Open 861: The Turing Test [game over]

[Radical Rat]

Dear God, this whole "I don't get scumread" thing is insufferable.
I don't think it's necessarily scummy, because the same thing happened somewhat in Terminator, but it IS obnoxious and makes the game way harder to follow for anyone else.


Anyway,
VOTE: Greeting
Ignoring the actual substance of posts in favor of superficial "tells" is probably as scummy as it's gonna get D1.

[Loki Dokie]

So apparently analysing and voting

Roden

should be my priority now. Let's look at his ISO.

Roden

is emotional when town, hates being wrongly accused, fiercely fights back when wrongly accused.

Roden

is much colder when scum.

This shouldn't be hard.

His game start was... bad. I know that he tends to get eliminated Day 1 really often and he's limbait pretty much though. That's why I wanted to cut him some slack and give him a chance to prove himself and why I consciously decided to ignore his pre-existing 4 posts when I joined the game. Nonetheless, it also does feel like a convenient excuse to not make an entrance and sneak back in the game only once it's started.

I noticed that

Loki Dokie

is being unusually aggressive in pursuing

Roden

for essentailly a naked vote in 188. The justification being that:

VOTE: Greeting

I did a meta dive and based off of that, I think he could be scum here.

So you checked my random town game and decided that whatever it is doesn't match to what I'm doing here?

Mission failed successfully.

If I’m somehow wrong on you, vote Roden. He has never wrongly sr me in any game ever. He’s one of those players like Mastina who never srs me as town.

This sounds like a very highly personal read and apparently un-outed alts are involved too, so it's also not provable. Sorry

Loki Dokie

, but on the surface this is a bad reason to push a read so strongly. That is a minus for scum

Roden

in my books actually.

Still,

Roden

's attitude towards this game doesn't seem very towny.

Posting just to say I'm not lurking, I've been dealing with a crisis with a friend and I'm more focused on that atm. I'll respond to stuff later tonight.

roden not actually following up feels pretty significantly +scum equity

Ngl I opened up the browser when I got home, quoted the Loki post, and then just smoked and went on youtube for a few hours instead

What game were we both in where I was scum? Or is that just a general read?

Where's the scumhunting energy? All I see is never ending excuses for why there is none.

This post is kind of scummy, Hedgeyness is often a scumtell, My reasoning for voting Roden is bad but he isn’t actually townie either. Like wtf?

VOTE: Greeting

[Loki Dokie]

I need to take a break for a while, but this is a reminder to myself to look into

Roden

's scumread of

furtiveglance

.

Didn’t you say in 425 that you didn’t think Roden was scumhunting?

[Dannflor]

exceedingly fine with a Greeting wagon

Roden, who are you town reading?

[Greeting]

Wow. I just came back. The current push on me is so utterly horrible that I'm not sure if I even want to address it. I play like a robot, scumread someone for tone from a scumread page and try to read the thread carefully to err my mistakes?

I bet my ass there is scum on it. There's five of them after all.

I guess I understand them though. Eliminating a mafia today would mean that town only needs two points to win, and that puts them in a horrible position. So they'd rather put their necks out for LHF like me, because then they'll just manipulate the pairings with low posters.

Not going to waste my time arguing with this shit push, let's get to work.

[Loki Dokie]

Wow. I just came back. The current push on me is so utterly horrible that I'm not sure if I even want to address it. I play like a robot, scumread someone for tone from a scumread page and try to read the thread carefully to err my mistakes?

I bet my ass there is scum on it. There's five of them after all.

I guess I understand them though. Eliminating a mafia today would mean that town only needs two points to win, and that puts them in a horrible position. So they'd rather put their necks out for LHF like me, because then they'll just manipulate the pairings with low posters.

Not going to waste my time arguing with this shit push, let's get to work.

If the push on you truly is this “horrible, then why tf wouldn’t you want to address it? If the reasons are bad, debunk them then but all of “this push on me is bad, scum on my wagon” etc, without addressing literally any of it, is really not compelling.

If this actually is in fact a “shitpush”, I think you should be able to explain why.

The push on Kitty otoh actually is bad because he hasn’t actually done anything scummy but first you call RR a “potential deep wolf” for something entirely nia, hedge on Roden and then accuse him of making “excuses” for apparently not scumhunting and then want to look at his furtive case, he made BEFORE furtive unvoted him. Meanwhile, you haven’t argued why any of the reasoning for voting you is bad.

[furtiveglance]

I was never voting Roden, I was voting Vivax.

[Loki Dokie]

ok let's say I am wrong about you.

who would you like to kill and why?

VOTE: Furtive

Furtive just misrep'd my play in a past game to justify his scum read on me. What makes it egregious is that we already had a conversation about this game before and doesn't have an excuse for suddenly not remembering the game correctly now.

How long has everyone been playing? Outta curiosity

I used to play a lot but it’s probably been about ~3 years since I did last. My home website went the way of the dodo sadly

A little over a year, but the last time I played in the newbie queue was back in September.

Did I see you fakeclaim Tracker in a game?

I did actually, in Newbie 2070.

Postgame got a bit heated in that one, LOL.

A bit yeah haha, it was a rough spot for town.

He also misread me really badly that game and mindlessly tunneled me. Scum reading me this game before I really do much of anything shows a lack of reassessment or even any caution in making the same mistake again.

I was just chatting about the game in which you fakeclaimed Tracker, it's not why I scumread you.

Oh sorry, I guess I mistakenly assumed that from this post.

[Loki Dokie]

384

[Greeting]

Wow. I just came back. The current push on me is so utterly horrible that I'm not sure if I even want to address it. I play like a robot, scumread someone for tone from a scumread page and try to read the thread carefully to err my mistakes?

I bet my ass there is scum on it. There's five of them after all.

I guess I understand them though. Eliminating a mafia today would mean that town only needs two points to win, and that puts them in a horrible position. So they'd rather put their necks out for LHF like me, because then they'll just manipulate the pairings with low posters.

Not going to waste my time arguing with this shit push, let's get to work.

If the push on you truly is this “horrible, then why tf wouldn’t you want to address it? If the reasons are bad, debunk them then but all of “this push on me is bad, scum on my wagon” etc, without addressing literally any of it, is really not compelling.

If this actually is in fact a “shitpush”, I think you should be able to explain why.

The push on Kitty otoh actually is bad because he hasn’t actually done anything scummy but first you call RR a “potential deep wolf” for something entirely nia, hedge on Roden and then accuse him of making “excuses” for apparently not scumhunting and then want to look at his furtive case, he made BEFORE furtive unvoted him. Meanwhile, you haven’t argued why any of the reasoning for voting you is bad.

Fine. I am analysing

furtiveglance

right now, but if you really want me to explain my actions deeper then here you go.

I don't play like a robot. I understand that it's said for the purpose of a mafia game, regardless of whether

furtiveglance

is town or mafia, but I actually find this borderline offensive and I'm not going to dignify it with a response.

I stand by my

Radical Rat

read. In my experience, this is a player who is a deepwolf and I interpret the coded speech as a mask they wear to mask the awkwardness of having to write their first posts in a game. Being mafia is stressful, you need to watch your words much more than when you're town. Not only not to give yourself out, but also voting out a mafia is a lot more harmful to the mafia team because of their lesser numbers. Their response to my accusation was that they stopped the coded speech (354), and immediately went on the counteroffensive (355, 450), while dismissing the importance of my tell instead of even acknowledging it. Before you ask why I think

RR

is a potential deepwolf - the best answer I can give is gut/observation.

You're playing an extremely offensive (as in, the opposite of defensive) game and from what I've gathered, the core of your read on me is based on my entrance post. You might argue that you've caught inconsistency in 452, but chronologically your suspicion and even vote of me of me predates that post, which means that this isn't scumhunting, but looking for arguments to support an already pre-existing thesis. That's not how logic works, and the timing of your current vote suggests you're just riding the wave of suspicion on any townie you can find.

And I worry more about my reads being correct than consistent. If they're not, it means I reevaluated.

All in all, this is a shit push and the scum amongst the three of you have a lot to gain from miseliminating me today as it may not be possible for town to hold you accountable for this later in the game.

[kutiplz]

Hi I had the worst migraine yesterday but I'm here and I'm catching up.

What is the roden case for the wagon?

[kutiplz]

Hiya hes, shes, and they

Second non hydra game on here let's gooooo

Oh, I know you from MU. We played together there. Welcome to MS.

Wait who are you

[kutiplz]

Wait the case on roden was that they were emotional?

[Vivax]

Wow. I just came back. The current push on me is so utterly horrible that I'm not sure if I even want to address it. I play like a robot, scumread someone for tone from a scumread page and try to read the thread carefully to err my mistakes?

I bet my ass there is scum on it. There's five of them after all.

I guess I understand them though. Eliminating a mafia today would mean that town only needs two points to win, and that puts them in a horrible position. So they'd rather put their necks out for LHF like me, because then they'll just manipulate the pairings with low posters.

Not going to waste my time arguing with this shit push, let's get to work.

If the push on you truly is this “horrible, then why tf wouldn’t you want to address it? If the reasons are bad, debunk them then but all of “this push on me is bad, scum on my wagon” etc, without addressing literally any of it, is really not compelling.

If this actually is in fact a “shitpush”, I think you should be able to explain why.

The push on Kitty otoh actually is bad because he hasn’t actually done anything scummy but first you call RR a “potential deep wolf” for something entirely nia, hedge on Roden and then accuse him of making “excuses” for apparently not scumhunting and then want to look at his furtive case, he made BEFORE furtive unvoted him. Meanwhile, you haven’t argued why any of the reasoning for voting you is bad.

Fine. I am analysing

furtiveglance

right now, but if you really want me to explain my actions deeper then here you go.

I don't play like a robot. I understand that it's said for the purpose of a mafia game, regardless of whether

furtiveglance

is town or mafia, but I actually find this borderline offensive and I'm not going to dignify it with a response.

I stand by my

Radical Rat

read. In my experience, this is a player who is a deepwolf and I interpret the coded speech as a mask they wear to mask the awkwardness of having to write their first posts in a game. Being mafia is stressful, you need to watch your words much more than when you're town. Not only not to give yourself out, but also voting out a mafia is a lot more harmful to the mafia team because of their lesser numbers. Their response to my accusation was that they stopped the coded speech (354), and immediately went on the counteroffensive (355, 450), while dismissing the importance of my tell instead of even acknowledging it. Before you ask why I think

RR

is a potential deepwolf - the best answer I can give is gut/observation.

You're playing an extremely offensive (as in, the opposite of defensive) game and from what I've gathered, the core of your read on me is based on my entrance post. You might argue that you've caught inconsistency in 452, but chronologically your suspicion and even vote of me of me predates that post, which means that this isn't scumhunting, but looking for arguments to support an already pre-existing thesis. That's not how logic works, and the timing of your current vote suggests you're just riding the wave of suspicion on any townie you can find.

And I worry more about my reads being correct than consistent. If they're not, it means I reevaluated.

All in all, this is a shit push and the scum amongst the three of you have a lot to gain from miseliminating me today as it may not be possible for town to hold you accountable for this later in the game.

I like this post. Could see myself voting RR today.
I wonder if Kuti would agree.

[Vivax]

Vivax seems less witty than usual.

Nothing to say on the actual substance of Vivax's posts?

There's not much of it. The thing with

Vivax

is he likes to troll around. In this game he seems to be more invested and defensive, which I think for him is a bad sign.

Do I?
I believed I had many faces in games. That's the point of playing it isn't it?

[furtiveglance]

Vivax seems less witty than usual.

Nothing to say on the actual substance of Vivax's posts?

There's not much of it. The thing with

Vivax

is he likes to troll around. In this game he seems to be more invested and defensive, which I think for him is a bad sign.

Do I?
I believed I had many faces in games. That's the point of playing it isn't it?

This reminds me, Greeting shading Vivax without showing a desire to vote them makes me happy with both as scumreads.

[Radical Rat]

Their response to my accusation was that they stopped the coded speech (354), and immediately went on the counteroffensive (355, 450), while dismissing the importance of my tell instead of even acknowledging it.

355 wasn't a "counteroffensive" until your response was bad. I actually found myself agreeing with a lot of your not-me reads, and asking for elaboration was me trying to find out if you were Town seeing the same things, or scum making things up, not an attack on you by itself. By handwaving away both the actual content of my posts, and of Vivax's, it gave the impression that you weren't actually engaging in good faith, and that's when I began scumreading you.

And I did acknowledge your tell, with 354 which you haven't directly addressed. I stopped the gimmick after it caused issues with readability, but before you called me scum for it. If I were using it to hide as you claim, people struggling to read me through it would be a good thing, not a reason to stop.

I still don't think it would be a "tell" either way, but it would make more sense to push it in that case.

[Radical Rat]

Also, most likely any wagon we make will have scum on it. With five scum it's absurd to think that they'll all defend each other and vote in blocs, especially when this setup has a strong emphasis on getting towncred early. "Scum on my wagon" is not an effective defense here.

[Vivax]

Vivax seems less witty than usual.

Nothing to say on the actual substance of Vivax's posts?

There's not much of it. The thing with

Vivax

is he likes to troll around. In this game he seems to be more invested and defensive, which I think for him is a bad sign.

Do I?
I believed I had many faces in games. That's the point of playing it isn't it?

This reminds me, Greeting shading Vivax without showing a desire to vote them makes me happy with both as scumreads.

You have ulterior motivations for scumreading me. I rarely see mafia alignments do that actually.

[Greeting]

So,

Roden

scumreads

furtiveglance

for behavior from Newbie 2095. That was a fun game, where I pushed both of them off the hill. I think grudges could be in play here when it comes to

furtiveglance

's push on me, but that's just a side observation.

In Newbie 2095,

furtiveglance

got straight to work almost instantly. When pleasantries were over, around page 4, he started making early reads. By post 195, he had a full readslist. After that, he was very dedicated to the town cause.

In this game, his ISO is dominated by single, short posts, which give little insight as to what is his intention. It's more like just... loafing around. His reads are shallow, seemingly in random places. Earlier in the game,

furtiveglance

, attempted to question

Aristeia

(275, 276), which resulted in

Aristeia

making a very towny, accurate observation post (374) which made me townbin her almost instantly. Interestingly enough, in spite of all the questioning,

furtiveglance

did not react to 374 at all. This points slightly more towards mafia

furtiveglance

, as the mafia explanation for this is that this wasn't genuine scumhunting, but putting on pressure for the show.

Now, as for what

Roden

claimed, I do see some merit in this claim. Looks like he pre-determined

Roden

's alignment early on, and did not substantiate the claim (192).

Roden

does have a tendency to play more on the defensive than offensive. Still, the reaction on

Roden

's part is slightly exagerrated - but fits overall his emotional playstyle. It's like one of those things that slip away unconsciously. People may point out that you're emotional, you're trying to be more calm, but a slight overreaction on the side still happens from time to time. This works in

Roden

's favour here though.

(The post I am referring to is 252. The argument presented is like really unfitting too, because

Roden

is one of the most pocket-wary players I've ever played with on MafiaScum.)

Interestingly enough,

furtiveglance

never voted

Roden

despite claiming he's scum and yet he points out the same about me and

Vivax

. The argument itself is fair, but its usage in this context is manipulative. Here's the post in question.

This reminds me, Greeting shading Vivax without showing a desire to vote them makes me happy with both as scumreads.

He also goes to great lengths to pocket people. To the point where it looks ironic.

What I find probably the most weird is that

furtiveglance

literally lost a game of mafia to me as town and didn't use a single argument from that game to support his supposed scumread of me. Not sure about others, but I would definitely remember to use that kind of meta.

This is a much better and more convincing case than

Radical Rat

to be fair.

furtiveglance

's ISO is chaotic and erratic, and does not have the level of insight he showed in Newbie 2095.

VOTE: furtiveglance

[Greeting]

Side note, but

furtiveglance

flipping red does not townclear

Roden

. This could very well be s/s. Still, if that is the case,

furtiveglance

is the weaker link here.

[Greeting]

Hiya hes, shes, and they

Second non hydra game on here let's gooooo

Oh, I know you from MU. We played together there. Welcome to MS.

Wait who are you

My username on there is West. I didn't play many games there, like 4 at the most.

[GuiltyLion]

gonna wait for a VC but I'm on board with the Greeting wagon and will vote there provided I'm not hammering. I agree with what RR & furtive are picking up on and calling out. every Greeting read and justification feels fake to me, people have touched on it a few times but Greeting's justification for scumreading/voting RR is bad - it feels like Greeting thought they could push RR over the early game gimmick and is ignoring any/all reasons to consider the gimmick NAI. I don't know if I have the right words/energy to describe it in detail but the way they continue to justify it in 459 feels rote, everything is built on the assumption that only mafia would pretend to be a robot in order to hide their alignment and Greeting isn't showing any self-awareness or doubt about the key assumptions in there (namely 1. town wouldn't pretend to be a robot, 2. the purpose of the character was to hide uncomfortableness).

454 feels like an AtE survival post, also why does Greeting see themself as LHF, in my last game with them they were widely townread and NK'd because they weren't limmable.

Also, I didn't like this either:

I know that he tends to get eliminated Day 1 really often and he's limbait pretty much though. That's why I wanted to cut him some slack and give him a chance to prove himself and why I consciously decided to ignore his pre-existing 4 posts when I joined the game.

feels over-explainy and self-conscious over not commenting on Roden on entry.

Speaking of, I TR Roden, not at a bet-the-game-on-town tier but enough to not want to lim there today
UNVOTE:

[GuiltyLion]

I like this post. Could see myself voting RR today.
I wonder if Kuti would agree.

why do you think that post comes from town and not scum?

and why did you bring up Kuti specifically?

[GuiltyLion]

actually I also just noticed that this:

I consciously decided to ignore his pre-existing 4 posts when I joined the game.

is dissonant from this:

I am not sure why Roden is a leading wagon considering he has barely said anything. If it's a pressure wagon then fine. But he hasn't said much.

if you consciously ignored his posts, why did you feel the need to say you're not sure why he's a wagon? like I get possibly wanting to cut Roden some early game slack and not join the wagon, but you actually defended him here moreso than just ignore the situation. and if you were truly like "I'm not going to try to read anything into his posts at all", then you definitely should not have been questioning a wagon on him