A uPick of Ice & Fire - Day 12 - #REKT?

[Amrun]

I probalby should have declared v/la this whole week but I was trying to be GOOD and shit. Catch up tonight.

[macmollie]

the irony of this post is most astounding

Sure, it's a direct parallel.

I bet you felt really smart with that post

I guess when you say "8>4" it makes what you say more than perpendicular

a reach out would have been nice btw

[Goat on a Raft]

We've reached out before. Now we're just annoyed at you for continuing to find any reason you can to feed this scumread, which clearly boils down to the fact that this head had scumreads earlier on in the Red Wedding game than he has here, which you have interpreted in the most knuckle-grindingly opaque way possible. Kindly take your read and stuff it.

[macmollie]

some1 is grumpy!

[Goat on a Raft]

YEP.

[displaced]

yeah Im not the sort to write essays really ...

ooba I dont get what he's done that's so scummy ? I also think his Garruk vote is reasonable (the post where garruk brought up traitor possibilities got my hackles up)
thor seems pompous and I really dont like being offered up for vigbait so im trying to not let that cloud my judgement
lots of players seem town but I have a big weakness in giving rhetorically skilled players town reads too often so Im being more cautious
I also think lots of players are using overly ornate language to justify townreads that really arent that solid

[ChannelDelibird]

Essays are not necessary. You don't have to write an essay to state opinions on major game issues, however.

In other news, please get an avatar.

[Goat on a Raft]

Essays are not necessary. You don't have to write an essay to state opinions on major game issues, however.

In other news, please get an avatar.

FUCK, THIS HEAD WAS DOING SO WELL

[Goat on a Raft]

I think that's this head's cue to drop offline for a bit. Back later tonight. If a boulder were to roll through down, squash a random player and take us to night before that happens, we wouldn't complain.

[Garruk Relentless]

Thats easy. Thor is not someone i want lynched today. SafetyDance either.

unvote. Vote: Garruk

Those of you who think im town and are on single vote wagons would do well to consolidate.

See, this is my problem with you. You don't give full explanations on votes. And with this vote all you said was that we were scum. In 56 pages, you should have more reasons. For all of your votes.

Unvote, vote Ooba

-SSK

[Alfred Borden]

Finishing catching up now. Just woke up and I have to go to a friend's in a few minutes so I won't have enough time to meta dive properly today. I'll try to go through stuff on my phone if I get some time but very doubtful I'll be able to get in a full report back.

and the wagon was not moving very quickly at all and was split between lots of even wagons without anyone pushing him too strongly. its just sort of been percolating for awhile. doesnt really seem like a chill out and coast to a scumlynch kind of wagon 2me

Eh, disagree with this. I'm not very good with wagon logic but I think there are a lot of reasons wagons tend to stall out as they have been (well at that point anyway) and it's pretty much impossible for me to tell which until after the flip. I still feel good about this wagon, especially considering my townreads are all on this for the most part.

StupendousMan looks to have given up on trying to reason with the rest of the town, which actually reads as newtown in this context to me.

How so?

I wasn't getting the suspicions at all until AGar laid it out for me, though I can't help wondering whether those who joined the wagon before his post actually had much of a basis. I think he could easily just be a bit slow on the uptake and would certainly expect more out of him in later days, but I don't think we'd be smart lynching here when we could lynch, you know, scum.

Fairly sure I did actually give a reason for why I posted the original vote and I feel like the read's gotten stronger since then. Also, as far as your town case goes, from my understanding, I don't really think he was doing what you think he's doing w.r.t. his Shadoweh suspicions. Unless I'm missing something, I don't see any kind of "I may be suffering from confirmation bias"-type introspection. The Tierce scumread thing is a fair point but what bothers me about it more than anything is the progression into it. The rationale behind it just feels fake to me and it's pretty much impossible to see how he got from A to B.

you hit the nail on the head about sd. he said in our qt that he overwhelmed and that he couldn't keep up and in over his head. I think he would feel it even more so with this playerbase.

Well it's good that we see eye to eye on Safety but I don't really get your reasoning for your StupendousMan townread (I know you mentioned something about him being an easy target, which I agree with, but players considered easy targets generally can still be scum in a particular game and a LOT of his posts have pinged for me). Can you elaborate on that? If you already have, just link me to stuff, I probably missed something since I just woke up and haven't been fully processing stuff.

[Cephrir]

VOTE: Thor

There are only two wagons, and this one is better.

[Cephrir]

Alfred-

basically I meant the case where If "I assume you're scum and then proceed to read posts from you - obviously I'll find them scummy".

Am I misreading this?

[Cephrir]

The Tierce scumread thing is a fair point but what bothers me about it more than anything is the progression into it. The rationale behind it just feels fake to me and it's pretty much impossible to see how he got from A to B.

This is a fair point. I'm not judging the wagon (yet at least), it is somewhat valid, I just don't buy it. I definitely like some of the votes on it better than others and can admit this flip may be useful.

[Alfred Borden]

Alfred-

basically I meant the case where If "I assume you're scum and then proceed to read posts from you - obviously I'll find them scummy".

Am I misreading this?

Oh I'm dumb, I didn't see that he was referring to confirmation bias when he said "Pygmalion" in another post. Without that context, it seemed like he was just bringing up the concept without tying it to his read specifically.

Fair point about this too, but at the same time it seems pretty easy for a player of his experience to fake and a lot of stuff in his posting still really bothers me. I'll try and check his games today if I get the chance.

[Shadoweh]

Nautilis: You aren't really a remarkable presence? It's easy for me to forget you're playing tbh.
Also I don't feel the need to clarify my role any further. I wouldn't marry you even if I could, it would be like living with a religious conservative.

Thats easy. Thor is not someone i want lynched today. SafetyDance either.

unvote. Vote: Garruk

Those of you who think im town and are on single vote wagons would do well to consolidate.

See, this is my problem with you. You don't give full explanations on votes. And with this vote all you said was that we were scum. In 56 pages, you should have more reasons. For all of your votes.

Unvote, vote Ooba

-SSK

Do you think it's fair to hold someone who's voting effectively Not Me to the same standard? He didn't actually say you were scum. I was going to say this is out of nowhere but your partner did say you're more scum-leaning then they are. Hmm. Honestly after isoing you for a second I don't feel as bad about you.

[AGar]

Having half the game in one pile and the other half in another leads literally no trail.

Whatsoever.

It's the next best thing to having no reads in terms of leaving no trail.

Seriously, what the shit?

yes. it is. and I even told you why.

but it probably be useful to you cos you are too inexperienced with that particular tool for it to be of any benefit not to mention you are not even open to it.

which I find interesting. town doesn't try to shut other town's scumhunting techniques. and tbh your blatant bullying is getting old.

I'm just pointing out that you're a scumbag and that I'm onto you. So really, I'm not shutting other town's scumhunting techniques.

He has 8 townreads, 5 neutral reads and 10 scumreads. You're telling me all of his scumbuddies are in neutral? That's pretty much impossible, ignoring the fact that 4 of those 5 are fairly obviously town to anyone with a pulse.

He made a list and threw half of the game into scumreads. There isn't anything that you can filter out of that list.

[AGar]

Gah, I never condensed my fucking posts.

Also, Thor... I asked a preeeeetty specific question in #1252. And you didn't answer it. You give me a sad. (Yes, I re-read Ceph, no I don't like it for lynching. No, I haven't re-read Amrun just yet, yes that's next on the list.)

Yes, you asked me a question, I responded here;

@AGar - a Day 1 lynchbait? Are you serious? Look at the player list, we don't need to be limiting ourself to culling at this stage and it seems silly to choose to do so. Neither of them are being pro town, which is the basic impetus of your Ooba push, but add in Amrun's awkward defense of me or Ceph's aggressive refusal to actually look at motivation and I think they both look worse objectively.

The other part of your question was "I refuse to lynch either of your scumreads (because I don't consider them lynchbait worthy on Day 1...which is a meaningless answer to their scumminess) - who else should we lynch?" Which...is not really a question I can answer functionally.
Hey, AGar, I refuse to lynch anyone you think is scum - who should we lynch? All that is going to get is you randomly picking some meh null read and...what, trying to act excited about that as a compromise lynch wagon of 2?
No.
Also, functionally, I had asked you to defend your position that I disagreed with, and you didn't - making *you* the one breaking the conversation chain (and, indeed, trying to go backwards in it) So...whut?

Ok I'm gonna break this one down because somewhere we've had a communication breakdown. (Paraphrasing)

Post #1252 I say "Thor, you don't like Ooba-lynch. I don't like Amrun/Ceph for D1 lynchbait (because that's what I feel they are, just lynchbait and bad wagons) so what else ya got."
Post #1261/1262 (double post whee!) I lay out my case against Ooba for someone else.
Post #1269 you question "lynchbait" and then say you find Amrun/Ceph objectively worse than Ooba.
Post #1321 I say I got townleanings on both of them, but that was during a 24h 46 page reading binge so I'd re-read them (I didn't get to Amrun last night, instead had personal affairs to tend to).
Post #1355 I ask you answer my question of other options in #1252
Post #1378 is quoted above.

- You never actually gave me anything else to work with. Clearly we're not going to agree on D1 wagons here, which happens, but to say you answered my question when you functionally didn't and then go on the offensive is really just off kilter here.

- You also never actually asked me to defend my position, although had you, you should have realized I had already entrenched my Ooba read several posts beforehand to gather some steam on that wagon.

Agar's post makes some valid sounding points. However the post toally ignores playstyle. I play this way as town - i post reads, when they flip - i quote my own reads and say "Hey i tagged em as scum here". The difference in this game is that the pace has been unrelenting so ive never had time to do a complete reread that i usually do.

Something something something self-meta something something something manipulatable.

[Zdenek]

The problem with pushing 'stronger' scum reads is I wouldn't say I have a super strong one right now. Besides, I wasn't getting anywhere pushing my own. >_> Better to push for what's most likely to happen that's acceptable.

Also ooba voted me before I voted him, so saying he's suspecting me because I'm voting him is the egg before the chicken isn't it?

also I'll be shocked if this post goes through. I'm starting to believe MS is allergic to me @_@

That's all well an good, but I'd really like to hear some words about your read on Ooba.

Eh, disagree here. PeaceBringer replacing out because he felt like people were putting down his playstyle felt more town to me. I think he'd be far less inclined to care as scum.

I'm pretty sure that it's the opposite.

I still don't like Zdenek.

Quadz testing the waters.

Kanye can die for refusing to answer my question about his take on Benmage.

care 2 clarify whether this is a death 4 policy reasons or alignment reasons?

zed can u answer this. ill answer ur q i ignored if u do

It's a bit of both. There's the fact that it seems like bullshit, which is scummy, and there's the fact that you're being difficult which is policy.

[Zdenek]

Eh, Goat on a Raft is still scum, but that's not going anywhere.

I just looked at this:
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p5342787

Typical scum ISO - cast suspicion willy-nilly and then lurk and do nothing, so let's try this.

Vote: Amrun

[Garruk Relentless]

Alright, so, yeah, ooba's pretty fucking scum now.

I'm going to pull out my inner fferylit here(sorry SyrGod!) and point out his, well, bizarre as fuck trajectory on us.

Spoiler: Spoiler because Quote Walls

Mild scum read
Garruk Relentless
Cephrir
Amrun
Shadoweh

His opening post, we're just mild scum.

I don't feel as strongly about Cephrir and Garruk Relentless as the above.

Apparently we do stuff to make him think we're more townie, okay.

- This is a misrep that makes it sound like I never mentioned scumreads before this - kanye and Shadow were also mentioned in the "initial readslist" (although Cephrir and Garruk reduced on the scummy meter in the few pages in between)

Confirmation that we(along with cephrir--who ooba has a similar trajectory with) are less scummy in his eyes than others.

Neutral-
Tierce
MessiahComplex
Alfred's {I didnt like the list in 935}
Garruk {Earlier vibe + Sheeping Syr isn't bad, but two sole posts stating just that rubbed me off as scummy}

You're not - You're a "Neutral-" meaning "leaning scum".

His infamous "reads" post. Doesn't like us sheeping Syr. Sure, why not.

Garruks scum.

unvote. Vote: Garruk

Okay. Without us doing anything, we're now confscum.

I wanna point this out too.

Not as strong scum
Quadz {Earlier vibe + Don't like any of the no.2 suspects - Amrun, Goat or Zed}

This was below us on his 'reads' list. And his last mention of Quadz. Without any indication that his reads have changed, we've apparently become ObvScum while Quadz...isn't?

What I think is going on here is that ooba is trying to redirect attention from himself to another person who is hanging around the bottom of everyone's lists--let's face it, we've been coasting quite a bit this game(although this also partially because people ignore us whenever we try to talk to people) and we are lurking in the "I dunno, could be scum" part of everyone's lists. We are an easy target for scum trying to redirect--which is what I think ooba is doing here.

[Zdenek]

So I agree Ooba's vote on you is bad, but he's been fairly proactive, and the somewhat haphazard changing of reads is less likely to come from scum who want to avoid being called out on read changes; although I'll admit that point's not the strongest.

Kindly read Amrun's ISO, and tell me what you think.

[Garruk Relentless]

Yeah, she's pretty scummy. I think I've said as much. But, likewise, I always read Amrun as scum and am not confident in my read, so I defer to SSK for now.

[Eddard Stark]

- "Alayne Stone"

Day 1, Vc 38

PrideandJoy (1) -

Amrun

ooba (11) -

Alfred Borden, quadz08, PrideandJoy, AGar, Shadoweh, Tierce, Tammy, StupendousMan, Goat on a Raft, Syryana, Garruk Relentless

StupendousMan (1)-

Nautilius

Thor665 (5) -

elleheathen, kanyeknowsbest, macmollie, Benmage, Cephrir

Goat on a Raft (1) -

displaced

Zdenek (1) -

Messiah Complex

Garruk Relentless (2) -

SafetyDance, ooba

Amrun (2) -

Thor665, Zdenek

Not voting (0)-

NO ONE

With 24 alive it takes 13 votes to lynch

• Deadline Date: 1st of October at 17:05 EDT
  
• Deadline Countdown: (expired on 2013-10-01 17:05:01)
  
• Thor and ooba are V/la

Prodding SafetyDance

[Goat on a Raft]

This head was about to express support for Zdenek's Amrun vote but then noticed the thing above about sort-of retroactive V/LA. We'll see what happens when she catches up.