Micro 158: borkgame (Game Over)

[Selkies]

This is good. Let’s ISO Icebox and see what we find.

I don't like that you started with this; bunny-hopping off some light suspicions by DBK to launch a case. Opportunistic.

Narrative spinning. DBK bought my attention to Icebox, I expressed agreement. If I wanted to be opportunistic, why wouldn't I stick on Sven who DBK also had down as scum and who I previously pushed for too?

If this is a serious reason, it really sucks. It’s not buddying; it’s just pointing out that somebody is enjoyable to play with. If this is a RVS vote, I’m not seeing what it’s achieving.

It's building a wagon. Which helps get us out of RVS. Which is pro-town. The fact that you can't grok that is what feels so entirely fabricated.

Nope. Because in RVS I repeatedly asked Icebox to wagon Sven with me and they ignored me completely. Read the first pages again.

So first off, no mention whatsoever of the Rach wagon at L-1. At all. It’s a mine of information, much more than anything we’ve had so far, you have two people, and you failed to comment on it? Really?

Did you just try to fault someone for pursuing a completely valid direction of questioning? Mhmmm yes you did. By deflecting off what he []did say[/] and instead focusing on what he []didn't say.[/] Everyone else was already talking about my vote putting Rach to L-1, his input wouldn't have added anything of merit. Instead, he saw something no one was talking about, and pursued it. That's town.

Yes I did. Because considering that Icebox had Rach as scum later in the game, I thought it VERY suspicious that they didn't even remotely comment on the Rach wagon.

---

Re: Varsoon (not going to bother quoting because walls)
I don't like how you start with "Varsoons posts are bad" and highlight that he doesn't like RVS. RVS is inefficient and generally sucky. There's nothing bad about disliking RVS.
I also don't like how you end with "I think there's at least one scum between Varsoon and Icebox.", in context with your poor arguments for both of them being scum. Hence my accusation of you lining up lynches.

Nobody likes RVS, but you can agree that it's necessary to start a game. Neither of my arguments were poor--especially with your critique of the Icebox case I think you're missing a lot of info. I end up with "at least one scum between Varsoon and Icebox" tells you that both are in my scumpile and I was reasonably certain of this, anything else is putting words into my mouth.

[Majiffy]

@Majiffy:

That tree.

Stop barking up it.

I don't understand what you mean by this.

The line of questioning you were going after was essentially null. But you get an A for effort!

[Majiffy]

For fucks sake STOP RESPONDING IN BOLD INSIDE THE QUOTE IT TURNS INTO A FUCKING FORMATTING NIGHTMARE

[Selkies]

Cool.

Now go wagon Sven.

Right here.

[Majiffy]

I will respond to ONE more fucking post of yours where you do that, and that's it. if you ever do it again, I will flat-out ignore it.

[Selkies]

Heh. I mostly like what you say here, even though you are saying it about my partner. But, my game style - though I've always thought it's pretty fast and furious - is much more deliberative. It's getting left in the dust by orcinus.

I'm getting a townvibe on Majiffy here.

-f

This is good. Let’s ISO Icebox and see what we find.

I don't like that you started with this; bunny-hopping off some light suspicions by DBK to launch a case. Opportunistic.

If this is a serious reason, it really sucks. It’s not buddying; it’s just pointing out that somebody is enjoyable to play with. If this is a RVS vote, I’m not seeing what it’s achieving.

It's building a wagon. Which helps get us out of RVS. Which is pro-town. The fact that you can't grok that is what feels so entirely fabricated.

So first off, no mention whatsoever of the Rach wagon at L-1. At all. It’s a mine of information, much more than anything we’ve had so far, you have two people, and you failed to comment on it? Really?

Did you just try to fault someone for pursuing a completely valid direction of questioning? Mhmmm yes you did. By deflecting off what he

did say

and instead focusing on what he

didn't say.

Everyone else was already talking about my vote putting Rach to L-1, his input wouldn't have added anything of merit. Instead, he saw something no one was talking about, and pursued it. That's town.

---

Re: Varsoon (not going to bother quoting because walls)
I don't like how you start with "Varsoons posts are bad" and highlight that he doesn't like RVS. RVS is inefficient and generally sucky. There's nothing bad about disliking RVS.
I also don't like how you end with "I think there's at least one scum between Varsoon and Icebox.", in context with your poor arguments for both of them being scum. Hence my accusation of you lining up lynches.

[Selkies]

Fun fact: "You aren't allowed to have multiple scum reads" and "you're lining up lynches" aren't even close to logically congruent statements.

I had two scumreads. I expressed my belief that there was at least one scum in the two.

Tell me how this is lining up lynches, because it's sort of not.

[Selkies]

Gah. Can we stop talking about RVS theory?

- f

[Majiffy]

Narrative spinning. DBK bought my attention to Icebox, I expressed agreement. If I wanted to be opportunistic, why wouldn't I stick on Sven who DBK also had down as scum and who I previously pushed for too?

It isn't narrative "spinning". It's narrative. It's a fucking word-for-word what-the-fuck-happened.

Spoiler:

Nope. Because in RVS I repeatedly asked Icebox to wagon Sven with me and they ignored me completely. Read the first pages again.

Maybe he wasn't feeling a Sven wagon. Maybe he had a town read on him. I can't exactly answer for him, being that I'm not inside his head.

Yes I did.

No further questions.

Nobody likes RVS, but you can agree that it's necessary to start a game. Neither of my arguments were poor--especially with your critique of the Icebox case I think you're missing a lot of info. I end up with "at least one scum between Varsoon and Icebox" tells you that both are in my scumpile and I was reasonably certain of this, anything else is putting words into my mouth.

I know a number of people actually enjoy RVS, so "nobody likes RVS" is factually false.

I also disagree it's necessary to start the game.

[Majiffy]

Fun fact: "You aren't allowed to have multiple scum reads" and "you're lining up lynches" aren't even close to logically congruent statements.

I had two scumreads. I expressed my belief that there was at least one scum in the two.

Tell me how this is lining up lynches, because it's sort of not.

Because lo-and-behold when one flips town, guess what you're going to advocate next? A blind lynch on the other.

[Icebox]

Just throughly read Varsoon's #200. That's town as hell and I see no need to continue this further.
UNVOTE:

But my questions still stand.

[Svenskt Stål]

I am about to enter dreamland. I will dream of a game where I am town with selkies and majiffy as that would be a win in almost all scenarios.

[Selkies]

It isn't narrative "spinning". It's narrative. It's a fucking word-for-word what-the-fuck-happened.

You need to support this. I like how you ignored my point on why calling me opportunistic is a joke.

Maybe he wasn't feeling a Sven wagon. Maybe he had a town read on him. I can't exactly answer for him, being that I'm not inside his head.

This doesn't change a few things.

Firstly, in my case, I said that Icebox's vote on rach was pointless, you said that Icebox was town for voting Rach which builds wagons. However, Icebox's vote on Rach was the first (so out goes the wagon-building hypothesis), and I was encouraging Icebox to build a wagon on Sven (and again). So this is patently false.

No further questions.

So you agree with me?

I know a number of people actually enjoy RVS, so "nobody likes RVS" is factually false.

I also disagree it's necessary to start the game.

Seriously? Weird people.

But you aren't seeing the points I bring up in the Varsoon case. I'm not calling him scum for having different opinions about RVS. I'm calling him scum for labeling everything as "RVS lameness" while there was usable information that he should have recognized, for his lack of a vote on Sven.

[Svenskt Stål]

BO, I am not done with you by a long shot.

@ Jennifer and disturbed one, Pick it up, I will be coming for both of you if you dont.

LOL at selkies being at 110 posts already, what a fucking hydra.

[Varsoon]

Oh nuts, can someone fix that spoiler tag for me?

Done.

Thanks, bro.

[Selkies]

Fun fact: "You aren't allowed to have multiple scum reads" and "you're lining up lynches" aren't even close to logically congruent statements.

I had two scumreads. I expressed my belief that there was at least one scum in the two.

Tell me how this is lining up lynches, because it's sort of not.

Because lo-and-behold when one flips town, guess what you're going to advocate next? A blind lynch on the other.

You can't extrapolate my actions. Don't presume that you can predict my actions, because that's just stupid as fuck. "Oh yeah, Orcinus will do X which makes him scummy, hurr durr".

I have two scum reads. With one's flip, I would have more information, and thus I would reevaluate my reads. You can only accuse me of lining up lynches after I actually pursue the lynch, as it stands, I had two scumreads, and obviously I would want them both lynched given no new information.

You're grasping at straws.


To prevent future confusion, stressing again that Icebox is a town read for his reaction to my questioning.

[Majiffy]

It isn't narrative "spinning". It's narrative. It's a fucking word-for-word what-the-fuck-happened.

You need to support this. I like how you ignored my point on why calling me opportunistic is a joke.

Oh I stopped reading it after the second sentence, I figured you were just elaborating on your bullshit.

Sven was an easy lynch, and you could be called out for it. You were sidelining your vote on someone DBK could pick up the mantle for later in the day phase when it got down to the nitty gritty and we were looking for valid wagons to end the day with.

Am I giving you too much credit for your level of intelligence and foresight?

This doesn't change a few things.

Firstly, in my case, I said that Icebox's vote on rach was pointless, you said that Icebox was town for voting Rach which builds wagons. However, Icebox's vote on Rach was the first (so out goes the wagon-building hypothesis), and I was encouraging Icebox to build a wagon on Sven (and again). So this is patently false.

Shrug. I don't care much as that's got nothing to do with why I'm reading Icebox as town. Go pester him about it.

So you agree with me?

Actually, you'll notice that

you agreed with me

.

Seriously? Weird people.

Not really. A lot of people get their strongest reads from early-game interactions.

But you aren't seeing the points I bring up in the Varsoon case. I'm not calling him scum for having different opinions about RVS. I'm calling him scum for labeling everything as "RVS lameness" while there was usable information that he should have recognized, for his lack of a vote on Sven.

I wasn't arguing the case; I didn't read it past the first few quotes and the last few lines. I'm arguing that you're scum for some of the content therein that I

did

read. So clearly

you're

the one not seeing points here.

[Majiffy]

You can't extrapolate my actions. Don't presume that you can predict my actions, because that's just stupid as fuck. "Oh yeah, Orcinus will do X which makes him scummy, hurr durr".

I have two scum reads. With one's flip, I would have more information, and thus I would reevaluate my reads. You can only accuse me of lining up lynches after I actually pursue the lynch, as it stands, I had two scumreads, and obviously I would want them both lynched given no new information.

You're grasping at straws.

You set up a 1v1 with your statement. There is no other logical end to that route than lining up lynches. That's the long and short of it.

I can prove this syllogistically if you really need me to.

[Selkies]

Oh I stopped reading it after the second sentence, I figured you were just elaborating on your bullshit.

Sven was an easy lynch, and you could be called out for it. You were sidelining your vote on someone DBK could pick up the mantle for later in the day phase when it got down to the nitty gritty and we were looking for valid wagons to end the day with.

Am I giving you too much credit for your level of intelligence and foresight?

I could be called out for an Icebox lynch too given that I was the first person to build an actual case on them, this argument makes no sense.

Shrug. I don't care much as that's got nothing to do with why I'm reading Icebox as town. Go pester him about it.

Sure.

Actually, you'll notice that

you agreed with me

.

What the hell?

You're calling me scum in part for my allegedly bad case on Icebox. You said that it wasn't suspicious for Icebox to be ignoring Rach because he's pointing out stuff nobody's looking at, I'm saying that it is given that Icebox had Rach as a scum-read later on and didn't comment one iota on the L-1 wagon until I asked them about it. You agreed. So the point stands. Thanks.

I wasn't arguing the case; I didn't read it past the first few quotes and the last few lines. I'm arguing that you're scum for some of the content therein that I

did

read. So clearly

you're

the one not seeing points here.

So you just admitted to cherry picking arguments, and given that your 'cherries' are being refuted one by one...really, I expected better.

[Selkies]

You can't extrapolate my actions. Don't presume that you can predict my actions, because that's just stupid as fuck. "Oh yeah, Orcinus will do X which makes him scummy, hurr durr".

I have two scum reads. With one's flip, I would have more information, and thus I would reevaluate my reads. You can only accuse me of lining up lynches after I actually pursue the lynch, as it stands, I had two scumreads, and obviously I would want them both lynched given no new information.

You're grasping at straws.

You set up a 1v1 with your statement. There is no other logical end to that route than lining up lynches. That's the long and short of it.

I can prove this syllogistically if you really need me to.

So basically, "semantics".

lol

[Selkies]

You can't extrapolate my actions. Don't presume that you can predict my actions, because that's just stupid as fuck. "Oh yeah, Orcinus will do X which makes him scummy, hurr durr".

I have two scum reads. With one's flip, I would have more information, and thus I would reevaluate my reads. You can only accuse me of lining up lynches after I actually pursue the lynch, as it stands, I had two scumreads, and obviously I would want them both lynched given no new information.

You're grasping at straws.

You set up a 1v1 with your statement. There is no other logical end to that route than lining up lynches. That's the long and short of it.

I can prove this syllogistically if you really need me to.

No proof needed. I do logic IRL.

IMO my other half has a great scumdar. It's why I agreed to hydra.

Who else are you currently reading as scum?

- f

[Selkies]

^^ i.e. I don't think orcinus sees it as 1v1, though that's how it parses.

I definitely don't see it that way.

- f

[Selkies]

And actually, this accusation of lining up lynches makes no sense given that I switched off Icebox later.

Why exactly isn't my vote on Varsoon?

[Majiffy]

I could be called out for an Icebox lynch too given that I was the first person to build an actual case on them, this argument makes no sense.

But you'd shift a lot of the blame to DBK for putting your eye on him.

What the hell?

You're calling me scum in part for my allegedly bad case on Icebox. You said that it wasn't suspicious for Icebox to be ignoring Rach because he's pointing out stuff nobody's looking at, I'm saying that it is given that Icebox had Rach as a scum-read later on and didn't comment one iota on the L-1 wagon until I asked them about it. You agreed. So the point stands. Thanks.

You're ignoring that I addressed this when I made the point; everyone else was already commenting on the Rach L-1 wagon and his participation wasn't going to add anything. So my point stands that you admitted you were just deflecting off his very real scumhunting in favor of a bullshit argument. Thanks.

So you just admitted to cherry picking arguments, and given that your 'cherries' are being refuted one by one...really, I expected better.

Cherry picking arguments? No, not at all. Reading half your post as a low-fat substitute to the full-fat bullshit? Yes.

You haven't refuted shit.

[Varsoon]

Everyone is so active and I gotta meet up with a dude for lunch so this'll be a quick in and out.
Mafia resembles my romantic endeavors more and more every day.

@Jennifer:
- I think Icebox is weird for pulling that out because he never mentioned anything about it earlier, when it definitely happened much earlier. Maybe that's partially a hydra thing where one head didn't see it and the other one was catching up. I don't think it's weird how Icebox switched to RachMarie in that situation because one head sees Varsoon as the best vote, one has RachMarie.
- No, I don't think town always fully explains their reads, but explaining reads does give more information, this information leads toward more discussion, so it's a good thing it happens; whether the actual reads are right though, is a different judgment.

Sven's comment on "increasing the heat on him" and being fairly reactive

in the same post

just adds to the juicy scumness.

I don't like how heavily convinced Varsoon is that Selkies is the best vote. His case seems too weak. Also, while he may not believe in voting in RVS, I don't think it's very good to completely ignore the RVS in a game and not take it into account.

As far as my simultaneously vindicating Rach as town and others as scum, I often make links in my head thinking "These two can't be a scum team" because it can help my PoE in the long run if I ever need it to make a decision. If you don't believe me, check my meta, but it's clear how you feel about that. I respect it, anyway. Meta's not worth my time.

Now here's the thing: I knew Varsoon IRL a while back, like four years ago. Dude's clever. I'm not surprised he placed a trap with post 50. I'm not surprised he placed a post-quota trap in his first newbie game. So I don't think he's lying, especially when he tries to describe how things can be better than RVS.

@Varsoon
- In your "method" of getting the game rolling, how does the agreed person that has the L-(scum) wagon convince the rest of the people that they're town? Like, what content should they use to defend themselves?
- Did you ever give a solid reason as to why you think Sven is your 2nd/3rd scum read?
- Is there any reason you prefer a vote on Selkies (making him a lame L-4) over Sven, your 2nd/3rd scum read (making him a more-productive L-2 wagon)?

Varsoon, are you here?

Only half of Selkies is pro RVS. /jecklyll-hyde

-f

Why is opinion on RVS even alignment indicative

It's not. Town or scum, I won't do RVS unless/until I'm convinced that I'm missing pro-team opportunities by not putting down substance-lite votes.

This is addressed to Bo and Varsoon

Bo: Why are you and Varsoon still stuck on asking RVS related questions, considering that it's not alignment indicative

Don't like Selkies' 141. Probably because I have a firm townread on Ice, and this looks like opportunistic fabrication of a case.

Really don't like 143 either. Looks like lining up lynches. This can die.
VOTE: Selkies

DBK, I could kiss you for how town you are. Let's be friends.

I just remembered that Majiffy doesn't play RVS.

Get this man a prize for such an astute observation anyone that has played with me (read: 75% of the playerlist) should have made 5 pages ago.

So I would love to hear from Majiffy why he voted Rach to L-1.

The reason I gave in the post I voted her in.

Waginz.

I

do not

like the Varsoon wagon. Not for any particular reason, I haven't payed much attention to the actual reasons being given, but I don't like how it's building. No excitement, just a lot of ... votes. I'll be starting here when I finish catching up.

I may have missed it but what the fuck is NLS?

Lets do this until I think of something better

VOTE MAJIFFY

.

Play with fire, you gon' get burned.

I meta girl once, it turned out horribly.
Dohoho.

Get the fuck out, lol

Anyway I like this post as a whole. You can be town too.

And actually, here you say that you weren't even sure what you should make of people calling you out for post 50.

This is almost laughable.

God I am really disliking every post you make.

Majiffy, nice start. But what is so town about icebox hydra slip?

It wasn't the slip, it was the post itself.

Seemed to come from a town mindset.

Oh I missed that you had bo doesnt know as town, we should discuss that.

Yeah lets discuss your poor choice of a vote. Why are you voting DBK? He's pretty much my strongest townread.

Workin on it fuckers. Y'all are fast.

WTF???

Why are we voting Svenskt?

UNVOTE: Svenskt

-f

I didn't put my vote on someone I thought as scummy that early because I was making that statement in passing. Furthermore, I didn't want to start a wagon nearly as much as I wanted to gauge the reaction of that player and other players. Stating someone is scummy and not placing a vote is a bit on an unconventional play, neh? It's sure to get the ball rolling somewhere.

Why do you think facking "being scummy" is a good idea for getting a reaction?

Regardless, please forget about last game.
I was town last game.
You won't know if I am town or not this game until I flip.

My point was that you don't do RVS regardless of your alignment.

But, to be fair, my comment about absolute statements and my scum-read without a vote was really reaction testing more than it was serious posting. It, for the most part, worked out.

What kind of reaction were you expecting to get from doing so?

@Majiffy:

That tree.

Stop barking up it.

I don't understand what you mean by this.

-G

For fucks sake STOP RESPONDING IN BOLD INSIDE THE QUOTE IT TURNS INTO A FUCKING FORMATTING NIGHTMARE

Just throughly read Varsoon's #200. That's town as hell and I see no need to continue this further.
UNVOTE:

But my questions still stand.

Dropping our RVS discussion in lieu of it not leading us anywhere. It's interesting, and you can PM me post-game if you want to chat.
Sven and Selk are my highest scumreads right now.
If both flip town, seriously gonna reconsider my Icebox and Majiffy reads.
Pretty stable on everyone else.
Selk, I hate your formatting.
Bork, that's such a slip, c'mon man. When I build a case against you, I won't forget this.
We're voting Sven because he's scummy.
A Sven wagon would have been easier for me to push, but that's too easy and I feel strongly about my Selk vote and wagon a lot more. Why? Reasons. He'll get them after he squirms a bit longer.
Icebox, gonna get to your questions now, but I'm glad that I could vindicate myself. I was bummed out about my role-pm, but I hope I can pull us a town win this time instead of how I was pretty much responsible for our loss last time:
Faking scumminess is good for early reaction tests, even if it gets you quickhammered because you'll flip town and it'll narrow the suspects to the wagon. Also, it generates content from reactions.
RVS is a player-construction and I don't like to take part in it.
I was expecting it to be another scum litmus test. The different extremes and genuine levels of response where what I was looking for, as well as content to work with outside of LOLRVS. While there was some RVS-generated content, I wasn't satisfied with it.

Anyway,

VOTE: Selkies
VOTE: Selkies
VOTE: Selkies
VOTE: Selkies
VOTE: Selkies

That's five votes, get lynched.