Open 581: Making Friends and Enemies! (Game over)

[Whatisswag]

I've wanted to vote Elle to L-1, and I still don't think it's a bad idea, but her reads were pretty close to mine scum wise. Only difference is I'm town reading LR. Elle clearly isn't right now. Which makes me concerned too that maybe my read is wrong. That coupled with the fact that her wagon has 2 of my other scum reads on it is keeping me from voting.

Luckily we still have 10 days I think to figure something out.

Whatisswag, what is your reason for wanting Awesome lynched? Green Crayons pointed out that you've only brought him up 1 time, and I'm about to go double check that. I'd still like to know if you have a new reason or not for that?

haha, no. I just dont FEEL like elle is the right choice. and somehow I am focusing on those with who lurk a bit. If awesome/dave is lynched, I would be quite happy. For others, I would be like "okay..."

[Whatisswag]

Cheet is town. Green Crayons is town.

On an unrelated note, awesome has been not really wanting to jump a wagon (like me, coincidentally. I treat this as scummy even though I do it.).

[Whatisswag]

Only if I was a gladiator, I would challenge people to death cause it is getting quite boring here. I find that I actually like people to scum read me for the lolz.

[Green Crayons]

@elle:

I was only interested in your comments about my observations of your play. Thanks for the extra work, though.

C.

elle:

I'll admit that I didn't personally have a put-into-words suspicion about elle when reading her posts; it was all a general feeling of "this doesn't sound right." (Contrast this with my suspicions about dave, where Grib and Kaboose simply vocalized my already-formed suspicions.) Of the players who vocalized particular suspicions about elle, I think that (1) Cheetory's "playing it safe" suspicion (originally stated in Post 246), and (2) Kaboose's problem with elle's inquiry to dave about elle's play (Post 323 and Post 339) are the most persuasive.

Regarding this second suspicion, I don't think this is an isolated incident. I noticed that she had previously asked Corpses about her play in a similar manner (Post 118 and Post 235). Well, maybe not a similar manner, but it certainly seems to come from the same mindset: "let me figure out what this player thinks about me and try to turn it to town."

C.

I mean, I could have asked if you thought part

(1)

about 'playing it safe' actually still applied, but really it would just be WIFOM as Cheetory pointing it out could have made me switch tactic as

most

of my play that definitely was not 'safe' came after the fact.

And as for

(2)

, what's there to say? I address the point in 323 in my 332 and I address what I think of 339 in my 343. As for 118 and 235, I address them personally to you in 162 and 236, respectively.

The answers are already there and were already there prior to your post. To me, it's basically saying that despite the last fact, you're just not believing my explanations and you find me suspicious of it regardless.

Yeah, I find your play suspicious and I'm looking for town justification for those suspicious actions. I figure you'd be the best source for such an explanation. Regarding your repeated inquiry to other players to evaluate your play, I have found your explanations lacking. As you're not giving me anything new to work with, I'll stick with what's already out there.

-----

A.

elle:

elle got real defensive, real quick - and used misrepresentation the process (see Post 370 and Post 375 w/r/t a misrep of Ranger's suspicions on Fairies; see Post 378 w/r/t a misrep of Ranger's vote count/deadline conversation). elle also immediate attacks her attacker on an unexceptional issue - town reads - in Post 371 and Post 374, which gets dragged out for several more posts.

A.

I think the playout of elle vs ranger is already pretty clear in thread - I think it's also pretty clear that I don't think her not wanting to provide her townreads while saying she has them only to ultimately not have them is not an 'unexceptional issue'.

1. I just reread Pages 15 and 16. I don't see anything in there that justifies your misrepresentations and defensiveness with any town explanation. And, in fact, there are scum justifications for your play (e.g., "taunt<ing>" the person who suspects you into voting you, per Post 377). Once again, I was just hoping you had something more than what was already out there.

2. Failing to give justifications for townreads is not a big deal because town reads are null except in limited circumstances.

[Green Crayons]

@Ranger:

I'm assuming you're reading my posts, so you could at least respond to them.

3.

@Ranger:

My biggest issue with Kaboose is that his recent wall reeks of confirmation bias. He is acting like he KNOWS Elle is scum.

He is quick to critisize people for considering that Elle may be town. He is quick to applaud and encourage Elle scumreads.

He thinks Elle will get lynched today and is setting up for tomorrow. Who can he attack next as being partners with Elle?

Who showed that slight hesitation that he can exploit to chain a mislynch following today's bus? Those thoughts seem to be pre-dominant in Kaboose's mind. The wall he wrote is so unnatural, it is downright ridiculous. I have never seen a townie post with the level of bias and confidence that he has posted.

The bolded portions of your Kaboose suspicions describe your own play pretty spot on. Thoughts?

[Green Crayons]

@Riddle:

Why do I need to defend myself and argue her scumread on me? You're addressing me as if it's urgent I do so when I'm not a major wagon today.Focusing all of my time into defending people's scumreads of me is futile when actual scumhunting can be done. Like I said, no motive for me to defend someone's case on me. If you think that's a scum tactic for me to "avoid" that then go nuts and vote me.

Still defensive, but you're solid, Riddle.

Come back and play.

[Green Crayons]

@elle:

@ILF, davesaz and GC

, what's your read on Cheetory?

Null, lean town.

[Green Crayons]

@elle:

I keep remembering things that popped into mind last night, so excuse the multiple posts directed at you.

What do you make of people connecting you and LR?

I think the only one that makes any sense is GC's: That if I were to flip scum, you should be looking at LR as my partner, given my MO of bussing.

The association with Kaboose is kind of laughable.

But since I'm going to flip town, I'm pretty sure all the other associations will speak for themselves - and clear a lot of people in the process.

Will you please expand on the bolded a bit more? Who is going to be cleared if you flip town? How?

[Kaboose]

554

I brought the same thing up and she never responded to me either.

[Lone Ranger]

@Ranger:

I'm assuming you're reading my posts, so you could at least respond to them.

3.

@Ranger:

My biggest issue with Kaboose is that his recent wall reeks of confirmation bias. He is acting like he KNOWS Elle is scum.

He is quick to critisize people for considering that Elle may be town. He is quick to applaud and encourage Elle scumreads.

He thinks Elle will get lynched today and is setting up for tomorrow. Who can he attack next as being partners with Elle?

Who showed that slight hesitation that he can exploit to chain a mislynch following today's bus? Those thoughts seem to be pre-dominant in Kaboose's mind. The wall he wrote is so unnatural, it is downright ridiculous. I have never seen a townie post with the level of bias and confidence that he has posted.

The bolded portions of your Kaboose suspicions describe your own play pretty spot on. Thoughts?

No they don't. First bolded part refers to Kaboose so exclusively focussing on Elle to the point where the only criticism he has for me is that I considered moving off of Elle. To the point where he agreed with every single thing I said against Elle.

There's a difference between tunneling (which is null) and betraying an informed perspective (which is scummy). Having confidence in a read is not the same as betraying that you know someone is scum. I think you know this.

Second bolded part - I only started tying Kaboose to Elle after Kaboose's latest post

because

of Kaboose's latest post. I explained why and gave me reasoning. Saying that I'm doing the same thing he is is meaningless.

[Green Crayons]

There's a difference between tunneling and an informed perspective, yes.

Citing that fact as a truism doesn't really address the situation here. Particularly when people have criticized your tunnel of elle as a potential manifestation of your informed perspective. (There's no one, true Scotsman of how an informed perspective plays out.)

You've set up both awesome ("AwesomeUsername is scum. I don't know if he is scum with or without Elle yet. But he is scum. Thinking of switching there." in Post 419) and Kaboose ("A glance through Kaboose's ISO confirms my suspicions that Kaboose is scum, probably with Elle." Post 472) as being potential elle-scum buddies.


Thanks for your response.

[Whatisswag]

Just saying why I think Cheet is town.

Sup. I am here to dramatically flop around as a replacement.

Taking middle ground gives null.

The way I scum hunt is relating the person I see to myself (another way of saying: I dont scum hunt by logic, I scum hunt by gut).

Something about the way that you're adding together what you see as scumtells and towntells to get nullreads while also saying that you scumhunt using gut feels off. I think it's that using generic towntells/scumtells and adding them together feels anything but gutbased. I might be getting caught up in semantics, so please try to elaborate on this so I can avoid being an idiot and getting caught up in a dumb argument about nothing here.

@Riddleton

, I did a lazy metadive on Swag. In his last scumgame he used a lot of setup speculation/theorycrafting early on and in his last towngame he didn't. Does that influence how strongly you're townreading his early posts this game considering how much of it is theorycrafting-ish?

I don't want to vote for any of them. The points raised against elle and Kaboose are meh.

What do you think of the points on whatisswag? I feel like you've danced around talking about him assuming I didn't just miss something in my readback.

@Green

, earlier on why were you voting Riddle over Grib, Corpses or elle? What were you hoping to get out of that single line of questioning that made him worth voting for? Also, what do you make of awesome's simultaneous townread/inability to read you and the players that are ramping up pressure on him for it?

So it looks like Corpses is taking action to look like he's advocating for a protown strategy, when really he's just advocating for basic game play.

Not really seeing why this is clearly scum-motivated and not just a bad play on Corpse's part.

This post is ok.

I guess more importantly, why did Hannibal not get a criticism in any of your posts?

I like this line of questioning more than the role-trap angle people are pushing on Corpses. Why isn't this a part of your reasoning in your vote for Corpse, Crayon?

Ok.

Do you not think people should come under pressure for bad play? How do you expect the game to ever advance? Even if it is just bad play, it was a play that could hurt our most powerful win condition.

The point isn't whether bad play should be questioned. The point is that bad play=/=scummy play. I don't see why Corpse would rolefish in such an obvious way if his intent was solely to get masonslips. If anything, I would think that if he is scum, that he was merely trying to seem like he was acting protown trying to pitch ideas on what to be doing right now. Either way, no matter what his alignment is I still think it was just bad play on his part.

Good idea. Town idea.

I can follow the angle of trying to pressure Corpse into answering various questions on him, I can't follow the angle of lynching him solely on the merit of a sketchy accusation of him rolefishing that feels like a stretch.

My single question to him wasn't sustaining anything, as it was a bad question and I wasn't expecting anything from it.

Why not vote someone who you said was pinging you as slightly scummy?

I don't know if Corpses's mason talk is "clearly" scum motivated, but I think it's more likely to come from scum trying to get townie points when discussing game setup.

Makes more sense to me now that I've more fully absorbed your train of thought in #189. Though, why were you okay with sheeping Kaboose's reasoning before though if you later disagreed with it?

Remind me what those points are?

I kind of got a little bit jumbled with the timeline of what was going on because I got a little too focused on Swag during my readthrough, so I guess a better question is why did you comment on elle/Kaboose and not on Riddleton who had three votes at the time in the quote I posted before?

@Grib

, when did you have a townread on Riddle and why?

Because I forgot I caught Corpse's failure to address Hannibal when I made my vote post.

Where does this reasoning rank in comparison to the rest of your reasons for voting for Corpse?

Ok.

@Riddleton

, I did a lazy metadive on Swag. In his last scumgame he used a lot of setup speculation/theorycrafting early on and in his last towngame he didn't. Does that influence how strongly you're townreading his early posts this game considering how much of it is theorycrafting-ish?

Don't you ignore me you jerk.

Ok.

I don't know to who you are referring that was pinging me as slightly scummy?

Poorly phrased on my part. Why did you keep your vote on Riddle while saying you were slightly scumreading other people? Too lazy to pull up quotes right now but I know you said other scumreads in between your votechange.

even more so when they accuse me of lying when I'm not

I mean, you know the game you're playing right? Occasionally people are going to accuse you of lying because, dare I say, you may in fact be lying if you're mafia.
Also, try to keep things civil please. Not going to townread anger because I've seen plenty of people abuse that towntell as scum [myself included].

Good.

Scum also like to bring up negative association logic early to show town they're not connected to their partners.

Who do you think Swag would be trying to distance himself from in this case?

Have you caught up to the whole game? How did you choose the (roughly 6) people you've interacted with or focused on so far?

I kind of want to reread again because my brain went kind of numb trying to read a lot of the poem interactions around page 4-5 or something, but I otherwise feel relatively comfortable saying I'm caught up. I chose recent interactions because I felt those people would be most likely to be here and I wanted direct interactions to try and sort people and I chose things that stood out to me as weird.

@Swag

, what separates SJAC and davesaz in terms of content posted thus far? Also, what're your thoughts on elle?

VOTE: elle
Her vote in #163 feels reactionary and the followup ten minutes later strikes me as trying to throw additional reasoning to seem proactive. Also feel like she's saying a decent amount without leaving much of an impression. Stances seem pretty safe overall. Have some other weak reasons for suspecting her, but don't really know if they make sense and want to mull them over atm.

This is nice. He also keeps his scum reads and dont say them until he is absolutely sure, which is what I do.




Argh this is tiring, just going to skip some posts by cheet which has not much interest.

@Elle, I had a line of questioning for you, but I feel like the response wouldn't be informative.
Basically, it seemed to me like:

What changed between then and now?

My read, obviously.

Was implying that you were scumreading him rather than trying to sort him, but the followup in response to me seemed more geared towards you saying that you were trying to sort him again. Realized on reflection that asking you about it wouldn't really yield anything productive because "oh I was just saying that I wasn't townreading him and am now nullreading him" was likely to be your response regardless of what your alignment is.

Let's go somewhere else from here. What do you make of Kaboose's softpush on you?

it is town to put someone you think is scummy at the focus (well, I just dont put people into focus as scum). So this is town too.

The next few posts are the same focus on elle, so I will skip them.

As for my read on Kaboose, I'm leaning town on him at the moment because he seems to have this.. aura of confidence about pushing people and isn't really afraid at all to defend it. Could be reading too much into what may be playstyle, but he also doesn't strike me as scummy as a whole and hasn't said anything that I've found particularly suspect.

And he remember others too.

Cheetory

, I meta'd Swag myself and I disagree with your conclusions on his playstyle. I'll post more later on, I'm eating now

O riddle why do you hide from me so?

Who's alt are you, Lone Ranger?

Why doth thou ask questions to which LR will likely not answer?

Town. once he finishes building his case, he move on to his second scum read, this guy has clear objectives in mind.

LR's switch to Kaboose is.. interesting. I want to think that it's too bold for her to possibly be jumping around like this as scum unless she's trying to do something very intentionally. It would be a lot easier to sit on her elle vote and push the wagon as scum, so unless she's scummates with someone involved here, I want to say she's probably town? I kind of think her weirdness is probably town weirdness anyways.

This has nothing to do with Cheet. perhaps LR wanted to appear less scummy when a Vote Count Analysis is done.

Boop.

Leantown

:
Grib
Lone Ranger
Kaboose
Swag

Null

:
Green Crayons
ILF
NJAC
Dave
Riddle

Leanscum

:
Corpses
awesome
elle

Bitchassbitch

:
Cheetory6

It's in order too.

This is ok.

Another one that gives me odd feels is his 502, where he mentions Riddle's absence in a positive light, corpses absence in a negative light, and then doesn't at all mention davesaz's absence. But I can't really pinpoint exactly what bothers me about it, just that it feels like selectively calling people out differently for doing the same thing, if that makes sense.

Corpse left in the middle of being the main wagon and it annoyed me that he didn't replace because it could have stalled the game really hard. If he's town, that was a shitty thing to do. If he's scum, then that's an annoying derail.
I've played with Riddle before and I have no idea where he stands on things right now. I consider myself closer to him than I do to dave or Math/whoever his other head is.
Have never played with dave before and I relatively know where he stands right now.
Hence differences in how I'm responding to each of them not being here.

Your GC read feels similarly to my Cheetory read, insofar as it's hard to point out specifics. With a lot of the things he posts, I get the feeling that they're just set up as traps - like his 399 to you or the way he phrases his 518 to me.

I used to just hardpush people when I wanted reads. I'm relatively new to mafiascum and have only recently gotten into the idea of sorting people. If my questioning is forceful, it's because I'm leaning scum on someone. Was leaning scum on LR when I started questioning her. I strongly think you're scum right now and I don't see why you would be coming from where you are right now from a townPOV. I'd love to hear why I'm wrong on this, but nothing you've hinted at so far in your last few responses to me feels like it's coming from anywhere legitimate.

Are you going to actually question me now or are you just going to pitch something else to everyone else in the game again?

This is consistent with his reads

Wow, I have been sniped 8 times.

[Whatisswag]

There's a difference between tunneling and an informed perspective, yes.

Citing that fact as a truism doesn't really address the situation here. Particularly when people have criticized your tunnel of elle as a potential manifestation of your informed perspective. (There's no one, true Scotsman of how an informed perspective plays out.)

You've set up both awesome ("AwesomeUsername is scum. I don't know if he is scum with or without Elle yet. But he is scum. Thinking of switching there." in Post 419) and Kaboose ("A glance through Kaboose's ISO confirms my suspicions that Kaboose is scum, probably with Elle." Post 472) as being potential elle-scum buddies.


Thanks for your response.

Yeah. Good job noticing. Ok LR just got boosted a few levels above other people on my reads list.

[Whatisswag]

Town reads list. And I notice GC has been focusing a lot on elle recently.

[Riddleton]

I will get back into this game tonight, I promise.

[Kaboose]

520 - Swag if you could take a minute, let's have a conversation.

So I saw in posts:
462
477
503
551
Are the only times I see you mention awesome.

In 462 you place a vote on him and announce it won't go anywhere else.

In 477 you state that he probably won't be lynched today.

Then in 503 you suggest we lynch him.

Finally in 551 you apparently explain he's scummy for doing something you do as well.

You didn't really answer me about Awesome in 550 while responding to the post of mine that I asked about it. So could you please help me understand why you want someone lynched but you're not trying to convince anyone to do it?

What was the "scum team analysis" you mentioned in 462?

Also since you admit he's unlikely to be lynched, would you be okay compromising on it or is he really the only person you're going to vote on D1?

[elleheathen]

elle, instead of narrowing your lynchpool for silly reasons, why don't you vote and scumhunt?

Tell me whom you'd like dead and why.

The fact that I don't have a vote up atm should speak for itself.

Maybe he's reading me from my posting to others but again,

ughhh

.

The majority of why he's leaning scum there is because of what I see as him not even

trying

to read me. So, '

If you're town

, you should at least

try

to read me better' because if he's not, I can see why he's not trying to read me at all.

The inside quote was somewhat on target. I do read people by their interactions with others, more than by interacting with them myself. My RL personality is like that too. In technical/leadership situations I drive things in the direction I want them to go in, but in social situations I tend to listen 3-4x as much as I talk. Consequently, at times it's a real challenge to meet the minimum posting level for games.

I'm often told that this kind of revelation is not terribly useful here because it's self meta.

Eh, I don't think that just because it's self-meta, meta or otherwise necessarily means that it doesn't have merit. I think it's just something that's up to the reader on whether to believe it or not.

[elleheathen]

@elle:

I keep remembering things that popped into mind last night, so excuse the multiple posts directed at you.

What do you make of people connecting you and LR?

I think the only one that makes any sense is GC's: That if I were to flip scum, you should be looking at LR as my partner, given my MO of bussing.

The association with Kaboose is kind of laughable.

But since I'm going to flip town, I'm pretty sure all the other associations will speak for themselves - and clear a lot of people in the process.

Will you please expand on the bolded a bit more? Who is going to be cleared if you flip town? How?

In case you missed this:

@elle:

What do you make of people connecting you and LR?

I think the only one that makes any sense is GC's: That if I were to flip scum, you should be looking at LR as my partner, given my MO of bussing.

The association with Kaboose is kind of laughable.

But since I'm going to flip town, I'm pretty sure all the other associations will speak for themselves - and clear a lot of people in the process.

So, by your argument, because you are going to flip town, Ranger is going to look less suspicious and be cleared?

Less suspicious, no.

Cleared of the association

, yes.

Bolded.

[elleheathen]

Town reads list. And I notice GC has been focusing a lot on elle recently.

...
Just GC?
lol

[NJAC]

Back to the catchup...

[Green Crayons]

@elle:

I keep remembering things that popped into mind last night, so excuse the multiple posts directed at you.

What do you make of people connecting you and LR?

I think the only one that makes any sense is GC's: That if I were to flip scum, you should be looking at LR as my partner, given my MO of bussing.

The association with Kaboose is kind of laughable.

But since I'm going to flip town, I'm pretty sure all the other associations will speak for themselves - and clear a lot of people in the process.

Will you please expand on the bolded a bit more? Who is going to be cleared if you flip town? How?

In case you missed this:

@elle:

What do you make of people connecting you and LR?

I think the only one that makes any sense is GC's: That if I were to flip scum, you should be looking at LR as my partner, given my MO of bussing.

The association with Kaboose is kind of laughable.

But since I'm going to flip town, I'm pretty sure all the other associations will speak for themselves - and clear a lot of people in the process.

So, by your argument, because you are going to flip town, Ranger is going to look less suspicious and be cleared?

Less suspicious, no.

Cleared of the association

, yes.

Bolded.

That's nice.

It doesn't answer my question.

Who is going to be cleared if you flip town? How?

[elleheathen]

@elle:

I keep remembering things that popped into mind last night, so excuse the multiple posts directed at you.

What do you make of people connecting you and LR?

I think the only one that makes any sense is GC's: That if I were to flip scum, you should be looking at LR as my partner, given my MO of bussing.

The association with Kaboose is kind of laughable.

But since I'm going to flip town, I'm pretty sure all the other associations will speak for themselves - and clear a lot of people in the process.

Will you please expand on the bolded a bit more? Who is going to be cleared if you flip town? How?

In case you missed this:

@elle:

What do you make of people connecting you and LR?

I think the only one that makes any sense is GC's: That if I were to flip scum, you should be looking at LR as my partner, given my MO of bussing.

The association with Kaboose is kind of laughable.

But since I'm going to flip town, I'm pretty sure all the other associations will speak for themselves - and clear a lot of people in the process.

So, by your argument, because you are going to flip town, Ranger is going to look less suspicious and be cleared?

Less suspicious, no.

Cleared of the association

, yes.

Bolded.

That's nice.

It doesn't answer my question.

Who is going to be cleared if you flip town? How?

The people being associated with me as scum will be cleared of that association when I flip town.

How? Well... when you use associative tells to try to connect people together as scum pre-flips, it kind of throws it out the window when one of those people flips town.

[Lone Ranger]

There's a difference between tunneling and an informed perspective, yes.

Citing that fact as a truism doesn't really address the situation here. Particularly when people have criticized your tunnel of elle as a potential manifestation of your informed perspective. (There's no one, true Scotsman of how an informed perspective plays out.)

You've set up both awesome ("AwesomeUsername is scum. I don't know if he is scum with or without Elle yet. But he is scum. Thinking of switching there." in Post 419) and Kaboose ("A glance through Kaboose's ISO confirms my suspicions that Kaboose is scum, probably with Elle." Post 472) as being potential elle-scum buddies.


Thanks for your response.

Yeah. Good job noticing. Ok LR just got boosted a few levels above other people on my reads list.

[Green Crayons]

The people being associated with me as scum will be cleared of that association when I flip town.

How? Well... when you use associative tells to try to connect people together as scum pre-flips, it kind of throws it out the window when one of those people flips town.

Mhm. There appears to be a problem with our back and forth. I don't know if it's simply our inability to communicate clearly, or you purposefully muddling things up.


To make sure I now understand you, when you said "But since I'm going to flip town, I'm pretty sure all the other associations will speak for themselves -

and clear a lot of people in the process

." you meant:

(1) the "a lot" of people who were going to be cleared were awesome, Kaboose, and Ranger; and

(2) they would not be "cleared" in the sense that they would be clear from suspicion, they would simply be cleared from being tied to elle-scum because elle-scum would not actual exist in this game.

[Green Crayons]

I guess I see how you were tying "associations" with folks being "cleared," but hot damn that's a confusing way to phrase it. I thought you were saying that your flip would clear people from suspicion more generally in some sort of way, not necessarily clear away only those lines of suspicion that were tying them to elle-scum.