A uPick of Ice & Fire - Day 12 - #REKT?

[SpyreX]

So now, the actual not catching up part.

If, IF, I go today I want it to at least be on the back of real wagons. These floater votes either need to drum up or get with a program. There's way too many scattered votes at this point and toooooo many people getting away without committing to whats going on.

That's one thing I like about AGars recent set - he's went hard and fast on me being town. I don't "get" the angle and I need someone to help explain to me scum-Agar's motive. I really, really think a scum-zd flip means AGar town (almost as much as it means ooba-scum).

elle took the low bar and went under it with the last posts. Benmage looks even more town which is good.

Unovte, Vote: Zdenek

I want to make these compete. If this gets big enough, I am going to reposition for hammers, but if I have to stop the Y U NO VOTE there you go.

I will say that cursory view the AGar wagon looks a lot more town than mine in composition. I feel like there's something in the way these votes are spread that I'm missing, but I can't even get my fingers around it.

[kanyeknowsbest]

But do you actually think my 'pussy footing around with Thor D1' did 'jack shit for anyone' either, when a good portion of the group here admitted to not only ignoring what was in it but not even reading it? A theme that seemed to be carried into Day 2 since most of my questions went unanswered and my arguments about Zdenek and kanye ignored.

So yeah, admittedly - I've become disengaged.

hey elle. can u pls point out to me your argumetns about me which were ignored which helped lead to you becoming disengaged? also i notice that you seem to think zed is scum. why havent you made any comments about him at all today outside of trying to cheerlead agar into placing his vote? are you willing to switch your vote over to zed at this point?

[Shadoweh]

were doin it man
were makin it hapen

Zdenek posts: 0
Elle: Best way to become engaged with the game: Scream at people. If you don't want to cure your disengagement well..

[elleheathen]

Because I don't have a vote today

sadday.

hey elle. can u pls point out to me your argumetns about me which were ignored which helped lead to you becoming disengaged?

Yeah, sure. The ones about you that I could remember/find:

hello, all. i want to lynch garuck and terice and also maybe amrun a little someonje whos good @ finding scum and also town pls tell me what 2 do ty

Why Garruk?

Serious question for people: Is kayneknowsbest's active lurking not scummy to anyone? We've been beating up on lurkers, Amrun, displaced/Spyrex before he's posted (?) but kayne is getting some serious ignore time here. I know he posts small alot but in Mafiastuck he was really active like he was at the beginning and never stopped. Kayne can you please stop it and go back to Day 1 when you were pushing your reads? What do you think about Zdenek ignoring you today?

Don't know what to think about kanye.

A ton of people seem to have town reads on him based on his meta, which I'm hesitant to doubt because I was wrong with Thor in that situation.
His posting style seems scummy to me, as does his ignoring of questions, though both have been stated to be 'kanye normal' regardless of alignment.
I don't know about the active lurking but I've had him in my 'could be scum' sights since he left the Thor wagon with only twelve hours to go to start a new wagon on Garruk without even so much as a read. Maybe it's that there isn't much transition from his post in 1664 where he seems fine with both the Thor and SD wagons but... bad feels.
But then, he doesn't actually explain anything and hasn't answered my question on 'Why Garruk' yet - and that's apparently normal(?) so idk.

It's not much, especially apart from everything as a whole. But altogether it makes the effort feel wasted. /shrug

also i notice that you seem to think zed is scum. why havent you made any comments about him at all today outside of trying to cheerlead agar into placing his vote? are you willing to switch your vote over to zed at this point?

My read on him hasn't changed since my post 1891. I still think those things are scummy and that he could be scum - but I also don't see much point in repeating it.

My vote will stay on Spyrex - because I think he's scum and needs to die.

However, if the incoming loldeadline takes Spy off the table and means it's a choice between Zdenek and someone else, then yes, I would vote Zdenek. Or you.

Elle: Best way to become engaged with the game: Scream at people. If you don't want to cure your disengagement well..

Trying to get back into it - but I suck at screaming at ppl. I'll work on it... lol <3

[Zdenek]

were doin it man
were makin it hapen

Zdenek posts: 0
Elle: Best way to become engaged with the game: Scream at people. If you don't want to cure your disengagement well..

I can guarantee someone is going to try to say the "before I forget" is scummy. That person will instantly become my top suspect.

Why are you warning people about things that you will find scummy?

Shadoweh, you're voting me because I aggravate you? That's cute.

SafetyDance, I still want to know why you chose Nautilus.

Agar's comment about gambling by putting Spyrex at L-1, still makes no sense. I have no idea what he was hoping to win. I also don't understand why he likes Spyrex's conviction about his hammer, since I don't think Spyrex would have done anything differently as either alignment.

But no one's really biting on Naut because they're town and your case (correct me if I'm wrong, but Naut is scum because Nacho isn't hunting scum) is weak/borderline irrational.

- Des

When did you start town reading Nautilus?

The main thing about Zdenek is that he hasn't really done anything this game. #850 is the best post that he's made for the whole game, but it's sort of what I expect from Zdenek regularly. There's no effort to really figure anything out, and he's just seemed detached the whole game. I kinda like some of his strong responses, but it's not enough to make up from the lack of anything from him.

Nacho, did you write 738? If not, could you tell me what you think of it.

This interests me, but I can't call him town for it unless he actually explains it.

Tierce maybe scum for attacking and defending Stup. in the same post.

This was a very weak reason to find Tierce town.

His reads list might as well not have any reasons because it doesn't explain anything about his reads at all.

I feel like your first point is really holding me to too high a standard, and I find it irritating that you are pushing this bullshit today, while voting for the same person I am.

For your second point, I've told you recently, that I can't talk about it yet.

Lastly, no. It's a decent tell. People attacking and defending the same person in the same post has worked for me before.

were doin it man
were makin it hapen

Zdenek posts: 0
Elle: Best way to become engaged with the game: Scream at people. If you don't want to cure your disengagement well..

You're really cheer-leading this hard considering your read on me.

[Zdenek]

Oh and Quadz is fence-sitting scum.

[Cephrir]

fake vote:zdenek

Actual commentary when I get back to my compy

[AGar]

Agar's comment about gambling by putting Spyrex at L-1, still makes no sense. I have no idea what he was hoping to win. I also don't understand why he likes Spyrex's conviction about his hammer, since I don't think Spyrex would have done anything differently as either alignment.

I wanted pressure/content from Amrun, and if that didn't come, a lynch. I knew there was a risk that someone would come in and quickhammer the wagon, but I felt the vote needed to be there to help really lay the pressure on and get something done. Hence, gambling.

Zdenek is scum.

No time to go in depth but the zdenek wagon is the best of the three options.

Then why are neither of you voting him and actually making it a viable wagon option? Your votes are doing so well there in that 'Not Voting' pile.

Read the preceding paragraph in my post. I laid out pretty well how I think today is most likely to go. I was laying the read down for posterity. Some of the more polar reads are actually coming around, but I'm not holding my breath for a full-on wagon.

VOTE: Zdenek

[Garruk Relentless]

So now, the actual not catching up part.

If, IF, I go today I want it to at least be on the back of real wagons. These floater votes either need to drum up or get with a program. There's way too many scattered votes at this point and toooooo many people getting away without committing to whats going on.

That's one thing I like about AGars recent set - he's went hard and fast on me being town. I don't "get" the angle and I need someone to help explain to me scum-Agar's motive. I really, really think a scum-zd flip means AGar town (almost as much as it means ooba-scum).

elle took the low bar and went under it with the last posts. Benmage looks even more town which is good.

Unovte, Vote: Zdenek

I want to make these compete. If this gets big enough, I am going to reposition for hammers, but if I have to stop the Y U NO VOTE there you go.

I will say that cursory view the AGar wagon looks a lot more town than mine in composition. I feel like there's something in the way these votes are spread that I'm missing, but I can't even get my fingers around it.

SpyreX, why place a vote seemingly without reason?

SSK

[ooba]

He's talking about other wagons while voting the "lead" wagon. He's not even pretending to try and push through his vote.

If Zdenek is scum, lynch ooba.

Because linking myself to a scum partner this strongly is advisable in a large. I talked about all the other possible wagons today that I thought were\are a mistake - if enough people move their votes away from these - maybe we'll finally lynch you.

---

If Zednek is scum, some of his play borders on the ludicrous. There is no "image management" per se; his comments are not measured and his posting has been "what I think is what I write". A scum would have been more careful with their positions and their words.

Take the Thor vote - I can never see scum voting on these lines (because it opens them up to attack) and his subsequent "there's really no use in pushing Thor on the matter." is town.

Spoiler:

Anyway, I don't buy that the mods would have informed the miller about the presence of non-standard cops, so Thor's miller claim looks bogus,
- I'm a miller, but you could still investigate me as town.

Unvote
Vote Thor

He claimed miller.
He claimed that he could still be investigated by non-standard cops.

You should vote him because that's garbage.

tl;dr: Zednek is only scum this game if his scum game is appalling. As someone with a similar playstyle, I read his posting as town - he should not be today's lynch.

[ooba]

Why SpryeX ooba?

Hi Ben, I've listed out my previous points in this post. Apart from this, there was the D2 hammer.
- I know SpyreX hammers as either alignment but this one had scum written all over it. Amrun was never going to be lynched on D2. And the wind was shifting on D2 where we could actually get a decent suspect lynched. So hammer to get a mislynch you never would have got, avert lynch on yourself or possible scumbuddies for day seems like a no-brainer for scum.
- I thought the explanation (role-based hammer) was tacked on and weak.

Also I just thought of something while writing this -

SpyreX's playstyle includes "hammer time" and he gets a role that needs a hammer to power up? Coincidence much?

[ooba]

I don't have much to work with because both slots really did not play that long - but these votes on rising wagons don't fit someone who cared whether they got the hammer vote or not. i.e. I'd see them hanging back on another wagon until they hammer a big one at L-1 that they think is scum. Putting a mid-wagon vote on rising wagons is not really what one would do.

D1: With 24 alive it takes 13 votes to lynch

Peacebringer Voting StupendosMan - 6th Vote
StupendousMan (6)- Tammy, Messiah Complex, Nautilius, Cephrir, Goat on a Raft, Peacebringer

displaced Voting SafetyDance - 7th Vote
SafetyDance (7) - Alfred Borden, Syryana, Garruk Relentless, Cephrir, Tammyt, Shadoweh, displaced

[Desperado]

{SpyreX, Zdenek, The Alchemist, AGar, Goat on a Raft, Garruk Relentless}

this is pretty much my kill group in order

You're inside my head. The only name on this list whose death I would oppose is AGar. And maybe Alchemist, but that's mostly curiosity.

How did Goat end up on this list though?

{SpyreX, Zdenek, The Alchemist, AGar, Goat on a Raft, Garruk Relentless}

this is pretty much my kill group in order

You're inside my head. The only name on this list whose death I would oppose is AGar. And maybe Alchemist, but that's mostly curiosity.

How did Goat end up on this list though?

Yeah, I hear ya.

But do you actually think my 'pussy footing around with Thor D1' did 'jack shit for anyone' either, when a good portion of the group here admitted to not only ignoring what was in it but not even reading it? A theme that seemed to be carried into Day 2 since most of my questions went unanswered and my arguments about Zdenek and kanye ignored.

So yeah, admittedly - I've become disengaged.

So why is it more questionable that despite the fact that I've already said

why

I feel like he should be lynched and

why

I'm on the wagon than those that haven't?

You seem to dislike my comment on the procrastination going on in reference to all those that haven't taken a stand and are just sitting back prod dodging as time ticks by so that we're put into yet another loldeadline situation. We have 4 people that aren't even voting and another 4 on solo votes - a good majority of those that aren't doing crap all. Yet

I'm

the one not helping you?

Welp. It is what is it, then.

It's more questionable because you're posting to show that you're still here but you aren't actually doing anything. Popping in to walk through the thread of a lynch-spy picket sign is actively making it more difficult to get him lynched, because it makes you look lazy and it makes the wagon look less appealing to undecideds. So if you want to help, and you're going to call out other people who you feel are procrastinating, then you either need to start scumhunting those people, or put more effort into getting Spy lynched.

When did you start town reading Nautilus?

Around the time Nacho started obvtowning all over the thread. Did you miss all that?

@ AGar: OK, thank you for the explanation. We will lynch Zdenek with you if Spyrex can't become a reality.

@ Spyrex: Yeah, pretty much. That's how the game goes. What would you expect me to do if you flipped town, crawl into a hole?

@ Ooba: Too scummy to be scum? Nah. That's exactly the kind of person who should be today's lynch if we mistakenly let Spyrex escape this. Your other points on Spy are good though, because I feel like other players are consistently misinterpreting what we are saying. Even Spy in 2574 is still pushing the erroneous "You think this hammer could ONLY come from scum" when our argument is much more nuanced than that--this

particular

hammer can only come from scum because town-Spyrex whose role requires him to hammer people in order to access his ability had several, infinitely more protown options available to him in that situation and he said "fuck that, let's give the town the least amount of information possible."

[Messiah Complex]

{SpyreX, Zdenek, The Alchemist, AGar, Goat on a Raft, Garruk Relentless}

this is pretty much my kill group in order

You're inside my head. The only name on this list whose death I would oppose is AGar. And maybe Alchemist, but that's mostly curiosity.

How did Goat end up on this list though?

{SpyreX, Zdenek, The Alchemist, AGar, Goat on a Raft, Garruk Relentless}

this is pretty much my kill group in order

You're inside my head. The only name on this list whose death I would oppose is AGar. And maybe Alchemist, but that's mostly curiosity.

How did Goat end up on this list though?

Yeah, I hear ya.

But do you actually think my 'pussy footing around with Thor D1' did 'jack shit for anyone' either, when a good portion of the group here admitted to not only ignoring what was in it but not even reading it? A theme that seemed to be carried into Day 2 since most of my questions went unanswered and my arguments about Zdenek and kanye ignored.

So yeah, admittedly - I've become disengaged.

So why is it more questionable that despite the fact that I've already said

why

I feel like he should be lynched and

why

I'm on the wagon than those that haven't?

You seem to dislike my comment on the procrastination going on in reference to all those that haven't taken a stand and are just sitting back prod dodging as time ticks by so that we're put into yet another loldeadline situation. We have 4 people that aren't even voting and another 4 on solo votes - a good majority of those that aren't doing crap all. Yet

I'm

the one not helping you?

Welp. It is what is it, then.

It's more questionable because you're posting to show that you're still here but you aren't actually doing anything. Popping in to walk through the thread of a lynch-spy picket sign is actively making it more difficult to get him lynched, because it makes you look lazy and it makes the wagon look less appealing to undecideds. So if you want to help, and you're going to call out other people who you feel are procrastinating, then you either need to start scumhunting those people, or put more effort into getting Spy lynched.

When did you start town reading Nautilus?

Around the time Nacho started obvtowning all over the thread. Did you miss all that?

@ AGar: OK, thank you for the explanation. We will lynch Zdenek with you if Spyrex can't become a reality.

@ Spyrex: Yeah, pretty much. That's how the game goes. What would you expect me to do if you flipped town, crawl into a hole?

@ Ooba: Too scummy to be scum? Nah. That's exactly the kind of person who should be today's lynch if we mistakenly let Spyrex escape this. Your other points on Spy are good though, because I feel like other players are consistently misinterpreting what we are saying. Even Spy in 2574 is still pushing the erroneous "You think this hammer could ONLY come from scum" when our argument is much more nuanced than that--this

particular

hammer can only come from scum because town-Spyrex whose role requires him to hammer people in order to access his ability had several, infinitely more protown options available to him in that situation and he said "fuck that, let's give the town the least amount of information possible."

whoops

[Nautilius]

yes, however http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=30871

i think this is an issue for him that transcends alignment.

Sure. But the problem is I think he comes off as genuine as both alignments so I'm not comfortable clearing him based on genuine D1 play.

Tammy, do you think scum-SpyreX comes in and says "I would do it all over again even if I had read every post?" re: his hammer?

Yes. I sure as hell would. What other position do you think he would take? "Sorry guys that was actually a horrible thing I did?"

A group feels I'm scummy for putting Amrun at L-1 to bait a quicklynch. Another group feels SpyreX is scummy for quickhammering.

And there's a third, unacknowledged group that thinks peacebringer was actually scummy and SpyreX hasn't done anything close to helping dispel those bad feelings. There's also a bunch of townies floating around everywhere and his slot is in the bottom of the bottom half of "reasons to call this person town".

nautcho would you be greatly opposed to lynching zed today over the spyman? how big a gap is there between the two in your Kill Order

I wouldn't be horribly opposed, but I'm very very reluctant to move from one scum to the other when spyspy keeps showing up and disappointing me. Like I read ahead and noticed his "oh put Goat in town if I die" but I don't need him to die to see Goat is town I just need him to be town and then explain it to me. I might be willing to let him go another day based on your peacebringer read, but spyspy going another day based on an endorsement does not leave me feeling awesomely or like I'm racing towards an excellent scumlynch.

We're willing to compromise on Zed. This hydras been plagued by one head being on vacation and having inner turmoil between Agar vs ooba.

You've been dealing with your inner demons for too long. Time to put your chips on the table and make a dive for it.

defending me when people are clamoring for blood doesn't make a lick of sense scumwise.

Why not? I'd defend you in a nacho-scum, SpyreX-town situation; it's likely that you'll be able to throw the wagon off you because you're SpyreX, and then I wouldn't be in the dog house when the tables were turned. I much prefer kanye's defense of your slot of AGar's; AGar's is attacking the quickhammer = scum logic which is obviously wrong but kanye is actually going "no, the slot is town".

I feel like your first point is really holding me to too high a standard, and I find it irritating that you are pushing this bullshit today, while voting for the same person I am.

I don't think I'm holding you to too high a standard and I'm insanely depressed if you think this game is on par with your normal towngame.
And sorry for not thinking there might be distancing within the scumteam? Do you think the SpyreX wagon is full of townies regardless of SpyreX's alignment?

Oh and Quadz is fence-sitting scum.

What's he fence-sitting about?

Because linking myself to a scum partner this strongly is advisable in a large. I talked about all the other possible wagons today that I thought were\are a mistake - if enough people move their votes away from these - maybe we'll finally lynch you.

Yeah that SpyreX quote was bullshit.

Zednek is only scum this game if his scum game is appalling.

I don't think he manages his image that much as either alignment, honestly.
I only have experience with Zdenek's towngame but this is a far cry from anything of the towngame I remember.

How did Goat end up on this list though?

I felt a hell of a lot more confident calling everyone else town; the strongest piece of evidence for Goat being town was, again, the censor thing which I felt was indicative of his alignment regardless of the roles before alignment thing, but in the end it's just not enough.

[AGar]

Tammy, do you think scum-SpyreX comes in and says "I would do it all over again even if I had read every post?" re: his hammer?

Yes. I sure as hell would. What other position do you think he would take? "Sorry guys that was actually a horrible thing I did?"

There's the option of just saying "It happened, deal." or something to that effect.

A group feels I'm scummy for putting Amrun at L-1 to bait a quicklynch. Another group feels SpyreX is scummy for quickhammering.

And there's a third, unacknowledged group that thinks peacebringer was actually scummy and SpyreX hasn't done anything close to helping dispel those bad feelings. There's also a bunch of townies floating around everywhere and his slot is in the bottom of the bottom half of "reasons to call this person town".

That group has been such a vocal minority, I wasn't aware they existed.

[SpyreX]

SpyreX, why place a vote seemingly without reason?

SSK

Go reread, if you think thats without reason.

I wouldn't be horribly opposed, but I'm very very reluctant to move from one scum to the other when spyspy keeps showing up and disappointing me. Like I read ahead and noticed his "oh put Goat in town if I die" but I don't need him to die to see Goat is town I just need him to be town and then explain it to me. I might be willing to let him go another day based on your peacebringer read, but spyspy going another day based on an endorsement does not leave me feeling awesomely or like I'm racing towards an excellent scumlynch.

Why not? I'd defend you in a nacho-scum, SpyreX-town situation; it's likely that you'll be able to throw the wagon off you because you're SpyreX, and then I wouldn't be in the dog house when the tables were turned. I much prefer kanye's defense of your slot of AGar's; AGar's is attacking the quickhammer = scum logic which is obviously wrong but kanye is actually going "no, the slot is town".

Yeah that SpyreX quote was bullshit.

My time is limited, and based on how this game has went doing an analysis on

why someone is town

when the extent of what I'm getting on the other side is very, very limited is, was and will be a waste of my time. Doubly so when you've got a halfie about me being scum. So, instead, if this goes awry maybe then you'll actually relook at it. This is prep for down, down, down the road.

While kkb's read is good, the fact AGar is attacking the quickhammer = scum logic is the majority of the "wagon" on me. The bullshit they cover it with still comes down to "ohh there's a wagon." AGar is solid enough to know that even if he's successful chances are high that same pack of wolves jumps that way.

As for that being bullshit, well, we'll just see. Talking about the "lesser" wagons parked on the main one without trying to actually push that anywhere? That, ser, is the bullshit.

Mark it, Zdenek flips scum, ooba flips scum.

[Eddard Stark]

Day 3, Vc 14

SpyreX (6) -

Tammy, ooba, Zdenek, elleheathen, Messiah Complex, Nautilius

AGar (5) -

Goat on a Raft, Benmage, Garruk Relentless, The Alchemist, Alfred Borden

Nautilius (1) -

quadz08

ooba (1) -

PrideandJoy

Zdenek (5) -

kanyeknowsbest, StupendousMan, Shadoweh, SpyreX, AGar

quadz08 (1) -

Tierce

elleheathen (1) -

Goat on a Raft

Not voting (2)

:Cephrir, SafetyDance

With 21 alive it takes 11 votes to lynch

• Deadline Date: 25th of October at 16:05 EDT
  
• Deadline Countdown: (expired on 2013-10-25 04:30:01)
  
• --

Prodding Benmage, PrideandJoy, The Alchemist, Goat on a Raft.

[PrideandJoy]

VOTE: Benmage

This day feels all wrong. I no longer like any of the wagons. I want to go in a totally opposite direction.

I want a lynch like on the 2nd day of the Balto invitational, to go to a place where no one particularly looks or scrutinizes. I don't remember Benmage playing particularly towny. I'm just reminded of the wire.

[Benmage]

I don't remember Benmage playing particularly towny.

I'm just reminded of the wire.

[Messiah Complex]

VOTE: Benmage

This day feels all wrong. I no longer like any of the wagons. I want to go in a totally opposite direction.

I want a lynch like on the 2nd day of the Balto invitational, to go to a place where no one particularly looks or scrutinizes. I don't remember Benmage playing particularly towny. I'm just reminded of the wire.

Why Ben? We've been reading him as very town for a bit now. What are you seeing that we aren't? Are these feelings you've been having all along or something you just came to?

-fishy

[The Alchemist]

Prod received. Back later.

[Cephrir]

I don't give a fuck if you have a history of quickhammering. Why? Because you have a history of quickhammering for situations precisely like this one--so you can pretend like you've defeated my argument by telling me you've done this before as town so LOL TRY AGAIN!!!!

Your argument here hinges on "SpyreX spent 4+ years quickhammering just so he could troll one game in 2013."

You do realize that, right?

I only made that point in response to Spyrex's gross attempt to defeat my argument by self-metaing. In any case, it wasn't specific to this game--Spyrex quickhammers as town so that he can quickhammer as scum and get away with it. Unless there's a hidden benefit to derpass troll hammers that I'm missing?

Your argument until recently has been "quickhammer = scum" as far as I'm concerned. When you admit here that he does it as town as well, that's admitting you've been vehemently arguing something for five pages or however long that was blatantly, objectively false and this was pointed out to you a multitude of times. Yeah, I know you're now saying it was the reason he gave, but I don't believe that's what you were arguing before. There is nothing gross about self-metaing for a literal objective fact. Is his excuse for the hammer scummy, maybe, sure.

So messiah, have you actually made an argument yet that doesn't boil down to "because I said so"? Seeing as you basically admit to having no argument in 2523.

Incredible misrep. Is there a reason you didn't quote my 2523 so that everyone would have been able to see it for themselves?

My argument has been clear from the beginning--Spyrex's hammer is oozing in scum motivation and doesn't make any sense from a town-Spyrex perspective given what he's said about his role and hammers. He could have accomplished the same thing (hammering someone) while also waiting for Amrun to provide content and he didn't. The protown move was right there in front of him and he went another way.

No one has satisfactorily argued against this and told me why townSpyrex who needs to hammer people to get his ability going handled the situation the way he did.

- Des

This might be the first time I have ever been called scum for not quoting something. A+ job. Your argument has not been clear from the beginning, obviously, or myself and several others would not have been having this argument with you. The "given what he's said..." is an addendum I really don't think was in your argument at the beginning. I'll fact check myself here after I make this post. The attempt to mudsling at me here is pretty lame either way though, and there was quite plainly nothing clear going on.

I only made that point in response to Spyrex's gross attempt to defeat my argument by self-metaing. In any case, it wasn't specific to this game--Spyrex quickhammers as town so that he can quickhammer as scum and get away with it. Unless there's a hidden benefit to derpass troll hammers that I'm missing?

I'll help you out then. Cephrir's thinks this is me "basically admitting" I have no argument. He says this in reference to my read on Spyrex as a whole, then AGar was clearly critiquing a remote portion of the case that only appeared because Spyrex tried to self-meta his way out of my accusations.

I look forward to your thoughts on why townSpy did what he did how he did it.

- Des

A "remote portion"? Don't make me laugh. If you've said anything else on the subject I don't remember it.

No, Elleheathen is still probably town.

Why? I really am interested in seeing if you see what I see as missing from her town game.

Me too.
Since he's answered, what is it you see that's missing from my town game

that isn't in my scum game

?

*passes through with a Spyrex For Scum picket sign*

Hey, this isn't doing jack shit for anyone. If you actually want to help me get him lynched you should start putting in the same kind of time you did pussy footing around with Thor D1.

Yeah, I hear ya.

But do you actually think my 'pussy footing around with Thor D1' did 'jack shit for anyone' either, when a good portion of the group here admitted to not only ignoring what was in it but not even reading it? A theme that seemed to be carried into Day 2 since most of my questions went unanswered and my arguments about Zdenek and kanye ignored.

So yeah, admittedly - I've become disengaged.

So why is it more questionable that despite the fact that I've already said

why

I feel like he should be lynched and

why

I'm on the wagon than those that haven't?

You seem to dislike my comment on the procrastination going on in reference to all those that haven't taken a stand and are just sitting back prod dodging as time ticks by so that we're put into yet another loldeadline situation. We have 4 people that aren't even voting and another 4 on solo votes - a good majority of those that aren't doing crap all. Yet

I'm

the one not helping you?

Welp. It is what is it, then.

Genuine.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go
this is what I leave for you all wrt stupendous

The main difference I see here (remember, I can't meta worth shit) is that he tunnels less and pursues his suspects more as town, while being open to changing his vote. Some of that is happening here and some of it isn't.

{SpyreX, Zdenek, The Alchemist, AGar, Goat on a Raft, Garruk Relentless}

this is pretty much my kill group in order

I only have three objections: AGar, lack of Messiah, and the order.

oh also i still believe in my spyrex vote

and i think you should too.

Tammy, do you think scum-SpyreX comes in and says "I would do it all over again even if I had read every post?" re: his hammer?

Yes. I think town-SpyreX would do it too. *shrug*

Your argument here hinges on "SpyreX spent 4+ years quickhammering just so he could troll one game in 2013."

You do realize that, right?

If you do something as town, you can do it as scum.

Not my point. My point was that the accusation was that Spy spent all of his time quickhammering so he could do it in one game and point to his past meta to go "Ha! I'm town!" First, it's been said he does it alignment null a few times I believe. And second, I've said above about how I feel about that kind of accusation.

I know I'm a bad lynch. I really feel like SpyreX is a bad lynch. But today is not going to end in any other lynch. Let's be realistic here. The end of D2 was way too polarizing for most of the players in this game. No one wants to budge on those. Clearly if push comes to shove, I'm voting SpyreX, and he's voting me. The town needs to come to a consensus on one or the other and just lynch it and progress, because we're literally getting absolutely nowhere in this game right now. Half the town is lurking, and part of that is because we're beating a dead horse. A group feels I'm scummy for putting Amrun at L-1 to bait a quicklynch. Another group feels SpyreX is scummy for quickhammering. There's a handful of people who feel both of us are scummy. This is literally all today has given us, and all that it is going to give us.

In the meantime...

Zdenek is scum.

He was someone I literally couldn't get a handle on the first two days, and upon rereading, it's because there's nothing to really "get a handle on." He pops in, drops some pithy one liners, regurgitates the general groupthink, then leaves. He's riding the ebbs and flows, taking advantage of what goes along in the game to keep himself from completely being readless, but he's just latching onto the biggest opportunity presented to himself and riding the coattails. Generally weak votes all around, no real drive behind them. If you can be pithy, you can use rhetoric in your favor.

This is possibly the first time I've gotten bad vibes from you. You spend the beginning of this post getting downtrodden and preparing to vote Spyre in the name of self-preservation, then proceed to make something of a case on a wagon that is actually not unviable. Seems to me like a good way to make sure said wagon gains traction, which it has. The formatting of your transition makes it out like you're saying something really momentous, and you sort of are, but that feeling doesn't jive with the woe-is-me of the first part. On the other hand, I basically agree with said case. Now that I can talk about it, this Zdenek doesn't feel to me like he did in NY 165 (in which I was scum, called him obvtown because I believed it was true, and nightkilled him for that reason. He was a lot more passionate and aggressive there IMO).

Curiosity SpyreX: You want me dead for the L-1 vote or for general play? Trying to get a gauge on who's actually, y'know, pursuing a case, and who's afraid to take on a POWERFUL WIZARD so taking the copout vote.

Not for the L-1. Aint nothing wrong with that. I really didn't like Andrius and I really didn't like your early play. I will admit, and maybe its because you're rubbing my ego's belly and making it purr, I'm starting to get hesitation because defending me when people are clamoring for blood doesn't make a lick of sense scumwise.

I don't think AGar is scum but I don't agree with this.

I don't give a fuck if you have a history of quickhammering. Why? Because you have a history of quickhammering for situations precisely like this one--so you can pretend like you've defeated my argument by telling me you've done this before as town so LOL TRY AGAIN!!!!

No.

The fact that it even crossed your mind to offer this sort of deal when you (presumably) don't know my alignment is scummy as fuck. With that said, if you were to miraculously flip town, I would do the same thing I do every other time I lead a mislynch--forget about it and get back to finding scum.

- Des

On some level I'm not surprised. So, the exit strategy is flailing about and after all the spittle is done, just pretending it didn't happen. Gotcha.

I'm not saying I'm town because lol meta. I'm saying that when your argument is ONLY SCUM WOULD EVER DO THIS THING and you're patently wrong and easily proved such, what are you going to do? You that committed to your nonsense that'd you take a rope for it? Nah, course not, cause that would be a hard stance and better get back to finding scum.

However today is not the time to waste on an ostrich, that can come later.

1. Yes, so it would seem.
2. Looks like I was right about what I thought Messiah was saying earlier and he really is full of shit. SHocker!
3. Even if it's a scum ostrich? =/

Zednek is a horrible lynch. I don't have have the same level of confidence with AGar but he shouldn't be today's lynch too.

I actually like Messiah's recent play.

TheAlchemist really needs to start playing soon. Also what does "Glass Towers" mean in the below line?

I will underline this so it doesn't get lost:

He's talking about other wagons while voting the "lead" wagon. He's not even pretending to try and push through his vote.

If Zdenek is scum, lynch ooba.

He's talking about the other wagons to call them bad. Because he wants his wagon to go through. You're gonna have to lay out for me what's wrong with that.

Because I don't have a vote today

sadday.

hey elle. can u pls point out to me your argumetns about me which were ignored which helped lead to you becoming disengaged?

Yeah, sure. The ones about you that I could remember/find:

hello, all. i want to lynch garuck and terice and also maybe amrun a little someonje whos good @ finding scum and also town pls tell me what 2 do ty

Why Garruk?

Serious question for people: Is kayneknowsbest's active lurking not scummy to anyone? We've been beating up on lurkers, Amrun, displaced/Spyrex before he's posted (?) but kayne is getting some serious ignore time here. I know he posts small alot but in Mafiastuck he was really active like he was at the beginning and never stopped. Kayne can you please stop it and go back to Day 1 when you were pushing your reads? What do you think about Zdenek ignoring you today?

Don't know what to think about kanye.

A ton of people seem to have town reads on him based on his meta, which I'm hesitant to doubt because I was wrong with Thor in that situation.
His posting style seems scummy to me, as does his ignoring of questions, though both have been stated to be 'kanye normal' regardless of alignment.
I don't know about the active lurking but I've had him in my 'could be scum' sights since he left the Thor wagon with only twelve hours to go to start a new wagon on Garruk without even so much as a read. Maybe it's that there isn't much transition from his post in 1664 where he seems fine with both the Thor and SD wagons but... bad feels.
But then, he doesn't actually explain anything and hasn't answered my question on 'Why Garruk' yet - and that's apparently normal(?) so idk.

It's not much, especially apart from everything as a whole. But altogether it makes the effort feel wasted. /shrug

also i notice that you seem to think zed is scum. why havent you made any comments about him at all today outside of trying to cheerlead agar into placing his vote? are you willing to switch your vote over to zed at this point?

My read on him hasn't changed since my post 1891. I still think those things are scummy and that he could be scum - but I also don't see much point in repeating it.

My vote will stay on Spyrex - because I think he's scum and needs to die.

However, if the incoming loldeadline takes Spy off the table and means it's a choice between Zdenek and someone else, then yes, I would vote Zdenek. Or you.

Elle: Best way to become engaged with the game: Scream at people. If you don't want to cure your disengagement well..

Trying to get back into it - but I suck at screaming at ppl. I'll work on it... lol <3

Meanwhile, this post makes me wonder if maybe the sudden naysayers wrt elle have a point.

were doin it man
were makin it hapen

Zdenek posts: 0
Elle: Best way to become engaged with the game: Scream at people. If you don't want to cure your disengagement well..

I hate that screaming actually works =(

{SpyreX, Zdenek, The Alchemist, AGar, Goat on a Raft, Garruk Relentless}

this is pretty much my kill group in order

You're inside my head. The only name on this list whose death I would oppose is AGar. And maybe Alchemist, but that's mostly curiosity.

How did Goat end up on this list though?

We agree about something? Eugh. Remind me to rethink all these reads if Messiah ever flips scum...

@ Ooba: Too scummy to be scum? Nah. That's exactly the kind of person who should be today's lynch if we mistakenly let Spyrex escape this. Your other points on Spy are good though, because I feel like other players are consistently misinterpreting what we are saying. Even Spy in 2574 is still pushing the erroneous "You think this hammer could ONLY come from scum" when our argument is much more nuanced than that--this

particular

hammer can only come from scum because town-Spyrex whose role requires him to hammer people in order to access his ability had several, infinitely more protown options available to him in that situation and he said "fuck that, let's give the town the least amount of information possible."

You weren't saying that before, and maybe the fact that literally everyone thinks you were saying this indicates that maybe, just maybe, you were saying it? You sure do get "misinterpreted" a lot.

[Shadoweh]

Shadoweh, you're voting me because I aggravate you? That's cute.

You don't aggrivate me. That would imply you inspire an emotion in me. You inspire blandness.

You're really cheer-leading this hard considering your read on me.

I guess you could call it more uncheering the other wagons. Yours is a flip I want to see the results of.

[Shadoweh]

VOTE: Benmage

This day feels all wrong. I no longer like any of the wagons. I want to go in a totally opposite direction.

I want a lynch like on the 2nd day of the Balto invitational, to go to a place where no one particularly looks or scrutinizes. I don't remember Benmage playing particularly towny. I'm just reminded of the wire.

If you want it to go a different way as off-topic as this you gotta make a case for it. You should know that. :V