is your intention.
Of course. By jumping you, you must mean asking you to explain a very vague move on your part, for which, after you explained yourself, I dropped. But please, continue to believe that's OMGUS. You really don't know the meaning of that concept. You did exactly the same thing in Freaktown when I questioned you. Since you were voting me in that game (and subsequently anti-voting me in this one) all my questions MUST be OMGUS. They couldn't possibly be anything else, like, I don't know, fair questions asking you to explain something vague you stated. Couldn't be that. [/sarcasm]Battle Mage wrote:After i originally posted my anti-vote against you, you jumped on me. I dont really think there's anything else to be gained by discussing this. You don't want an argument, neither do i. Needless to say, my anti-vote stands, but moreso for your desperation to appease me, now.Kinetic wrote:What? That is a really big misrepresentation of what is going on...Battle Mage wrote:Lol, now you've calmed down...
I am calling you over-defensive, because after i made 1 negative comment about you, you have promptly decided that everything i say about you will be equally negative, and thus you will OMGUS me at every turn.
It's callled OVER defensive, because you are defending yourself to an unnecessary extent. You just look like a paranoid scumbag. You're tying yourself up in knots over something that doesnt warrant it, and making yourself look...how did Ilord put it? Irrational.
You're like the dumbass who points a gun in everyone's face in order to prove his innocence. It's completely unneeded, and will only result in you being strung up in the end.
BM
I mean, while I disagree with some of your points, really the only thing I had issue with when you came in the game was how you got so quickly to SL without, really, any participation from him. You explained yourself, and again, while I don't agree, I understood how you could come to that conclusion.
Your first sentence makes no sense because I wasn't even having a conversation with you when you posted the first time... How can you justify calling me over-defensive because of my reaction to you calling me over-defensive. That doesn't work. You don't bait a reaction and then use that reaction to justify your initial bait.
And the personal attacks. Really? Listen, be civil. I've blown up at people on this board for things just like that, I'm not sure, but I bet you were in those games too, and I really don't want to get into a flame war, unless that is your intention.
BM
This is actually a good point as well. Town has to be active to get noticed as well. They can't lurk either.ribwich wrote:This is true. But people who post extremely little, and the few posts they do are not helpful at all, are not at all acting protown. I agree that if scum want to get noticed they should post a lot. But at the same time, town should post a lot of they want to get noticed. To me, not being active implies that you've got something to hide. I would be much more inclined to vote for an active player that I've been getting pro-town vibes from rather than an inactive player that I haven't gotten anything from.
Alliances because he doesn't think this game is Mafia is not the way to go. I merely stated my distaste at his opinion on how to play this game.BM wrote:Cut the patriotic bs please. Much as you'd like to think you are God's gift to Mafia, this is a team game. Show some respect!
We anitvoted him.BM wrote:Tbh, he pretty much did from where i'm sat. If that's not the case, please provide post numbers etc.
I'm pretty sure SL's mindset (judging from his post) is one of apathy for the Mafia element in this game. I couldn't easily see scum or town walking in with that mindset, but since SL obviously had, I see no indication that it means he's town. He thinks it's a Mish-Mash game, and so he's using a completely different Mish-Mash mindset.SL wrote:Except, as i pointed out earlier, i find it hard to see scum intentionally seeking alliances with protown players. It just doesn't seem like the default mentality going into the game. I'm still pretty confident that SL is town.
That's horrible logic! How does alignment relate to whether or not a player is allowed to post? Are you saying that ribwich knows that town can post, but doesn't post because he's unsure of whether or not scum can post? That's ridiculous!BM wrote:Perhaps. But then, if 3/4 of the players are breaking a rule, i'm not going to be too worried about doing the same, if i share the same win condition as the majority. I see Ribwich as thinking he is different, and thus, not allowed to post at the start.
But to everyone who can't read your mind, they don't. And yes, I understand your reasoning behind your point now.BM wrote:Actually, you're wrong. In my mind, they mean the exact same thing. Perhaps i wasnt clear enough the first time, hence i tried to clarify with my response. But the point is the same.
Because the townies in the later rounds have to be able to think and vote logically, as they decide who will move to the next round. If we choose an irrational player, then he may easily vote mafia into the next level as we are helpless to watch.BM wrote:How can you seriously tell me that irrationality is a bigger concern in a game where we barely hold the majority, than actually getting townies into the later rounds. I'm not buying this excuse.
I have acknowledged some of your points as valid. However, many others stand with what I believe holes and stand without you being able to prove to me that they are points.BM wrote:Actually, i've explained each of my attacks coherently. Aside from that on DGB, which is predominantly based on gut, and natural prejudice, you have failed to point out holes in any of my other analyses.
Antitown =/= Mafia. You're not acting in a protown manner, and your illogical thoughts will not ably represent our vote in the later stages, regardless of alignment. I'm antivoting you with the same theory as I am antivoting Empking.BM wrote:You seem awfully quick to claim i am scum, with what amounts to speculation, and no real evaluation whatsoever. I wonder why that is...
I could think of something that is way more feasible - he could've genuinely be unsure whether or not anyone was suppose to be posting. If you look at his posting style, he isn't exactly the most confident or outgoing person.BM wrote:It's the only reason i can think of as feasible, if i was in his position. In fairness to him, it's not often that games are open for discussion in thread, and communication is allowed outside for anti-town groups aswell. It could've happened to anyone.
My opinion on this has actually changed - see Empking's theory and below.BM wrote:Gee, thanks.
The mindest is different yes, but certain points are still valid. As in the fact that the Mafia still must seek to emulate the town in order to win. And in which the best mafia players will actually be doing that. I still agree with you that a majority of the active mafia have realized that they must be active in order to get votes.BM wrote:The problem with this is, we arent playing Mafia. We arent trying to FIND SCUMBAGS. We are trying to FIND TOWNIES. No scumbag in their right mind will lurk, unless they want to play the WIFOM game, because the only way they will get noticed and have a chance at winning the game, is if they participate. But, i do acknowledge your point that not ALL active players are scum, and not all lurkers are town. It's merely a trend. But you really do need to remove these Mafia concepts from your mind, because they just aren't valid here.