Mini 1637- Pokemon Generation I uPick (Game Over)

[TierShift]

Also, I'm going to stop talking about myself. Bert, disregard my questions. Please give me your insight on boon or seo scum.

[Bert]

Hm I looked and tier responded to first recent batch of boon observations

Except mebbe this one

I think early crossbus for distancing and afterwards buddy preservation is a perfectly viable scum strategy. I very often see scum vote their buddy and the direct their attention elsewhere.

you and I have very different ideas of how to play scum. I would never attempt to soft distance without following through with it later, because you risk being called out for being inconsistent and it looks really conspicuous if your partner ends up flipping at some point. if I was bussing here, I'd continue to rail the fuck out of him to get the most town cred possible from it.

I tried rereading again and in 1437 he calls vettrock's 1274 town, but when he initially voted vettrock 1283 he claimed he didn't like vettrock's Flames push, which 1274 was the continuation of. -.-

I also don't particularly get why he tried to vote you/me after his self vote instead of moving back onto vettrock. looking at it from this POV, it makes more sense.

I thought some other things didn't make sense as trying to save a partner. like, look at this

Updated Read List:

Boonskiies
Seohyun
Flames
Formerfish
Bert
Tiershift
Vettrock
Pieguyn

VOTE: Pie

his idea of "buddy protection" here would be to vote me who was never getting lynched that day, while putting vettrock as his backup scumread. the end result of this is it does absolutely nothing to actually derail the lynch off vettrock.

I also think on a general level he could have done a _lot_ more to derail the lynch off vettrock if that's what he was actually going for. there was basically no actual push on any other target besides a few quotes related to me (1592, 1593), the former of which I actually thought was genuine bc I could see what he was picking up on (deliberately going against the general flow of reads is a relatively easy way to get town cred as scum and smth I abused the fuck out of in the game where we were scum together) and how he linked it to my scum game.

/shrug

People don't just forget about their biggest scumread. Vettrock did for a moment. Then he backpedalled and threw it in again. Buddyxbuddy interaction.

the problem I have with this is it's not indicative of scum x scum interaction, it's just indicative of vettrock fabricating reads. I first thought it was indicative of what I mentioned before - vettrock-scum opportunistically voting between Boon/Flames depending on which looked more likely to go through.

Pie, I immediately thought 1846 was not genuine. It felt as a snap-response, as though he was really mad I compared his actions to scum-motivated actions. That doesn't line up with him agreeing to my point later on and just making a throwaway gesture 'yeah, of course lol why is it important'.

His first response is to discredit me because he's scared.

I'm going to straight up admit I can't fucking read Boon's play at all. the end result of this is I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I have no idea if it's actually scummy or not or why he wouldn't do this as town. /shrug

[pieguyn]

look

the fact that I'm aggressive about pushing my reads does not mean I'm 100% convinced you're scum. like, seriously, please actually read what I said:

I'm still waiting for your response to my post a while back re: Boon read - if you even so much as read the post, you'd see that I actually found some things that I'm skeptical of about his play.

I basically just said as much. I'm open to other possibilities, just _I'm not going to go clearing you based on your role_, whether you like it or not. it is a theoretically incorrect play. and I'm trying to see how Boon's play makes sense as scum, and _I can see how some parts of it do_. I'm just not 100% sold on it _yet_ and continue to think _at this point_ you being scum makes more sense than Boon being scum.

if you're town, I really don't get where your attitude here is coming from, unless you're misinterpreting my posts. I hope this helps clears it up.

p-edit: @TS

[pieguyn]

and yeah, Bert's post is what I'm talking about

my responses in that post were genuine. I'm not calling you scum there, that is me _trying to understand what your viewpoint is_ and seeing if it makes sense.

[pieguyn]

alternatively, if you want to discuss the Seohyun read, we seem to agree on her being town.

[TierShift]

I'm not sure on seo town. If I were, this day'd be over.

And no, pie. The thing that you are doing that drives me nuts is saying that trying to confirm yourself through concensus is scummy and that it sets me up for discrediting you. The thing you're also doing is that when I comment on that, you go "OH MY GOD THIS IS 100% SCUM TACTICS". That is what's bothering me about you.

[TierShift]

great, I'm going through with this. ugh.

I think early crossbus for distancing and afterwards buddy preservation is a perfectly viable scum strategy. I very often see scum vote their buddy and the direct their attention elsewhere.

you and I have very different ideas of how to play scum. I would never attempt to soft distance without following through with it later, because you risk being called out for being inconsistent and it looks really conspicuous if your partner ends up flipping at some point. if I was bussing here, I'd continue to rail the fuck out of him to get the most town cred possible from it.

Right, are you boon? Not all scum play alike. What I described is a common scum strategy, whether you do it or not.

I tried rereading again and in 1437 he calls vettrock's 1274 town, but when he initially voted vettrock 1283 he claimed he didn't like vettrock's Flames push, which 1274 was the continuation of. -.-

I didn't even see that. That's inconsistent as fuck.

I also don't particularly get why he tried to vote you/me after his self vote instead of moving back onto vettrock. looking at it from this POV, it makes more sense.

I thought some other things didn't make sense as trying to save a partner. like, look at this

Updated Read List:

Boonskiies
Seohyun
Flames
Formerfish
Bert
Tiershift
Vettrock
Pieguyn

VOTE: Pie

his idea of "buddy protection" here would be to vote me who was never getting lynched that day, while putting vettrock as his backup scumread. the end result of this is it does absolutely nothing to actually derail the lynch off vettrock.

I also think on a general level he could have done a _lot_ more to derail the lynch off vettrock if that's what he was actually going for. there was basically no actual push on any other target besides a few quotes related to me (1592, 1593), the former of which I actually thought was genuine bc I could see what he was picking up on (deliberately going against the general flow of reads is a relatively easy way to get town cred as scum and smth I abused the fuck out of in the game where we were scum together) and how he linked it to my scum game.

/shrug

Look at the time of day. Flames was at L-1 and vettrock had zero votes. He had no reason to go for buddy protection here, he just didn't go for the bus. He went for the massive towncred instead of seeing flames flip town and opposing the lynch. That's something that would make sense as a scum narrative. I'm not saying it's incriminating, keep that in mind.

People don't just forget about their biggest scumread. Vettrock did for a moment. Then he backpedalled and threw it in again. Buddyxbuddy interaction.

the problem I have with this is it's not indicative of scum x scum interaction, it's just indicative of vettrock fabricating reads. I first thought it was indicative of what I mentioned before - vettrock-scum opportunistically voting between Boon/Flames depending on which looked more likely to go through.

Vettrock's completely inconsistent on his boon read, as nothing changed about boon since his selfvote, but vettrock's read on him did. That's more likely to stem from scumxscum than scumxtown.

Pie, I immediately thought 1846 was not genuine. It felt as a snap-response, as though he was really mad I compared his actions to scum-motivated actions. That doesn't line up with him agreeing to my point later on and just making a throwaway gesture 'yeah, of course lol why is it important'.

His first response is to discredit me because he's scared.

I'm going to straight up admit I can't fucking read Boon's play at all. the end result of this is I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I have no idea if it's actually scummy or not or why he wouldn't do this as town. /shrug

you don't think 1846 was an overreaction?

[TierShift]

two questions for seo:
why did you target me-->pie last night?
During night 2, didn't you think your ability was psychic? Why didn't you use that again?

[pieguyn]

And no, pie. The thing that you are doing that drives me nuts is saying that trying to confirm yourself through concensus is scummy and that it sets me up for discrediting you. The thing you're also doing is that when I comment on that, you go "OH MY GOD THIS IS 100% SCUM TACTICS". That is what's bothering me about you.

I'm saying it's scummy because it _is_. and I explained the reasoning why already, which you didn't address - the way you went about it comes more from a scum attempting to muddy the waters mindset than town who actually thinks there's a compelling reason for them being confirmed.

I'm saying it sets you up to discredit me because it _does_. and again I explained why and rather than addressing it you started imploding over it - by preemptively telling me not to respond to it because "I had already said it was scummy", it serves to make me look worse if I _do_ respond to it.

I do not see town motivation in your approach here. what I'm seeing is scum trying to falsely get themselves cleared, and then being overdefensive when they get called on it. now, obviously, I am considering the possibility this is playstyle, hence being somewhat willing to consider the possibility I am wrong here, but it's fucking impossible to tell when you don't actually explain why my points for you being scum are wrong and instead blow up over it. (this is not me accusing you of being scum again, it's me attempting to elaborate more on where my previous pushes have been coming from.)

p-edit: haven't read the above yet, reading it now

[TierShift]

I'm saying it's scummy because it _is_. and I explained the reasoning why already, which you didn't address - the way you went about it comes more from a scum attempting to muddy the waters mindset than town who actually thinks there's a compelling reason for them being confirmed.

I'm saying it sets you up to discredit me because it _does_. and again I explained why and rather than addressing it you started imploding over it - by preemptively telling me not to respond to it because "I had already said it was scummy", it serves to make me look worse if I _do_ respond to it.

I do not see town motivation in your approach here. what I'm seeing is scum trying to falsely get themselves cleared, and then being overdefensive when they get called on it. now, obviously, I am considering the possibility this is playstyle, hence being somewhat willing to consider the possibility I am wrong here, but it's fucking impossible to tell when you don't actually explain why my points for you being scum are wrong and instead blow up over it. (this is not me accusing you of being scum again, it's me attempting to elaborate more on where my previous pushes have been coming from.)

p-edit: haven't read the above yet, reading it now

Can't respond to shit if I can't see shit
We'll talk postgame

[pieguyn]

you don't think 1846 was an overreaction?

not really

it's not how I would have reacted, but I don't have a compelling reason to think he wouldn't react in that way as town.

Vettrock's completely inconsistent on his boon read, as nothing changed about boon since his selfvote, but vettrock's read on him did. That's more likely to stem from scumxscum than scumxtown.

the thing with this is, if you look through vettrock's posts, he wasn't really "forgetting" about his Boon read. it was more a case of disliking _both_ Boon and Flames and supporting the Flames wagon bc there was more support there.

Spoiler: vettrock's progression on Boon

I hate to OMGUS vote, but I'm inclined to vote for Boon as well. I didn't really see the interaction between Wisdom and NM as scum partners, but Boon's recent push on me seems pretty scummy, but I'm not sure how much I'm letting the OMGUS aspect of it bother me.
VOTE: Boon

Only scum have a reason to self vote. Feeling better about my vote already.

assuming nothing went terribly wrong somewhere, I think scum should be within {Flames, vettrock, Boon, TS}, but I need to investigate further

I think I could support any of those other than vettrock, with a possible exception of TierShift.

town to scum
pieguyn
formerfish/Bert
Seohuyn/Tiershift
Flames
Boon

I can support flames. He was my pick before Boon started scumming it up.

VOTE: Flames

Looks like this is L-1.

My reaction is

'So that's why he mighta been mightie careful about not being scummy"

Yeh I had no thought cross my mind of you being a potential pr

So now both players who have had the most pressure today, in their words when under pressure (sometimes those words can be the most clearly thought in a weird way), have continued to push Vettrock as a scumread

I am missing something and will look back

I'm not sure what you mean by this.

I still like Boon over flames, but that is what we have. We have time, so I probably should have waited before moving me vote back.

I don't think it's particularly inconsistent, or that he's backpedaling. sure, it doesn't necessarily make Boon town, but that's the reason I first thought vettrock's D3 play looked like scum opportunistically voting Boon as opposed to scum bussing.

I'm still thinking about why there was basically no effort to save vettrock if that's what he was actually going for. as I said, if that was his strategy, he really did absolutely nothing over it; if you look at the posts where vettrock got wagoned, there was no defense of him nor any push on an alternate target besides a few posts related to me, who was never getting lynched that day. how do you see this making sense coming from scum defending a partner?

p-edit: and that post is exactly why your attitude here is shit if you're town. whatever

[TierShift]

p-edit: and that post is exactly why your attitude here is shit if you're town. whatever

[TierShift]

I don't think it's particularly inconsistent, or that he's backpedaling. sure, it doesn't necessarily make Boon town, but that's the reason I first thought vettrock's D3 play looked like scum opportunistically voting Boon as opposed to scum bussing.

Uh, I guess I see your point. I don't know how to explain it, then.

I'm still thinking about why there was basically no effort to save vettrock if that's what he was actually going for. as I said, if that was his strategy, he really did absolutely nothing over it; if you look at the posts where vettrock got wagoned, there was no defense of him nor any push on an alternate target besides a few posts related to me, who was never getting lynched that day. how do you see this making sense coming from scum defending a partner?

perhaps he wasn't going for the save. Rereading it, he probably wanted to get towncred for not hammering flames instead of defending his buddy.

Go reread it yourself. He basically avoids the vettrock wagon until it's too late. I'm going to throw away my previous theory of defending his buddy, as that doesn't fit with the timeframe.

[pieguyn]

perhaps he wasn't going for the save. Rereading it, he probably wanted to get towncred for not hammering flames instead of defending his buddy.

Go reread it yourself. He basically avoids the vettrock wagon until it's too late. I'm going to throw away my previous theory of defending his buddy, as that doesn't fit with the timeframe.

so you think his scum strategy was to open by soft distancing, stop distancing for some reason, and then basically entirely avoid taking any kind of hard stance on vettrock whatsoever (bus or defend)?

I don't deny at all it's possible - I could see it coming from scum-him coasting and hoping he would somehow get a lynch that wasn't vettrock, despite doing absolutely nothing to push a lynch anywhere else - but if that's what he did he kind of worked himself into a corner here. /shrug

this would make more sense if I could figure out if scum-him had any explicit gain by doing any of this, or if this would just be him-scum failing at interacting with a partner. either way, will think it over

[Bert]

Spoiler: hmmm random boon quotes from Day 3

@Flames - vettrock is saying he has read much of the game, yet he's trying to POE people? Haha. Just by reading the page before this and skimming some of it beforehand I'm town reading Flames pretty hard, and scum reading Vett. I read both of their ISO's (including Vett's earlier slot), and Flames genuinely looks like he's town on the verge of figuring out this game (we'll find out later how accurate he is). Vett looks like he replaced into a scum slot and isn't sure how to move on forward with it.

VOTE: Vettrock

I'll sheep my town read onto really my only scum read at this point.

Boon
Flames
Bert/Fish
Seo
Pie
Tier
Vett

is my town to scum read list. skimmed over ISO's. Subject to change when I figure out more of this game.

Oops.

VOTE: Tier

Who am I kidding? Tier is town af.

VOTE: Pie

Wait, no. Not town.

VOTE: Tier

Meh...

Unvote

@Flames - who do you want me to vote? I'm an option.

Boon, current read on Pie? You ended D3 saying this was super scum pie

Meh, I can't read pie. I'd rather lynch Tier over Pie today regardless, because A) we lynch ScumTier or B) We lynch TownTier and can leave Pie to die to the perish song.

Boon
Flames
Bert
Seo
Tier/Pie

I don't like that Seo just happened to have redirected Tier to Pie or the fact that Seo did not doing anything on Night 2.

Flames682 - I like how Flames has been playing. Mostly all of his posts are one liners and quick, and he hasn't been throwing his vote all over the place. When he voted Vettrock, he actually changed from his quick one liner posts and wrote a little more to explain his vote. He also has been generally posting longer posts when talking about vettrock, and this just seems like Flames trying to figure out the game. I'm leaning town.

Bert - I'm not exactly sure what Bert is doing. Sometimes I feel like he isn't doing absolutely anything, but other times I feel he's helping a lot. I don't know. He's my hardest to figure out. I feel like he's looking for reasons to mislynch someone, but he isn't coming off as scummy at all. I'm nervous to town read him as I don't want him to fall off the radar and just slip by if he actually is scum. This is my nullest read for now. I'm completely in the middle with him. I'll have to evaluate this more.

vettrock - I don't really like much about vettrock. There's been a few time where I thought he came across as town, like in 1274, but other times he is the scummiest thing ever. His reactions to my self-voting was super opportunistic, and he is voting Flames and saying he would prefer a Boon lynch, but he'll settle for Flames is him preparing for an excuse. I haven't looked over the Marquis slot much. I'm scum reading him.

Seohyun - I don't think scum would flat out say they are town reading everyone but one person in the game, and point that out. Everything he posts seems pretty town, including his psychic slip up. I'm town reading him.

pieguyn - I'm paranoid as all hell with her. She looks just like she did last game when her and I were scum partners, and I can't shake the idea that she is scum out of my head. Doesn't help that she replaced BlueBloodedToffee and I wasn't town reading BBT, one of the people I go out of my way to join a game with on the site, someone who I can usually town read pretty easily by early Day 2/late Day 1. Doesn't mean I was scum reading BBT, but yeah. I don't like the way she tried to conf town herself; she did that last game too. I also don't get why only 1 Psychic would be on the scum team. I don't like how she could be buddying herself up to Vettrock. She did that to Elbirn in the last game. Hard. This being said, i'm not stating they are scum together. I also don't like 1309. I'm scum reading her.

Formerfish - Fishy is hard for me to read, but if I'm not suspicious of Fishy, he's usually town. Nothing really shows as scummy to me. I don't have much to say on this. I'm leaning town.

TierShift - I feel Tier's just playing it safe. Hiding behind simple reads that he can change. Something is off for me. When just reading in the thread I felt a very scummy feel by him, but his ISO is making me actually see it from a more town perspective. That being said, that isn't hard to fake. I don't like how he's borderline flipflopping on some reads, and that he's not throwing a vote down on vett or flames, two people who have had voted today. It just feels like he's waiting so he doesn't look scummy. I'm leaning scum on him.

Updated Read List:

Boonskiies
Seohyun
Flames
Formerfish
Bert
Tiershift
Vettrock
Pieguyn

VOTE: Pie

You could have jailed Pie last night, who you say you are paranoid of but can't read well. Sort of an impulsive thing would be to jail pie, I mean, given your comments near the end of the Day 3. I'm in a place where I'm not getting good reads on any players remaining. I had Flames as most town going into today (before this game picked up steam), then Boon, then Seo, then Tier, then Pie.

so Boon chatting away is welcom

really I'm still sort of (sort of) sticking with my Boon townread. Doubt cast in my mind but who knows with this game lol

like my feeling is that Tier is being convincing, but I hate to say it but it feels like he has an agenda too much. AHHHH crap

I Dont know. On one hand it could be like, that old Tarot UPick game where supreme mistake in LYLO by one player can't remember who, and Nazarene-hydra is lynched. Because Tier is kinda begging for his life sorta in that old Tarot game, similar feels here. On other hand, this could be Tier doing ETL-style from an old Antihero game where mastin has ETL on the ropes (in this scenario, Pie is the Mastin).

Boon town
Flames town

Look elsewhere.

still jubmled thoughts but i plan to go to the library this week and look at this

[Bert]

Flames are you positive that lynching Boon is best

I'm playing to not screw up which needs a reversal of mindset

[Bert]

Pie read to me is sorta irrelevant as he's technically going to die if tier is tellingvthectruth and is town, and that action is irreversible and taken

No gambits if town hopefully

[Flames682]

Boon probably did jailkeep me last night, hmm

[Flames682]

Really the only thing that's bugging me is Seo conveniently never had a confirmable redirect

[pieguyn]

@Flames: do you make anything of Seo shifting the momentum from Flames to vettrock in 1590?

@Tier: same question

[Bert]

It's possible (not just theoretical unlike some stuff I've spouted) scum can both kill and block in one night, I guess.

And yeah Seo's latest redirect claim for N3 was very convenient, and after others had claimed actions already.

Spoiler: hmmm Seo day 3 tidbits

VOTE: flames

I think that bert, pieguyn, tiershift are town right now, boonskiies leanish town
unsure about vettrock, though maybe his insistence of putting votes down is town-ish?
Somehow leaves only one person I'm not sorta townreading, so my vote goes there

What does me not having the ability have to do with former's ability

Evaluate what you want to be the result of this day phase

scum to be lynched
Read back again on vettrock's iso and I don't see anything really scumlike but I also don't see any big town markers.
I could probably be convinced to switch to vettrock if flames can't be lynched today.

re: forgetting formerfish
tbh I probably was looking at the votes to see who I was forgetting and didn't see his name voting for anyone and just skipped him

There were times I felt like former might be scum based on his aggressive interaction w flames. And he said he was so sure I was scum but looked like he was willing to drop it pretty easily when it seemed like others weren't going to join. Felt weird, but could also be town minded.

re: marquis
He started being all active lurky like he was in this game in our last few games. So I couldn't get a handle on his alignment because it could have went either way. Under normal circumstances I would probably agree to lynch him more readily. Another thing to note is that he replaced out of the Persona 3 FES mafia game after a while of being active lurky like here (the game was going on at the same time as this one for a while). He was town there. That might mean something? Well he replaced out here too, but it was after the whole hiatus thing, and way after his other replace out.

I'd be willing to look into pie tomorrow

[pieguyn]

It's possible (not just theoretical unlike some stuff I've spouted) scum can both kill and block in one night, I guess.

I know Nati usually allows factional kill + alternate ability in the same night. plus most role madness setups like this would be broken if that wasn't the case (ex. if scum couldn't use another ability while killing here we'd get TS, Flames, Boon all town and autowin)

[Bert]

I feel like Seo kinda got Townread a bit for his role confusion

Spoiler: last Seo tidbits d3

I'm also curious to know what ppl think about him replacing out due to apathy. I don't think it makes sense he'd be bussing a partner the whole game, and then suddenly get apathetic for no reason after doing it.

The game was getting dull, I can understand it. I didn't think he was scum.

Still nothing. What's your read on boon then?

I townread wisdom, and I'm not getting scumvibes from boon yet.
It's like the only replacement where my read didn't change. Because before I scumread bbt, pieguyn im seeing more as town though. And with kbw, he seemed like he might be scum after reading through isos, but formerfish doesn't seem like scum to me. Marquis I leaned scum but vettrock is more null.

Is that this day phase you've spent all ur postings completely fixated on explaining your role and abilities, and any kind of relevant discussion about who you think is scum has been absent

Weird right?
At least that's the way it seems

They ask question -> I answer
But I'll stop talking about it from here since it has gone on for a while

re:boonskiies
seems rather "lol reactions", but the reason for people voting him also seems to be just based on his playstyle. I'd prefer not to policy lynch.

feelin' nauseous again so i'll be back later

Mobile ISos are fun

Pedit: cool to know. Dang

[pieguyn]

I Dont know. On one hand it could be like, that old Tarot UPick game where supreme mistake in LYLO by one player can't remember who, and Nazarene-hydra is lynched. Because Tier is kinda begging for his life sorta in that old Tarot game, similar feels here. On other hand, this could be Tier doing ETL-style from an old Antihero game where mastin has ETL on the ropes (in this scenario, Pie is the Mastin).

this game wasn't that old, was it?

and I know mastin said as soon as she first saw me that I'm similiar to her. oooo

[Bert]

Mini 1619, not old. My last completed game

Tarot completed was March 2014, ironically that game was going on a year ago on this day. Lol