Newbie 1351: Hyrule's Under Attack.. Interesting..-GAME OVER

[fferyllt]

Micro 137: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

GM replaced in and was scum, scum win. Not seeing the sorts of long-ass cases GM is making here. Not seeing the repetitive hectoring. Not seeing the appeals to the aether.

But, it doesn't look like she came under much prresure early in the game either. Also, way lower volume of posts and wow...better, tighter, more well thought out argumentation as scum apparently than as town.

Inconclusive, but it adds a little weight to the theory that GM is being terribad town.

UNVOTE: goodmorning

Re that sig bet, it's a sucker bet. With 4 out of 9 players in her list she's got a good chance of netting at least one.

[fferyllt]

Ok, since GM didn't comment on this, I'll ask quite directly, and offer anyone the chance to answer:

Why would player A ask player B about player B's read of player A and only player A?

I cannot come up with an answer that satisfies me other than player A is scum and is trying to gauge how well they are coming across.

Back to work for now.

I don't like to answer for others, but I have seen a player do this as town pretty frequently. I don't understand what she thinks she gains from asking the question, but she's pretty good at figuring out some town players to cooperate with early in a game. OTOH, based purely on odds the player I am thinking of should usually be right about a fair number of her town reads.

[fferyllt]

Although I have a fairly meta-based game, I am distrustful of meta from games I didn't play. It's hard after the fact to put myself into the game. The questions and observations other players made may not be what I would have posted at that point at all. To be useful meta has to be both deep and varied, and for me it's better if it is experienced meta. That's been one huge learning from playing in an environment where thare are gazillions of prior games to look at, but very little personal experience with players.

This is probably good for my game. It forces me to work in the realm of objective and relative tells here.

[goodmorning]

FIVE MINUTE POST GO

Re that sig bet, it's a sucker bet. With 4 out of 9 players in her list she's got a good chance of netting at least one.

I said both. Both it must be or I lose.

As for your metaing, you may want to glance over Newbie 1305 for an example of me as less eloquent scum.

Sorry that gut doesn't float your boat. :[

@Fe: I asked you specifically about me because I'm either aware of or not interested in your reads on others. You've made your stances on most of the players pretty clear, to my mind.

[Mac]

This game is going to be verrrryy interesting.
Maybe I won't really have to put on my IC hat?

That said, the debating over theory is an interesting study of playstyles but probably not doing much to advance the gamestate. I mean, keep being awesome and all that, but does anyone have any tentative reads?

Fro is talking a lot about being scum, but I have no idea what I think that means.
fffffffff is giving me Townfeels so far.
Revenus is behaving himself. This is interesting.

Disagreeing with someone doesn't mean you're not on the same team.

Also. Case or it didn't happen, I don't want you guys to get in the habit of (and keep) voting without any reasoning at all.

You may not want to share ALL your reasoning right now (there are arguments about how it may help Scum, though I personally am for complete transparency at the moment), but at least one reason.

My case is mostly your lack of case for voting Fropome, while indicating you liked Eye's deras case/vote.

You're going after low-haning newb fruit.

ff, I read the underlined as you saying GM was attacking newbs. I'm not quite sure what the 'low-hanging' part of it translates as, could you clear that up? But anyway, my point is that the bolded part of GM's post comes across as her saying that pretty much everyone in this game has a decent grasp of mafia as it is and there's no need for her to help people out other than post structuring etc.

It kinda makes your original point redundant, because she's stated that she doesn't feel anyone is a raw newb that, as you put it, she can attack.

On the other hand, your reference to Micro 137 is a bit redundant because the game mechanics were TOTALLY different. I was also scum in that game. It was nightless, meaning we had to drive the town to mislynch two of their own rather than us. She's a very clever player: look at our scum QT where she practically holds my hand as I stumble my way through the first 10 or so pages.

She did make similar styled cases to the one she made on you in that game: one on why I was newbtown and one on why TNE was scum (one more too, but I forget which.) That's worth remembering - but it could also be her general casestyle and playstyle.

Anyway, it's re-read time for the posts I've missed. Bare with me.

[fferyllt]

FIVE MINUTE POST GO

Re that sig bet, it's a sucker bet. With 4 out of 9 players in her list she's got a good chance of netting at least one.

Sorry that gut doesn't float your boat. :[

gut is convenient when you can't build a case. It's safe as scum, especially on a player you don't know at all, and that the majority of players have no experience with.

I'm not totally dissing gut. Gut points me in the right direction frequently. I don't try to peddle my gut to other players, though, not without supporting data.

[fferyllt]

@ Mac - thanks for the nightless reminder. That changes things. I originally read that game a few days ago knowing it was nightless. When I reread it this morning, I focused on the iso and didn't remember that.

[Mac]

@@Mac: Couple things I want to point out real quick before I go back to casebuilding:
1. Soft defending is usually Town IMO.

Sometimes. Sometimes not. It's a null tell but still worth remembering.

[Mac]

@ Mac - thanks for the nightless reminder. That changes things. I originally read that game a few days ago knowing it was nightless. When I reread it this morning, I focused on the iso and didn't remember that.

Yeah, it has to be remembered as nightless.

In an average scum game, you are trying to avoid being lynched and then you can kill off people in a nightkill. In a game of nightless, you are actively trying to push the town into mislynches.

It's not the greatest game for meta'ing

Would you also be able to answer the question I posed in the first paragraph? Please.

[fferyllt]

@Mac again, "low hanging new fruit" - IME newbs drop scummy looking posts no matter what their alignment. IMO it takes time to assess their posts, and for me it comes down to relative tells - is the body of their work pro-town? An occasional scummy sounding clanger is not always a good indicator.

Deras is a good example. He's dropped what I consider some classic objective tells, but he's also showing a protown PoV in the questions he's asking and observations he's making. GM's "attaboy" about Eye's post where he voted Deras was a big ping for me. I know what she's said about the post since then. It doesn't erase what that post looks like standing on its own.

[fferyllt]

On a philosophical note, I hardly ever see experienced scum drop classic objective tells. The evolution of objective tells is almost an Hegelian progression. You negate something, negate it again and you don't get back to your starting place.

[Mac]

I re-read GM's case on ff. Some of it does actually make alot of sense, particularly a) the point of ff saying GM was scummy for attacking the easy targets whilst she herself was attacking them and b) the point about everyone have something that bothered them.

Point B) is pretty interesting because I found myself doing that as scum in 137 in order to seem confused and appear town. It pretty much worked. That's very interesting indeed.

However, some of it does appear to be a case of GM suffering from tunnelvision.

Right now you both seem to be set on each other being scum: lack of involvement from others suggests this could be town v town, and the scum are sitting back. It's highly unlikely it's scum v scum IMO.

[fferyllt]

What easy targets have I attacked? I wouldn't call GM an easy target. Do you mean Carey? Although I didn't stay on him, I do think that pressure-voting is an effective way to get a lurker to engage.

[fferyllt]

That said, Carey's engagement since some mounting pressure has been pretty terrible, amounting to "I've posted nothing but null fluff!" invoking V/LA without having made it official, etc.

[Mac]

You pretty much have Carey as a top scumread, and Deras as null leaning scum. That's similar to what GM has at the moment IIRC.

@Mac again, "low hanging new fruit" - IME newbs drop scummy looking posts no matter what their alignment. IMO it takes time to assess their posts, and for me it comes down to relative tells - is the body of their work pro-town? An occasional scummy sounding clanger is not always a good indicator.

Deras is a good example. He's dropped what I consider some classic objective tells, but he's also showing a protown PoV in the questions he's asking and observations he's making. GM's "attaboy" about Eye's post where he voted Deras was a big ping for me. I know what she's said about the post since then. It doesn't erase what that post looks like standing on its own.

As for this, if the new guys drop scummy tells that's their own fault and not good for the town. It's something that will be learned if they are lynched for it. But to accuse GM of attacking someone for dropping a scummy tell is really terrible, you're basically letting someone off the hook because they are a newb. You said it yourself - your previous scum game you used being a newb to your advantage, didn't you?

[goodmorning]

I have Carey as a weak Townread and Deras ay Null-leaning-Town.

[fferyllt]

My read of Deras is not null leaning scum any more, and I did not go after him the way I would an experienced player with that sort of read.

Mac, if you've read my first game, then you know your characterization there is way off the mark. In my first game I did not indicate I was a newb to mafia, I referred to prior experience and I let the other players go along their merry way when they decided I was relatively inexperienced. I played a clean, careful game and most of town had me high in their townie list. By day 3 one town player was starting to wonder about me based on something I did intentionally because I'd do it as town, too.

[Mac]

But can't you see how your suggestion that GM is going after "low-hanging newb fruit" is incorrect and, if I'm honest, a little anti-town?

I haven't read that game yet, I've no idea why I thought that if that's not the case. Maybe I misrepped what someone said in the thread.

[fferyllt]

Mac, what are your thoughts about this?

In post 170, goodmorning wrote:

The good news is that Scum can't NK me or I'll flip, so if there's a Doc it throws the choice "IC or Towniest, who will Scum kill" right out the window.

I don't like this reasoning, I feel like you're setting up an excuse because you KNOW you won't be NK no matter what.

If GM has responded to this, I haven't seen it.

[fferyllt]

But can't you see how your suggestion that GM is going after "low-hanging newb fruit" is incorrect and, if I'm honest, a little anti-town?

I haven't read that game yet, I've no idea why I thought that if that's not the case. Maybe I misrepped what someone said in the thread.

I have lots of old experience lynching n00b town who posted something scummy. Course corrections ftw. If you think that taking time to assess newbs is antitown, then we have different ideas about what protown is.

[Mac]

It looks really bad when taken out of context. I believe she's referring to 2/4 scum being in a list talking about a sigbet? But still. it's a poor post and I'd like her to explain it more. I'd also expect a bit better from her than that if I'm honest.

[Mac]

But can't you see how your suggestion that GM is going after "low-hanging newb fruit" is incorrect and, if I'm honest, a little anti-town?

I haven't read that game yet, I've no idea why I thought that if that's not the case. Maybe I misrepped what someone said in the thread.

I have lots of old experience lynching n00b town who posted something scummy. Course corrections ftw. If you think that taking time to assess newbs is antitown, then we have different ideas about what protown is.

Well, that's not what I said. Attacking GM based on her pressuring people for dropping scumtells is anti-town.

[fferyllt]

It looks really bad when taken out of context. I believe she's referring to 2/4 scum being in a list talking about a sigbet? But still. it's a poor post and I'd like her to explain it more. I'd also expect a bit better from her than that if I'm honest.

What? I think you're talking about a different post.

[fferyllt]

But can't you see how your suggestion that GM is going after "low-hanging newb fruit" is incorrect and, if I'm honest, a little anti-town?

I haven't read that game yet, I've no idea why I thought that if that's not the case. Maybe I misrepped what someone said in the thread.

I have lots of old experience lynching n00b town who posted something scummy. Course corrections ftw. If you think that taking time to assess newbs is antitown, then we have different ideas about what protown is.

Well, that's not what I said. Attacking GM based on her pressuring people for dropping scumtells is anti-town.

That's not what she did, and it's not what I did either.

She praised another player for pressuring a n00b about an ancient scumtell that is hardly useful anymore except to identify n00bs IME, while staying away from that bandwagon herself. And that is what I called her on.

[fferyllt]

Mac, what is your read on Carey?