NY 172: Another Large Normal (GAME OVER)

[fferyllt]

btw I was a compulsive even night vig. I had planned to out my full role if I made it to day 5.

[4nxi3ty]

toughluck scum this game could've been alot closer
atleast it ended sorta mercifully shorter, I guess

still gg all; I had fun even when being scumread.

[Plessiez]

The scum team had terrible luck.

They really did.

[TheWayItEnds]

Hmmm.

Thats like the best kind of being wrong.

The kind where you wake up and the games over and you win.

Well I still think that went okay for my first game in like 3 years.

[Plessiez]

Setup

12

vanilla townies

(4nxi3ty, Damon_Gant, DeasVail, Egg, Luca Blight, Nero Cain, penguin_alien, PeregrineV, SnowStorm, talah, TheWayItEnds, Zdenek)

1

town gunsmith

(Snork)

1

town compulsive even-night vigilante

(fferyllt)

1

town JOAT (jailkeeper/friendly neighbor)

(RachMarie)

1

town JOAT (bodyguard/vigilante)

(Six)

3

mafia goons

(AngryPidgeon, mastin2, Yates)

1

mafia ascetic

(ThAdmiral)

---

Night 1 Actions

AngryPidgeon shot Zdenek.

aptil shot talah.
RachMarie sent a friendly message to Nero.
Snork learnt that DV does not have a gun.

Night 2 Actions

Yates shot Nero Cain.

projectmatt shot 4nxi3ty.
Snork learnt that AP has a gun.

Neither RachMarie nor SiX sent in a PM, so both defaulted to "no action".

Night 3 Actions

ThAdmiral shot RachMarie.

SiX guarded Snork (so no shots left).
Snork learnt that TWIE does not have a gun.

RachMarie sent in no PM and defaulted to "no action".

---

Role PMs

Obviously the vanilla town role PM is quoted in the first posts.

Spoiler: Town PR PMs

Welcome to the game,

aptil

SiX

. You are a

town jack-of-all-trades

.

During the day you can read the thread, post in the thread, and vote. At night, you may choose to imitate the action of one of the roles listed below. You may only attempt one action at a time. You may only use each action once. You lose your ability after a failed attempt, unless I say otherwise prior to the next game day.

Bodyguard

Send the mod the name of a living player to protect. If your action is successful, and if that player would otherwise die at night, you will die in their place (and no protective action targeting you can prevent this). If more than one player attempts to kill your target at night, then you may both die.

Vigilante

Send the mod the name of a living player to shoot. If your action is successful then that player will die that night.

You win once all non-town players are eliminated as long as at least one town-aligned player remains alive.

Welcome to the game,

RachMarie

. You are a

town jack-of-all-trades

.

During the day you can read the thread, post in the thread, and vote. At night, you may choose to imitate the action of one of the roles listed below. You may only attempt one action at a time. You may only use each action once. You lose your ability after a failed attempt, unless I say otherwise prior to the next game day.

Friendly Neighbor

Send the mod the name of a living player to greet. If your action is successful, then that player will be sent a message by the mod saying “

RachMarie is mod-confirmed to be aligned with the town

”.

Jailkeeper

Send the mod the name of a living player to guard. If your action is successful, then that player will not be able to take any action during the night. They will not die during the night either, regardless of any number of attempts to kill them.

You win once all non-town players are eliminated as long as at least one town-aligned player remains alive.

Welcome to the game,

projectmatt

fferyllt

. You are a

town compulsive even-night vigilante

.

During the day you can read the thread, post in the thread, and vote. On odd-numbered nights, you cannot do anything else. But on even-numbered nights, you must submit the name of a player to attempt to shoot. If your action is successful, that player will die that night.

You win once all non-town players are eliminated as long as at least one town-aligned player remains alive.

Welcome to the game,

bjc

Snork

. You are a

town gunsmith

.

During the day you can read the thread, post in the thread, and vote. Every night, you may name one living player to investigate. If your investigation is successful, before the start of the next game day you will be told if that player “

has a gun

” or ”

does not have a gun

”. A player “has a gun” if they have (or had) the ability to kill at night and if their victims are described in the morning's flavour-text as being shot. If a player's killing ability has some other flavour, or if they do not have the ability to kill, they will be reported as “does not have a gun”.

You win once all non-town players are eliminated as long as at least one town-aligned player remains alive.

Spoiler: Mafia PMs

Welcome to the game,

Smudger

AngryPidgeon

. You are a

mafia goon

.

During the day you may read the thread, post in the thread, and vote. You may also post in your secret QT with your partners

Yates

,

mastin2

and

ThAdmiral

.

At night, you can continue to post in your QT. Exactly one of the living mafia may pick a player to shoot, either by PMing the mod or by bolding “

SHOOT: [NAME]

” in the QT. If this action is successful, the targeted player will die at night.

You win once all possible threats to your faction are eliminated as long as at least one mafia-aligned player is still alive.

Welcome to the game,

ThAdmiral

. You are a

mafia ascetic

..

During the day you may read the thread, post in the thread, and vote. You may also post in your secret QT with your partners

Yates

,

mastin2

and

Smudger

.

At night, you can continue to post in your QT. Exactly one of the living mafia may pick a player to shoot, either by PMing the mod or by bolding “

SHOOT: [NAME]

” in the QT. If this action is successful, the targeted player will die at night.

If you personally do not pick a player to shoot – and only if then – you are immune to all night actions. Any attempt to target you with any night action will fail, exactly as if the player targeting you had been roleblocked.

You win once all possible threats to your faction are eliminated and at least one mafia-aligned player is still alive.

[ThAdmiral]

Worst balance I've ever seen. And that's saying something, since I've seen my own modded games.

Even with the best possible luck scum were fucked in this game.

[Nero Cain]

Were is the scum qt?

[penguin_alien]

Heh, Nero really wanted me dead.

Thanks for the game, Plessiez!

I think an always-active mafia ascetic would have been fine though. Given they had to make it through, what, six mislynches with all kills going through, minus any vig shots on town, that's just a really long slog. Five if both the compulsive vig shots hit town.

This framework also seems nice for adding in a non-gunbearing SK.

[Damon_Gant]

If the lynch goes through on TWIE on Day 2 and the situation becomes 14 players, 4 scum then it's a different ball-game. I wouldn't call myself qualified to discuss the balance of this game, but I know that the outcome of this particular game was heavily swung in town's favour for many reasons, and so it isn't a good judge of the actual balance.

[fferyllt]

The setup was really well done to cause huge skepticism about the PRs, given the counterclaims built into it. But, a bunch of town players had towned it up enough to find each other and that held things together. Doesn't always happen that way. Didn't happen that way in this game.

I think one joat having a friendly neighbor shot actually detracted from that. After I joined the game the acceptance of both joats as town plus the acceptance of 2 town kills blew me away, but I put it aside for the game day because the town, who had lived through all the claims were mostly confident SiX was town.

[Nero Cain]

Heh, Nero really wanted me dead.

You'd prob want me dead if I pushing on Mastin but not really pushing.

[ThAdmiral]

Firstly scum needed one member who didn't give a positive to the gunsmith.

Secondly the gunsmith should have technically got a positive off a "cop" role, like a gunsmith role is supposed to.

Thirdly the friendly neighbour ability is just unnecessary.

Fourthly if you are going to give this much power to town give more than just a ascetic role to scum that would have looked suspect even if it had worked. Plus it didn't even work if I had to shoot someone so when I was by myself it was just one rung above completely useless.

Lastly yes even with all that we were unlucky in that all the roles were on people that at points looked like possible lynch targets, and other lynch targets were cleared by the gunsmith.

Fact is the gunsmith was a cop in this game with a

very

slight chance to make it uncomfortable for one of the vig roles who in turn had a decent chance of being believed by town anyway if they claimed.

This game proves, yet again, that if you put a cop in a game and don't either give the scum a lot of power to fight it, or make it heavily reduced (for example one shot would have gotten closer to balanced) it makes it almost impossible for the scum to win unless they somehow luckily kill it day 1 or 2.

In this set up scum should have either had 5, had some decent prs, or at very least there should have been an sk to add more of a wild card element.

[ThAdmiral]

Like I hate to sound like a bitter sore loser after a game but I do feel we were up against it, and I don't know why yates was modkilled either.

Aside from that I do thank the mod for running the game. Was always active with votecounts and did a great job getting replacements to keep the game ticking over.

[Lost Butterfly]

The town have like...1 strong role. And even then the Ascetic works fine against it most of the game. Don't understand the complaints over the balance? I think you're strongly overestimating the strength of a gunsmith in a large game, anyway. Sure it's strong but the rest of the town roles aren't particularly great and given the level of power needed for a larger scumteam it seems fine. (The yates modkill was annoying timing, but I assume something else caused it since I think what he did wasn't modkill worthy - whereas the town oog message thing prob was imo?)

/observer

[ThAdmiral]

If this game was played 10 times town would win 7-8 of them. Guarantee it.

Vig hit only town in this game. Could you imagine what would have gone down if they actually hit scum?
As I said only way scum wins is by luckily killing the gunsmith before they claim, else there is way too many clears for the scum to have to kill through (or just straight up scum results). Plus town has two ways to protect the gunsmith after he claims anyway.

The one other slightly possible chance for scum to win is if gunsmith targets one of the vigs at night and town doesn't believe the claim and lynches. Even then it probably just evens it up a little bit.

4 scum 16 town everyone vanilla is very close to balanced, and in this town gains 4 very relevant prs including one powerful one, and scum get one fairly shitty pr. At very least scum needed a rb to deal with the gunsmith. There was no way for us to play around it.

[ThAdmiral]

Town can win on night 2 in this game! Extremely unlikely but the possibility exists.

Best case scenario for scum, including vigs only hitting town, gunsmith being shot night one, friendly neighbour being killed as well etc. is 5 mislynches in a row.

[Cabd]

I was watching and also disagreed with the Yates modkill.

There was no way of knowing that the tab visible in his screenshot was THIS game's mafia QT. If that was a modkill because of that, it should have been an entire games set sitewide thing. (Personally it's not mod-killable either way IMO)


The out of game messaging was terrible too, and also agree that was more modkill worthy if anything.

[ThAdmiral]

Well I have even more reason to feel aggrieved then.

[Burning_Earth]

Worst balance I've ever seen. And that's saying something, since I've seen my own modded games.

Even with the best possible luck scum were fucked in this game.

I agree.

Sometimes this site's crusade for town-sidedness goes a bit too far.

[Burning_Earth]

I wouldn't give 5 scum, but a couple more scum PRs or an SK was really needed.

[Tierce]

Well I have even more reason to feel aggrieved then.

Or maybe not, when you don't have all the information on what happened. You're making assumptions because you don't have the complete information and feel slighted because the result punished your team, but that's part of what a modkill involves, and it was not a decision that was taken lightly. We were not out to punish

you

and I was sorry that you had to deal with the rest of the game by yourself, but you have no reason to feel aggrieved toward Plessiez or anyone but Yates.

The concept of scum having to work to win a game is not and should not be new. The concept of scum being able to lose even if they play a perfect game should not be new.
The balance was pretty decent and I would have liked to play in this game if it had been an option.

[Nero Cain]

A 5th scum would have been reasonable. Ple could have taken one of the vts or if he wanted to keep the same town setup add a new slot and make it a 21 player game then that would have been fine too.

but ultimately town played well and that's why we won.

[Nero Cain]

I also predicted scum bitching.

I suggested a Yates force replace 'cause a modkill p much fucked the scumteam over but Yates couldn't talk about his slip

[ThAdmiral]

Well I have even more reason to feel aggrieved then.

Or maybe not, when you don't have all the information on what happened. You're making assumptions because you don't have the complete information and feel slighted because the result punished your team, but that's part of what a modkill involves, and it was not a decision that was taken lightly. We were not out to punish

you

and I was sorry that you had to deal with the rest of the game by yourself, but you have no reason to feel aggrieved toward Plessiez or anyone but Yates.

The concept of scum having to work to win a game is not and should not be new. The concept of scum being able to lose even if they play a perfect game should not be new.
The balance was pretty decent and I would have liked to play in this game if it had been an option.

Oh just let me have my bitch, please.



...seriously though the game wasn't balanced

[ThAdmiral]

but ultimately town played well and that's why we won.

I certainly think some town played really well, yourself included. I also think there were other town that were gifted with roles/results that gave them almost 100% clears despite their play. Not naming names or anything...