Good vs Evil, Law vs Chaos Reboot - Game Over, Good wins

[mastin2]

Mastin: I'm absolutely disgusted you would even CONSIDER tactically replacing out of a game.

Hence one of the reasons I didn't.

For the record, I also was flying blind day one--I knew I was CE, but I did NOT know who my partners were, as it was not in my PM and I didn't look at the QT long enough to see their names: just long enough to see that I had no daytalk.

It led to my reads being quite legitimate all of day one, since I really had no clue who was scum at all, to the point where I was praying I wasn't too right. As it turned out, I was right about *my* teammates, more or less, but not so much on the other team, as is typical for me.

And, yes. As you can tell by my delayed response: I HAVE NO ACCESS ON WEEKENDS, GUYS, AND GUESS WHEN YOU STARTED THE MASSCLAIM? Yeah, on a weekend, when I did not have access, so by the time I came in on Tuesday, I was last. Nothing strategic about it. I just wasn't around.
That said, the rest of Feysal's points were actually quite valid, as noted in our QT. Anyway, my nearly-empty psuedotown QT. As noted in my true QT, I'm not that disappointed in losing. I'm admittedly disappointed in the

speed

I lost, yes, but as Tammy said, there probably was little I could have done to change her mind.

Mina was killed because she was the most confirmed town other than Feysal, who I could kill with getting away with--I didn't want to have to deal with the "Feysal was NK'd and he suspected Mastin, and was about to investigate him!" accusations I thought would come up. In hindsight, considering that Feysal's PR-paranoia was false, and the town woulda known that once chesskid was outed, shoulda killed him knowing there was no way to overcome his (justified) confirmation bias. But I had no way to know chesskid would be outed as scum on the last day.

[Junpei]

I knew I was CE, but I did NOT know who my partners were, as it was not in my PM and

I didn't look at the QT long enough to see their names

: just long enough to see that I had no daytalk.

Wow... that's pathetic Mastin. You'd do good not to ever do this again.

[Pine]

Actually, there's some significant advantages to not knowing who your scumbuddies are, especially on your first day. You can't give off genuine relational tells that way. That's part of the reason why Mods require players to confirm their role, to ensure that people aren't leaving their role PM unopened until Night One.

[Shadow1psc]

Cool, given the amount of room town had to manoeuvre I'd say this was mostly balanced. They had some strong prs but could easily get screwed in terms of mislynches, so yeah.

Also me and Seacore are currently working on ADWD Mafia (HINT HINT SEACORE)

/pre-in

Loved the game. I voiced my only real concern in a PM concerning early game results, though I assume that's the goal to balance things out. You mentioned it, you can risk outting yourself just to shoot yourself in the foot and not further your own team. I enjoyed the game though.

[mastin2]

Was the mod's fault, anyway--you really, REALLY should put someone's scumbuddies inside of their role PM, and it's even better to include what their roles are. I read my role PM, and could easily confirm every single detail in there--but nowhere would it be required for me to acknowledge who my scumbuddies are, something which (thanks to the mod not including it inside the actual PM) is something I only would learn about by looking at the scum QT.

Overall, I do think that the LG town earned the victory. Obviously, I'm disappointed in it, but it certainly wasn't just given to them. It was hard-fought, and the sacrifices they made were quite noble, and I was quite frankly disgusted with the CG's apathy and reluctance to return the favor.


That said, though, I think that our scumteam from a theoretical standpoint was less balanced than the LE. It worked out in the end, but...The full cop was in our town, and we had no way to stop it other than to kill it, with a doctor potentially hindering us--we didn't have the roleblocker. The role we DID have turned out to be quite helpful, and the situation never came up because we took out the doc early-on, but still, I kinda feel like optimal balance woulda been to have us with the roleblocker and the LE with the watcher; it'd fit better as well, considering the LE had to go against a CG tracker. Overall, the game was still balanced, I'd say, considering the town's strength was nicely balanced against the scum's, but still...why WAS the roleblocker LE rather than CE? PR-wise, it meant that the LE-CG balance was slightly scumsided (half-cop, half-doc, and a tracker, vs a roleblocker), whereas our balance (full cop, half-doc, and a fairly-worthless-rolecop vs watcher) theoretically seems townsided, whereas half-cop, half-doc, tracker vs watcher and full cop, half-doc, and rolecop vs roleblocker seems to work out better. At least in my mind; am I not seeing something?

[Oversoul]

Yay.

Since I got berated in the QT and in the thread when I claimed my actions, what would have been the appropriate Doc play in this game?

I already gave my reasoning for not protecting Shadow1psc but apparently it was still bad?

I had never played as Doc before so I didn't know the general procedure on who to protect even in a normal non 2 town game.

[Junpei]

I think it is your duty as a player to know your mafia team. I know it is an ADVANTAGE, an unfair advantage which should be frowned upon.

Also Mastin you should be glad that the full cop which BOTH scumteams wanted dead was in your opposing town. If the other team had shot Pine, they would have furthered your win con too, you would have doubly furthered yours.

[Faraday]

I think it is your duty as a player to know your mafia team. I know it is an ADVANTAGE, an unfair advantage which should be frowned upon.

^ agree. Saying 'it's the mods fault' is a bit of a fucking cop out.

[Tierce]

I think it is your duty as a player to know your mafia team. I know it is an ADVANTAGE, an unfair advantage which should be frowned upon.

^ agree. Saying 'it's the mods fault' is a bit of a fucking cop out.

This.

mastin, it's poor sportsmanship not to get all the info you should have as scum. Don't blame the mod for it. If you don't know, ask. It's almost as bad as not reading your role PM, because with what you did, you are effectively negating town any opportunity they might have of nailing your partners/you via relational tells. Yes, it's a tactical advantage, but it goes against the spirit of the game.

I'm really disappointed you did that, and the plans for the tactical replacement too.

[Zdenek]

Having actually seen players tactically replace out and other players threaten to do so, and get no heat for it at all. I think the Mastin hate here is a bit much.

[Zdenek]

fucking grammar.

[mastin2]

I wasn't using the mod's lack of having put the names in there as a justification of having done it. It's something mods SHOULD do, but that was meant as a separate point.

But I really don't see what the issue was with it--it's not like it did me any good. If anything, it actually hurt me. Unlike "I haven't read my role PM", I couldn't exactly claim in-thread "Guys, you're wrong! I didn't even KNOW my scumbuddies 'til night one, so all your stuff about me and my scumbuddies on D1 is worthless!", now, could I? The only people who knew were my scumbuddies and the mod, so there was no way the town would know that I hadn't known, so there's nothing to have deprived them of.

There was some advantage in me having not known, but there was also an equal amount of disadvantage, in that a chance in reads (which happened!) would be far more noticeable, along with giving me no guarantee that I'd have avoided the problem (which I really didn't--I was suspicious of both my partners on day one, fitting into my classic scum meta of double-bussing, EXACTLY what I had hoped to AVOID via me not seeing who I was partnered with). In other words, it's just a gambit, one which has some reward if it pays off, but has serious risk if it doesn't (and it didn't).

[Faraday]

Having actually seen players tactically replace out and other players threaten to do so, and get no heat for it at all. I think the Mastin hate here is a bit much.

well I would also give them hate. so. it's not a mastin thing it's a FUCK YOU ALL thing.

[Seacore]

Yeah, I should have put it in the PMs. I didn't think it was a big deal because I had expected all three of each team to post in the QT and discuss tactics. But I'll do so in the future.

[Shadoweh]

Yes, assuming we would talk to each other was apparently your first mistake. It doesn't seem either team knew who their power role was until the next night. >_>

Awh, mastin your post makes me all giddy inside. It was hard to be motivated when my scum partners kept replacing out or uhm.. power lurking. Droopy Dooooog! By the time we had CHESSKID it was way too late for me to pull back.

[Pine]

Pine: Well, you did a good job of helping your side, but overall, your play was pretty much harmless to us. On the one hand, all your actions were helping your side--you tied up the LE roleblocker, your targets were mainly CG, and you did manage to nail the last LE, which of course is the main contribution you've had to screwing my side over. I think it's quite evident if you look at your play overall that you really didn't present much of a threat to us, and why you were constantly kept around as a potential mislynch until yesterday where the claimed roles helped clear you.

I suppose overall, your play in the game was excellent, but only for your half. When it comes to the grand scale, that means that in contrast to Regfan (who was a huge threat to us) and Shadow (who was a large threat to us), you were pretty much harmless to me. Had you investigated me like I quite frankly was expecting you to (really, Pine? You get cop and YOU DON'T INVESTIGATE THE GUY WHO WROTE THE ARTICLE ON COP PLAY?!?), or even listed me in your potential investigations (rather than Tammy and Haze), things would have turned out differently.

I had a Townread on ManiacalLemon, and I had other targets I was more interested in.

You don't investigate people you already have reads on. You investigate the ones you need new information from.

[Tierce]

I wasn't using the mod's lack of having put the names in there as a justification of having done it. It's something mods SHOULD do, but that was meant as a separate point.

But I really don't see what the issue was with it--it's not like it did me any good. If anything, it actually hurt me. Unlike "I haven't read my role PM", I couldn't exactly claim in-thread "Guys, you're wrong! I didn't even KNOW my scumbuddies 'til night one, so all your stuff about me and my scumbuddies on D1 is worthless!", now, could I? The only people who knew were my scumbuddies and the mod, so there was no way the town would know that I hadn't known, so there's nothing to have deprived them of.

There was some advantage in me having not known, but there was also an equal amount of disadvantage, in that a chance in reads (which happened!) would be far more noticeable, along with giving me no guarantee that I'd have avoided the problem (which I really didn't--I was suspicious of both my partners on day one, fitting into my classic scum meta of double-bussing, EXACTLY what I had hoped to AVOID via me not seeing who I was partnered with). In other words, it's just a gambit, one which has some reward if it pays off, but has serious risk if it doesn't (and it didn't).

That's no excuse not to know.

You're part of the informed majority. You chose to play while deliberately hampering yourself on information. For example: if you had been lynched on D1, your buddies couldn't ever be caught by legitimate relational tells, because your reads on them were actually genuine.

You played D1 as a Serial Killer while you were Mafia. That is not obeying the spirit of the game.

[Seacore]

I don't think it's quite so bad as that. I've seen games where, despite being given the other scum, a player forgets it during Day 1. Your argument is a slippery slope, should scum players be forced to look at their PM and clarify their buddies before each post?

[Tierce]

I've seen players who try to forget they are even scum (see callforjudgement). It's not the same thing--at the beginning of the game, you should be fully aware of what your alignment, your role and all associated powers are. Deliberately avoiding getting this info at the beginning of the game is underhanded.
IMO, it's a matter of ethics, not of whether it's advantageous/disadvantageous for the player/faction doing it.

[chesskid3]

Ethics schmethics
when replacing in if I don't ahve the pm and i'm bored I often read the thread before I get my pm so

[chesskid3]

whatever first posts I make are not alignment based some of the time

[TiphaineDeath]

Great game guys, Sorry I got myself power lynched, I'll work on that next time. Very fun, would be quite happy to play in a seacore game again .

[greenknight]

Well, just looked through the scum QT and regardless of the criticism over his tactics I'd like to thank Mastin for keeping detailed notes in the scum QT after his partners were dead, it's always an interesting read.

Surprised to find out that my flavour police cover-argument for lynching Shadoweh actually worked, we'd all assumed in the dead QT that CE had figured out that I was a PR but really I just got killed because I was onto Mastin.

[Justin Timberlake]

Yeah, well played greenknight.

[Oversoul]

Junpei, this is constructive criticism and I mean this in the nicest way possible, but you have to realize sometimes that you are wrong. Your arrogance really does get the better of you. :\