Mini 1349: Words with Scum (Game over!)

[Lady Lambdadelta]

but you are also a far too analytically inclined player to not only totally ignore my plan (I.E: Not give a point by point rebuttal that I expected from you)

The main reason why I try and avoid arguing with you is the same reason why I try and avoid arguing with religious people.

You blew your flip and collect on a silly idea, and if worse comes to worst, and you don't come around, you can play the game however you want and I won't bother trying to stop you. I'm confident the likes of Magna, Aurorus, Amrun, Ice, whisper etc. are sensible enough to see your plan is rubbish, so I don't have to try and convince you.

I'm betting you'll get a Z.

Do you mind not being a self-righteous prick?

You were the same fucking way in PYP Mafia. You refuse to listen to anyone else because you are so FUCKING CLEARLY SUPERIOR, RIGHT?

I won't be spoken down to by someone like you.

[Hoopla]

If it's any consolation, I actually think your entrance to the game was kinda townish, but we're not going to agree on anything theory-wise. Lets just leave it there. I'm happy to watch others rep my points or yours or whatever.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

If it's any consolation, I actually think your entrance to the game was kinda townish, but we're not going to agree on anything theory-wise. Lets just leave it there. I'm happy to watch others rep my points or yours or whatever.

Yeah, I'm sorry I bit your head off.

As long as we can agree to disagree, I'm fine. I'm just not going to put up with another PranaDevil.

Also, I still think you're scum for what I outlined before. Entirely independent of our spat. Especially since this is feeling a lot like an appeasement.

[IceGuy]

I agree with Hoopla regarding LLD.

---

Let's do some analysis before taking anything, shall we?

A is useless.
B is in Bodyguard, Neighborize, and Roleblocker.
C is in Cop, CPR Doc, Watcher, Commuter, Doctor, and Letter Cop.
D is in Hider, Weak Doc, and Doctor.
E and F are useless.
G is in Vig, PGO and Bodyguard.
H is in White Mage, Hider and Share.
I is in Hider and Vig.
J is in Jailkeeper and Ninja.
K is in Weak Doc, Jailkeeper, and Tracker.
L is in Letter Cop and Letter Steal.
M is in White Mage, Commuter, and Strongman.
N is in Neighborize and Ninja.
O is in Cop, PGO and Voyeur.
P is in Cop, CPR Doc and PGO.
Q is useless.
R is in CPR Doc and Roleblocker.
S is in Letter Steal, Share and Strongman.
T is in Watcher and Tracker.
U is useless.
V is in Vig and Voyeur.
W is in White Mage, Weak Doc and Watcher.
X, Y and Z are useless.

C is obviously the single most important letter. Nobody but the most towny players shall touch it.

Other important letters are D, H, I, M, O, P, T and W.

B and to a lesser degree G, N and R are the letters that do the least damage in the hands of scum.

That said,

Flip: A1

What we should do is:
- Everybody flips one letter.
- We distribute the non-useless letters between the most towny and scummy people. If necessary, force scummy people to take an useless letter.
- The people left over (because some of the flips will be useless) who are "in the middle" take blindly.

Everybody who took without flipping claims

IN THEIR FIRST POST AFTER THE NEXT MODPOST.

[whispersilk]

Whisper

– please link me to your last completed Scum and Town games please.

Sure, but I'm not sure how much good it will do. I haven't played a game in since last year, and I think my last 5 or so games were mostly lost when the site went down. Most of them don't go further than about 6 pages.

I think this was my last completed town game, and I think that Redemption large themed game that we both subbed into as scum was my last completed scum game, but I can't find it.

[whispersilk]

I want to suggest a rule.

All players should flip and collect the same tile in the same post.

I.E, If you want to flip tile E2, you must collect E2 in that same post.

Further, I want to lay down a policy of not collecting unflipped tiles.

Basically, my reasoning is that I don't want people collecting unknown letters. That will ensure people are locked down into claims later, AND let us track the scum fucking up our Night Actions etc.

The other reason for flipping+taking at the same time is so that scum cannot co-ordinate their letter taking. With 9 town to 3 scum, if people are taking letters without looking at them, there is a higher chance town will develop more usable abilities.

So basically:

1) You may not take an unflipped tile
2) You may not take a tile you have not flipped.
3) You must take a tile in the same post you flip it in.

Comments? Questions? Concerns?

While I agree with some of your reasoning, I don't agree with your methods. If there is going to be a set of guidelines that we all follow, then everyone has to be in agreement before we move forward. You can't just demand that everyone follow your rules without clearly outlining what everyone has to do going into night 1, and what your plan is ultimately going to achieve, and even then, we all should have a chance to talk it out, fix any flaws before people start flipping tiles. The fact that you suggested a plan is not bad, the plan itself is poorly thought out and I don't see how it's going to help the town. If structuring a plan for the tiles is the way to go (and I think it is), there could be a better way of doing so.

Before

anyone else flips/takes a tile, I'd like to hear thoughts on a potential tile massclaim and then following the tiles being flipped, we all decide who ends up with which roles, thus locking as many players as possible into a position where they cannot make a fake claim the next day. This would mean scum would be taking a huge risk if they lied about which tiles they already have. We could set it up the roles to either back up other peoples claims, or expose them as scum. Yes, this leaves scum open to knowing who has which role, but barring other abilities, they can still only kill one player at night, which they would be doing anyway. It seems to me that control is the name of the game, and the more control and knowledge the town have from the start, the more chance we have of making the best use of the available abilities, and limiting scum.

I don't support the idea of flipping and taking the same tile.

[AurorusVox]

Should Town pick letters without turning?

I don't think so. Yes, giving scum opportunities to snatch the letters they want is not ideal, but by not turning at least a few letters over, we'd be leaving the towns ability to use a good number of power roles almost entirely to chance.

The point is scum will see what town has. Townpoints for not realising this though.

But yes. There are situations where taking a random letter is okay for town.
Oh I can't remember what's been flipped already and cba to look back through to find out. Will wait for modpost before flipping.

---

Also, I would like to remind some that though we have quite an interesting setup we still can find scum through conventional methods. Don't get lost in the setup matrix and let scummy stuff slide. However, this early in the game I think discussing how we will use the setup is very important.

So is there nothing "scummy" for you to comment on at this point? I feel like your tone suggests you want to make a serious vote.

---

Comments? Questions? Concerns?

No. I hate it.

Take advantage of the strong town PRs to hit scum hard. Locking into letters (that people have had to CHOOSE) means that scum can't fakeclaim what letters they have later (i.e., if scum take a letter that is part of a scummy ability, we'll at least be tipped off a little. If they snatch and grab before seeing the letter, they have plausible deniability)

---

If it's any consolation, I actually think your entrance to the game was kinda townish, but we're not going to agree on anything theory-wise. Lets just leave it there. I'm happy to watch others rep my points or yours or whatever.

Yeah, I'm sorry I bit your head off.

As long as we can agree to disagree, I'm fine. I'm just not going to put up with another PranaDevil.

Also, I still think you're scum for what I outlined before. Entirely independent of our spat. Especially since this is feeling a lot like an appeasement.

Vote: Hoopla

Didn't you "hope" LLD was scum earlier? Why then is the entrance townish?

[Voidedmafia]

I like IceGuy's plan. Better than Arg's and certainly better than LLD's.

[DCLXVI]

I also like ICEGuy's plan as it is very similar to what I already proposed at the start of the game (which everyone for some reason ignored...)


LLD's plan is absolutely completely anti-tpwn and arugula's is not much better

[Lady Lambdadelta]

People who are dismissing my plan need to define why it is anti town or find themselves hanging from a noose.

[vijay2vasandani]

VOTE: voidedmafia

for being the only person here that I have played with before.


@MoI Yeah, I could see some instances where it would be problematic for someone to take a certain tile.

For example if someone took three tiles in the first three days that added up to a cop ability.


@everyone I just thought of another strategy that would be interesting.

How about we have everyone use their flip so that 13 squares are all showing. This way we can maximize the amount of pr shots that the town will get because everyone will have lots of options to choose from. 9 town prs > 3 scum prs.

I can sort of see where LLD is coming from, but the reason it doesn't work in this setup is because there are only a few possible word combinations. It doesn't work like scrabble because there are more three-letter words you can form than PR exchange combinations and as such, shooting blind isn't a great idea.

VOTE: Hoopla

AV makes a good point.

Also, I mentioned this to the mod, but I think some of the powers you get are disproportionate to the letters required. Like a weak doc needs more (and rarer) letters than a doc.

IceGUY's plan is the best so far.

Flip: C4

[vijay2vasandani]

Ignore that quote. I was going to complain that I *technically* played with DCLXVI before but decided I couldn't be bothered. I though I clicked stop on my browser.

[Amrun]

As a general rule though, if you don't have much towards anything, consider a secret pick.

WHY did you point this out? WHY? You just ruined the efficacy of your own plan. I know you're smarter than that.

Vote: Hoopla

Didn't you "hope" LLD was scum earlier? Why then is the entrance townish?

VOTE: Hoopla


I like IceGuy's plan, theoretically, but in practice, agreeing who is towniest/scummiest is both very difficult and anti-town. The rest of the plans I don't like, except Hoopla's, which I'm ambivalent about because I find her scummy.

Basically v/la for next 2+ weeks, but should be able to post at least once a day this week

[2minds1soul]

Iceguy's plan is pretty good. We approve.
also,

flip: H4

We don't really know what to think on the whole hoopla VS LLD debate. We still need to discuss that a little more.

[vijay2vasandani]

Well I guess to judge who is towniest and who is scummiest, why don't we do a ranking from 1-13 each and then add them up. The person with the lowest number is towniest and the highest is scummiest. While this gives scum around 23% of the decision, they still have to back it up so I think that shouldn't be an issue.

[Amrun]

Giving scum roadmaps to night kills is never a good idea.

[Quilford]

Game Board

Spoiler: MoI's flip

MoI flips tile E5...

Spoiler: Hoopla's flip

Hoopla flips tile K1...

Spoiler: Voidedmafia's flip

Voidedmafia flips tile K6...

Spoiler: Lady Lambdadelta's flip

Lady Lambdadelta flips tile D4...

Spoiler: Lady Lambdadelta's collect

Lady Lambdadelta collects tile D4...

Spoiler: Robocopter87's flip

Robocopter87 flips tile J2...

Spoiler: Robocopter87's collect

Robocopter collects tile J2...

Spoiler: IceGuy's flip

IceGuy flips tile A1...

Spoiler: vijay2vasandani's flip

vijay2vasandani flips tile C4...

Spoiler: 2minds1soul's flip

2minds1soul flips tile H4...

Spoiler: Final Board & Activity Log

Code: Select all

MagnaofIllusion flipped tile E5, revealing an R.
Hoopla flipped tile K1, revealing a C.
Voidedmafia flipped tile K6, revealing an X.
Lady Lambdadelta flipped tile D4, revealing an N.
Lady Lambdadelta took tile D4, collecting an N.
Robocopter87 flipped tile J2, revealing a P.
Robocopter87 took tile J2, collecting a P.
IceGuy flipped tile A1, revealing a P.
vijay2vasandani flipped tile C4, revealing an R.
2minds1soul flipped tile H4, revealing a C.

MagnaofIllusion has used his daily flip.
Hoopla has used her daily flip.
AurorusVox has not used either his daily flip or collect.
IceGuy has used his daily flip.
Lady Lambdadelta has used both her daily flip and collect.
Arugula has not used either his daily flip or collect.
2minds1soul have used their daily flip.
Robocopter87 has used both his daily flip and collect.
whispersilk has not used either her daily flip or collect.
DCLXVI has not used either his daily flip or collect.
vijay2vasandani has used his daily flip.
Amrun has not used either her daily flip or collect.
Voidedmafia has used his daily flip.

Day 1

Hoopla

(4) Lady Lambdadelta, AurorusVox, vijay2vasandani, Amrun

Voidedmafia

(2) DCLXVI, Hoopla

AurorusVox

(1) Robocopter87

whispersilk

(1) 2minds1soul

DCLXVI

(1) Arugula

Arugula

(1) MagnaofIllusion

Not Voting

(3) IceGuy, whispersilk, Voidedmafia

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline hits in (expired on 2012-07-08 11:20:06).

MoI has declared Limited Access during weekends.
Amrun has declared V/LA for over two weeks.

~~~

All players have confirmed.

>>>

Please read the modposts, taking care to understand the rules and especially the setup.

<<<

[Hoopla]

Didn't you "hope" LLD was scum earlier? Why then is the entrance townish?

I still hope she is scum - because she sacrificed her ability to create a word. This is fine by me if she is scum, but annoying if she's town.

She is probably town because her bullish entrance to the game seems like it is coming from a place where she genuinely believes what she is saying. I get the impression she's less likely to try and create a plan as scum. Feel free to unvote now.

[Amrun]

I asked you a question.

[Hoopla]

I asked you a question.

Relax, I was literally about to answer it.

WHY did you point this out? WHY? You just ruined the efficacy of your own plan. I know you're smarter than that.

Because most people probably won't realise it's optimal for some of us to take a secret pick sometimes? Even now, IceGuy's plan doesn't reference or utilise the benefit of secret picks - so it was entirely valid for me to explain why secrets are sometimes good. If you have nothing, or you already have a word from your starting hand, then you should probably pick secretly.

[vijay2vasandani]

I want to take a letter..

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Yeah, Hoopla needs to hang today.

More votes, this way please.

[Voidedmafia]

Not seeing Hoops-scum. Also not really seeing LLD-scum yet, though I'm more inclined to vote her than Hoops.

Spoiler: Possibly optional summation of the board

Going over the letter combos, it appears LLD can poassibly make either neighborize (NB) or Ninja (NJ).
Robocopter has 1 piece for Cop, CPR Doc, or PGO.

Possible word combos based on the tiles currently flipped are:
P, A1 - Cop, PGO, CPR
C, K1'H4 - Cop, CPR, WTC, CM, DC, LC,
R, C4;E5 - CPR, RB
X, K6 - None

If LLD has a J, she should consider herself lucky if she's scum. Though, considering that was literally the luck of the draw (or flip, in this case), it's null more than anything. Same for robo, though to a slightly lesser extent since his possibles aren't exactly as helpful to the scum (yes, there is the whole "keeping it from town" part, but still).

[Hoopla]

People who are dismissing my plan need to define why it is anti town or find themselves hanging from a noose.

I am in a patient but adventurous mood right now, so I'm going to attempt a one-post argument to convince LLD her plan isn't good for town. Sometimes I come to conclusions on back of other ideas or experiences others might not have been privy to, so maybe it's unfair for me to criticise LLD when it's likely we're just coming from two different places. This is me attempting to show LLD the building blocks that lead me to the conclusion that her plan is bad, because I feel like it's pretty black and white, but I'll let her judge.

Essentially, I am basing my opinion on a couple of balance reasons that we have good reason to be true or likely:

1)

3:10 mountainous has roughly a 10-20% chance for town.

We can make this assumption on the back of 2:10 mountainous games we've seen, where town has not won a single game (and presumably this would be a lot easier to win than 3:10).

2)

3:10 Mini Normals average a ratio of roughly 1 scum PR to 3 town PR's and produce roughly a 50% chance for the town.

Town has a huge jump in win percentage when they get the added benefit of powerroles, even though scum usually gets one as well. What this means, is that 1 scum PR doesn't offset 3 town PR's. If it did, we'd still see town with the same low winrate in the 10-20% range. We can clearly conclude that adding PR's to the game (at a 3:1 ratio), even though scum got one, was beneficial to the town when compared to nobody getting any.

If all the PR's in the game managed to die by Night 2, we'd be back to mountainous, and the rest of the game should play out under the same dynamic as a mountainous game. If all the PR's lived until really late in the game, we should be able to conclude that this is more beneficial to the town than all of them dying early, as the sole thing that makes 3:10 games a 50/50 game is the addition of the PR's in the first place - so of course, them getting more use in the game would yield greater benefit for the town overall.

Essentially, by not orchestrating (to some degree), we're playing a higher percentage of the game without power, which is closer to 3:10 mountainous (a bad outcome). If we coordinate collections, even though scum are getting a PR's at a 3:1 ratio, it isn't a bad thing, because we see in Mini Normals that this is a winning ratio if it can be sustained. This is because in mountainous games, the nightkill gives scum carte blanche to take out whoever they want, whereas, power always existing means that sometimes the towniest players get docced, scum gets investigated or vigged - it essentially dilutes the power of the scum's nightkill, as it can only do one thing at a time. It can't take out the towniest player, the likely cop, and a JK all at once. But in mountainous, it can take out the towniest player, and that's all the nightkill needs to do.

By maintaining a 3:1 ratio of power for a higher percentage of the game, we give scum more difficult choices overall. This is why playing the game close to mountainous is bad. LLD, I hope you take this as a serious post - I'm trying to be sincere and respectful. I want you to give it a chance.

[Voidedmafia]

When you say "all PR's lived until really late" do you mean that those with the possibilty to cash in their tiles (assuming they're still alive to do so) save those tiles to cash in until, say, N3 or N4?