13p Normal [TM2015]

[Trojan Horse]

Jason: I kinda figured that you protected pie. Reasonable choice.

Thor665 (7 - LYNCH)- sthar8, pieguyn, Trojan Horse, Save The Dragons, SleepyKrew, Fenchurch, Egg,

it would not surprise me if everyone on here was town. I'm almost positive scum tried to save Thor at the end of the day here. mastin has a different opinion from me on this.

part of me thinks if we just lynched all the people off the wagon save jason we'd win the game immediately. I doubt it was a coincidence that Boon was here and FAILED to move his vote despite him having no fucking reason for actually being on TH, nor that we had a bunch of people conveniently vote TH at the end for what, IMO, were weak reasons or "don't want to lynch a PR". but eh

pie, I too would not be surprised if that wagon was all town. I'm certainly leaning town on all of them, some more strongly than others. But I need to consider the possibility of a bus here.

I've had strong town reads on pie and STD for some time now, and Fen is dead. Of sthar, SK, and Egg, which of those votes is most likely a bus? You know what? I think I'd say Egg. Here's why:

Unvote, Vote Boon

We need a flashwagon. Everyone not voting needs to change this immediately. If people don't like Boon for today, I'll compromise but this is where I want us to lynch.

This post is not a problem. Egg's next post:

Unvote, Vote Trojan

Before he switched, I had two votes; this vote made it three. Still not a problem; he was trying to find a flashwagon. However, the very next post was...

UNVOTE: std
VOTE: boon

Why is this not happening egg?

...which put Boon at 2. At this point, Egg could vote for either Boon or me; both wagons would've been equally viable. But he stayed on me; he had a chance to switch before I got vote #4, but he didn't.

Egg had already said that he favored Boon for a flashlynch...

Who would be your next choice for lynch?

Boon

... and I don't see anything that suggests he changed his mind, and saw me as scummier than Boon. Maybe Egg just wanted to lynch anyone other than Thor, and only switched to Thor to avoid looking suspicious.

Man. I started typing this post leaning town on Egg, and now I'm not so sure. Time to study Egg's ISO further...

[Malakittens]

Pie

let me break this down for you.

You can't read me worth of shit.

Let's break down any game we have ever played together shall we?

Let's go with the most recent:

Touhou U3. This game was a hell in a handbasket for me. This was the game that finally got me to notice my game has been seriously off and I'm making changes to fix it. I pretty much townread the scum, and scumread the town. You dayvigged me when you were confident on other people being scum. You didn't read me there once correctly.

Newbie 1570. I was already dead and nightkilled by the time you replaced in. So you didn't have to gain any effort into reading me.

Gif's Touhou. We were mason's together and a vig. That game I wasn't completely all there (due to vacations/meet's), but when I was there my reads were

actually

pretty spot on with a few maybe spotty areas. I wanted to vig a player and you wholeheartedly dismissed me in a pretty rude manner. Then I basically said fuck the game after that.

Touhou U2. You were dead by the time I replaced in. So didn't have to read me.

Tales of You. To be honest this game was so long ago I don't remember it. Plus hydra'd with Tammy and she's always obv town.

Other Gif Touhou I also don't remember this game, but that's because it's over a year plus old.

Too Many Heads. Fuck this game, lol. you were scum here, granted I was scumreading Gif more than you because I used to be able to read Gif fairly easily.

Tit for Tat. Don't remember this game, but we were scum buddies.


So we have played eight games together. Granted I only remember like the ones from Nov of last year to most recent.

You misread me in the one game where I was town most recently.
Tammy and I were a masonary (lol) and Tammy being Tammy was obv town early on.
We have been scum together once.
We been town mason's together once.
We each were dead before we both replaced in, twice.
I was scum in a game once. (granted I was lynched by a fake cop guilty, ty AD)
You were scum in a game once.

You only had to basically sort me one game in all of the games we really ever played together, maybe two if you want to count the Tammy-game. So yes I'm discrediting your read on me because YOUR READ on me is wrong here. You have been wrong in the past.

Whereas I would like Mastin to read from the start of D1. I think just basing off the fact my actions at the end of D1 is a way to get an incorrect read. So what I'm saying IS you need to reset and so does Mastin.

[Malakittens]

What I was asking has she read the game fully or is she just reading off of my end game of D1?

she's reading from the end of D1, correct.

Also Pie seriously your tunnel on me pretty much all game is crap. You didn't consult with mara or Mastin when I reached out to you before, but now it's pretty clear Mastin has a read that deciding to fit your bill to a T.

HAHA

I actually lol'd when I read this. first mastin should be the best one on our team at reading you, now that she's scum reading you you're claiming she's just following whatever my read was?

you know why mastin is reading you as scum? it's posts like this. tell me, exactly what about the way I approached the read on you D1 could be considered "tunneling"? I wasn't even fucking pushing you and was instead

actively trying to convince people not to lynch you

, explicitly because I was factoring notsci's read on you into account.

what you're saying here is the exact opposite of the truth. I, nor mastin, don't see you-town thinking this actually makes sense. we don't see a town approach in how you're handling the read on you here; all both of us are seeing is that you're just creating noise here and trying to discredit. like, seriously, I was supposedly tunneling specifically because I didn't ask Mara or mastin, despite the fact that I HAD asked notsci, he had given me a town read on you, and I was satisfied with it?

soooooo yeah

I was trying to get a sense of where Mastin read or what she read. Granted if she hasn't read anything you could be influencing her scumread on me because you feel that I'm scum. I wanted to know if she had read everything or not or if she's going with things that you said and she's nodded and agreed with. I don't fucking understand why that's so impossible for you to understand.

The way you started D1 was tunneling, but you substantially got better when you realized that notty was townreading me. You never once stopped scumreading me, granted you stopped pushing me. So actively tunneling me yes, actively tunneling-pushing me no. I would have thought you would have asked your whole team for a read on me. Notty isn't the only one on your team that has experience with playing with me.

btw, we also feel that Egg and DW's reactions to Thor at the end of D1 are highly town and will not consider anything resembling a lynch on either of them at this juncture.

I disagree with this. I didn't like DW's or Egg's sudden push for a flashwagon on Boons. It was anti-town as fuck. It seemed to want to derail both the Jason and the Thor wagons. I pointed this out numerous times. Not to mention, how the fuck are you scumreading me for doing almost exactly what Delta was in regards to a fucking reaction to Thor. I stand by my belief that I will NOT LYNCH A D1 FUCKING POWERROLE CLAIM. I WILL NOT FLASHWAGON ANYTHING. Both of those things are not town motivated. Boons wasn't even around for a flashwagon on him. How would you have felt if we did what DW and Egg were suggesting, flashed lynched Boon, Boon flipped town and a possibility of Boon flipping a PR too. if that happened.. Chances are you would most likely be scumreading the both of them.

So how are their actions town...?

Pie was also hedging his read on me d1. Granted it was because he was trying to reign it in due to notty, but still he kept his option to vote me which was hedging. So tunneling at the start and then hedging towards the end.

hedging towards the end...... when you didn't have a wagon on you and were in no danger of being lynched.

yeah, nice hedge there

(not to mention I had specifically said I wasn't interested in lynching you D1, so this is a load of shit.)

I was more importantly talking about how you continued to have a scum-read on me. I thought I was seeing more people calling for my lynch than just Fench.

I was wrong.

I want Mastin to read from The start of D1 and not just the end of D1 pie. That a way to gain a flawed read and not an accurate one.

didn't you just say it was just her fitting her read to my read?

regardless, I'll ask her, but she feels you are "certainly scum" just based on your posts today/at the end of D1, so I don't particularly understand why you think her read on you would be different if she read the whole game.

(this is another post I don't see a town approach in, btw. you're essentially claiming that mastin's read is invalid bc she hasn't read the game - again, trying to discredit. /shrug)

I didn't say her read is invalid. I want her to read from D1 start to now and see if it changes. She's wrong, you are wrong. You both need to stop and face the music.

everyone should read the BS Mala has been pushing here.

I have now counted at least 3 arguments coming from her that have

objectively wrong

, and should be obviously so to anyone who is reading the game. she's not actually trying to work with me, or putting any legitimate effort into trying to convince me that she's town. she's supposedly trying to get me to "fix" my read on her, but has elaborated

literally 0

on why I should be finding her town here - rather, she's ignoring the reasons I have for her being scum and creating noise in order to distract (for instance, insisting that mastin read the full game and pulling this up whenever mastin calls her scum in order to discredit her). she's just making shit up in order to misdirect/downplay my read on her and hoping no one actually verifies what she's saying.

please don't make me spam this until this gets addressed, bc I will fucking do it. you thought I led the lynch on Thor? I'm capable of strong arming a lynch a thousand times harder than I strong armed that one.

SK, you just pointed out the exact thing that makes Mala's play this game day coming from scum instead of town. please vote her.

p-edit: oh nvm. thanks <3

I don't do the 'tell me why you are town shit'. I don't like that shit at all that anyone pulls in a game. If you don't think I'm town by an ISO then tough shit. Give me a point by point reason why i'm scum and I'll try to refute a case. People telling someone to point out why I'm town is scummy as fuck, I'm sorry.

[Malakittens]

VOTE: DW.

I don't like the whole let's flashwagon Boon. He tried to derail both the TH and the Thor lynch, granted he was in the same boat as me for not wanting to lynch Thor, but there was no reason for him to try derail the TH lynch either like he did. The only reason why he would derail the TH was because he had a higher scumread on Boon. Boon went V/LA, didn't claim. Why was there a sudden push for wanting Boon lynched like ~hours~ before the deadline.

I didn't like it. I'm mainly scumreading Egg for sorta the same reasons.

I'll flesh out my reasons for my townreads later, but they are pretty strong IMO.

[pieguyn]

...........

when I get to a computer I'll explain why you're spouting bullshit here

[Malakittens]

Malakittens [The Unviggable Vegetables]

A scum malakittens could hide behind a policy of not lynching a claimed PR D1 as a way not to lynch their buddy.

Malakittens wrote:
I have seen a hider and a BG in the same setup, it's just a large not a mini-normal.

~

VOTE: Trojan

Sorry to do this man, but I feel thor is just a riskier lynch due to the pr claim.

;-;


This post is a defense of Thor's claim, and then a vote and an apology for voting Trojan. This means she doesn't think Trojan is scum, but she's voting for him. It is possible it is because she's settling for a townread. (or a zany theory; a {Thor, TH, Mala} scum team she's apologizing to the partner she is bussing)

I was apologizing to TH because I didn't like the thought of lynching him. Towards the end of the day I was getting a bit of a townread on Trojan for the way he was expressing his last reads from his team. It felt town-motivated like he was trying to give his last will. That's what made me believe that Trojan was flipping town and I apologized because I didn't want to lynch town, but at the same time I didn't want to lynch Thor, who claimed a PR. I was conflicted and I knew that I couldn't wagon anyone else.

[Malakittens]

Was townreading Egg even before his vote. I'm having trouble seeing his vote as "gotta bus my partner for town cred." I'm probably not going to be interested in Egg today, or rather the case of "that vote looked suspicious" isn't going to do it for me.

Boon looks worse with the thor flip. Having one buddy defend or bus and one completely ignore seems plausible and if so then Boon's our guy; Thor was pretty polarizing.

Now that I think about it it's actually really odd that Boon says "Jason and Mala" are town when Mala didn't really receive much fire until later. Gun to my head at this moment in time I think the scumteam is {boon, thor, mala} but we'll see. There certainly could be something I'm missing.

Boon why did you include Mala in that town read?

Eh I had some pressure, not a lot, but I was definitely semi-pressured early-D1.

But it wasn't until later that there were things that Fench was doing that felt like she was trying to derail both the Thor and TH lynch at the end of D1 to move it onto me. I felt she was trying to reach out to SK in regards to a read on me in order to swing SK's vote my way.

Granted, it's odd that at the end of D1 SK didn't have a read on me, he didn't try to interact with me to gain a read on me, but now he's currently voting me.

[DeltaWave]

I disagree with this. I didn't like DW's or Egg's sudden push for a flashwagon on Boons. It was anti-town as fuck. It seemed to want to derail both the Jason and the Thor wagons. I pointed this out numerous times. Not to mention, how the fuck are you scumreading me for doing almost exactly what Delta was in regards to a fucking reaction to Thor. I stand by my belief that I will NOT LYNCH A D1 FUCKING POWERROLE CLAIM. I WILL NOT FLASHWAGON ANYTHING. Both of those things are not town motivated. Boons wasn't even around for a flashwagon on him. How would you have felt if we did what DW and Egg were suggesting, flashed lynched Boon, Boon flipped town and a possibility of Boon flipping a PR too. if that happened.. Chances are you would most likely be scumreading the both of them.

So how are their actions town...?

I don't get it. You're voting me for being "anti-town" by promoting a wagon outside of the Jason and Thor, but then you say two sentences later that you were "doing almost exactly what Delta was." This doesn't make sense to me.

[DeltaWave]

VOTE: DW.

I don't like the whole let's flashwagon Boon. He tried to derail both the TH and the Thor lynch, granted he was in the same boat as me for not wanting to lynch Thor, but there was no reason for him to try derail the TH lynch either like he did. The only reason why he would derail the TH was because he had a higher scumread on Boon. Boon went V/LA, didn't claim. Why was there a sudden push for wanting Boon lynched like ~hours~ before the deadline.

I didn't like it. I'm mainly scumreading Egg for sorta the same reasons.

I'll flesh out my reasons for my townreads later, but they are pretty strong IMO.

Well, yeah I did have a stronger scumread on Boon. I was voting him until Post 827, when my team urged me to go with TH instead. I still personally felt like Boon was a better pick. I'd dayvig him right now if I could.

[Save The Dragons]

Mala did you ever post a read on Thor D1

[sthar8]

Sthar, why don't you seem to think there is scum in {Boon/Mala/Vyse}?

Well, I already have two strong scumreads.

Beyond that, Boon is pretty damn town. Mala and Vyse are just now getting their heads in the game, and I'm willing to give them the space to do that. If they lapse into lurking or otherwise become unreadable we can talk about them.

town are {jason, boon, STD}

scum are {egg, delta}

@pie- you don't think that Egg wouldn't be tempted to jump Thor's obviously sinking ship to be a part of an otherwise all-town wagon? Even under pressure, when he knew that he was visibly active at deadline?

[DeltaWave]

Why are you so confident that Boon is town? Why are you so sure I'm scum?

[sthar8]

I'm sure egg is scum. Your iso makes you second place because there's nothing town motivated in it. Boon is town because he's got a good thought process and he's an easy wagon that has had a ton of shit pushes made on him.

[DeltaWave]

so you think my play is not town motivated. Why is it scum motivated?

[sthar8]

I could go pbp, but I'm still at work. What exactly is the question you want to ask me?

[DeltaWave]

I just wanna know what you think I'm trying to do here.

[DeltaWave]

Why don't you tell me why you know my motivations better than I do

[sthar8]

I think you were trying to hedge on thor, and you spent day1 being useless and then being abrasive so nobody would call you on it.

[sthar8]

Why don't you tell me why you know my motivations better than I do

How could I know them better than you? I'd say we're both very familiar with them at this point. It's shared knowledge.

[Malakittens]

Mala did you ever post a read on Thor D1

No, he's one of those players I have issues sorting out due to playstyle clashes and the fact I think of him as an awesome player in general. I was trying to let my teammates sort him for me or someone else. He's just one of those players I'm hesitant to push and then lynch because I think he's pretty good at mafia in general.

I am right. Hiders a shit claim. And if I'm wrong, Thor would have played it like shit anyway

Explain this for me? Why would Thor have played this like shit? Why is a hider a shit claim?

@Sthar: I have also been in this game from the start, why are you saying I'm just getting my head in the game?

[Malakittens]

I disagree with this. I didn't like DW's or Egg's sudden push for a flashwagon on Boons. It was anti-town as fuck. It seemed to want to derail both the Jason and the Thor wagons. I pointed this out numerous times. Not to mention, how the fuck are you scumreading me for doing almost exactly what Delta was in regards to a fucking reaction to Thor. I stand by my belief that I will NOT LYNCH A D1 FUCKING POWERROLE CLAIM. I WILL NOT FLASHWAGON ANYTHING. Both of those things are not town motivated. Boons wasn't even around for a flashwagon on him. How would you have felt if we did what DW and Egg were suggesting, flashed lynched Boon, Boon flipped town and a possibility of Boon flipping a PR too. if that happened.. Chances are you would most likely be scumreading the both of them.

So how are their actions town...?

I don't get it. You're voting me for being "anti-town" by promoting a wagon outside of the Jason and Thor, but then you say two sentences later that you were "doing almost exactly what Delta was." This doesn't make sense to me.

Actually it's the way you and Egg went about doing it. You wanted to flashwagonlynch Boon. You didn't want to give him the chance to claim or give him time to flesh out reads. Whereas me wanting a lynch, I wasn't able to push mine due to RL things etc until close to deadline, by the time it happened we already had two claims and I didn't want to risk lynching a PR.

VOTE: DW.

I don't like the whole let's flashwagon Boon. He tried to derail both the TH and the Thor lynch, granted he was in the same boat as me for not wanting to lynch Thor, but there was no reason for him to try derail the TH lynch either like he did. The only reason why he would derail the TH was because he had a higher scumread on Boon. Boon went V/LA, didn't claim. Why was there a sudden push for wanting Boon lynched like ~hours~ before the deadline.

I didn't like it. I'm mainly scumreading Egg for sorta the same reasons.

I'll flesh out my reasons for my townreads later, but they are pretty strong IMO.

Well, yeah I did have a stronger scumread on Boon. I was voting him until Post 827, when my team urged me to go with TH instead. I still personally felt like Boon was a better pick. I'd dayvig him right now if I could.

I'm aware and Boon isn't a good choice. Boon is pretty solidly town. I can't explain right now fully, but there's things that are very evident of Boon-town.

[sthar8]

Your real life issues, mala. I'm sorry but they were clearly affecting your play yesterday. I've been there, I know how tough that kind of thing can be.

Short answer is: Hider is a strong investigative, which Zor was explicitly avoiding in TM setups. Telling Thor that he would have screwed it up was based on the last time I saw him play an investigative, in molliegeddon. He screwed up his role and got shot needlessly by one of the saddest scumteams I've ever encountered

[Malakittens]

Your real life issues, mala. I'm sorry but they were clearly affecting your play yesterday. I've been there, I know how tough that kind of thing can be.

Short answer is: Hider is a strong investigative, which Zor was explicitly avoiding in TM setups. Telling Thor that he would have screwed it up was based on the last time I saw him play an investigative, in molliegeddon. He screwed up his role and got shot needlessly by one of the saddest scumteams I've ever encountered

<3

I must be missing it. I just ISO'd Thor in molliegeddon. I didn't really see anything wrong in his play other than he was killed N1.

I guess I don't really agree with hider being a strong investigative role other than it being immune to a nightkill unless whoever they 'hid' behind was killed. Granted I haven't played with a hider that much, but I have been a hider before. Crumbs are the hardest thing for a hider to do because it gives risks.

[SleepyKrew]

I'm going to prod dodge for the next few rl days.

[sthar8]

<3

I must be missing it. I just ISO'd Thor in molliegeddon. I didn't really see anything wrong in his play other than he was killed N1.

I guess I don't really agree with hider being a strong investigative role other than it being immune to a nightkill unless whoever they 'hid' behind was killed. Granted I haven't played with a hider that much, but I have been a hider before. Crumbs are the hardest thing for a hider to do because it gives risks.

I mean, he could have claimed and been protected by one of the two available protections that night and gone on to actually use his role... There's also antihero redemption where he shot the towniest obvtown in the thread as a vig. But that's not really relevant.

Hiders get unconditional innocents, and they cannot be directly stopped by scum. In a setup with no strong protective, hiders are

better than cops

at clearing town. It's

less

skill intensive than something Zor explicitly did not want in the setups for

not being skill intensive enough

. Further, it cannot exist in the same setup as another investigative. Thor was obviously looking to out any real investigatives we did have.