Mini 1626: Duck Tales Mafia (Game Over)

[KittyCupCake]

Cupcake was asking TW leading questions in order to illicit specific responses to justify the switch.

Objection! Leading the witness! It's a tactic so common and so duplicitous that it is prohibited in a courtroom.

Please, quote one leading question. I can't wait to see this.

It's not as simple as "look, this sentence is formed in such a way as to be cooperative rather than adversarial!" It's the tone of their whole exchange from 128 to 183, culminating in 208 and 211, giving TW a chance to make himself (it's basically all just House, right?) look reasonable, without bringing out anything resembling new information, and giving them a chance to agree. There's nothing probing or informative from anything they discussed, just a whole lot of nodding at each other and going "oh yes, that's just fine", despite the things they're talking about not actually being fine. CupCake offers no insight or real analysis, and TW offers nothing that wasn't obvious from his first few posts.

Even if this exchange isn't literally in the form of "and then he told you that he was going to shoot, didn't he?", it's still serving the same function and creating the same result as a more overt version.

I have a feeling most judges wouldn't sustain that, which makes me think your initial "objection" was disingenuous; especially considering that, when asked to provide evidence for your claim, you just posted a paragraph about how you can't.

BTW, I did get information from my discussion with TW: I learned a bit about what kind of player he is, how he thinks about the game, and what type of mindset and motivations I should expect/be looking for when reading him. -Which are all very useful things.

You're agreeing that I'm obvious scum based on my RVS posts?

I

wouldn't have voted you for that one post, but I agree with the read she holds based on it.

This doesn't make any sense.

Her read is that I'm

obvious scum

for my RVS posts. Why wouldn't you vote on someone you read as such?

I agree with her

scum read

, not the

exact specifics

of how she reached it. I don't tend to put as much stock in RVS as mastin seems to; I like to have a little more info to work with. Her initial vote was for the RVS post, my vote is for the posts that followed. -I feel like this was pretty clear and you are deliberately "not understanding."

This is my first game out of newbie queue, and I'm still getting acquainted with its format and size.

Overwhelmed is not at all the feeling I'm getting from your posts.

What I'm addressing here is not the content of my posts, but my overall level of activity. The difficulty lies in being able to contribute alongside several experienced players with whom I have not played before. I hope to pick it up while the game progresses.

Okay. But, I don't have an issue with your

overall level of activity

. My vote on you is for the

content

of the posts you

did

make (or, more accurately, the complete lack of content).

When an especific playstyle is anti-town, it affects town as a whole. There's no need to put such emphasize on your specific experience, unless you have ulterior motives for doing so.

I can't speak for everyone else. I have

no idea

how his play affects

their

experiences. -As I've said, I've played with players who have a similar approach to TW, but I've also played with plenty of players who have no issues with that style. All I can express is what

I

am thinking and feeling. And unless all of these votes I'm picking up are for an election to some town representative position that I don't know about, I really don't think I have a right to speak on behalf of everyone else anyway.

Push on Bulba feels off. I don't see much scumminess from Bulba, much less what Hydreigon is showing

I agree.

i can lynch aronis too

Maybe. I'll need to see more first, though.

Hell, one of the most frustrating things about this game is that every time I think I find a scum tell, I see town doing the same thing later on.

It's maddening.

I'll help you out on this: there is no such thing as scum tells. Any action from one alignment is possible from the other in different circumstances. The trick to mafia is looking at "why?" -Why might a player do this as town; what town motivation is there? Why might they do it as scum; what scum motivation is there? Which makes more sense? And when in doubt, ask them "why." "Why" is the hardest question for scum, because they need not only to give an explanation that makes sense, but is consistent with the circumstances and evidence. If you ask "why" enough, scum start to slip. And it's far, far more reliable than looking down a generic checklist of scum tells (which any half-decent scum knows to avoid doing anyway).

I could personally go for Wreck, and farside atm. maybe domo. thoughts?

I disagree with this entire list, especially the first two.

Also, can someone explain what "WKing" means? -It's not an abbreviation I'm familiar with, and I don't see it in the wiki here.

[Pine]

White knighting. It confused me too, but I figured it out using context

[KittyCupCake]

White knighting. It confused me too, but I figured it out using context

So, jumping in to defend a townie, then. -Is it used to refer to times when the scum is doing it to earn favor with

that

townie, when the scum is doing it to hopefully earn some respect for being right when that player later dies and flips town, both equally, both but usually one more than the other, or some other situation?

[KittyCupCake]

Oh, to clarify something, pine, I agree with your not seeing scuminess from bulba. Though, I'm not sensing sinister motivation to that mini-wagon.

[Pine]

The probably sinister meaning is to draw heat off of you, actually

[Bulbazak]

BTW, I did get information from my discussion with TW: I learned a bit about what kind of player he is, how he thinks about the game, and what type of mindset and motivations I should expect/be looking for when reading him. -Which are all very useful things.

And what are your conclusions?

White knighting. It confused me too, but I figured it out using context

So, jumping in to defend a townie, then. -Is it used to refer to times when the scum is doing it to earn favor with

that

townie, when the scum is doing it to hopefully earn some respect for being right when that player later dies and flips town, both equally, both but usually one more than the other, or some other situation?

Both equally.

[KittyCupCake]

The probably sinister meaning is to draw heat off of you, actually

Huh?

And what are your conclusions?

I'd rather not discuss that much. -I have some ideas of what I should look for to discern his alignment, but spelling out in the thread what he should and shouldn't do to make me read him as town doesn't seem smart.

[KittyCupCake]

The probably sinister meaning is to draw heat off of you, actually

Huh?

Oh, never mind, I get what you're saying. If you're reading me as scum, that's a good observation. SH's vote on me could look like busing, since it was unexplained and they never said anything to push my wagon, but just kinda hopped on quietly. So, jumping over to a new wagon now, when mine is kinda stalling, would be a good time to do that.

[KittyCupCake]

Wait, you all aren't going to appreciate me analyzing my own wagon for potential scumbuddies are you?

So, I'll just preanswer those questions of "what are you doing, KCC? Why would you do that?"

-Pine's statement confused me and my immediate reaction was "what is he even saying here?" Then, I realized he might implying that I was scum, and that this bulbawagon was driven by scumbuddies to draw attention away from me. But then, I thought, "no, that doesn't make sense, they were both

just

voting me like a second ago." Then, I remember busing was a thing. Then, I considered if either of their votes on me would look like busing. And then, I realized what Pine was saying. So, I told him never mind and explained why.

Okay. Fun, fun, fun on mafiascum.

[KittyCupCake]

Okay, so, let me take a quick break from trying to get myself lynched and post a list of my current reads:

Strong Town

farside
mastin
TW

Light Town

bulba
pine
Shiny Hydra

Not Sure

DrTJE
DOMO
Double
Aronis

Scum

Pasch
Romi

[Bulbazak]

And what are your conclusions?

I'd rather not discuss that much. -I have some ideas of what I should look for to discern his alignment, but spelling out in the thread what he should and shouldn't do to make me read him as town doesn't seem smart.

I was asking for your read on him.

[KittyCupCake]

I was asking for your read on him.

Oh, I didn't realize that since it wasn't exactly was I was talking about in the part you quoted, but I guess you can just check that list up there now, so that all works out.

[DrTJEckleburg]

I'm not sure what I feel about the push on Bulba just yet; tomorrow I'm going to look at that more closely.

Right now, I feel like if any vote for Kitty is scum-motivated, it's Pasch. I don't like the switch from Total Wreck to Kitty, how pressure was maintained on both throughout. I also don't agree with the argument that both are scum; it feels very much like someone trying to get cred for lynching a scumpartner while setting up their next mislynch target in the process. Of course, this is all associative, and that doesn't work without flips, so it's on the backburner for now.

[Aronis]

VOTE: kittycupcake

She's not even trying to look town.

Explain why you think that.

I feel really confident in this read atm. I don't like the content, the motivation behind it is terrible, everything feels really non-genuine and forced. The only thing that might change my mind is the newb factor, but based on the way kitty has played, I'm not really willing to take that route. Like I'm 95% sure about this atm.

[Aronis]

Wisdom, one of these days you'll learn how to actually scumhunt. Why is Kitty scum? Why is everyone on her wagon town? Because that's what you're suggesting. You have taken zero interest in figuring out her or my alignment. If you thought my stance was BS, then you should have asked me how I came to my reads on everyone. I've been very clear on my Kitty, TW, and Pasch reads. Less so on my Aronis and Jeckel reads, mostly because they are developing. Aronis's first and only post is opportunistic as crap and exactly what I'd expect from scum him. Jeckel might be town, but his first post, which jumped on the emerging Kitty wagon, felt very mechanical. The only legit vote I've seen is Farside, and that looks to be largely personal. So again, what's the Kitty case?

I was the second person on the kitty wagon.

What does that have to do with your vote being opportunistic?

If I'm being opportunistic and hopping on the wagon I believe most likely to get a lynch, the wagon that has only one vote is probably not where I'm headed.

[Aronis]

Don't have much time; might not read everything.

VOTE: kittycupcake
She's not even trying to look town.

Explain why you think that.

Explain why you're questioning someone supporting your push in that way.

Tell me after you read my last thoughts on the argument if you agree or disagree and why.

I didn't but I can tell you that I disagree anyway.

mastin is going to have to explain this because right now it looks a lot to me like she's bullshitting scumreads, and we all know which alignment that points to.

I have ZERO need to BS as scum. (I only BS as town. )

Anyway, mastin just continues to call him scum without explaining, before she finally talks directly to rom, where she refuses to expand on her scum read.

I said no such thing. I said I didn't feel like explaining.

Explain why you think the mafia would never vote each other.

[Shiny Hydreigon]

can I ask that bulba is not given easy townreads? you guys dont know him and he will just skate by

R~

[Shiny Hydreigon]

aronis is still scum

R~

[Bulbazak]

Actually, that was pretty town posting from Aronis. He's much more obvious as scum.

[Shiny Hydreigon]

also insert jackleberg to my townreads

R~

[Shiny Hydreigon]

i dont know how to interpret kitty's weird posting regarding who her buddy is. my immediate thought was "she is overexplaining because she felt she did something scummy and is worrying about how it looks" but then i dont know if scum would handle this that way and if they would even get in this discussion. im more unsure about her now in general.

R~

[Total Wreck]

I can see town motive behind Kitty wanting me to be more cooperative, and nitpicking her methodology is far scummier than anything she said, imho.

[Paschendale]

I really don't like this Kitty wagon.

Got a better one in mind?

@house or he just thought youre both town. just as possible

bulba pls hang

R~

I'm not seeing it. Disagreeing with you doesn't make someone scum. Now, if you have a point to make or a case on Bulba, please share it. Otherwise, if you're not going to do something constructive, just shut up and sheep the players who are.

Plus combined with Rom's posting just being overall forced and not blending in naturally.

Please explain exactly what you mean by "forced". It just sounds like a vague buzzword the way you're using it.

I'm not sure what I feel about the push on Bulba just yet; tomorrow I'm going to look at that more closely.

Right now, I feel like if any vote for Kitty is scum-motivated, it's Pasch. I don't like the switch from Total Wreck to Kitty, how pressure was maintained on both throughout. I also don't agree with the argument that both are scum; it feels very much like someone trying to get cred for lynching a scumpartner while setting up their next mislynch target in the process. Of course, this is all associative, and that doesn't work without flips, so it's on the backburner for now.

My suspicions of TW and Kitty are independent of each other. Kitty could just as easily have been buddying up with town TW as with a TW scumpartner. That she is trying to create such obvious collusion with him makes her look disingenuous. My scumread on TW does not come from his exchange with Kitty. Kitty flipping scum doesn't really alter the odds of TW doing the same, though the reverse is not true. TW scum definitely implicates Kitty scum. I switched my vote because my suspicion of Kitty is stronger than TW, and I think she's more likely scum than he. But I didn't suddenly forget that I suspect TW. Of course I'm going to keep pressure on more than one scumread at once. Wouldn't you?

[Shiny Hydreigon]

cases are for scum

R~

[Wisdom]

note; when bulba flips scum, look at all those attempts to discredit my push on him

R~