A uPick of Ice & Fire - Day 12 - #REKT?

[Benmage]

Naut,

what did Alfred do D1 that was soooooo TOWN ZOMG>... zzzz

[Titus]

Naut, your walls were TLDR. Where is your case on me again?

As for the two fake claimers, it doesn't make sense to fake claim cop right after another fake claimed cop. BM fullclaiming helps get into his head to see why or how hat happened. I am looking for a definite reason why Benmage is town, as a way of verifying my vote. If I don't get it. It's tunnel time.

[SafetyDance]

Sorry, something's come up. V/LA next 36 hours. Shouldn't be long than that, hopefully.

[Cephrir]

Alright, so I've decided to completely go AWOL from here until my finals are over (aka the 22nd). This is too much of a distraction; my apologies.

If I post here again, consider it a scumclaim and kindly lynch the shit out of me for my own sake.

As such, my reread is not getting done this game day. I can't imagine that it can possibly not make me want to do this, though:

VOTE: The Alchemist

If I survive the night, which I hope I don't, I will deal with this then. See you in a few days.

[Eddard Stark]

Day 9, Vc 5

The Alchemist (4) -

Messiah Complex, Nautilius, Benmage, Cephrir

Benmage (2) -

Alfred Borden, Titus

ooba (1) -

SafetyDance

Messiah (1) -

ooba

Not voting (3)

: Magua, Shadoweh, The Alchemist

With 11 alive it takes 6 votes to lynch

• Deadline Date: 24th of December 19:30 EST
  
• Deadline Countdown: (expired on 2013-12-24 19:30:00)
  
• Cephrir is V/la

[Magua]

Show me one good Day 1 scumgame that Empire has played on this site. One.

Fuck it's hard to track Empire's games with all the bloody hydras.

But really, it doesn't even matter, because I'm not giving

any

much weight to D1-D3, and am giving a lot of weight to D8-D9. I did

skim

read the D1-D2 ISO and I just don't find it super-obv-town like you do, and coupled with me finding recent behavior super-obv-scummy, well.

Blah blah meta blah, my takeaway is Empire is capable of playing an /excellent/ scumgame on EM. Saying he's incapable of playing one on forum mafia is...wrong? He had some stumbling blocks transferring here in his early town games, but overcame those.

Blah blah Tammy/Tierce-called-him-town blah:

Who has two thumbs and doesn't care about dead townies? This guy!

Nah, I just don't care. Super srs here.

Blah blah burden of proficiency blah: I will totally fucking call Llamarble out with a BOP argument. I would totally fucking call you out on it, too, but, hooray, you're posting. I would totally fucking call ooba out on it, but lol he's already fucked that up so.

---

Alchemist dies today, flips scum. If you (that is, Nautilus) die tonight and

I'll add you to the list of dead townies whose opinions I will ignore in favor of my own

maybe listen to what you say. If I die all I ask is the same

slavish obedience

weight given to my read as Tierce's and Tammy's.

[Titus]

Magua, while I understand your wanting to stick to your own opinions, the fact Tammy/Tierce died instead of you suggests that your reads were further off. Scum, if all choices are equal, kill the player whose reads are closest to accurate.

Also, if you want Alchemist dead today, then why aren't you voting him?

I think y'all are being stupid by not looking at the fakeclaimers. Alchemist is probably just playing this game like an idiot.

[Magua]

Magua, while I understand your wanting to stick to your own opinions, the fact Tammy/Tierce died instead of you suggests that your reads were further off. Scum, if all choices are equal, kill the player whose reads are closest to accurate.

Now, not to be

too

egotistical, I would say it might

possibly

be because my input for Day 8 was "Hai guiz, nice game you got here, Benmage is a maroon and no one should listen to him, please don't hammer while I t--" hammer.

Which is, coincidentally enough, the same reason that I'm not voting for Alchemist now, to wit: I want more

scumclaims

content. Especially from Alfred, who thinks I'm town while I think they're scum. We're not up against a deadline, so not seeing the win in hurrying.

I think y'all are being stupid by not looking at the fakeclaimers. Alchemist is probably just playing this game like an idiot.

Entirely possible. But our perspectives seem different. Your perspective seems to be, "No townie would be braindead enough to pull a fake guilty after another fake guilty, therefore Benmage has to be scum," whereas my perspective is "Not again "

We can get into the larger meta discussion about how terrible Benmage is and how terrible what he does to the game is, and I would agree with you, but that doesn't change things for *this game* *right now*. And right here right now, I don't think he's scum. It's not a modconfirmed 100% feeling, but at least a good 75%. So compared to Alchemist, who I *do* think is scum, it's pretty obvious which one I want.

[Titus]

Ok, I'll agree with you on tabling Benmage for now.

Why is TA scum?

[Nautilius]

Naut, Desp is working on a reply to your wall on us. He should have it done in a day or two.

All you others taking shots at us I will be addressing hopefully tomorrow.

He should know that's don't really care about his response to my case and instead care about him making more of an effort to figure the game out.

[Nautilius]

Nacho you have no idea how much you've trolled me. Your trolling started before this game even began.
*fume* Fine I will stop attempting to throw pottery at Alfred. So you're going with Titus/MC/TA/elle?

I know how much I've been trolling you more than anyone.
And yep, that's my scumteam.

[Nautilius]

Naut, your walls were TLDR. Where is your case on me again?

As for the two fake claimers, it doesn't make sense to fake claim cop right after another fake claimed cop. BM fullclaiming helps get into his head to see why or how hat happened. I am looking for a definite reason why Benmage is town, as a way of verifying my vote. If I don't get it. It's tunnel time.

Full claiming helps get in his head? How? It's a fake claim which means that it isn't based on role information, it's based on Benmage.

Fakeclaims don't make any fucking sense, but I'll ask again: why does one of them have to be scum? "because there were two of them" doesn't actually answer that question

[Messiah Complex]

I still think Alfred Borden is town. I see Empire posting that I'm fairly confident that he cannot fake as scum, I also present to you this:

I would also like to know why the Desp head of the Messiah Complex hydra is ignoring Tammy's STRONG STRONG endorsement of Empire-town.

I had just gotten done arguing with Tammy about Borden when she put that case up (that ends midway through D3), so don't tell me I ignored her. The majority of our issues with Borden come on D4 onward. We weren't convinced then and we aren't now.

First thing that concerns me about the Messiah Complex hydra is that they currently have less than a post per page and I can't remember anything that they've posted recently. The current people hitting less than a post per page are:

Alfred Borden (Empire/Llamarble) - Concerning, would be more concerning if Empire was still in the game. I can see Llamarble-town having trouble getting into a game where his partner who was doing the lion's share of the work abandoned him.
elleheathen Magua - elle flaked for a hell of a while, Magua is a replacement, not surprising.
Messiah Complex (Desperado/Formerfish)
ooba - generally a low rate poster, not a concern.
SafetyDance - generally a low rate poster, not a concern.
Shadoweh - I figured she would have more posts by now, but :hitoshrug:
The Alchemist - lurking scum which explains low postcount

Messiah Complex most likely shouldn't be close to this postrate. He should be a leader by now because the list is getting pretty fucking small and the game is getting pretty fucking close to the bad stages, but he's not. This is concerning. Not a smoking gun quite yet, but concerning in a bad way considering the last large games I remember him in he had postcounts like this and this (lurkfuck game) and this (incredibly lurky Desperado-town) and this, and I wouldn't expect him to lose an incredible amount of energy and good posting like he has lately.

I tried to be a leader twice. The first time I was met with extreme resistance and it took forever to get a secure a lynch that should have been obvious. The second time, I was met with the same resistance plus a dash of "shut the fuck up" from you, tammy and tierce at the start of D7 coming off of Borden's 2nd quickhammer. The fact is that the town has gone against our reads in almost every case--there's a point where even the highest energy town player can run out of motivation, and this game has pushed me there multiple times. You can't lead someone who doesn't want to be led.

Messiah switches gears completely onto Garruk and tends to keep his hands out of the SD-quadz situation completely because quadz probably shouldn't have died the day that he did and he had a strong townread on SD already (still for scum JOAT reasoning as opposed to any other reason). They launch into a tirade how we shouldn't deal with the 1v1 today, we shouldn't deal with the 1v1 today, but in doing so he doesn't make any attempt to sort either of them out (despite that strong townread on SD earlier and no stance to speak of on quadz).

I didn't make an attempt to sort Quadz because

he claimed Macho Cop

. He was going to be sorted eventually and wasn't worth wasting time on, as I made clear at the time.

I really really really don't like how Tammy and I dropped a fuckton of reasoning about Borden's towniness and Desp just sort of... ignored it. He's as kneedeep in the "strong meta read" culture as I am so he should be able to see those things and trust conviction like the conviction Tammy had, but he ignored it and just kind of shelved it until later.

Ignored it???

What the fuck, dude?

I also don't like how he sees the whole Benmage/Garruk thing yesterday and doesn't comment on it, just drops a vote on Alchemist. Felt bussy in the sense that it would be ignored pretty much entirely, but hey, at least he has his vote documented on Alchemist.

Garruk flipped town and Benmage is still town. What else is there to say?

- Des

[Nautilius]

Magua, if you die before me, sure I'll listen about Alfred! You won't die before me though.

[Nautilius]

Naut,

what did Alfred do D1 that was soooooo TOWN ZOMG>... zzzz

Already explained, won't explain again.

[Nautilius]

Titus, you were so happy to vote TA before. Why are you holding back now that it looks like he's actually going to get lynched?

[Messiah Complex]

Naut, Desp is working on a reply to your wall on us. He should have it done in a day or two.

All you others taking shots at us I will be addressing hopefully tomorrow.

He should know that's don't really care about his response to my case and instead care about him making more of an effort to figure the game out.

I have been making an effort. You can seriously shove this bullshit up your ass. Spyrex doesn't get lynched without our push. We were out on Thor, Amrun, Kanye, PnJ. We're alive because we don't have any cache in this town, bottomline.

- Des

[Nautilius]

1) It doesn't matter when the case convers when you don't know that you can read empire but Tammy can. What is so horrible about Alfred's play where you are ignoring a strong meta read because of it? You wouldn't ignore anyone else when they call a hard meta read (even if you didn't see it), why would you ignore her? The only reason I can see is that you need the Alfred Borden mislynch; show me otherwise.

2) well I have no idea why we told you to stop pushing that angle. Maybe because... Strong meta read? I'm also surprised to hear you say that you stepped down because people weren't listening because all that sounds exactly like TAs response to Tierce when she asked him why he wasnt pushing anything.

3) Eho cares what he claimed? There were clearly a few problems with his claim, but you stayed off him because he claimed cop. I know you saw the cracks in his claim; why not address them? Why not be louder when protecting him if you thought he would be sorted so quickly?

4) you look at it and said "not enough". By ignore it, I mean you didn't take it into account to the extent that you should have. Are my semantics better now?

[Nautilius]

Naut, Desp is working on a reply to your wall on us. He should have it done in a day or two.

All you others taking shots at us I will be addressing hopefully tomorrow.

He should know that's don't really care about his response to my case and instead care about him making more of an effort to figure the game out.

I have been making an effort. You can seriously shove this bullshit up your ass. Spyrex doesn't get lynched without our push. We were out on Thor, Amrun, Kanye, PnJ. We're alive because we don't have any cache in this town, bottomline.

- Des

Hey I would listen with you if you worked with me more closely, and I have plenty of influence! But you haven't tried to work with me in a while, it seems.

[Nautilius]

Even now I'm telling you Tammy and tierce and I know what the hell we are talking about and you still aren't trusting us or putting a little more effort in backing up your beliefs. A large reason I looked into Alfred to the extent that I did is because of your worries, not my personal paranoia and not anyone else's. And I'm telling you that I've done the legwork and I still hold the same confidence he's town and you aren't addressing that in any significant way?

[Messiah Complex]

1) It doesn't matter when the case convers when you don't know that you can read empire but Tammy can. What is so horrible about Alfred's play where you are ignoring a strong meta read because of it? You wouldn't ignore anyone else when they call a hard meta read (even if you didn't see it), why would you ignore her? The only reason I can see is that you need the Alfred Borden mislynch; show me otherwise.

2) well I have no idea why we told you to stop pushing that angle. Maybe because... Strong meta read? I'm also surprised to hear you say that you stepped down because people weren't listening because all that sounds exactly like TAs response to Tierce when she asked him why he wasnt pushing anything.

3) Eho cares what he claimed? There were clearly a few problems with his claim, but you stayed off him because he claimed cop. I know you saw the cracks in his claim; why not address them? Why not be louder when protecting him if you thought he would be sorted so quickly?

4) you look at it and said "not enough". By ignore it, I mean you didn't take it into account to the extent that you should have. Are my semantics better now?

1. For starters, how about Borden's complete avoidance of the SD/Quadz situation? In which they

didn't vote once

? Please explain the town motivation for their behavior D4.

2. The difference is that we have still been pushing things. We pushed Borden D7 and defended Kanye til the end. We pushed Garruk all game before Benmage's fake guilty. We pushed Goat before you Gladiatorated him. We pushed quadz until he claimed something that guaranteed his death or lynch.

Are you seriously fucking comparing us to Alchemist right now?

3. What the fuck do you mean who cares what he claimed? He claimed an unprotectable cop. He was either scum fakeclaiming or soon to be dead town. I didn't see any value in feeding into the 1v1 at that time, so I went another way.

Also: you bought Quadz' claim at first and defended his investigation choices. Why are you now calling me scummy for not calling out the obvious holes in it?

4. You're goddamn right I look at it and say "not enough." Yours and Tammy's town case for Borden ends halfway through D3 and it's D9. It ignores marbles' potential impact on Empire's scumgame. It ignores Empire's ability to emulate what you and Tammy and Tierce expect from him as town. And it ignores the fact that

Empire couldn't keep up the charade

. Chalk it up to whatever you want but Borden hasn't looked town since D3 and you and Tammy and whoever else hasn't even tried to show otherwise, because you can't. They've done NOTHING but push town and avoid scum lynches all game long and you're sitting there and townreading them for it.

Get a grip, Nacho. They're scum.

- Des

[Nautilius]

1) They didn't avoid it. They commented on it a few times! They didn't reach resolution on who they wanted to vote, which isn't a horribly bad thing considering there was a point where quadz was in his grave and they could have voted, wouldn't be too hard to jump in then. Why is not voting in the 1v1 such a scumtell, again? Is it because you don't think they could figure out to pick a side as scum?

2) You said you stopped leading because we shut down your Borden read and because people didn't listen to you fast enough on your SpyreX read. Both of these reasons sound like bulkshit, and this is what I want to discuss with this numbered point. I will also add that quads getting roleblocked was a damn strong possibility, considering claimed cop.

3) the next day, quads claims roleblocked and is still alive. Whoops!
I'm criticizing you because you didn't even look at it; I went through a full thought process on the claim and you didn't because you believed he would be sorted eventually.

4) Marble impact on Empire is that he will have to do a great deal of carrying. He will not be able to coach empire how to deal with strong meta threats because he doesn't know what we look for. It doesn't ignore Empire ability to emulate what we expect out of him as town; I saw him try to emulate what Ffery expected as town and it was a pretty pitiful showing there too. And couldn't keep up the charade? This is a disgusting misrep considering he replaced out everywhere due to real life circumstances. Your characterization of their play is additionally horrible and I won't even address it.

[Nautilius]

Also going to take this opportunity to call Titus out again for wanting to lynch The Alchemist for forever and then backing off when his wagon gained traction and now suddenly calling him just an idiot now that there are fakeclaimers to push.

[Alfred Borden]

@Magua:
My Proficiency would look a lot better without 2 faked guilties a 1v1 a fast scumhammer and a deadlined lynch on Thor.
On Garruk we had Nacho's roleblock-nokill on top of Benmage's claim. I can't not make that play.
Obvious lynches get a fact check and a hammer or a STOP THIS, not a full-game solving session.

We didn't use our vote much because we wanted to agree on votes but failed at schedule overlap.

TA, how hard is your guarantee that the name you were given is not in the setup?

[Titus]

Naut, your walls were TLDR. Where is your case on me again?

As for the two fake claimers, it doesn't make sense to fake claim cop right after another fake claimed cop. BM fullclaiming helps get into his head to see why or how hat happened. I am looking for a definite reason why Benmage is town, as a way of verifying my vote. If I don't get it. It's tunnel time.

Full claiming helps get in his head? How? It's a fake claim which means that it isn't based on role information, it's based on Benmage.

Fakeclaims don't make any fucking sense, but I'll ask again: why does one of them have to be scum? "because there were two of them" doesn't actually answer that question

Titus, you were so happy to vote TA before. Why are you holding back now that it looks like he's actually going to get lynched?

I have quoted those two because they are related.

I feel that one of Benmage/ooba is scum. It would be foolish to move elsewhere. Also, I have been saying for awhile now TA could be an idiot. Even if I was confident in TA scum, you don't take confident over a sure scum detection. It is precisely the same reason I am not voting AB either.

One of the fake claimers must be scum. I say fake claimers because Benmage uttery refuses to say anything but I am a special snowflake tracker. Blergh. After a fake cop gambit, Benmage seizes an opportunity to skate by as scum. Given where we are and the fact roles don't flip, this sucks.