Signs and Void (Game Over) [TM2015]

[Titus]

@Tammy,

Our play has evolved over the past year or so. We usually have some sort of fighting, but that's because ika LOL reaction tests me.

I know his role and he knows mine, so I don't really consider that a problem so I can go right along protecting GiF and he can protect me. It's a virtuous cycle.

[Shadoweh]

Tammy, do you think Espeonage is bad wrong, or scum? Do you think he posted that just to rile you up, because that was the obvious result I'd expect out of it.

Please do not bring ika into this game, see Tammy's above statement. :V

[fferyllt]

Anyway, I think I'm prob gonna be useless until some ppl dies out, or at least for few weeks. I'm looking to see if one of my teammates can switch with me though.

Bring ika maybe? But Day 1 is always the hardest. No real evidence to go on. Unless a wagon hits scum day 1, the wagon is more useful for VCA than anything else.

FTR, GiF is my second strongest townread because ika.

Don't you and ika constantly read each other wrong, tunnel and fight?

Does this suggestion concern you?

[fferyllt]

I'm flying home tomorrow. I'll have tablet/phone access occasionally but won't be wallposting (heh) until I'm home and caught up on sleep.

[Titus]

@Fferylt, I don't think Tammy was trying to starta fight between me and GiF...

Sorry if that was not directed at me though...I am just uncertain what "this suggestion" meant. If you meant my suggestion, get ika, then I doubt you would have quoted Tammy's post but I am terrible with vague things.

[Titus]

I'm flying home tomorrow. I'll have tablet/phone access occasionally but won't be wallposting (heh) until I'm home and caught up on sleep.

Have a safe flight!

[Cheetory6]

pretty sure this was just hito saying that you guessed correctly

Where do you stand on the TTH wagon atm? You're being boring again Gamma, why is that? :c

which is a trademark of scum you

Do you have experience with townAronis? What would you be expecting from him that you aren't seeing here?

Bulba and TTH are probably not scum together.

I know I just told him it's probably not important but I'm still not completely happy with this. If anyone's opportunistically jumping on UT forgetting that ffery is confirmed town, it's Cheetory.

For the same reason as before?

See Tammy, the thing is that mollie has played with scum you very recently, I have a rapport with mollie as of recent and I don't have a good rapport with the confirmed town.

Now with that out of the way.

Woah there sir. Why is ffery's read on Tammy out of the way just because you haven't played with her?

Espe, I think you're town

More words on this please. Why?

The scumreads on Tammy,

Sure.

GiF

Eh not sure if I agree..

and Bulba make no sense to me

Uh. Okay, so walk me through this townread on Bulba because I have Tier sitting on my one shoulder telling me that his play on D1 looked bad based on his experience with his scum-meta and a lot of his content lately has just been responding to things/posturing/not a lot of trying to build cases on people to try and build wagons. His Aronis vote is sitting there and there isn't a lot of convincing reasoning there. It looks like it's just there for show to me. His stance on TTH is also pretty contrary, which makes me feel like he's possibly scum trying to avoid jumping on board a large wagon so he can coast for now on the sidelines. Argue with me and convince me that I'm wrong if you think I'm wrong. TIA.

FTR, GiF is my second strongest townread because ika.

What do you mean?

I'm waiting for it to be resolved before bringing up distractions.

Why not support it to hopefully get things moving faster then? Are you waiting to give your take on it atm?

I want Marquis/DV to keep being active. UT/TSO should also start posting again.

VOTE: TTH

[DeasVail]

Espeonage: Espe is interesting in that there are some things that actively concern me (him reading a boon self-vote as scummy is the main thing), but overall I think his play is way too messy to be from scum. He's this low for a reason though, so don't consider my confidence in this incredibly high, but hey, I think he's town and so does Ceph. Things that I think indicate town are his talk of wanting to be baned, his weird VT claim, and his desire to get involved with the thread and reading people despite obviously not being clued in on what's actually been going on. My caution stems from the possibility that this stuff is faked, but why even fake it as scum? I can relate to some of his play and I can't relate to other parts, but in my experience if something doesn't make sense to me from either town or scum it's usually from town, and that's part of the reasoning behind my read here.

This is what I've said before and I've noticed more town things since, but it's another read that I want to look over when I get time.

Regarding activity, I've become quite busy so I don't know how active I'll be. I should have some time to work on this tonight though.

[Bulbazak]

@CDB: Why don't you like looking at how people approach the game? I think that's the best way to understand their mindset and thought process, which helps in figuring out whether they're town or scum.

@Bulba, I'd like to pick your brain on some of the places where we disagree on reads. If you could take for instance Vezok and state a simple case about why you're scumreading him and I'll state a simple case on why I'm townreading him and we can see if we can figure that out or not. You're my biggest townread in the game at the moment, and I don't like how your scumread by a lot of players. I also don't get it.

I'm reevaluating Vezok at the moment. I've asked Mollie to look over his ISO and let me know what she thinks, but her statement that Tammy is scum is making me consider that I've been off not only there, but also on Empire, which would put Vezok square in "most likely town". I may have just had a bad knee jerk reaction to him. I still hate the last post of his from the minor day, though.

P-edit: Why is your approval for TTH essentially Aronis's reason word for word?

Um that was serious?

Yes. I asked Mollie to look over the game, Vezok in particular, and "Tammy is scum" is what she came back with. She's since expanded on it, saying that your reactions are off. She compares your reaction here to being scumread to the one in Unbalanced 2, where you were hysterical and threatened to replace out. Here it looks like you don't care. She says that your posts are passive aggressive to people who aren't townreading you, and that you don't seem to be worried about getting lynched. She says you seem very confident, but that there's also a weird placidness that she doesn't understand. She didn't like you hiding behind Ffery's read in #1405 or the discredit that followed. She says that when you're town, you argue as to why you're town, instead of relying on someone else's read. She says that it's a specious argument and that you know that conf. town does not equal conf. reads, and that as far as she knows, both Ffery and herself have a similar track record in terms of playing with you.

In regards to Ffery, she does think she can see where Ffery is getting her town read of you. She thinks it's where you claimed not to have read the set up. This comes from the assumption that scum Tammy would have been more careful and read the setup before hand. Mollie says she's not sure about that. She's also stated that if Ffery's scumreading me, then "the axis of which she is pivoting the game is borked", which is why she's not trusting the reads at all.

Hey Bulba. Can you ask mollie if she thinks that Tammy's tone is town frustrated or scum default? She's seen both recently, they are both similar.

Why don't yu ask the confirmed fucking town that is actually playing in this game, has played more games with me, and can read me better.

Personally, I trust Mollie's ability to read you better, as she's spent more time with you not only in games, but also in a hydra.

It's unnerving that he's not playing in a manner that he knows most players would town read him if he's town.

Why do you think he wouldn't do this if he's scum?

He may not think he could replicate that sort of play as scum. To be fair, I'm not sure he can either.

La di da, I supose I should mention I've been reading since day start, today's discussion about TTH just caught me off-guard so I'm waiting for it to be resolved before bringing up distractions.

What do you think about the TTH wagon?

Do you have experience with townAronis?

Yes, although I think his scum game is easier to pick out.

What would you be expecting from him that you aren't seeing here?

It's what I'm seeing that's actually the problem. I played with scum Aronis in LotR, and he's incredibly obvious as scum. If he's being opportunistic in his voting patterns, then he's more than likely scum and should be lynched.

Uh. Okay, so walk me through this townread on Bulba because I have Tier sitting on my one shoulder telling me that his play on D1 looked bad based on his experience with his scum-meta and a lot of his content lately has just been responding to things/posturing/not a lot of trying to build cases on people to try and build wagons. His Aronis vote is sitting there and there isn't a lot of convincing reasoning there. It looks like it's just there for show to me. His stance on TTH is also pretty contrary, which makes me feel like he's possibly scum trying to avoid jumping on board a large wagon so he can coast for now on the sidelines. Argue with me and convince me that I'm wrong if you think I'm wrong. TIA.

First, I have no faith in Tier's ability to read me at all. Second, you just got done saying that I'm probably not scum with TTH. However, you think I may be scum avoiding jumping on the TTH wagon. But then you immediately vote TTH. Why? If I'm scum, then TTH is likely town, and I'm avoiding a mislynch, which means you need to dismantle the wagon. However, if I'm town, then that means I have real objections to the TTH wagon. These are objections that I would think you would try to get to the bottom of if you're town. And if that's the case, then that means that you wouldn't want to rush a TTH vote. So again, why are you voting TTH, because from everything you've just said, that is the worst possible vote imaginable.

[Cheetory6]

First, I have no faith in Tier's ability to read me at all.

Looking forward to Tier's angry response to this

Second, you just got done saying that I'm probably not scum with TTH. However, you think I may be scum avoiding jumping on the TTH wagon. But then you immediately vote TTH. Why? If I'm scum, then TTH is likely town, and I'm avoiding a mislynch, which means you need to dismantle the wagon. However, if I'm town, then that means I have real objections to the TTH wagon. These are objections that I would think you would try to get to the bottom of if you're town. And if that's the case, then that means that you wouldn't want to rush a TTH vote. So again, why are you voting TTH, because from everything you've just said, that is the worst possible vote imaginable.

Do you think I'm trying to get TTH quicklynched right now?

If he's being opportunistic in his voting patterns

So, how is he being opportunistic with his voting patterns?

[Bulbazak]

Do you think I'm trying to get TTH quicklynched right now?

I'm not sure why you're voting him. Everything you just said indicates that you wouldn't want to.

If he's being opportunistic in his voting patterns

So, how is he being opportunistic with his voting patterns?

All of his reads and all of his votes have been the popular choices.

[Cheetory6]

TTH hasn't said anything of note.
Vezok has a sketchy night result on her.
She probably isn't scum with you.
If the pressure is there, it'll hopefully pressure her to either start posting or replace out.
If she starts saying scummy things, the wagon can stay. If she starts acting town then yay the pressure of the wagon can move elsewhere.
Not really hard to follow.

[Bulbazak]

I would have thought you'd spend some time asking why I didn't like the wagon, since you didn't think we were scum together. Instead you jumped to me being scum trying to avoid a big wagon. Those two thoughts seem contradictory to me.

[Cheetory6]

I feel stronger about you not being scum together than I do about you being scum trying to avoid a big wagon.
I also care more about interacting with Titus on this read on you because I haven't really gotten very much out of directly interacting with you. I still feel pretty damn confused about you after having interacted with you for a decent amount of last cycle, so I'm trying something different.

[vezokpiraka]

Can we lynch TTH and continue from there?

I'm not really seeing a scenario where TTH flips town.

[DeasVail]

Can we lynch TTH and continue from there?

I'm not really seeing a scenario where TTH flips town.

I feel like you're missing possibilities, unless you have more information than I do.

[Shadoweh]

Simply put, DV is on my team's list of expected nightkills, so detecting him is suspicious. It'll depend on TTH's explanation, if he ever you know, posts again. Just from a scan of TTH he wanted to boon vezok but booned Marquis for some reason. I'm not against it. It's just disinteresting.

[Tammy]

Couple quick things while I'm awake for no reason....thanks waffles.

Shadoweh. - I was thinking about the espeonage thing last night on the way home, and I'm not completely sure. I do think he overexplain ee his scum read on me though, and that's problematic. I'm inclined to think that if he were scum reading me, he'd just do it without making those awkward kinda reasons why. I also think he'd be less inclined to needle me and hyper focus on just me constantly not wanting to be on a wagon I'm on or not wanting me booked.

Ffery - the suggestion concerns me insofar as I'm wondering what it means, if anything, for their respective alignments.

Bulba - that's horseshit. My reactions are fine, they're town because I'm town. I find it really really suspicious that after spending all of yesterday calling me town, which I thought was off mind you!, you're using someone who can't read me all that well to turn your read on me around. It's too convenient. Not to mention the shit as fuck reason you gave for why you're trusting someone who doesn't actually have that much experience with me over someone who does. All of mollies shit was shit too. It's kinda funny because in all that oh well I trust mollie because she's hydrad with you, which she on,y has in a scum hydra once, so she knows you better, you guys keep just mentioning ffery - and forgetting the fact that we may not have hydrad but there's more recent experience there - and I don't know where you're getting the mollie knows me better, I don't feel like she does. Also in that oh I'm going to trust mollie cuz hydra and faulty "knows me better" how come both of you are ignoring nachos read, who actually does know me better, has played more with me, has hydrad several times with me including one right now?

I'm not relying on gestalt's read on me to explain why I'm town. I don't need to do that, and if I did need them to do that I'm sure they would. My ISO stands for itself. They are there as a confirmed fucking town resource, a resource that knows me better than anyone here, knows how I'm thinking and approaching games in a more recent manner than anyone else. It unnerves me that espeonage is ignoring them in order to get feedback from what would be to a town him an unknown source. IT looks like he's doing that in order to back up his reasons for scum reading me than actually trying to figure out my alignment. Because if he really wanted to figure out my alignment and work with me if I were town like he claimed in minor day, the logical thing to do would actually oh say I don't know talk to the slot that actually knows me better and is confirmed fucking town. That he's ignoring that is fucked up.

My main problem with this whole thing is not me ruling on someone's town read, but that you people are avoiding them like the plague. Not one person who suspects me, and who should know better, has engaged them on that read, and I find that hella suspicious.

And empire get your ass in here and do something and the above goes for you too. I know your motto as scum is only post what you have to to not get lynched but come the fuck on. Yes, you had a pretty reads list, you can do that as scum. You've had superficial decent responses to people's suspicion of you but it felt mechanical like you were saying it because you had to say it. But you've actually shown absolutely no interest in actually trying to figure me out beyond that stupid ass regfan wants your current reads and reasons which he can still shove. Your recent oh gosh I'm so bad at this I don't know what to do reads really fake and doesn't jive with your oh the scum teams a quaking entrance. I don't believe for one second your total content from a town you so far today is I dunno regfan and I are disagreeing I'm gonna go hide in a corner. So come out here and do something.

I didn't read anything that didn't have to do with me because 3:30am selfabsorption. I'm gonna try to go back to sleep now.

Oh wait vezok - Oversoul wanted me to ask you why you traced tth. He wants to see if it's in line with why we did I think.

Okay sleep now, hopefully.

[Tammy]

Also them fighting tends to have a cluttering effect, which is not beneficial.

[vezokpiraka]

I traced tth, because I had a scumread on him since antihero switched. Nothing he did helped make me think he's town.

[Tammy]

Oh also, I did not threaten to replace out of unbalanced because I was being scum read. The on,y time I said I'd replace out was when I tried to reach out to mollie day one and Try to get a read on her. She ignored my questions, and ika said she didn't want to talk to me. That felt all kinds of weird and hostile. I didn't understand where it was coming from and thought it was because she didn't want me in the game. Apparently though it was due to some day three rule she was following with me and I misunderstood.

And no she's completely wrong about experience levels.

[Tammy]

But you were in that game.

[Tammy]

And because this is bugging me and apparently I'm not going to go back to sleep:

Mollies experience with me over the past year: the reckoning (we fought the entire game), quickness (found each other as town quickly, I died night one. I was alive for three real life days), capcom (we were a scum hydra), unbalanced (town/town, had our ups and downs suspicion wise but ultimately found each other as town.)

Ffery's: two newbie games she modded where I was scum, tales of vesperia (town/town fought day one realized we were town by end of day), board game (town/town suspected each other until my final day in game), tales of you (town/town my strongest town read, she had lingering paranoia), final fantasy x (town/town I was the paranoid one), serum and steel (town/town initial paranoia on both sides didn't last long), fantasy camp (me scum her nacho town, this was a misread due to me specifically tailoring my game to get a town read from nacho), Arcadia (scum partners), mafia on the air (masons), and two others. I feel like I'm forgetting one but maybe not. What has been the trend is that both of us learned how to read each other, now we're trying to figure out how to translate that into working together for town wins.

So sisters we may be, more experienced we are not.

And that's only considering one of the heads of that teams experience with me.

[Gammagooey]

TTH hasn't done anything and him coming up with a bad trace result is probably lynchworthy, I just don't really have anything useful to say about him until he gets into the thread.

I've been kind of overloaded with work and personal stuff recently, I'll do my best to find time to share my bulba thoughts at least tomorrow night.

[fferyllt]

Yes. I asked Mollie to look over the game, Vezok in particular, and "Tammy is scum" is what she came back with. She's since expanded on it, saying that your reactions are off. She compares your reaction here to being scumread to the one in Unbalanced 2, where you were hysterical and threatened to replace out. Here it looks like you don't care. She says that your posts are passive aggressive to people who aren't townreading you, and that you don't seem to be worried about getting lynched. She says you seem very confident, but that there's also a weird placidness that she doesn't understand. She didn't like you hiding behind Ffery's read in #1405 or the discredit that followed. She says that when you're town, you argue as to why you're town, instead of relying on someone else's read. She says that it's a specious argument and that you know that conf. town does not equal conf. reads, and that as far as she knows, both Ffery and herself have a similar track record in terms of playing with you.

In regards to Ffery, she does think she can see where Ffery is getting her town read of you. She thinks it's where you claimed not to have read the set up. This comes from the assumption that scum Tammy would have been more careful and read the setup before hand. Mollie says she's not sure about that. She's also stated that if Ffery's scumreading me, then "the axis of which she is pivoting the game is borked", which is why she's not trusting the reads at all.

Hey Bulba. Can you ask mollie if she thinks that Tammy's tone is town frustrated or scum default? She's seen both recently, they are both similar.

Why don't yu ask the confirmed fucking town that is actually playing in this game, has played more games with me, and can read me better.

Personally, I trust Mollie's ability to read you better, as she's spent more time with you not only in games, but also in a hydra.

So no bombshells from Mollie.

She's missing a lot of the basis for my townread, and what she picked up was something I think is town for different reasons. it's a different (and much more extensive) slice of experiential meta that's informing my read.

I'm not going to try to discern Mollie's alignment filtered through your posts. From what I know of her games with Tammy the meta basis is thin but she hasn't twisted the data out of shape or anything.