Open 551: Hard Boiled - GAME OVER

[Quill]

Okay, so the vibe I'm getting is that you're voting me because of the reason below, which is that you think protector is scummy? Once again: You are voting me because someone else looks scummy and I don't agree that that person is scummy? To further clarify: You have a scumread, who is not me, who you are not voting for so that you can vote for me instead on worse justification? I just want to make sure I'm not missing something vital that would make this seem more like something a town player would do.

I have knowledge about protector that you don't (tangentially about why she'd replace out) that isn't directly about the game at all. It gave me an alternative explanation for why her posts would sound the way his did. You getting a town read from her actions though is completely unbelievable to me, and smells like someone that already knew her alignment.

Okay, I'm sorry that you know Protector well enough that you have pregame information possessed by none of the other players in this game, and can also meta her in general. I don't have either of those skills, so in my opinion, her response felt fine. Not "oh my god, she's the towniest townie who ever towned." Just fine.

I mean, feel free to keep voting me if you want to be stubborn, but just realize that if that's your only reason for doing so you're both wrong and grabbing at twigs.

I don't know why Kid A feels like we should still randomly vote for people at this point in the game, but I don't like the possibilities. Is his unhelpfulness/lack of reasoning a thing people can confirm is meta for him?

Vote: Kid A

[Kid A]

i rolled a dice and then voted based on the number

Oh okay.

While you're rolling dice, mind telling us why the change of heart about pointing out town posts, between this game and your most recent game?

well the game you posted ended in a flawless scum victory so i decided maybe playing mafia like that didnt work very well

[Kid A]

also i genuinely like my earthquake vote now btw i think if he was town and thought my vote was shit he would have voted back but instead he said why i was scum but didnt vote me ??

[Lia]

I explained in 49 why I left the vote there and why there was no longer a reason to leave it there. "Getting a little twinge" is not the same as having an epiphany.

What do you mean by "the momentum on CDB's vote"?

I'm taking you missed where I already had said I didn't like the reasoning you used to move the vote in the same post I voted you.

CDB's vote comes as a direct result of your 49, it's what I was referring to. When I read it, I had a similar reaction to that post... (although admittedly mine comes from different reasoning).

I didn't miss your post. I just don't get how your not liking epiphanies has anything to do with me, or how you find me scummy for both not moving my vote, and for moving it. Then you say you had a similar reaction to CDB's, but for different reasoning, but I don't think CDB ever gave his actual reasoning, so how do you know yours was different? Tell me, what was CDB's reason for voting me? (@CDB: Please let Zar answer this.)

[Lia]

Do you think that I am more likely to do that as scum than town? Why?

I don't know whether you would or not. But if I thought it was the former I would have voted you.

If you have no inclination as to whether or not it is alignment-indicative, why did you bring it up?

Because it bothered me; and if the Dritan slot flips scum it might be worth following up on later.

The fact that Lia hasn't really answered any questions doesn't make me want to pull my vote but I'm not sure if that's a justified opinion at this point.

What questions haven't I answered?

[ChannelDelibird]

Mod: Can we have a Vote Count, please?

Lia: This is me acknowledging that I'm not answering 153 before Zar does.

I feel like Kid A is where scum would most likely want to be voting at this point so, depending on how the Vote Count looks (there's no recent one and I can't be arsed to count up myself), I might move my vote to someone on that wagon. Zar, at least, is doing some detective work on that front with the meta stuff but "uncooperative player doing himself no favours" is a pretty ideal vote for scum.

Chamber: does "reasons" translate to "knowing Protector's main"?

[chamber]

That's only part of it, but yes.

[Egg]

V/LA extended til Sunday because my car broke down on my 3 hour drive to work while I'm sick on my girlfriend's birthday and now I have to deal with it tomorrow.

[Formerfish]

Post some reads.

i only have town reads right now so i am not posting any reads

Why would you only post scum reads? I feel like we've been down this road before. Fruit basket maybe?

Well, seeing as no epiphany was involved that shouldn't bother you then. The vote would have been moved whether or not Egg or anyone else said anything as there was no longer a reason to leave it there. Do you think there was?

What did you like about CDB's vote on me?

Possibly because you had

just

stated you thought the wagon was "serendipitous"... if you thought you were getting lucky with the vote where it was, why was there no longer a reason to leave it there?

(This is also the reason why I liked the momentum on CDB's vote on you...)

I like the way you think, its linear and easy to follow. Seems like its coming from a town mentality. The rest of your iso reads the same.

Vote quill

They way protector handled her wagon was very poor and forced imo. I was torn between wondering if it was forced for *reasons* or forced because she's scum.

I still don't understand what this us saying or why you are voting Quill.

VOTE: earthquake

I hate, hate, hate naked votes. It leaves everything up to interpretation and leaves the voter with no accountability. Wagon never starts, oh well I was just going for reactions. Wagon starts gaining traction, allows time to manufacture reasoning to support said wagon. I especially dislike that you act like its our fault for not being able to read into every nuanced aspect of your play to understand your motivation and goal here.

Okay, so the vibe I'm getting is that you're voting me because of the reason below, which is that you think protector is scummy? Once again: You are voting me because someone else looks scummy and I don't agree that that person is scummy? To further clarify: You have a scumread, who is not me, who you are not voting for so that you can vote for me instead on worse justification? I just want to make sure I'm not missing something vital that would make this seem more like something a town player would do.

I have knowledge about protector that you don't (tangentially about why she'd replace out) that isn't directly about the game at all. It gave me an alternative explanation for why her posts would sound the way his did. You getting a town read from her actions though is completely unbelievable to me, and smells like someone that already knew her alignment.

Does the knowledge of outside game activities have anything to do with alignment? If so how?

@Quill, I'm not sure. KidA is being opportunistic as fuck. First was the early wagon he's talking about scum being the next to post if the poster doesn't basically claim to want to hammer Protector. Then he's jumping over onto me, which seems to be a clear chainsaw naked vote. He couldn't even say, gee sheeping CDB's reasons (who wasn't voting me).

paranoid scum inventing reasons for my vote

VOTE: earthquake

I thought the reason for your lack of reasoning was having town-reads...

@Quill, I'm not sure. KidA is being opportunistic as fuck. First was the early wagon he's talking about scum being the next to post if the poster doesn't basically claim to want to hammer Protector. Then he's jumping over onto me, which seems to be a clear chainsaw naked vote. He couldn't even say, gee sheeping CDB's reasons (who wasn't voting me).

I have a different problem with Kid's vote than that, and it's basically that you can only

assume

it's for what you're stating. There's nothing to back it up with, just a hollow vote for us to speculate on. It's empty, convenient contribution IMO.

Vote: KidA

possible scumbuddy

Or town trying to understand why you are voting a particular way. I have a townish read on EQ so I'm curious for your reasoning as well. Did I miss something you picked up on? If you don't feel like sharing with the class don't get upset when we don't drop to our knees and hail you as the second coming. Do you generally scum read people who see you as scummy?

also i genuinely like my earthquake vote now btw i think if he was town and thought my vote was shit he would have voted back but instead he said why i was scum but didnt vote me ??

So you would want him to omgus you?

Mod: Can we have a Vote Count, please?

Lia: This is me acknowledging that I'm not answering 153 before Zar does.

I feel like Kid A is where scum would most likely want to be voting at this point so, depending on how the Vote Count looks (there's no recent one and I can't be arsed to count up myself), I might move my vote to someone on that wagon. Zar, at least, is doing some detective work on that front with the meta stuff but "uncooperative player doing himself no favours" is a pretty ideal vote for scum.

Chamber: does "reasons" translate to "knowing Protector's main"?

I disagree. I think that his obstinance is very off putting to town. His refusal to back up statements with sensible arguments is exactly what scum is forced to do when inventing scum reads. Breaking Kids play into the category you did seems like an oversimplification and an attempt to trivialize peoples views on said player. I can't figure out if you are white knighting, misreading, or protecting a buddy right now.

Two out of three scenarios has Kid A as scum so

unvote, vote kid a

[ChannelDelibird]

I disagree. I think that his obstinance is very off putting to town. His refusal to back up statements with sensible arguments is exactly what scum is forced to do when inventing scum reads.

Is he off-putting? Sure. Do I think he's more likely to act this way as scum than town? Not especially. I don't think he's being particularly helpful but, in my admittedly somewhat limited experience of playing with Kid A and looking at his approach here, it seems like a misguided general attitude to the game more than an approach that he wouldn't take as town. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just think it's not a particularly interesting vote and, if he is town, he's the sort of mislynch that scum would immediately see as achievable.

Breaking Kids play into the category you did seems like an oversimplification and an attempt to trivialize peoples views on said player.

Kinda. I don't think he's being approached with a great deal of critical thinking, Zar aside.

VOTE: Quill

[Kid A]

1

Why would you only post scum reads? I feel like we've been down this road before. Fruit basket maybe?

2

I hate, hate, hate naked votes. It leaves everything up to interpretation and leaves the voter with no accountability. Wagon never starts, oh well I was just going for reactions. Wagon starts gaining traction, allows time to manufacture reasoning to support said wagon. I especially dislike that you act like its our fault for not being able to read into every nuanced aspect of your play to understand your motivation and goal here.

3

Or town trying to understand why you are voting a particular way. I have a townish read on EQ so I'm curious for your reasoning as well. Did I miss something you picked up on? If you don't feel like sharing with the class don't get upset when we don't drop to our knees and hail you as the second coming. Do you generally scum read people who see you as scummy?

4

So you would want him to omgus you?

1 - my town reads arent useful information for other town players but they are useful information for scum players
2 - i didnt expect anyone to know why i placed my vote
3 - if he actually wanted to know why i voted he surely would have asked me - he was clearly more interested in pushing a wagon than actually understanding my play
4 - i dont give a fuck if its an omgus vote i want him to grow a dick and conclude his list of reasons why i am scum with a vote on me instead of waiting for him scumbud to push the wagon for him

[Not_Mafia]

Do you realise how scummy you are acting? You haven't ever tried to actually explain your posts despite people asking you to until now, you don't just get to troll and place random votes and say random crap until someone gets bored and stops asking you what you're doing

[Zar]

I didn't miss your post. I just don't get how your not liking epiphanies has anything to do with me, or how you find me scummy for both not moving my vote, and for moving it.

You got your 'hunch', so to speak, then Egg comments on your vote and you move it off the wagon immediately after. You may say it would have come off of the wagon at that point regardless, but I suspect the move had to do with Egg commenting on your vote than a sincere desire to move it.

Then you say you had a similar reaction to CDB's, but for different reasoning, but I don't think CDB ever gave his actual reasoning, so how do you know yours was different? Tell me, what was CDB's reason for voting me? (@CDB: Please let Zar answer this.)

CDB quoted two points out of your 49 that aren't related to the reasoning behind my vote. This is why led me to assume his reasoning is different to mine.

@Kid you're wrong about your town reads not being useful for other town players.

[Antihero]

sooooo...

formerfish is scum

that's cool

VOTE: formerfish

[Antihero]

the whole attack on kid a stems from playstyle. votes without reasoning can come from either alignment (i do it all the time)

formerfish has been here 9 months and should know that by now and he's picking easy prey

not_mafia's last post is kind of passive-aggressive and i don't like it

[Not_Mafia]

You want passive agressive, I'll give you passive agressive...

Reading it back it does come off quite aggressive, what I'm saying is, he has been called out for failing to provide reasoning a few times now, then when someone doesn't ask him he hops on a scumread on them, it's contrived

[Not_Mafia]

You want passive agressive, I'll give you passive agressive...

Spoiler:

Reading it back it does come off quite aggressive, what I'm saying is, he has been called out for failing to provide reasoning a few times now, then when someone doesn't ask him he hops on a scumread on them, it's contrived

That's nicer

[Antihero]

so, you think he's scum or...

...not?

[Zar]

I said scum or *reasons*, *reasons* being related to info that I had from pregame that quill couldn't have possibly had. There is no inconsistency here.

I'm just trying to pick your brain. The only time I've seen you play in Westeros [you were scum], and CES argued you weren't town because you not looking so. I remembered I had seen your play back in Team Mafia 2012, and I was able to gather a relatively solid townread from you early on for my team-member Isa in our Team QT... my comments on it said I was convinced you were town from me resonating with your train of thought. I skimmed your ISO there and saw in one of your posts CES said the same thing. You weren't saying much, so I was basically trying to get some insight from you mostly to see whether or not I could see were your reasoning was coming from to try to form an opinion on your slot. I think I can see how I could react similarly [re: Protector inside info].

[Not_Mafia]

Right now I think he's scum, I think he's trying to pass off what he's been doing as a reaction test, waiting for someone to stop reacting to him and then exclaiming "aha! they didn't ask me about my vote!" I think he panicked when the wagon started on him and he's now using a contrived act to try and excuse his behaviour.

[Antihero]

there's no logical thread that ties any of that together

you're scum

[Not_Mafia]

You caught me. gg no re.

[Antihero]

awesome. 2 down 1 to go.

[shos]

Still looking for replacement for Dratin. Votecount and updates will come in about 3-4 hours. keep being active!

[Antihero]

you're welcome, shos

the party only starts when i get here