TM2012: Scummies 2011.5 - Let the credits roll!

[T-Bone]

That's the one we gave to Fonz right? It was a 1-shot cop.

Theam, who did you vote to give your scummy to? I haven't seen that answer from you yet.

[Lost Butterfly]

Day 3, Votecount 4

theamatuer (1) - Kublai Khan

Kublai Khan (3) - MagnaofIllusion, Zar, T-Bone

Zar (1) - DeasVail
T-Bone (1) - hitogoroshi

Not voting

(5): xRECKONERx, BBmolla, theamatuer

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch or no-lynch.

Deadline:

June 13th at 7:12 PM (EDT)

Countdown to deadline

: (expired on 2012-06-13 19:12:13)

[Kublai Khan]

@KK – I’d certainly like you to give your actual list of who is scum at this stage sometime soon.

I've... done that already. theamatuer, BBmolla, Zar (prob), xRECKONERx (poss).

theam: strongly doubt that theam and Ajax could be partners. If Ajax was looking for a way out of his lynch, it seems unlikely he would hop onto a buddy.

What? Why?

theamatuer was simply the next biggest wagon. You think that if theamatuer was a scum partner, Captain Ajax would vote for someone else or not vote at all? Voting for an also-run up scum partner is a great distancing ploy.

BBMolla, still waiting to hear why you picked Quilford over MoI.

Coinflip.

Scum.

Why was Quilford killed anyways? The only reason seems to be because of the PR.

Quilford was obv-obv-town. Re-read Day 1. He created the "Let's lynch Captain Ajax" crusade from scratch.

@hitogoroshi - Your T-Bone vote is bad and you should vote better.

I feel a bit stronger on Theam at this point. Theam was scummy from Day 1.

KK got progressively scummy as the game wore on.

Too much happenstance on Theam over the course of this game leans my vote on him. He plays incredibly scummy all game, as has been pointed out despite being the Ajax counterwagon Ajax didn't try to get him lynched very hard, and him being in Group 2B and scum managing to nightkill another award recipient, it's hard to not see Theam as scum.

I don't get that at all. How is it possible that I got scummier by responding to MagnaofIllusion? He made a case on me, I pointed out that it was faulty because it's built on the sandstone of confirmation bias, then I voted the person that I said I was going to vote after MagnaofIllusion said his group was done. What part of my actions are scummy? Your vote holds no justification.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I'd still like to discuss the 2B thing as a contingent plan. MoI, what are your thoughts about someone in that group being scum, since Quilford was killed with a scummie?

I think it is impossible to tell honestly if there is a member of that group that is scum or not. Thanks to Captain Coinflip and TheAm claiming to split with Hito / Magua and those statements lining up with the QT discussion (from the posts in thread) we really have no way to conjecture. Now had all four members said “I gave it to MoI” then we’ve to something to chew on.

That reminds me … I need to review the order of claims made about who voted for who at a later date.

--

It's a jailkeep.

See now I want to lynch you out of spite for not giving it to me. Yes, I’m about half serious in this statement.

--

I've... done that already. theamatuer, BBmolla, Zar (prob), xRECKONERx (poss).

@TheAm / BB / Reck

– he thinks you are scum. Vote for him to prevent him from pushing mislynches on you!

@hitogoroshi - Your T-Bone vote is bad and you should vote better.

Agreed. He needs to vote you.

[T-Bone]

Your Day 2 play was full of nothing but arguing with MoI. That's scummy. You flooded the thread with arguments as opposed to trying to make something constructive. A little bit of arguing I understand is natural to the game, but it pretty much defined your play last day phase, and it continues to more or less define your play. Your first post in Day 2 was really the only post you made that wasn't bad. I explained why I found you to become scummy as the game wore on.

[Kublai Khan]

Your Day 2 play was full of nothing but arguing with MoI. That's scummy. You flooded the thread with arguments as opposed to trying to make something constructive. A little bit of arguing I understand is natural to the game, but it pretty much defined your play last day phase, and it continues to more or less define your play. Your first post in Day 2 was really the only post you made that wasn't bad. I explained why I found you to become scummy as the game wore on.

That's false. And misleading considering Day 2 wasn't a typical mafia day (what with all the judging going on).

I explained why I thought theamatuer and BBmolla were scummy. I wrestled with whether or not xRECKONERx was scummy. You're over-looking all that because the overall Magua question was hanging over the whole day. I gave my reasons for voting Magua. Voted. Then retracted when MagnaofIllusion bitched. Then re-voted. Nobody I expressed scum-opinions on bothered responding to anything I posted. MAYBE YOU SHOULD NOTE THAT. Instead you just looked at who I was replying to, let your eyes glaze over, and are now making a lazy sheep vote.

[MagnaofIllusion]

That's false. And misleading considering Day 2 wasn't a typical mafia day (what with all the judging going on).

That's right ... Day 2 you shouldn't have made cases and tried to lynch those players you suspected. Nope you should have just dropped a vote on Town like you did and avoided posting as much as possible

Can we please just lynch this pile of scumminess?

[BBmolla]

@TheAm / BB / Reck – he thinks you are scum. Vote for him to prevent him from pushing mislynches on you!

lol

Posting to tell you I can't reread till this weekend.

Just want to wait until everyone has scumreads on me, then I'll have more incentive to post.

(But really I have work for 24 hours)

[MagnaofIllusion]

The brand-spanking new KK is scum case

–

1. Terrible voting record

Here’s a summary of every one of KK’s votes this game –

Post 20 –

VOTE: theamatuer
1) OMGUS
2) policy
3) xRECKONERx-buddying

His only vote Day 1 is made in RVS.

Post 494 and Post 565– His Day 2 votes for Magua, split up when I beat him about the head voting before all judging groups were complete.

Post 585 – Day 3’s herp-a-derp back on TheAm.

That’s it. Aside from Day 2 where he slid right onto the obvious choice for the day (and on Town FTR) his vote has been stranded on TheAm the entire game. This moves into the next point …

2. Complete lack of actual scum-hunting.

Let’s examine the scum-hunting that KK has done to support his TheAm votes.

I’ve already posted a link to 20 and his original RVS vote for TheAm. Clearly it’s RVS since none of the three points are actual scum-tells. So let’s examine the supporting scum-hunting he did to support keeping said RVS vote on TheAm and support making his Day 3 vote on TheAm again …

Post 153 –

theamatuer - has yet to post anything pro-town.

Yup, this is the next mention of his thoughts about TheAm as they related to TheAm’s alignment (not using TheAm to attack others like he did with Quilford in Post 133). Yup, he’s saying absolutely nothing. And as already addressed he didn’t move his vote to either of the players (Quilford or Reck) he called scum in said post 153 (and we have already addressed how he back-tracked on those being actual scum reads which further demonstrates he’s scum).

Now let’s examine Post 165. Why you ask? Because here he does an PBPA ISO of BBMolla to specifically show that BB is scummy. No vote for BBmolla or hint of a TheAm similar case. That’s of course because he’s scum faking it as opposed actually scum-hunting.

Now onto Post 210 –

What? I uncovered theamatuer-scum & Quilford-scum. My efforts are not appreciated.

What a cheeky fucking scumbag we have here. Notice he uncovered TheAm ‘scum’ with an RVS vote and did nothing with it. And here he is calling obv-Town Quilford scum since his partner Ajax had yet to flip.

And that is the entirety of his scum-hunting on TheAm related to Day 1. What you say … there was none? That’s why he needs rope.

Post 429 – Now Day 2 we get the closest to actual scum-hunting from KK regarding TheAm in the following …

theamatuer is a wildcard. He's been absolutely useless. I mean, I know he's a VI, but 219 is ridiculously bad. Plus he's the only one that asked for a claim, then seems to honestly consider it to be valid (310). So it's the age-old question of "dumb or scum?"

And what’s most funny is that he’s not even willing to commit to TheAm as scum. He fence-sits calling him a VI and wildcard. Note that he calls Post 219 ridiculously bad without bothering to actually explain why.

Then in Post 471 we get KK asking TheAm to replace out. Here’s a question for you … if you think a VI player is scum do you ask them to replace out for a competent teammate to take the slot making the job of lynching scum more difficult? Mull that over while you read the rest of the case on KK …

And that’s it for Day 2. Where is that case again? No-where to be seen.

Day 3 opens with another vote for TheAm with no support at Post 585.

He lays a ‘TheAm was lazy Day 2’ attack on at Post 596 (that I agree with from the standpoint that TheAm was a useless bastard about the Magua lynch).

Yup … that is the absolute extent of his scum-hunting on TheAm. I’ll summarize his case for you …

1. RVS
2. TheAm is a VI
3. TheAm didn’t fight Magua’s lynch hard enough.

That’s it. Hard to believe Town-KK has parked his vote on TheAm for basically 2 full game days based on that.

I could do the same and analyze his ‘Magua’ suspicions if necessary. But I think this is enough for the moment. He’s not actually scum-hunting but instead flailing on defense.

3. Captain Ajax links (yes, this is copy / pasted from my first case)

From Post 133 we have the following chainsaw defense of Ajax in attacking Quilford –

Well, the thing is. You mention that Captain Ajax is attempting to buddy to xRECKONERx by flattering him (Post 67) which is a hell of a stretch. But theamatuer blatantly states "OMG its reckoner. He's like a legend." but that gets no reaction from you at all. Except after the fact where you mention that pretty town due to the enthusiasm involved.

The rest of your analysis in Post 4033077 seems to just another episode in a series of "Let me interpret anything said as a sign of scuminess". For fun, could you analyze MLK Jr.'s "I Have a Dream" speech for scumminess?

Here he is trying to handwave away suspicion of Ajax by Quil as an effort to just find scummy things as opposed to specifically addressing why posts (such as 125) were wrong. He also tries to portray Quilford as inconsistent for his disparate treatment of Deas and Ajax ala buddying.

Next in Post 153 we get the following read on Ajax –

Captain Ajax - His hitogoroshi vote was horrible. Both times. Overall though, he's not setting off any alarms.

The essence of fence-sitting. He points out behavior that he dislikes (the hito votes) but says that Ajax isn’t ‘setting off alarms’. No comment that he’s actually Town. It’s the perfect springboard to go any direction.\

That is the full extent of his Ajax interactions. Some attempts to defuse the wagon but nothing concrete at all regarding making an alignment commitment or showing posts from Ajax that showed Town / Scum intent.

As for Ajax’s interactions with him? None at all. KK does not merit a single mention in Ajax’s entire ISO.

4. His reactions to pressue and his reaction to being called out by my teammates –

Read points 3 and 4 from Post 492 if you need this point to convince you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So read the above.

If you have a problem with it tell me why in reasons that aren't batshit insane.

Otherwise hang KK.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be LA from 4:00pm EDT today until Monday morning for my usual weekend family duties.

Something that’s been in the back of my mind and I want to discuss before I die …

Judging QTs and Movement …

Group 1A – Reck,

Quilford

, T-Bone,

Captain Ajax

,

MoI

Group 1B – Hito,

Magua

, Zar, Theam,

Fonz

Group 1C – KK, BBMolla, DeaVail

Group 2A -

MoI

,

Quilford

, T-Bone and Zar.
Group 2B - TheAm, hito, BBmolla, and

Magua

Group 2C – KK, Reck, Deas

The make-up of these groups points directly to the probability that the groups were not randomly determined. Why you say? Because the fact that we don’t have more mix-up in the groups Day to Day. Here are the changes to the groups total from Day 1 to Day 2 that are NOT based on removals via death.

Reck – moves from 1A to 2C
Zar – moves from 1B to 2A
BB – moves from 1C to 2B

That’s a nice little rotation. And if you buy into the concept that scum can’t be put in position to control any group then we have the following possibilities eliminated as far as scum-teams are concerned –

KK – BB
KK – Deas
KK – Reck
Reck – T-Bone
T-Bone – Zar
TheAm – hito
TheAm – BB
Hito – BB

I think looking into VCA and dayplay and you can really narrow down the possible partnerships further.

[DeasVail]

Why KK is Town

-First, the town-tell. This is probably the weakest of my reasons because it may actually not be a town-tell, but it could be a towntell and it's certainly not a scumtell.
-His explanation of why the towntell makes him town is way too overt for scum. Scum would not be likely to do it because it would be perceived as scummy, especially not in this case because I would be likely to defend him if he was under real pressure and he wasn't actually in much danger of being lynched at that stage anyway. BUT, it's not scummy because town often think about what they've done that is townish of them and would not hesitate to talk about it, whereas scum would wait for town to defend them.
-His scumslip accusation at Reck. I've often thought people have made scumslips when they haven't actually looked much like scumslips to anyone else. This is not something I'd expect from scum.
-His asking for my alignment preference. The only reason for him/his team to do this as scum is to hopefully get me to have a townread on him. After I've already called him town because of the towntell, this is a very unnecessary move.

[DeasVail]

Theamatuer- Probably town, but why did you have a townread of Magua? What did you think of the scumreads on him?

[Zar]

Zar

Q:

What was the purpose of 92?

Actually I'm going to answer this question with another question: What is the purpose of this question?
(BTW: the answer to your question should be evident in that post (92). When you figure it out, come back and let me know, ok?)

-189 is fake.

^Explain.

-Barely any attempt shown to read Ajax, which is odd considering he was such a big wagon and Zar actually said he didn't like Ajax's contributions. He focuses on other players more.

^ Unfortunately for me, Ajax flipping scum and me barely commenting about him isn't exactly shining. If there is anything I can say in my favor about your accusation here, is that you are acknowledging that I was focusing on other players, which should at least show that I was contributing in the scum-hunt even if I ended up analyzing elsewhere.

-340 a last attempt to bus considering Ajax is going to be lynched?

^ Uh, no. A reading of the rules to verify if it was possible to start the game with a scummie.

-His inclusion of himself in his analysis and later justification of it is scummy.

^ How?

-What I've already said about his posting regarding my reads.

^ Oh and I stand by it. They are vague and useless.

-Also, I've been thinking about this one, and I think that if Zar really thought theam was scum when he voted for him, he would have actually questioned the theory of Ajax-scum clearing Zar rather than just going with it without much attempt at considering the possiblities.

^ I don't understand this part.

Q:

Why do you feel the need to discredit me?

^ I don't feel the need to discredit you, I find your contributions suspicious and I have given out the reasons why. Do you want me to go over them again? I want to add to that finding bizarre that many of your questions are oriented in assessing other people's impressions of you over scum-hunting.

Q:

Why am I a weaker scumread than KK?

See 519.

[DeasVail]

You could have said that 92 was a joke of sorts in response to Fonz's 91, but you missed out on that opportunity for townpoints.

Dismissing my suspicion of you as a tantrum indicates a need/desire to discredit me.

[DeasVail]

Zar:

Since you have started attacking my reads, how does my posting in response compare to:

a) What you'd expect from scum?
b) What you'd expect from town?

[Zar]

That’s a nice little rotation. And if you buy into the concept that scum can’t be put in position to control any group then we have the following possibilities eliminated as far as scum-teams are concerned –

I don't think it's a good idea to rule that possibility out. I think scum would gain little benefit of acting against town will in the Judging QTs, since, were they majority within a category:

1) forcing a non-consensus would make them obvscum.
2) forcing a pro-scum role would also make them obvscum.

[DeasVail]

I agree with 691. What led you to come up with that, MoI?

[Zar]

Zar:

Since you have started attacking my reads, how does my posting in response compare to:

a) What you'd expect from scum?
b) What you'd expect from town?

What?

[DeasVail]

It's pretty straightforward I think.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Deas

– I see Post 686. Suffice it to say your list can be summed up as follows –

1. Town-tell. Don’t buy said explained tell.
2. WIFOM junk.
3. WIFOM junk.
4. Asking about you alignment? Um, whut?

Yeah given you have said not one thing to dispute my post explaining his scumminess I’ll declare our discussion at an end regarding KK.

--

I don't think it's a good idea to rule that possibility out. I think scum would gain little benefit of acting against town will in the Judging QTs, since, were they majority within a category:

1) forcing a non-consensus would make them obvscum.
2) forcing a pro-scum role would also make them obvscum.

I really don’t care whether you think it is a good possibility or not to be frank.

This is a 10-3 set-up. 10-2 Mountaineous is balanced. 10-3 is not.

All possible Town Power-roles are controlled by QT. Giving scum complete control of the destination of any Power-role via controlling the secret votes is poor game design / management. For example … say scum controlled group 3A Day 1 via a 2-1 distribution. They could control the destination for said scummy regardless of what Scummie was chosen and automatically give it to their partner. They further have access to a second group’s information to possibly manipulate said Scummie to prevent Town from using it (via Nightkill or manipulating it to a Scum member in 3A if possible). That’s giving scum the possibility of controlling / eliminating 2/3rds of the possible Power-roles from Day 1 when Town can still possibly mis-distribute the third.

The game as it stands is more difficult than normal 10-3 Power-role set-ups as it requires an additional level of accuracy in not only lynching but also in effectively distributing the available Power-roles. Further allowing scum to possibly control 2/3rds of the Day 1 Powerroles isn’t good game design.

I can make all sorts of arguments via statistics that further show it unlikely. But the fact that they chose 5-5-3 instead of 5-4-4 tells me that the distribution was NOT 100% random. As is the make-up Day to Day of the Judging QTs that showed minimal movement of players.

[Lost Butterfly]

Prodding xRECKONERx

[xRECKONERx]

I'm here, I'm queer... and I'm hungover. Not posting today.

[Zar]

Zar:

Since you have started attacking my reads, how does my posting in response compare to:

a) What you'd expect from scum?
b) What you'd expect from town?

I'd expect a player of any alignment to argue against their own lynch by any means available.

I also don't really understand the question (I'm pledging ESL). Are you asking me whether your responses make me see you more likely to be scum or town?

[Zar]

What? Why?

theamatuer was simply the next biggest wagon

. You think that if theamatuer was a scum partner, Captain Ajax would vote for someone else or not vote at all? Voting for an also-run up scum partner is a great distancing ploy.

I went to the thread to check this.

This is the vote count before Ajax voted theam:

Day 1, Votecount 7

Captain Ajax (5) - MagnaofIllusion, hitogoroshi, Quilford, DeasVail, BBMolla

theamatuer (2) - Kublai Khan, The Fonz
Gaoth (3) - Zar, T-Bone, xRECKONERx
hitogoroshi (1) - Captain Ajax
BBmolla (1) - theamatuer

Not voting

(1) : Gaoth

No. theam wasn't the next biggest wagon. Ajax was the one who made it the biggest wagon. Before his vote in 194, theam, Gaoth and Molla were all at 2 votes. The Gaoth slot at the moment had been rising but Ajax was very much defending it, so you can argue that putting his vote there was not going to help him succeed in fostering a counterwagon to his own. I don't think this is a case where Ajax voted his buddy to distance, he just picked the wagon he had been focusing to look consistent on an attempt to survive.

See LB's subsequent vote-count.

Day 1, Votecount 8

Captain Ajax (4) - hitogoroshi, Quilford, DeasVail, BBMolla

theamatuer (3) - Kublai Khan, The Fonz, Captain Ajax
Gaoth (2) - T-Bone, xRECKONERx
BBmolla (2) - theamatuer, Zar

Not voting

(2) : Gaoth, MagnaofIllusion