Mini 1348- Dragon Ball Z: Saiyan Saga Mafia (Game Over)

[JohnnyFarrar]

In like his third post he gave a list of scumreads, and I've read all of today? I said I read partial ISO's. Did you miss that part?

[Toro]

MoI has me on edge. His back and forth with Thor at the end of yesterday had me thinking one of them was scum, and I was dumb enough to hammer Thor before giving it much thought. However, he's also the most proactive and (from what I've seen) intelligent player alive and we can actually afford a mislynch, so I'm not going to pay too much attention to my scumvibes from him right now. It's probably just paranoia mixed with OMGUS for the vote earlier.

Probably?

Guille should kill Toro right now. I'm pretty sure Toro is scum, if only for the fact that he's attacking the easy target (me), but more recent play is full of weird little scummy things. Calling out BK who's pretty obvious town, refusing to nameclaim, things like that. I think we'd be better off without him. That would also confirm Guille and bring our potential scum pool down to myself(notscum), Syndrome, PV, and MoI.

"I think we'd be better off without him."

--- So what you're saying is you're really not sure that I'm scum but essentially you just want me gone period regardless of alignment. How would my town flip confirm Guille? Your scum pool seems awfully large post-lynch, with me gone that'd leave six players left in the game, with four players left on your scum list left. I find it strange you left yourself in the scum pool.

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Regarding Guille's gambit, why would you expect Mafia to kill you tonight's night phase? Everyone was calling on you to use your ability today so you would probably have to come clean about your ability sooner rather than later. I'm not really understanding the point of the bluff.

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@MoI- you seemed insistent on the name claim. What did you get from it?

Nothing more than that Guile’s name claim at least makes a minimum of flavor sense. Claiming someone like Chi-Chi or Mr. Popo would have instantly earned me his vote. Now it doesn’t clear him 100% (especially now that he’s revealed it was a ‘ruse’) but Piccollo or Gohan were the only names that made sense as a Dayvig who could not shoot Day 1.

Given that Johnny and Syndrome claimed Mr. Popo and Chi-Chi respectively are you willing to vote for either of them?

Regarding possible Dayvig roles, I can't see Gohan being one. What makes you think Saiyan-Saga Gohan could be a Day-Vig? Piccolo I logically see since he's the one who killed Raditz.

Refusing a name claim, thinking BK is scum, thinking yates was town, thinking I was scum, thinking mcqueen was scum, putting me at l-2 at the beginning of today.

These are all reasons I think Toro is scum. Now your turn, why is he town?

P-edit: A_I wasn't playing well, so I have no desire to analyze his play,.

A. Refusing a name claim. --- False, I was trying to go with quid pro quo but realized "Ah fuck it" and just did it so I could quit having MoI pester me to do it.
B. BK is scum --- So for thinking his interaction with your wagon seemed scummy = me being scum?
C. Yates was town --- This makes me scum? PV thought he was scum, does this automatically equate to PV being scum? Slandaar didn't have his vote on him and he was one of the stronger town players.

YOU ALSO DIDN'T HAVE YOUR VOTE ON YATES AND YOU DID NOT THINK HE WAS SCUMMY EITHER.

So if I'm scum for not thinking he was scum, how are you

not scum

for not thinking he was scum?
D. Thinking mcqueen was scum --- This makes me scum? See above, PV thought he was scum as well. His play wasn't town-like when I made my accusation towards him.
E. Thinking you were scum --- Clear OMGUS.
F. Putting you to L-2 today --- Another example of OMGUS, however this itself is not scummy unless you feel as if the pressure was going to be quickly applied on to you...as if you're guilty.

If this is your actual case against me it's full of holes.

Fine with a Toro lynch.

Intent to vote.

Why do you have to declare intent to vote?

I think you might be misreading ... I mean nothing in Yate's ISO gives me any reason to not lynch Johnny.

I also have an issue with "Intent to vote Toro". Why is he not voting his scum suspect at this juncture?

Personally I believe that after his 'oopsy-daisies I'm so sorry for killing you' moment with Thor he's trying to appear extra careful. Which is ridiculous, I only have one vote on me.

No, I said intent to vote because I have no intent of re reading and I don't wanna mess up the game for the.rest of you.

So you're practically admitting to just sitting on the sidelines because "you don't wanna mess it up for us"...yep, you're scum.

Oh and you shouldn't put me at L-1 because Im town and mislynching is bad.

Bad defense is bad.

I don't wanna read 62 pages. Sorry. I've tried multiple times, but it's not enough to hold my interest. My decision making right now is from partial ISO's, the most recent day of discussion, and VCA. The only ISO I've finished is Syndrome, which is why I really wanna see more from him. But, he's voting Toro today, so he's ok in my book.

How did you come up with all this dirt on Toro if you haven't read his ISO or the game?

Guille should kill Toro right now. I'm pretty sure Toro is scum, if only for the fact that he's attacking the easy target (me), but more recent play is full of weird little scummy things. Calling out BK who's pretty obvious town, refusing to nameclaim, things like that. I think we'd be better off without him. That would also confirm Guille and bring our potential scum pool down to myself(notscum), Syndrome, PV, and MoI.

I'd like an answer to this.

[JohnnyFarrar]

In like his third post he gave a list of scumreads, and I've read all of today? I said I read partial ISO's. Did you miss that part?

[Toro]

Care to address the other parts of my post?

[JohnnyFarrar]

MoI has me on edge. His back and forth with Thor at the end of yesterday had me thinking one of them was scum, and I was dumb enough to hammer Thor before giving it much thought. However, he's also the most proactive and (from what I've seen) intelligent player alive and we can actually afford a mislynch, so I'm not going to pay too much attention to my scumvibes from him right now. It's probably just paranoia mixed with OMGUS for the vote earlier.

Probably?

Yes.

Guille should kill Toro right now. I'm pretty sure Toro is scum, if only for the fact that he's attacking the easy target (me), but more recent play is full of weird little scummy things. Calling out BK who's pretty obvious town, refusing to nameclaim, things like that. I think we'd be better off without him. That would also confirm Guille and bring our potential scum pool down to myself(notscum), Syndrome, PV, and MoI.

"I think we'd be better off without him."

--- So what you're saying is you're really not sure that I'm scum but essentially you just want me gone period regardless of alignment. How would my town flip confirm Guille? Your scum pool seems awfully large post-lynch, with me gone that'd leave six players left in the game, with four players left on your scum list left. I find it strange you left yourself in the scum pool.

Yes, I'm saying I'm not sure that you're scum. I haven't read the whole game (as I've said) but you seem the scummiest. Add to that the fact that everyone has taken some sort of stance on you and you've got a nice probably-scum-but-definitely-information-giving lynch.

Refusing a name claim, thinking BK is scum, thinking yates was town, thinking I was scum, thinking mcqueen was scum, putting me at l-2 at the beginning of today.

These are all reasons I think Toro is scum. Now your turn, why is he town?

P-edit: A_I wasn't playing well, so I have no desire to analyze his play,.

A. Refusing a name claim. --- False, I was trying to go with quid pro quo but realized "Ah fuck it" and just did it so I could quit having MoI pester me to do it.
B. BK is scum --- So for thinking his interaction with your wagon seemed scummy = me being scum?
C. Yates was town --- This makes me scum? PV thought he was scum, does this automatically equate to PV being scum? Slandaar didn't have his vote on him and he was one of the stronger town players.

YOU ALSO DIDN'T HAVE YOUR VOTE ON YATES AND YOU DID NOT THINK HE WAS SCUMMY EITHER.

So if I'm scum for not thinking he was scum, how are you

not scum

for not thinking he was scum?
D. Thinking mcqueen was scum --- This makes me scum? See above, PV thought he was scum as well. His play wasn't town-like when I made my accusation towards him.
E. Thinking you were scum --- Clear OMGUS.
F. Putting you to L-2 today --- Another example of OMGUS, however this itself is not scummy unless you feel as if the pressure was going to be quickly applied on to you...as if you're guilty.

If this is your actual case against me it's full of holes.

A. You did though. Just because you broke down and did it under pressure doesn't change the fact that you initially refused.
B. It does when BK is so obviously town
C. I didn't think he was scum either, but I know I'm town. Doesn't change the fact that he may have had a scumbuddy (you) that wanted to protect him.
D. It's part of my reason for voting. I don't care if no one else can confirm. You're gunning for another town player right now.
E. Putting me in a position to get quickhammered without waiting for my defense? Really?

Fine with a Toro lynch.

Intent to vote.

Why do you have to declare intent to vote?

*sigh*

I'm not putting you in a position to be quickhammered because there is a chance that you're town and I don't want to make another large mistake.

I think you might be misreading ... I mean nothing in Yate's ISO gives me any reason to not lynch Johnny.

I also have an issue with "Intent to vote Toro". Why is he not voting his scum suspect at this juncture?

Personally I believe that after his 'oopsy-daisies I'm so sorry for killing you' moment with Thor he's trying to appear extra careful. Which is ridiculous, I only have one vote on me.

And mine would make it L-2. The game is too close for that right now and I'd rather not be responsible for putting the town in a precarious position.

No, I said intent to vote because I have no intent of re reading and I don't wanna mess up the game for the.rest of you.

So you're practically admitting to just sitting on the sidelines because "you don't wanna mess it up for us"...yep, you're scum.

I'm not sitting on the sidelines. I'm making my position clearly known without putting the game in danger.

Oh and you shouldn't put me at L-1 because Im town and mislynching is bad.

Bad defense is bad.

Only one I got.

[guille2015]

Regarding Guille's gambit, why would you expect Mafia to kill you tonight's night phase? Everyone was calling on you to use your ability today so you would probably have to come clean about your ability sooner rather than later. I'm not really understanding the point of the bluff.

Now, no. The gambit would have worked if (as per originally agreed) the shot was taken tomorrow. I telegraphed who I was going to shoot, so mafia will know if they were in danger or not. If they were in danger, they would kill me. If not, they'd let me live. Regardless, mafia benefited from me not shooting today and waiting for tomorrow. Take a look at those that did support waiting for tomorrow. If I recall, you did not mention anything for that matter. That's why I said that I was convinced that you were scum.

[guille2015]

Johnny and Toro have been on each others throats all day. How much of that could be busing each other. However, something interesting is that after my gambit failed, their post volume increased noticeably.

@MOI, SOD and BK, whose your Top scum read?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MOI, SOD and BK, whose your Top scum read?

Here’s my problem. There are too many players in this game who can reaslistically be scum. Here’s my run-down of the players left –

Syndrome – he’s Town IMO based on Yates’ treatment of iDany / Syndrome and certain posts made by iDany. Not voting him.

BK201 – He has the next best voting pattern in regards to Yates (in that he voted him over Benmage at the end of Day 1 and did vote for him Day 2). I have some healthy levels of paranoia given his recent scum reveal in the game you played in because he shown that his will bus actively and he makes several plays that are reminiscent of things he did there. Also I’m very much not enamored of his choice to disappear when not under fire (look at his boost in activity after I called him out today. Now that he’s not under fire he’s gone almost 48 hours since posting in this thread while being active on site).

Guile – Honestly don’t like a lot about your predecessors. The replacements have created some huge discontinuity in the slot and snifit only voted Yates after it was pretty much a done deal. The claim is the only thing saving you right now as a Set-up of Cop / Bodyguard as Town power-roles isn’t balanced at all against a scum group with a Godfather unless said Godfather is indeed bulletproof and thus a red herring and the rest of the team are Goons.

That leaves Toro / Peregrine / Johnny as where my vote can realistically go. All three have played very poorly in relation to Yates (Toro was probably the best with his parked vote on Yates Day 1 but his “Oh, he’s Town” follow-up Day 2 after Benmage flipped Town is terrible) and Yates interactions with them are all credible as partner interactions. You can see where my vote landed for today later in this post but I would not be shocked to see any of them be scum.

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Given that Johnny and Syndrome claimed Mr. Popo and Chi-Chi respectively are you willing to vote for either of them?

Regarding possible Dayvig roles, I can't see Gohan being one. What makes you think Saiyan-Saga Gohan could be a Day-Vig? Piccolo I logically see since he's the one who killed Raditz.

On the name claim? Absolutely not. The reason I would have lynched Guile for claiming one of those names is due to his Dayvig claim and the flavor we have seen so far. I’m not ever lynching Syndrome because he is Town and my vote for Johnny is based on his play not his name-claim.

As an aside – Gohan can certainly work as a Dayvig. His explosion of power is the reason Radditz was damaged enough that Piccolo could activate his Beam Cannon and kill him. Additionally his transformation into the Oozaru at the end of the saga was the only reason Vegeta was defeated (he crushed him).

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Because I haven't read the entire thread and I don't wanna lose the game for the town because I made a rash decision on an incomplete read.

No, I said intent to vote because I have no intent of re reading and I don't wanna mess up the game for the.rest of you.

Oh and you shouldn't put me at L-1 because Im town and mislynching is bad.

Others have pointed out this looks like faked cautiousness. And I concur given he was willing to hammer Thor without a claim. We aren’t in LYLO (which has been made abundantly clear) so there is no reason a mislynch ‘ruins the game’ for everyone else so I'm finding his responses today indicative of scum.

Top it off with a AtE dollop of “Well I’m Town” and that combined with my ISO read gives me enough for me to place my vote.

VOTE: Johnny

This is L-1. Anyone who intends to hammer should state that before doing so.

[MagnaofIllusion]

OH BK201 COME OUT AND PLAY! I CAN SEE YOU!

[pappums rat]

Votecount 4.8

JohnnyFarrar - 3 (Toro, PeregrineV, MagnaofIllusion)
PeregrineV - 1 (BK201)
Toro - 1 (syndromeofadown)

Not Voting - (JohnnyFarrar, guille2015)

With 7 alive it takes 4 to lynch.

The deadline for Day 4 is 2 AM EST on August 7, 2012.

[pappums rat]

BK201 has received his second prod of the game.

[JohnnyFarrar]

I was afraid this would happen. I only have myself to blame. I suggest you all put some thought into who will be scum when I flip town.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I was afraid this would happen. I only have myself to blame. I suggest you all put some thought into who will be scum when I flip town.

Who do you think is scum if you are lynched Johnny? If you are Town you should probably have some parting thoughts ...

[guille2015]

I'm OK with hammering Johnny. I want to hear BK first, see if he's got something to add. It would also be nice to hear from SOD.

[JohnnyFarrar]

My reads haven't changed from yesterday.

I now fully believe Guille and still think BK is town.

That leaves MoI, Toro, Syndrome, and PeregrineV in the possible scum pool.

I'm almost sure that Toro is scum, the other I don't have as much confidence on.

Pere does seem scummy to me, but that could just be because I violently disagree with most/all of his reads.

MoI makes me shiver. If he's scum (which is pretty possible), I feel like he's gonna win this.

MAKE. SYNDROME. POST. MORE.

[BK201]

Ok well this game will receive the majority of my attention from here on. I am in several other games and I was majorly behind in them, but now back to this game.

Don't hammer Johnny, I don't think he is even the best choice.

[BK201]

Ftr MoI is 100% town. I don't want to share why though because I want to keep using this town read, but its something dicknose did, and to a lesser extent MoI did.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Don't hammer Johnny, I don't think he is even the best choice.

So this is the second time today you've defended Johnny from votes.

First it was the "OMG, L-2" now this vagueness.

Why don't you explain why you don't think he is the best bet?

[BK201]

I think the scum team is PV and Toro. Could be PV and Syndrome, but I'm pretty sure on PV.

[guille2015]

I'm Listening.

[BK201]

@MOI, SOD and BK, whose your Top scum read?

Syndrome – he’s Town IMO based on Yates’ treatment of iDany / Syndrome and certain posts made by iDany. Not voting him.

[/b]

Can you go into details on this?

[PeregrineV]

Ftr MoI is 100% town. I don't want to share why though because I want to keep using this town read, but its something dicknose did, and to a lesser extent MoI did.

@BK- You'll understand if I ignore your super secret town tell. You're even welcome to try and explain it. But if it's not better than Glork's (which didn't convince me), I wouldn't be taking him off the table.

If not, read the following three posts.

Spoiler: Previously incorrect town tell

What's the Super Glork Towntell?

It wouldn't be Super Glork if it were made so blatantly public.

I'll give you hint, though. JasonT showed an inconsistency in his depths-of-thought that is not commonly found in scum.

Fair enough on the "townhunting" (or, as it's more commonly called, "PoE") point. I have noticed that I've been doing this since I got back. FWIW, it's something I did both in My Little Pony Mafia and WINvitational. I don't think scumhunting-by-Process-of-Elimination is a bad thing, but I do agree that it's probably overdone.

But since you asked so nicely, I'll explain my jasontownread.
It actually stemmed when someone on my team (chamber, I think) said jason's Post 164 looked like it had been carefully crafted, because of the out-of-order examples on bandwagoning. That prompted me to go back and look at what else jason had done, and what I found was really interesting.
While I agree that the post was clearly structured to make a point, take a look at Post 125, Post 127, and Post 161. Jason plainly asks for a game, states his intent to read through it to get a beat on Grey, and then

so very casually clears GreyICE

after reading it. The manner of language, unless Jason is scum

with GreyICE

speaks to a protown mindset. Scum would be more interested in blahblahblah-let-me-get-town-cred-for-buddying-GreyTown. And not only that, but immediately after saying he's not concerned with Grey, he asks Grey why he's going lurkerhunting... again, to what end would JasonScum do that?

So, what motivation does Jason have for asking for & reading through a game, and just going "ok, yeah, he's town" and then grill Grey on MoS/CoolDog, and make a thought-out, constructed case against Slaxx? Well, as town the motivation is obvious, assuming Jason is a straight shooter. He thinks Grey's town but wants Grey's focus on more productive things, and he wants attention brought to Slaxx. As scum, I'm having a lot of difficulty finding any motivation (again, unless he's scum *with* Grey).

Basically, unless something happens to change my opinion on Grey, I'm not really interested in pursuing Jason. Naturally, it's possible he's pulled the wool over my eyes, but that's not a concern for me at this time.

And so, after much argument and deliberation, Mastermind of Sin was dragged to the noose. He took it with dignity. As the rope was let go of, jason and Leela quickly slit the throats of CooLDoG and Porochaz. Afterwards, they sat down to write their report to The Don.

Mastermind of Sin, Townie, lynched Day 5
CooLDoG, Townie, endgamed
Porochaz, Tracker, endgamed

The Mafia of Captain Leela, jasonT1981, and DeltaWave

, win the game

[MagnaofIllusion]

I think the scum team is PV and Toro. Could be PV and Syndrome, but I'm pretty sure on PV.

This is a what not a why. Why are you certain that PV is scum? Why isn't Johnny a likely scum?

I've spent a significant amount of time looking at ISO and analyzing play. Just saying "I think" doesn't do anything for me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Can you go into details on this?

Read my ISO. I think I've already pretty well discussed the Yates interactions that led me to this conclusion. Maybe I will have time later to go over specifics AGAIN tomorrow.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@BK- You'll understand if I ignore your super secret town tell. You're even welcome to try and explain it. But if it's not better than Glork's (which didn't convince me), I wouldn't be taking him off the table.

You seem to be under the delusion there is any chance you can get a mislynch on me. You probably should readjust that expectation.