Mini 1349: Words with Scum (Game over!)

[IceGuy]

We're not going to be rejecting anyone from taking specific letters, so there's no point voicing interest for letters that help you.

Respond to this, IceGuy.

It's your plan. We aren't following your plan.

[Hoopla]

If you're interested in rejecting people from getting certain letters, you're going to have to tell us why it's beneficial.

Because from what I know, all this will do is streamline scum's kill into getting to kill someone who looks very town and has good letters. It's much more beneficial if good power is spread out/unpredictable, so scum has to choose between using their nightkill to kill good/town players or killing players with good hands. A lot of Mini Normal games and games like Friends and Enemies are won by town by getting lucky and having Mason roles occupied by lesser players, as they naturally avoid the NK and live deeper in the game, which is of great benefit - as opposed to scum getting rid of the best scumhunter N1 who also happens to be a Mason.

[IceGuy]

I don't like repetitions. Refer to my earlier posts.

[whispersilk]

VOTE: whispersilk

"null at best" implies one or more of the three on the wagon other than amrun is a scumread of yours. Yet you have no vote placed. Stop posturing and keeping your options open, scumbag.

I will place my vote when I've decided who I think is most likely to be scum. I was stating why I don't agree with the people that think Arugula is scum, and that I don't have town reads on 3/4 of his wagon. Since when is that scummy?

Where am I trying to mislead or impress anyone?

[Hoopla]

I don't like repetitions. Refer to my earlier posts.

My point in my last post was first made in post #149. I haven't seen you say anything since then to refute the double-edged sword of losing a strong town player with good letters (which is what will happen if we divert good letters to town-looking players).

If you want to give up and accept we're not rejecting anyone from taking a letter, just tell me, so I don't have to bother.

[AurorusVox]

No but seriously. If there are two people who want the same letter it's a good idea to discuss who gets it. MoI had like two other back-up preferences so I figured he wouldn't mind me pinching his choice numero uno.

But I'd stick with "I would like <letter> but there are others I wouldn't mind" -- this way we don't give away what the second choices are. A nice way to do the good but not the bad.

---

@Whisper, "null at best" suggests you have a scumread -- it's not saying you don't have a townread. If you said "the rest are nullreads" I'd have had no problem with it.

[Hoopla]

But I'd stick with "I would like <letter> but there are others I wouldn't mind" -- this way we don't give away what the second choices are. A nice way to do the good but not the bad.

I'd be okay with that as a compromise, but I also wouldn't bother if you're taking a duplicate letter or a letter that doesn't fit in a 3-letter word.

[whispersilk]

Whispersilk is scummy. I'm not sure your 'slip' is any actually a slip. Null at best means just that - his behavior isn't necessarily a slam dunk. My issue is the fact that Whisper doesn't have any significant Scum-reads that I can see and

doesn't seem to find issue with any of the non-Hoopla players on Arugula's wagon

despite her thoughts that Arugula's behavior is not directly scummy.

What does this mean?

[whispersilk]

@Whisper, "null at best" suggests you have a scumread -- it's not saying you don't have a townread. If you said "the rest are nullreads" I'd have had no problem with it.

So you're voting for me because I said that 3/4 of Arugula's wagon is either a null or scum read, including yourself?

Where am I trying to mislead or impress anyone?

Can you please answer this.

[whispersilk]

@Iceguy:

Please give your reasons for jumping on my baseless wagon.

[IceGuy]

@Iceguy:

Please give your reasons for jumping on my baseless wagon.

The reason is that it's not baseless.

[MagnaofIllusion]

No, it's called not dealing in absolutes.

If someone is scummy enough to warrant not receiving “prime” letter then they are worth of a vote at this stage of the game IMO.

It appears to me that you were just minimizing your actual vote foot-print which is not Pro-Town.

Also willing to vote Hoopla as she keeps pushing plans that look good on the outside but are actually anti-town. One shitty plan can be bad thinking, two shitty plans are scummy.

Further indication to me that your stances are contrived. Just in this same post you made an excuse why you had yet to vote Hoopla while calling her scummy multiple times. And then you posted this while voting for Whispersilk. Who you had only indicated you found no longer Town for her posting. No questioning of her or pointing out what you found scummy about her.

I have yet to have a problem with any of Hoopla's plans and certain don't find them shitty.

FOS – Iceguy

--

No but seriously. If there are two people who want the same letter it's a good idea to discuss who gets it. MoI had like two other back-up preferences so I figured he wouldn't mind me pinching his choice numero uno.

Can you point me to everyone who hasn't taken a letter ISOs where they don’t show interest in the letter you took or where you indicate you prefer P?

--

I know Magna's exact hand now because of him floating his interest and I think I know yours now as well. Any half intelligent scum are capable of putting the pieces together.

I will wager any amount of money you don’t. Not that we will actually be betting since it is against site rules.

--

I will place my vote when I've decided who I think is most likely to be scum.

I’ve seen you float this exact reasoning when scum. Discuss why I should not vote you for this statement given that fact.

What does this mean?

I thought it was pretty straightforward. I’m saying your behavior regarding the Arugula wagon doesn’t look Town.

You are stating he’s being voted when his behavior is Null. Yet you don’t find anyone on his wagon scummy at all … everyone but Hoopla is “Null at best”. If he’s a sizeable bad wagon odds are at least one scum is on there. Yet you aren't willing to commit specifically to who in the 3 actually are scum.

So you're voting for me because I said that 3/4 of Arugula's wagon is either a null or scum read, including yourself?

Who is the Null and who is the Scum of those 3 players then? You did a bang-up job of dodging actually committing to a position aside from Hoopla.

[whispersilk]

@Iceguy:

So if you think it's not baseless, please state your exact reasons for voting me.

[IceGuy]

If someone is scummy enough to warrant not receiving “prime” letter then they are worth of a vote at this stage of the game IMO.

That's your opinion. That's not my opinion.

It appears to me that you were just minimizing your actual vote foot-print which is not Pro-Town.

*yawn*

Have you ever caught scum with that shitty "tell"? Or rather, has anyone in the history of Mafia ever caught scum with that? No? It's because it's

not a fucking tell

. There is absolutely no reason for Mafia to not place votes on suspects - the only reason some people claim it's a scumtell is because it somehow turned into a meta on this site.

Further indication to me that your stances are contrived. Just in this same post you made an excuse why you had yet to vote Hoopla while calling her scummy multiple times. And then you posted this while voting for Whispersilk. Who you had only indicated you found no longer Town for her posting. No questioning of her or pointing out what you found scummy about her.

I had already posted why I find her suspicious. I'm willing to vote both whispersilk and Hoopla; whispersilk had the larger wagon so I was voting her. Simple as that.

I have yet to have a problem with any of Hoopla's plans and certain don't find them shitty.

You also claim that not voting is a scumtell.

FOS – Iceguy

Calling me out for being scummy because I didn't vote and then FoSing me for it is almost more irony than I can handle.

[whispersilk]

I will place my vote when I've decided who I think is most likely to be scum.

I’ve seen you float this exact reasoning when scum. Discuss why I should not vote you for this statement given that fact.

Because it's actually how I usually go about voting. I don't believe much in RVS, and as town I have previously gone an entire game day without placing a real vote. So I'd say your reasoning = null, and why would you vote for that when you've already pointed out players that are genuinely scummy?

I thought it was pretty straightforward. I’m saying your behavior regarding the Arugula wagon doesn’t look Town.

You are stating he’s being voted when his behavior is Null. Yet you don’t find anyone on his wagon scummy at all … everyone but Hoopla is “Null at best”. If he’s a sizeable bad wagon odds are at least one scum is on there. Yet you aren't willing to commit specifically to who in the 3 actually are scum.

I think you should read what I said again. I never mentioned Hoopla. It was Amrun that I said I had a town read on. As for the other 3, "null

at best

" means exactly that.

Who is the Null and who is the Scum of those 3 players then? You did a bang-up job of dodging actually committing to a position aside from Hoopla.

You mean Amrun. Calling 3 players either null or scum reads is not dodging anything. The reason I haven't voted any of them yet is because I haven't decided which one I find scummiest, and I certainly won't vote someone blindly and before at least giving them an opportunity to respond to some kind of a case, which unfortunately can be said of the people voting for me. We are only 72 hours into day 1, and there has not been much scumhunting - other than fighting over which plan should be followed.

[AurorusVox]

@Whisper, "null at best" suggests you have a scumread -- it's not saying you don't have a townread. If you said "the rest are nullreads" I'd have had no problem with it.

So you're voting for me because I said that 3/4 of Arugula's wagon is either a null or scum read, including yourself?

The fact I'm one of them doesn't matter. I'm voting you because you said that 3/4 of Arugula's wagon is either a null or scum read but you are currently not voting anyone. You claim to be looking to decide which one is scummiest but afaict you have made no moves to figure out which one that might be.

---

@MoI

I would like to say that I've got my eye on the P at the moment.

As for your other request, I'm not going to ISO people looking for something that isn't there.
If someone else wants a P, you find it and show it to me.

P.S. why do you say Whisper says that no one on the wagon is scummy and then ask him which of the waggoners is scum in the same post?

[whispersilk]

@IceGuy:

Seeing as you haven't responded to my question directly, I'll quote your response to MoI.

I had already posted why I find her suspicious. I'm willing to vote both whispersilk and Hoopla; whispersilk had the larger wagon so I was voting her. Simple as that.

You mention me only twice (and never directly) before voting for me, the first time in response to MoI:

Had Whisper down as town, but on re-read I've noticed that most of her posts are generalities and repetitions, which moves her into the "scum trying to appear townish" category.

I fail to see where my posts (6 at the time) fall into either category. 1 was in reply to a vote on me, another linking games for MoI, and another in response to MoI's question he posed to everyone at the start of the game. So that leaves 3 posts that you could be referring to. Can you point out exactly where those 3 posts were generalities or repetitious so I may at least have an opportunity to defend myself?

I don't agree with this. Whispersilk has games as town that parallel his opening play so far - I remember when Mayo Clinic was an open setup, he dedicated a lot of time to structuring a winning strategy for town. I think he likes the logic puzzle aspect of the game, so I don't really think "scum trying to appear townish" is accurate. I've also seen him powerlurk quite heavily as scum, and although it's too early to tell in this game, I'm not worried.

Please re-read her ISO. Her posts have nothing to do with logic puzzling.

I responded directly to you regarding this right here, but you either didn't read it, or you couldn't be bothered to respond. Either way, the lack of response suggests that it wasn't important enough to you to open a discussion with me. What is scummy is that you're now suddenly claiming these two posts are your sole reasons for hopping on my wagon when you did, that and the fact my wagon is bigger than Hoopla's, you know, Hoopla the other player you'd be happy to vote for, and the player you've actually taken the time to address and respond to. If I'm the better vote, why have you not bothered to even ask me a single question regarding your suspicions of me?

[whispersilk]

The fact I'm one of them doesn't matter. I'm voting you because you said that 3/4 of Arugula's wagon is either a null or scum read but you are currently not voting anyone. You claim to be looking to decide which one is scummiest but afaict you have made no moves to figure out which one that might be.

Up till recently you were the frontrunner because of your comment directed at me, the one I asked you about here. If you had replied to me, you would have found out that I thought you scummy for giving me townpoints for

not

realising something that even an idiot would realise, but you didn't, and the next time you addressed me was when you voted me. So yes, I did make a move. You were my voting preference, but I wanted to hear what you had to say before laying a vote on you. I now find IceGuy equally if not more scummy, but I'm waiting for answers from him before voting either of you.

[IceGuy]

I don't think so. Yes, giving scum opportunities to snatch the letters they want is not ideal, but by not turning at least a few letters over, we'd be leaving the towns ability to use a good number of power roles almost entirely to chance.

Generality, i.e. everybody looking at the setup can figure that out immediately.

Seeing as we've all been given 2 letters already, I doubt anyone would have to wait 3 days before gaining an ability. Despite the randomness, the fact that some power roles only require 2 letters, means there is a fair chance that someone has ended up with an ability before the game started. Also, everyone is going to be watching who takes which upturned letters.

Same.

This is true, but scum have one kill a night (barring other gained abilities), so they couldn't take out every town power role each night. I think getting town to pick up the maximum # of abilities each night would be the best thing.

First sentence: As before. Last sentence: That's even more trivial. You don't even need to look at the setup to say "the more PRs town has, the better it is for town".

I'm not much in favour of random voting, especially when discussion is going the way it is. I'll vote as soon as someone gives me a real reason to.

If I understand the rules correctly, I think anyone is free to pick any of the tiles at any time.

The first part is a statement that's actually insightful, but still not really useful. Second part is again a trivial observation.

Since it should now be clear what I mean, I'm going to stop here with the quotes. Read ISO for context.

ISO #4: Answering MoI's question.
ISO #5: You attack LLD after everybody has attacked her with an insanely tl;dr post, recapping all of our arguments and not adding anything from your own.
ISO #6: Fluff.
ISO #7: Against my accusation you weren't logic puzzling in this game, you defend by saying you did in another game and a general diatribe on logic puzzling.
ISO #8 contains the first semblance of your own opinion, but you only have a bunch of null reads and a townread on Amrun who hasn't actually contributed enough to be read because of her V/LA.
ISO #9-#15 is you defending yourself against attacks, mostly again by re-stating and some information on your playstyle.

Logic puzzling is not re-phrasing the role PMs or the public information. Logic puzzling is also not going through what other players have said before you and restate it.

You haven't formed a single non-null read that's somehow grounded in fact. You haven't even really taken part in the plans discussion after saying LLD's plan was bad when everybody else was already saying it. I still have no idea what plan you want to follow or who you think is town and scum.

EBWOP: Okay, a new post came in while I was writing this, in which you consider the people attacking you "scummy". Those reads are approximately as honest as the one on Amrun.

[MagnaofIllusion]

That's your opinion. That's not my opinion.

Congratulations you’ve arrived at the root of Mafia.

Have you ever caught scum with that shitty "tell"? Or rather, has anyone in the history of Mafia ever caught scum with that? No? It's because it's not a fucking tell. There is absolutely no reason for Mafia to not place votes on suspects - the only reason some people claim it's a scumtell is because it somehow turned into a meta on this site.

Wow, quite a vitriolic response. Noted in the “Caught for bad reasons?” file.

You are saying scum have no reason not to vote their scum-reads. Town don’t either. When you are displaying behaviors that don’t have any logical Town basis by definition those are not Town behavior.

I had already posted why I find her suspicious. I'm willing to vote both whispersilk and Hoopla; whispersilk had the larger wagon so I was voting her. Simple as that.

So you found them both scummy but had to wait until Post 165 when AV moved Whisper ahead of Hoopla for the first time until you decided to vote. Convienantly after I called you out for not voting. Doesn’t make much sense to me …

Calling me out for being scummy because I didn't vote and then FoSing me for it is almost more irony than I can handle.

It would be irony if I had an non-active vote when I FOSed you. But nope.jpg that’s not the case. Trying to undermine me while being factually incorrect earns you more Scum Points.

--

Because it's actually how I usually go about voting. I don't believe much in RVS, and as town I have previously gone an entire game day without placing a real vote. So I'd say your reasoning = null, and why would you vote for that when you've already pointed out players that are genuinely scummy?

So you have a behavior with no Pro-Town motivation and have displayed said behavior as scum before but it should be Null? Nope.jpg.

You mean Amrun. Calling 3 players either null or scum reads is not dodging anything. The reason I haven't voted any of them yet is because I haven't decided which one I find scummiest, and I certainly won't vote someone blindly and before at least giving them an opportunity to respond to some kind of a case, which unfortunately can be said of the people voting for me. We are only 72 hours into day 1, and there has not been much scumhunting - other than fighting over which plan should be followed.

So once again – you call three players either Null or scum and hold off on actually making any sort of commitment to who is scummy and why. Scum can and do get caught and hung within 7 pages in Mini Theme games. Pretending you can't scum-hunt early is a fallacy.

--

As for your other request, I'm not going to ISO people looking for something that isn't there.
If someone else wants a P, you find it and show it to me.

Well my issue is that you basically grabbed it when plenty of others had yet to weigh in and when someone else had expressed it was their top pick. Call me crazy but that makes me a bit cranky for some odd reason.

P.S. why do you say Whisper says that no one on the wagon is scummy and then ask him which of the waggoners is scum in the same post?

Because my reply covered multiple posts by Whisper - the initial post by Whisper (where she didn’t directly indicate any scum reads IMO) and a later one where she said “Well, I have 3 players who might be Null or might be scum. Not telling you which”.

[IceGuy]

Wow, quite a vitriolic response. Noted in the “Caught for bad reasons?” file.

Call it annoyance at being called out as "scum" with that "tell" and magically flipping as town every time.

Especially as that's just an incredibly easy "tell" to fake.

Ironically, I've never actually been scum and been called out for that.

You are saying scum have no reason not to vote their scum-reads. Town don’t either. When you are displaying behaviors that don’t have any logical Town basis by definition those are not Town behavior.

...what?

So you found them both scummy but had to wait until Post 165 when AV moved Whisper ahead of Hoopla for the first time until you decided to vote. Convienantly after I called you out for not voting. Doesn’t make much sense to me …

It was after I went to sleep and woke up again. Timezones.

It would be irony if I had an non-active vote when I FOSed you. But nope.jpg that’s not the case. Trying to undermine me while being factually incorrect earns you more Scum Points.

Actually, I'm rather tempted to start a wagon on you now for your shitty reasoning.

But I know it'll turn out like in 70s Smalltown, where you attacked me with incredibly shitty reasoning, got lynched and flipped town.

Unfortunately, you don't seem to have learned from that experience.

[Voidedmafia]

collect: C4

Post 164 - Why are we "null at best"?

Post 167 - I guess I'm just underestimating their strength.

Post 171 - No idea where you got the idea that Hoops has "shitty plans"

Post 177 - I don't recall you objecting around when Hoopla first said that, either.

Post 188 - Considering he's already voting for someone who's also a good scumspect, I don't see the irony.

P-EDIT: Someone doesn't like that they're being pressured.

[whispersilk]

I don't think so. Yes, giving scum opportunities to snatch the letters they want is not ideal, but by not turning at least a few letters over, we'd be leaving the towns ability to use a good number of power roles almost entirely to chance.

Generality, i.e. everybody looking at the setup can figure that out immediately.

That was in response to a question that MoI asked everyone. Did you expect me not to answer just because the answer should have been obvious?

Seeing as we've all been given 2 letters already, I doubt anyone would have to wait 3 days before gaining an ability. Despite the randomness, the fact that some power roles only require 2 letters, means there is a fair chance that someone has ended up with an ability before the game started. Also, everyone is going to be watching who takes which upturned letters.

Same.

Which part?

Again, it was in response to DCLXVI, because I wanted him to understand the flaw in his statement. What is scummy about that?

This is true, but scum have one kill a night (barring other gained abilities), so they couldn't take out every town power role each night. I think getting town to pick up the maximum # of abilities each night would be the best thing.

First sentence: As before. Last sentence: That's even more trivial. You don't even need to look at the setup to say "the more PRs town has, the better it is for town".

Did you call out the other 2 people that said the exact same thing on the very first page

after

I made my post for stating the obvious and being repetative?

Again, that was in response to someone, and not a random post made to keep up appearances.

I'm not much in favour of random voting, especially when discussion is going the way it is. I'll vote as soon as someone gives me a real reason to.

If I understand the rules correctly, I think anyone is free to pick any of the tiles at any time.

The first part is a statement that's actually insightful, but still not really useful. Second part is again a trivial observation.

The first part was in response to the person that voted for me. So how is it not beneficial for me to give my reasons? The second part was a response to a question put forth by the same person in the same post. How is pointing out a rule to someone who wanted to limit people's choice of tile in a way that could greatly benefit scum a bad thing?

Since it should now be clear what I mean, I'm going to stop here with the quotes. Read ISO for context.

The only thing that is clear is that your reason for voting for me is non-existant and ergo scummy.

ISO #5: You attack LLD after everybody has attacked her with an insanely tl;dr post, recapping all of our arguments and not adding anything from your own.

My post directed at LLD was in no way an attack and was hardly too long. I just stated my thoughts politely, and in fact I agreed with aspects of her reasoning while disagreeing with her methods. I also shared my thoughts on how she should have presented her plan differently, instead of trying to force people into following. Can you be a little less vague with your accusation and specify where I am "re-capping" everyone else's arguments with the quotes to prove it? Thanks.

Also, the way you accuse me of "recapping all of our arguments and not adding anything from your own" made me ISO you again to read up your own personal arguments made against LLD and her plan. I think it's pretty hardcore scummy to accuse me of something that I am not guilty of, but something that you are! This is

your only

argument against or comment on LLD and her plan:

I agree with Hoopla regarding LLD.

VOTE: IceGuy

ISO #7: Against my accusation you weren't logic puzzling in this game, you defend by saying you did in another game and a general diatribe on logic puzzling.

My plan was

based on using logic and deduction to catch scum

, and yet you still don't understand that despite what Hoopla said and my full explanation in the post you're referring to.

ISO #8 contains the first semblance of your own opinion, but you only have a bunch of null reads and a townread on Amrun who hasn't actually contributed enough to be read because of her V/LA.

No, I said null at best when referring to 3 people. That means at least one of them was a scum read.

Logic puzzling is not re-phrasing the role PMs or the public information. Logic puzzling is also not going through what other players have said before you and restate it.

What part of Hoopla's post do you not understand? She was obviously referring to my plan and not every single post I had made up till that point, and she was the one that called it "logic puzzling", not me.

You haven't formed a single non-null read that's somehow grounded in fact. You haven't even really taken part in the plans discussion after saying LLD's plan was bad when everybody else was already saying it.

Really? I think I've refuted the latter part of your post. I put forth my own plan for debate and didn't get much response. I've stated that I have a town read on Amrun, and null-scum reads on the other 3 on Arugulas wagon. When I have firm reads on everyone else, I'll post them. Where are your reads on everyone?

I still have no idea what plan you want to follow or who you think is town and scum.

I don't want to follow any plan, because it's too late to do so for any of them. Who is "following" your plan? It seems to me that most people are doing whatever they want, if they haven't semi-followed another plan already and messed up any chance of following yours successfully. I'm not getting involved in useless debates about plans that cannot work at this point.

EBWOP: Okay, a new post came in while I was writing this, in which you consider the people attacking you "scummy". Those reads are approximately as honest as the one on Amrun.

Fabricating reasons as you are is hardly town.

[IceGuy]

My plan was

based on using logic and deduction to catch scum

, and yet you still don't understand that despite what Hoopla said and my full explanation in the post you're referring to.

What plan? You never posted a plan.

No, I said null at best when referring to 3 people. That means at least one of them was a scum read.

That's a creative interpretation. Still a cop-out, though.

Also, the point is not how many other people did whatever you did. The point is that you did almost nothing but.

The fact that you suddenly discover I'm scummy based on a post from a few pages ago just when I start to attack you doesn't help your case, really.

[Quilford]

Mod Announcement

Prodding Lady Lambdadelta. She must respond within (expired on 2012-06-26 16:46:00). Full votecount coming later.