Mini 1533: No More Heroes - Abandoned

[PeregrineV]

Oh, and the person who used the term white knight... That's a scum claim then you are giving us? Cos to white knight is to (as scum) ride to the rescue of a town player to gain town points.

Which kind of makes

Oops, hit the submit by accident.

Kind of makes peregrine either inexperienced or delusional. Either will make for easy reading when he attempts to gang up on us with skul.

~Jerry

It also means to defend a town player. Since I'm going by that assumption for now, the term is still accurate.

I'd lay money on both inexperienced and delusional. You're sure to win then.

[PeregrineV]

Aren't you sweet. Well, as long as you play like you did in La Isla de la Muerte (aka so obvious-Town that you were the first person to get an invention from me), then I shouldn't have any reason to suspect you.

I forgot that game- I think you were killed early? And we lost?

I do remember liking the game I think, probably because I get it confused with Isla Mujeres.
.

[Skullduggery]

I have highlighted one of my FAVOURITE scumtells in mafia there.

It's known as closing the door. Skulduggery is being self aware, in itself a scum tell , but in order to try and avoid bein drawn into a fight and be prone to scum slips he needs to box in the arguement to try and stop us from going on the attack.

First of all, being self-aware is not a Scum-tell; it's a player-specific attribute.

Secondly, what makes you think that I'm trying to avoid being drawn into a fight? Was it my attempt to initiate a conversation with you in 36? Was it my response to 37 and subsequent proclamation that I caught Scum already? Is it the long post you're reading right now where I make it clear that I'm willing to fight you tooth and nail if I have to? Please, I implore you, illustrate how I am trying to avoid a confrontation with the big bad Minions because I'm afraid of making a "Scum-slip" that could doom me.

My style is conversational and inquiry-based. I'm not afraid to interact with the other players in the game. No matter how many wildly inaccurate assumptions you make about my intentions, you cannot change that fact.

Simplest way to do that is to tell everyone what we will do next IF WE WERE SCUM. The OMGUS vote, the claim of an overreaction (like yours?) and the claim we will insult him cos we are 'caught'?

Oh, look at that -- you called my vote for you an OMGUS just like I knew you would. Guess my prediction wasn't so farfetched after all since

that's exactly what you did.

I don't think I'm overreacting. If I feel so strongly that someone is Scum, I'm going to express that feeling and push to get that Scum-read lynched. That's kind of a thing that you do in Mafia.

Dave is a sweetheart, he likes to stick a finger up at people who think they are being clever.

Sweetheart, huh? Yeah, right. Judging by my first impression of him, you'll have to excuse me if I don't believe you.

What part of 36 do you think was me "being clever"? I asked you a simple question with the intention of starting a conversation with you and "sweetheart" Dave took that as an opportunity to act like an ass and call me out. Tell me how I was "being clever" here.

Rufio has his own line of enquiry and I think it's being fruitful, but I am enjoying watching you panic skul.

That's cute, but saying that I'm panicking doesn't actually mean that I'm panicking. But it's okay, I get it -- you need to slander me and downplay my intentions so the other players won't listen to the person who is trying to get you lynched.

Oh, and the person who used the term white knight... That's a scum claim then you are giving us? Cos to white knight is to (as scum) ride to the rescue of a town player to gain town points.

Kind of makes peregrine either inexperienced or delusional. Either will make for easy reading when he attempts to gang up on us with skul.

Hang on a second. You're accusing Peregrine (Scum) of white-knighting a Town player (me) to gain extra Town cred. So you

do

know that I'm Town but you're trying to lynch me anyway? And you're trying to incriminate Peregrine in the process so that when I die and flip Town, everyone else will go after Peregrine next.

You're making this too easy, Minions~

TheIrishPope is my first decent townread. I can guess from context and a cursory glance at a couple of his other recent games that this isn't his usual style, and this seems like a townish alteration in the way he plays (going from concise to wordy). It's harder to fake being wordier as scum in my opinion, thus making a change like that unlikely to be coming from Pope unless he is town and looking to improve his game. The arbitrary point system is interesting, and seems like an unnecessary add on to the new, wordier style if Pope was simply trying to emulate a more protown approach as scum than his usual MO.

This evaluation of Pope contains a lot of speculation, but very little substance. You think he's Town because he's playing differently than he normally does, but wouldn't a change in style indicate a change in alignment? Or are you saying that you took a cursory glance at only his most recent Scum games and concluded that he must be Town here since he isn't playing like his usual Scum-self? How many games did you look at, anyway? Was he primarily Scum in most of them?

The last sentence also contradicts the rest of the paragraph. You're saying that the addition of the arbitrary points system seems out-of-place and unnecessary, and he wouldn't go that far if he was Scum pretending to be Town...but it makes sense for him to go that far as Town when he actually has to put

less

effort into appearing Town? That doesn't make sense. Why is it perfectly logical for Pope to incorporate the arbitrary points system as Town but not as Scum?

You're fence-sitting and keeping your views of Pope vague so that you can switch to being either his supporter or his attacker depending on how the game plays out.

What part of his post gave you ANY impression He was taking himself seriously?

Did He need to include more seasonal references or maybe he could have tagged it with [sarcasm][/sarcasm] for the slow of mind?

Hey, this will blow your mind...

vote skulduggery

~ Dave

Finally, a Town player has no reason to be so outrageously defensive about an innocent question. Therefore, I am forced to conclude that you are not a Town player. Do you follow my logic or do I need to draw you a picture?


Guys, the Minions are Scum. More votes on them, please.

[Skullduggery]

Aren't you sweet. Well, as long as you play like you did in La Isla de la Muerte (aka so obvious-Town that you were the first person to get an invention from me), then I shouldn't have any reason to suspect you.

I forgot that game- I think you were killed early? And we lost?

I do remember liking the game I think, probably because I get it confused with Isla Mujeres.

I died Night 3 and you died Night 6, but we won in the end. (Game link.)

That was a fun game. I liked that game.

[Kagami]

My apologies for lurking a bit, I had this game on the backburner.

I have to say that I'm a little uncomfortable with the million headed hydra, but at least the players who comprise it make coherent arguments. I like Rufio's point on TIP. I don't like Jerry sort of excusing Dave for being flippant or whatever, but I think that's fine as long as the minions agree on important things like reads and arguments before posting, which it sounds like they do.

Skull: You're exhorting us to vote minions, but I'm not entirely clear on the argument. It feels to me that you're primarily reacting negatively to Dave's insulting post, and some of the arguments you're making above, such as those against both Dave's and Rufio's posts, feel like they're fitting evidence to a read rather than the converse (I don't btw, think that this is alignment indicative). What do you think is the best bit of evidence that suggests Minions is scum?

[Minions]

I have highlighted one of my FAVOURITE scumtells in mafia there.

It's known as closing the door. Skulduggery is being self aware, in itself a scum tell , but in order to try and avoid bein drawn into a fight and be prone to scum slips he needs to box in the arguement to try and stop us from going on the attack.

First of all, being self-aware is not a Scum-tell; it's a player-specific attribute.

Secondly, what makes you think that I'm trying to avoid being drawn into a fight? Was it my attempt to initiate a conversation with you in 36? Was it my response to 37 and subsequent proclamation that I caught Scum already? Is it the long post you're reading right now where I make it clear that I'm willing to fight you tooth and nail if I have to? Please, I implore you, illustrate how I am trying to avoid a confrontation with the big bad Minions because I'm afraid of making a "Scum-slip" that could doom me.

My style is conversational and inquiry-based. I'm not afraid to interact with the other players in the game. No matter how many wildly inaccurate assumptions you make about my intentions, you cannot change that fact.

I think that it's fair to say that our initial assessment of you being confrontational was inaccurate thanks to the current engagement. I don't quite think you're grasping the concept of "closing the door", though. Closing the door is when a player essentially predicts the next move a scum suspect will make, which warns them of what they shouldn't do ahead of time. I personally have no idea why anyone would do this: it seems far more beneficial to call them out for being scum, and then call them out for a bad reaction instead of letting scum know what you would find scummy from them before they even post. The more common reason for closing the door is because you see an obvious problem with your attack and somehow by refuting the rebuttal ahead of time, you can discredit it.

Simplest way to do that is to tell everyone what we will do next IF WE WERE SCUM. The OMGUS vote, the claim of an overreaction (like yours?) and the claim we will insult him cos we are 'caught'?

Oh, look at that -- you called my vote for you an OMGUS just like I knew you would. Guess my prediction wasn't so farfetched after all since

that's exactly what you did.

I don't think I'm overreacting. If I feel so strongly that someone is Scum, I'm going to express that feeling and push to get that Scum-read lynched. That's kind of a thing that you do in Mafia.

For example, I don't see how you predicting us calling your vote OMGUS makes it any less OMGUS - the main brunt of your case is based on our attack on you, and that we've set off on a single-handed mission that begins on page 3 to slander and tarnish your name, which is not typically what scum set out to do in mafia games. I don't think anyone thought your prediction was far fetched (in face, quite accurate): the problem we have with it is that your prediction doesn't actually address anything. For example, I could say that in one of your next posts you are going to type up a quote wall to respond to me, but I wouldn't think that would diminish the points in your quote wall.

Dave is a sweetheart, he likes to stick a finger up at people who think they are being clever.

Sweetheart, huh? Yeah, right. Judging by my first impression of him, you'll have to excuse me if I don't believe you.

What part of 36 do you think was me "being clever"? I asked you a simple question with the intention of starting a conversation with you and "sweetheart" Dave took that as an opportunity to act like an ass and call me out. Tell me how I was "being clever" here.

Since I don't find dissecting your posts to find where you were being clever and where you weren't being clever fruitful, I'd rather ask why it matters that our sweetheart "acted like an ass and called you out". You yourself stated that you were a conversational and confrontational player, so it doesn't seem like calling someone out is a horribly large scumtell, no matter the substance of the call out. I also don't think that a bad attitude is indicative of alignment; if anything, having a confrontational attitude and more of an "in-your-face" attitude is more indicative of town, since it's not the type of thing to make you any friends.

Rufio has his own line of enquiry and I think it's being fruitful, but I am enjoying watching you panic skul.

That's cute, but saying that I'm panicking doesn't actually mean that I'm panicking. But it's okay, I get it -- you need to slander me and downplay my intentions so the other players won't listen to the person who is trying to get you lynched.

Saying that your opponent is "panicking", "afraid", "flailing", are basic signs of aggression, an attempt to call them on their fear while they are writing in order to make their posts more self-conscious. You calling this slander is going a bit overboard.

Oh, and the person who used the term white knight... That's a scum claim then you are giving us? Cos to white knight is to (as scum) ride to the rescue of a town player to gain town points.

Kind of makes peregrine either inexperienced or delusional. Either will make for easy reading when he attempts to gang up on us with skul.

Hang on a second. You're accusing Peregrine (Scum) of white-knighting a Town player (me) to gain extra Town cred. So you

do

know that I'm Town but you're trying to lynch me anyway? And you're trying to incriminate Peregrine in the process so that when I die and flip Town, everyone else will go after Peregrine next.

You're making this too easy, Minions~

It's a separate line of enquiry. As you can probably guess based on how far along the game is and how much everyone has posted thus far, we are not sure you are scum quite yet, although we do have our theories. Meanwhile, we see PeregrineV treating you like he knows you're town and chainsawing us as a result; we felt there was a possibility he was trying to provoke the argument happening here and encourage people to choose sides, which would suggest town!Skull and scum!PeregrineV. Your argument suggesting that we are looking down the road to after your lynch suggests we have incredible and unnecessary foresight; do you really think we would already be thinking of what move to make after your lynch on page 3?

TheIrishPope is my first decent townread. I can guess from context and a cursory glance at a couple of his other recent games that this isn't his usual style, and this seems like a townish alteration in the way he plays (going from concise to wordy). It's harder to fake being wordier as scum in my opinion, thus making a change like that unlikely to be coming from Pope unless he is town and looking to improve his game. The arbitrary point system is interesting, and seems like an unnecessary add on to the new, wordier style if Pope was simply trying to emulate a more protown approach as scum than his usual MO.

This evaluation of Pope contains a lot of speculation, but very little substance. You think he's Town because he's playing differently than he normally does, but wouldn't a change in style indicate a change in alignment? Or are you saying that you took a cursory glance at only his most recent Scum games and concluded that he must be Town here since he isn't playing like his usual Scum-self? How many games did you look at, anyway? Was he primarily Scum in most of them?

The last sentence also contradicts the rest of the paragraph. You're saying that the addition of the arbitrary points system seems out-of-place and unnecessary, and he wouldn't go that far if he was Scum pretending to be Town...but it makes sense for him to go that far as Town when he actually has to put

less

effort into appearing Town? That doesn't make sense. Why is it perfectly logical for Pope to incorporate the arbitrary points system as Town but not as Scum?

You're fence-sitting and keeping your views of Pope vague so that you can switch to being either his supporter or his attacker depending on how the game plays out.

You are correct that my read on Pope contains a large amount of speculation, considering it's an early read based on his meta and how I would expect him to approach trying out a new style as town or scum. This doesn't make the read any less valid. I looked at both his town games and his scum games: the playstyle here is different from either alignment. Next, we try to determine the motivation behind a deliberate playstyle change: this one in particular is to "analyze every post", as cristovo pointed out. This, in and of itself, shows a drive to create more content than he would normally, which is fairly town motivation, although the motivation for scum in adopting a more conventional and content-driven is obvious. What makes the numbers system interesting and more town oriented is the fact that they are an attempt to objectify scumhunting: the motivation for town being that he can look at his list, vote the person with the most points, and have a better idea how far apart his reads are in strength. As scum, the motivation isn't as clear. Does he think anyone will pick up on this point in advance? Probably not. Does he think adding +1 next to his evaluations will make those evaluations more pro-town in any way? Can't really see why he would. So, my conclusion, since on the whole the playstyle change has more motivation for town than it has for scum, is that Pope is town. I thought this was already clearly explained in my last post and I didn't think my choice of language left much uncertainty as to what I thought his alignment was, so your fence-sitting charge is inaccurate. You choosing to make that attack in response to my post is part of why your attack feels so much like OMGUS. At no part during your response to me does it feel like you actually sat down and considered what we were saying. It just feels like your pride was hurt and you would like us to be scum as a result.

What part of his post gave you ANY impression He was taking himself seriously?

Did He need to include more seasonal references or maybe he could have tagged it with [sarcasm][/sarcasm] for the slow of mind?

Hey, this will blow your mind...

vote skulduggery

~ Dave

Finally, a Town player has no reason to be so outrageously defensive about an innocent question. Therefore, I am forced to conclude that you are not a Town player. Do you follow my logic or do I need to draw you a picture?


Guys, the Minions are Scum. More votes on them, please.

Your logic seems to be based on the conception that Town players and Scum players act in a cookie-cutter fashion, which is the largest problem of the bits of your case against us that I can parse. Why would Scum call the case against them OMGUS when town would not? There clearly are pretty good reasons for doing so. Why would Scum be outrageously defensive about an innocent question but town would not? Do you honestly think that there exists a player who sees the mafia role PM in their inbox and immediately begins to panic and melt down whenever someone asks them what their favorite color is? You can tell me that Town will do one thing and Scum will do another thing, but unless you explain the reasoning behind these theories, there isn't a whole lot of logic to follow.



Overall, I'm not convinced about your alignment either way. What this wall did tell me is that you did have plenty of conviction in your attack to the point where you decided to attack every post in our ISO in order to get traction against us, which was a bit misguided, to be sure, but something that I find to be more town-motivated early game since we've been active enough early game and haven't mistakenly come off as an enemy you wouldn't mind having. I will touch base with the others to see if we can't find anything else interesting at this point in time; the pieguyn-cristovo argument didn't go quite where I hoped it would, but that doesn't necessarily mean it isn't worth revisiting.

~Rufio

[Minions]

VOTE: Minions

Are there 7+ heads in this one, too?

oh this should be good

Let's see, there's me (jerry), Phil, Dave, Rufio, simon, Neil, Kevin, Stewart...

I forget the others.

stuart*
:<

My apologies for lurking a bit, I had this game on the backburner.

I have to say that I'm a little uncomfortable with the million headed hydra, but at least the players who comprise it make coherent arguments. I like Rufio's point on TIP. I don't like Jerry sort of excusing Dave for being flippant or whatever, but I think that's fine as long as the minions agree on important things like reads and arguments before posting, which it sounds like they do.

so you don't like Jerry excusing Dave for being flippant, I assume because you don't want stronger heads standing up for others? or something? but it's okay because we agree on reads and arguments before posting.

Vote: Kagami

I skimmed the hell out of Rufio's post, suggest everyone else does the same

~ Stuart

[Kagami]

I have not read any of your games, as it seems like it would be a massive headache to try to meta 8+ players in one slot, so I have no idea which heads are "weak" and which aren't.

I'm sure you recognize the massive advantage that such a multi-headed hydra has as scum. I'm asking/expecting that there won't be any "Oh, Alice said this and that, but now that I see that the argument isn't gaining traction, so I, Bob, disagree and will pursue something completely different."

[Minions]

I have not read any of your games, as it seems like it would be a massive headache to try to meta 8+ players in one slot, so I have no idea which heads are "weak" and which aren't.

I'm sure you recognize the massive advantage that such a multi-headed hydra has as scum. I'm asking/expecting that there won't be any "Oh, Alice said this and that, but now that I see that the argument isn't gaining traction, so I, Bob, disagree and will pursue something completely different."

I love that you created this false dichotomy that because we have a lot of heads, we must ONLY have an advantage as scum

I have not read any of your games, as it seems like it would be a massive headache to try to meta 8+ players in one slot, so I have no idea which heads are "weak" and which aren't.

I'm sure you recognize the massive advantage that such a multi-headed hydra has as scum. I'm asking/expecting that there won't be any "Oh, Alice said this and that, but now that I see that the argument isn't gaining traction, so I, Bob, disagree and will pursue something completely different."

I love this false dichotomy that you created that simply because we have a lot of us, we must ONLY be good at scum.

~ Dave (official catch up tomorrow)

[Kagami]

How is it a false dichotomy? The primary advantage of a hydra is that it is difficult to read and can get away with whimsical reads more easily. Both are radically more advantageous to scum.

[killerjester]

THE THIRD VOTECOUNT OF DAY 1

Wake88 -[0]-
Antihero -[2]- Kagami, Varsoon
Skullduggery -[1]- SMP
Varsoon -[0]-
Bicephalous Bob -[0]-
Kagami -[1]- Minions
aptil -[0]-
PeregrineV -[0]-
TheIrishPope -[1]- aptil
Minions -[3]- Wake88, PeregrineV, Skullduggery
pieguyn -[1]- cristovo017
cristovo017 -[1]- pieguyn
SMP -[0]-

Not voting: Antihero, Bicephalous Bob, TheIrishPope

V/LA: Bicephalous Bob - 12/30, PeregrineV - 1/8

With 13 alive, it will take 7 to lynch, or 7 to no lynch

The deadline is in (expired on 2014-01-11 15:25:00), or January 11th, 2014 @3:25pm EST

Prods going out to TIP, SMP, aptil, and Varsoon

[Varsoon]

Got my prod!~

There's loads of content here and we're only 3 pages in.
I've gotta scan it when I've got some tizzlytime~

unvote

for now.
Don't think Antihero's feeling that pressure.

[TheIrishPope]

I'm here I'm here
Gonna analyze Minion dugerry stuff

[Varsoon]

There's a load of it.

If anything, it makes me think they're both town. The huge walling reminds me of my own town v town spats with other players in the past.
Smart scum wouldn't give town so much to work with, IMO.
I guess genius scum would be able to make it all town, though.
Regardless, the content lets us read both slots with more accuracy/transparency, which is something I think scum would avoid. Of course, I only really have experience reading Skull, and Minions is a uber-hydra (OR SO I AM LED TO BELIEVE).

So many shrugs, my shoulders are sore.

[killerjester]

Oh and Antihero is prodded as well.

[TheIrishPope]

Yeah I'm with Varsoon here

[Varsoon]

High-fives?

Re-godless, this game needs some pushing. We're only 3 pages in.

:/

[Minions]

How is it a false dichotomy? The primary advantage of a hydra is that it is difficult to read and can get away with whimsical reads more easily. Both are radically more advantageous to scum.

also more eyes on thread and more content produced, which is pretty great for town too. also, a hint: if you can read one head of a hydra, you can read them all. i don't really know why some people treat them as singular entities.

I'm here I'm here
Gonna analyze Minion dugerry stuff

just put my town points up to the maximum level and then proceed from there

~ Stuart

[TheIrishPope]

Maximum level is 0 right now because all you fuckers are acting scummy

[Varsoon]

Hydras are pretty simple beasts to tackle. If they play anti-town, then they're anti-town. If they play pro-town, then they're pro-town. Not so difficult.

Minions, do you have any other reasons for voting Kagami?

[Varsoon]

Maximum level is 0 right now because all you fuckers are acting scummy

oh, so no high-fives?

[Minions]

Maximum level is 0 right now because all you fuckers are acting scummy

your points system sucks.

Hydras are pretty simple beasts to tackle. If they play anti-town, then they're anti-town. If they play pro-town, then they're pro-town. Not so difficult.

Minions, do you have any other reasons for voting Kagami?

no but i could also vote wake for avoiding the thread, if you like that reasoning better
and i guess i could also push a case on Kagami for asking a bunch of useless questions and doing a bunch if safe things but my heart really wouldn't be in it.

~ Stuart

[TheIrishPope]

Yeah high five but we need to work more

[SMP]

I'm here still.

I can see a multi headed hydra being helpful to town even if the hydra is scum. The more heads there are the more posts are made. The more posts that are made the more likely a scumslip will happen. All it takes is one head to slip and the whole thing is screwed.

[TheIrishPope]

Yeah no that's bullshit