Prozac's Basic Theme 4 - Murder in Marlowe - OVER!

[pirate mollie]

pirate mollie notscience what do you guys think of AJ?

I can't tell if I'm in the wrong here or not because he seems so confident.

I don't really have a read on him yet. sorry. when I do I will let you know.

[notscience]

okay so that is weird, cos that used to be a tell for me?/him? in that whenever we played f2f I wld always scumread him when he was town and townread him when he was scum and it got to the point where I wld call him scum and vote him and he wld yell, "I am conftown! mollie just called me scum. i am conftown.". it was funny.

so that is pretty weird since he assigned that to you.

Meh, I chose to ignore it. I'm not sure it's actually alignment indicative and I never committed a full read on him. In fact I havent really had a solid vote that was for my own reasoning all game so idk!

[scotmany12]

Hey AJ. Can you point out where spiffeh lied about SC's case on him? Cause you keep on mentioning it, but I am just not seeing it anywhere.

[Nexus]

unvote

clearly just me that thinks the posturing is coming from scum.

will post thoughts this evening.

[Starbuck]

Starting at the top of Page 11...

Why am I not surprised at Marquis' swap to the SC wagon in #251? This guy just really seems to want a lynch, any lynch.

My gut is telling me that there's some kind of link between mollie and Marquis.

I'm also concerned with Marquis' statements that include "I'd probably say this if I was scum" and "this isn't me trying to excuse my wishywashy reads." It just doesn't sit right with me.



You know in the majority of all this back and forth, there's a severe lack of Reck.

I have zero qualms with Davsto votes. I like scoug more but this is some questionable inactivity from dav

Why do you like the votes? Just because of his inactivity? That's kinda shady.

Why is everyone dropping town reads? Thought this was an experienced group. It does us NO GOOD to do this. IF you really thought someone was town, telling everyone is good play becasue? It is like painting a fucking target. So why do it without anyone asking? I find, that scum do it a lot. Way of making friends…oh look..and you got 7 town reads based on jack shit. Welcome to my scum read.

This has been a question of mine, as well. I've already asked my question about it in a previous catch up post, so hopefully someone answered it between then and now. I don't see the point to do it as town.


So it takes bins' vote of SC to get Marquis to unvote SC. Interesting.

Are you high on turkey or something? You just made a stink about how you read the game and this major life event culminated in an SC vote. I'm asking why it ended in an SC vote vs all the other eligible bachelors/bachelorettes/attack helicopters we have ITT. And I'm getting back chinese fortune cookies for answers.

Ahh, this made me laugh pretty damn hard. I've missed you, Zito.

p-edit great googly moogly is this english

Not to insult anyone, but part of how long my catch up is taking is deciphering what others are trying to say.

@ ckd and starbuck

I think that what we are experiencing here is a bit of a site meta/join date/playstyle clash. marquis pointed this out earlier. 1 of the things that have changed is that pple are more fluid with their reads and are more likely to work with their townreads earlier in the game. both notty and marquis (and me, I just feel like I got lucky and hit the jackpot with sc, egg on my face if I am wrong) but i usually work from the townside out, which means I try to find town first and go from there. that is what they both normally do, so what they are doing is not unusual nor is it scummy, it just might be different from how you play, idk, I am just going off of what you guys have posted so far but there seems to be a bit of a whirlpool of misunderstanding going on. i know you both know this but different /=scummy. for some strange reason I felt like it needed to be said.

I don't necessarily feel that it's playstyle because it's coming off as forced to me. I could concede to playstyle differences if that factor wasn't there.

Trust me, I know that different does not equal scummy. I used to play on the View Askew board when that was in existence, and still play a game on Mafiastache every now and again. The playstyles between those two boards and MS are EXTREMELY different, especially since one real day = one game day in any of the ones that we play over there. So what I'm saying is, from the get go of me joining the original VA board in early 2009 and then joining over here later on in that year, I've been needing to adjust my playstyle depending on which message board that I am playing on.

In this case, it doesn't feel like a playstyle difference to me and the fact that you would try to display it as otherwise is suspect to me, and this subtle whiteknighting just adds to my feeling of some kind of connection between you and Marquis. I, truly, feel that (at least in the case of Marquis right now) that needing to talk about who is town, rather than who is scum, is forced and is a way for him to add content to the game without much substance.


Ending at the bottom of Page 14

[Marquis]

lol that's dumb

[Flameaxe]

[quote=Starbuck]Why do you like the votes? Just because of his inactivity? That's kinda shady.[/quote]

I'm not sure you know what the word inactivity means. His ISO isn't inactivity.

[Flameaxe]

Quotes are hard.

[Starbuck]

Starting at the top of Page 15....

So with MattP replacing SC, mollie just removes her vote all together. The role/slot hasn't changed. So why not keep your vote there?


I already responded to mollie's #354, but I find it highly suspect that instead of pointing me in the direction of clarification, mollie just wants to throw shade and say that I'm skimming and cherry picking. I mean, I can't quote every single post and respond, but if there is something that I missed in this huge thorough catch up that I'm doing, why not just point me in that direction for further reading or give an explanation if you dislike my take on what I read?

This early in a large game, you kinda just roll with the conversations. It's kind of odd that you would bring up the number of people that SC has interacted with as a way to cast a shadow on him. As far as my read through after the fact, I see him interacting with more than two people. Given that this particular post was written in the middle of a Saturday, he could have easily had a busy day and just checked in when he could on the weekend. I, typically, take post day and time into consideration as I'm usually more active with mafia during week days than weekends.

Maybe you should take these thoughts and rephrase them into direct questions for SC. Going back to reading earlier, it didn't really feel like your vote on him was all that serious.

I made a whole big giant post about why i think sc is scum. I feel like you are making the weirdest excuses for him while dismissing my case.

hey if you think it is stupid just say so. but what you have said here makes me think that you didn't pay particular attention to my post at all.

Marquis' #227 vote on CKD doesn't surprise me in the least. OMGUS at its finest. CKD saw quite a bit of the same things that I saw in Marquis. The listing of town reads (which I don't remember much of a few years back) really seems to be a way for scum to try and look like they are adding to the game, but also as a way to make villagers look scummy for not listing their town reads. It's a strange tactic, and I feel, given that no one else did a full out list of reads that Marquis just did it to garner some town points. I'm already not feeling Marquis so this straight OMGUS vote back on CKD doesn't help him in my eyes.

have you played with dgb before?

In regards to #244, I find it fairly scummy to refuse to answer questions, even if you deem the asker as scum. I'm not sure why that devolved into a history of your past games with SC, as it feels to be an all-over the place reasoning for voting him. Additionally, your initial vote carried none of this with it.

if you read the entire sentence all the way through, you wld see that I gave pretty plausible reason to not respond. I wanted a meatier discussion with ckd and I think he did too that is why he made the statement that he did. our relationship has evolved.

I think if there is any buddying going on I think it is you who is kissing ckd's ass and not even bothering to read anybody else except on a surface level.

On your #244

1. You made a giant post that was nearly unintelligible to read or easy to follow. I planned to go back and try to make sense of it AFTER my huge catch up, but I'll take a look right now.

2. Other than describing the games in which you both played in #244, you never even stated an actual reason WHY SC could be scum. After that huge block of words, it comes down to your gut. That's it.

3. You are getting more and more overdefensive as people ask where you are coming from, or why your vote is going a certain direction when you give no real reason. Being condescending and stating things like "OMG I THINK HE IS SCUM FOR REAONS THAT MIGHT BE OUTSIDE OF YOUR EXPERIENCE" is not helpful to the town at all.

4. I want you to tell us why you think/thought SC is scum. What is it about his posts that made you vote for him? What kind of tone did you take from a particular post to give you that vibe? I don't want to see a history of every game you ever played with him as you deflect the question over and over. Scale down on the fluff and get to the point.

On the above

1. Why do you feel like I am making excuses for SC? I don't feel like I dismissed your case. I read it, and it was full of fluff and based off your gut, rather than actions within THIS game.

2. I paid attention to it, but I paid as much attention to it as I did every other post as I was catching up through 15+ pages of gameplay.

3. By DGB, I assume you mean DrippingGoofball?

4. It's never plausible to not respond, unless you've already stated the answer previously. In a game that requires questions AND answers, not answering isn't helpful. You aren't just answering a question for that person, but for everyone in the game.

Anyway, I haven't really played here that much, but I think townhunting is a perfectly valid and legitimate strategy, so long as it's done properly - real towntells are stronger than scumtells, and process of elimination works for weeding out scum. I'm used to smaller games but I think in a large game it's harder to bear down on specific people as scummy with so much to read. If you get some good townreads and lynch everyone who you're unsure of, you'll win. Assuming you pick them for good reasons, anyway.


I don't know that I necessarily agree with every townread that's been said but I want more to look at things myself rather than nitpick at a read I don't understand.

I can see that. I'm just particularly wary of folks who come out so quickly with a townreads list. It does help with the process of elimination for town, but I also feel that they are helping the scum by lining up which of the vocal villagers should be eliminated.

Anyways, back to the major catch up. I'll address mollie's ridiculousn self-defensiveness when I get through that.

yes. by all means plz point out how pointing out that you are skimming my posts is somehow "ridiculousn" self-defensiveness.

Heh, if you knew me at all, you'd know I wouldn't go anywhere near ckd's ass.

I bet you even tried to say this with a straight face.

Again, I'm not skimming your posts. I gave your posts as much time as I gave every other one, but yes, continue to throw shade because your assumptions are totally helpful.

And somehow, I randomly added an "N" on the end of "ridiculous."

Also, you obviously don't really know about my history with CKD or you wouldn't have made your initial statement.

Good to see your reasoning for the unvote in #374, though.

End of Page 15.

[Marquis]

Spoiler: starbuck's post 404

Starting at the top of Page 11...

Why am I not surprised at Marquis' swap to the SC wagon in #251? This guy just really seems to want a lynch, any lynch.

My gut is telling me that there's some kind of link between mollie and Marquis.

I'm also concerned with Marquis' statements that include "I'd probably say this if I was scum" and "this isn't me trying to excuse my wishywashy reads." It just doesn't sit right with me.



You know in the majority of all this back and forth, there's a severe lack of Reck.

I have zero qualms with Davsto votes. I like scoug more but this is some questionable inactivity from dav

Why do you like the votes? Just because of his inactivity? That's kinda shady.

Why is everyone dropping town reads? Thought this was an experienced group. It does us NO GOOD to do this. IF you really thought someone was town, telling everyone is good play becasue? It is like painting a fucking target. So why do it without anyone asking? I find, that scum do it a lot. Way of making friends…oh look..and you got 7 town reads based on jack shit. Welcome to my scum read.

This has been a question of mine, as well. I've already asked my question about it in a previous catch up post, so hopefully someone answered it between then and now. I don't see the point to do it as town.


So it takes bins' vote of SC to get Marquis to unvote SC. Interesting.

Are you high on turkey or something? You just made a stink about how you read the game and this major life event culminated in an SC vote. I'm asking why it ended in an SC vote vs all the other eligible bachelors/bachelorettes/attack helicopters we have ITT. And I'm getting back chinese fortune cookies for answers.

Ahh, this made me laugh pretty damn hard. I've missed you, Zito.

p-edit great googly moogly is this english

Not to insult anyone, but part of how long my catch up is taking is deciphering what others are trying to say.

@ ckd and starbuck

I think that what we are experiencing here is a bit of a site meta/join date/playstyle clash. marquis pointed this out earlier. 1 of the things that have changed is that pple are more fluid with their reads and are more likely to work with their townreads earlier in the game. both notty and marquis (and me, I just feel like I got lucky and hit the jackpot with sc, egg on my face if I am wrong) but i usually work from the townside out, which means I try to find town first and go from there. that is what they both normally do, so what they are doing is not unusual nor is it scummy, it just might be different from how you play, idk, I am just going off of what you guys have posted so far but there seems to be a bit of a whirlpool of misunderstanding going on. i know you both know this but different /=scummy. for some strange reason I felt like it needed to be said.

I don't necessarily feel that it's playstyle because it's coming off as forced to me. I could concede to playstyle differences if that factor wasn't there.

Trust me, I know that different does not equal scummy. I used to play on the View Askew board when that was in existence, and still play a game on Mafiastache every now and again. The playstyles between those two boards and MS are EXTREMELY different, especially since one real day = one game day in any of the ones that we play over there. So what I'm saying is, from the get go of me joining the original VA board in early 2009 and then joining over here later on in that year, I've been needing to adjust my playstyle depending on which message board that I am playing on.

In this case, it doesn't feel like a playstyle difference to me and the fact that you would try to display it as otherwise is suspect to me, and this subtle whiteknighting just adds to my feeling of some kind of connection between you and Marquis. I, truly, feel that (at least in the case of Marquis right now) that needing to talk about who is town, rather than who is scum, is forced and is a way for him to add content to the game without much substance.


Ending at the bottom of Page 14

on my play, @starbuck's 404 (i wrote this section second):

i like narrowing down the lynch pool by removing bad lynches. i don't like starting with blank lynchpools where players are thrown in because a few people find them scummy, even more so in games shaping out like this.

it's mostly because i see mafia as a game where everyone has a lot of bad scumreads early on. in contrast, town are inherently easier to find, and when town say or do things that are undeniably+genuinely town it's a lot easier to see. and molding my game around my townreads is usually how i perform the best, rather than centering in on a multitude of likely-inaccurate scumreads which will cause me to ignore more potentially important things

basically there's so many scummy-looking things town can do even just because you don't share the same point of view as them, but imo when players genuinely try to figure out the game or give uninhibited play, it's less likely they're scum with the capability of faking those kinds of town thought processes in the moment

i don't like talking about my "mafia philosophy" because it takes me an insane amount of time to try and word it in a way that's both
a) understandable to others, especially older or more "proper" players, and
b) less likely to make people laugh at me for being naive or dumb.

i really don't want to have to explain that in so many words again.

---

@end of starbuck's 404 (i wrote this section first, in like a minute after my previous post as an immediate reaction to the last quoteblock):

your last wordchunk pretty much amounts to "it's definitely just not a playstyle thing!" followed by "trying to solve the game starting with town is unnatural and what scum do!"

solving through townhunting, PoE, etc. is fairly common, and has been for as long as i remember on the site. call my townreads naive or whatever, i'm trying to get my bloc going.

it's getting to the point where you're just denying, denying, denying both {how anything mollie says could be right, how anything i say can't be scummy} so ~absolutely certainly~ that it's like, my ass is jammed on the fence between "she's scum trying to make this look like town with a genuine playstyle clash" and "she's actually town whose head is stuck in the ground because she's refusing to accept that she could be wrong about The Times a-Changin'!".

currently i'm leaning the former scenario (which is dumb because i'm now realizing i keep dragging myself into scumreads like this when i just want to revert back to my more successful PoE-oriented play), but it's so sad/ridiculous that i almost just want to close my eyes and throw you into a "don't even bother trying to sort" pile instead for my own sanity

also for everyone's sake you should probably stop anyway because i'm probably not getting lynched any time soon. people who've played with me before, whether or not they think i'm on point, should know well enough that this can't be anything other than my towngame

good night yall. will have my laptop after classes tomorrow

[Marquis]

i probably could have formatted that better. i hate walls and i know that's particularly hard to read. i'm working on it.

[Marquis]

for the record, i've been reading spiffeh's posts that've been popping up as i've been continuously saying that i need to read spiffeh (lol) and i'm maybe... 10% into him being town now? definitely not on the scum side of the spectrum atm, at least. nothing i'd bet on at all tho, and i still do want to reread his old stuff in context again

i've also just noticed starbuck keeps making post after post (like at least 5 of them on me by now) about how things i'm doing look "forced" or "concerning" or how they "just don't sit right with me" yet hasn't even voted me yet. not sure how to feel about that.

gnight for real now. vv

[Starbuck]

Why do you like the votes? Just because of his inactivity? That's kinda shady.

I'm not sure you know what the word inactivity means. His ISO isn't inactivity.

You didn't say ISO. You said inactivity.

I have zero qualms with Davsto votes. I like scoug more but this is some questionable inactivity from dav

You have no qualms with votes on Davsto, but you make it seem like Davsto is a better vote because of his inactivity. Why?

[Starbuck]

i probably could have formatted that better. i hate walls and i know that's particularly hard to read. i'm working on it.

Actually, that was perfect. Thanks for taking the time for a thorough explanation.

[Starbuck]

Additionally, I'll stop when I'm good and ready. I think it's too easy to blame my questioning on playstyle differences. Frankly, I think it's an excuse to discredit what I've said.

[Flameaxe]

Why do you like the votes? Just because of his inactivity? That's kinda shady.

I'm not sure you know what the word inactivity means. His ISO isn't inactivity.

You didn't say ISO. You said inactivity.

I have zero qualms with Davsto votes. I like scoug more but this is some questionable inactivity from dav

You have no qualms with votes on Davsto, but you make it seem like Davsto is a better vote because of his inactivity. Why?

Okay so you're an idiot. Got it. I never said anything about Davsto being a better vote, if that was the case, wouldn't my vote be different? Did you leave your common sense at the door or what? Arguing ISO vs not ISO is idiotic. He's posting and doing fuck-all actively.

Go start a semantics pissing contest somewhere else.

[Starbuck]

Why do you like the votes? Just because of his inactivity? That's kinda shady.

I'm not sure you know what the word inactivity means. His ISO isn't inactivity.

You didn't say ISO. You said inactivity.

I have zero qualms with Davsto votes. I like scoug more but this is some questionable inactivity from dav

You have no qualms with votes on Davsto, but you make it seem like Davsto is a better vote because of his inactivity. Why?

Okay so you're an idiot. Got it. I never said anything about Davsto being a better vote, if that was the case, wouldn't my vote be different? Did you leave your common sense at the door or what? Arguing ISO vs not ISO is idiotic. He's posting and doing fuck-all actively.

Go start a semantics pissing contest somewhere else.

I'm not quite sure where this hostility came from. I was uncertain of what you meant and asked for further explanation.

I'm wasn't all that sure what you were trying to say by "His ISO isn't inactivity." If my above interpretation is wrong, tell me why it is wrong. Don't insult me because I didn't understand what you are trying to say. There's no reason for the nastiness.

[Flameaxe]

k

[Starbuck]

And seriously, where the seven hells is Reck? You've got to have some input at this point, love.

[Starbuck]

k

I've heard good things about you, and was genuinely asking for further explanation. I didn't expect you to take my head off in that fashion for requesting a simple explanation. Kinda shitty in all actuality.

[Flameaxe]

[curiouskarmadog]

and yes I wld like to discuss game theory postgame altho i feel like some things are kind of relevant to what's going on now. my approach is going to be to build town cohesion early,

I mean if you feeling like you need to understand where I am coming from, i can type out exactly WHY I feel this way. Rather save it for endgame, because I think a back and forth about game theory will clog up the game. At the end of the day the results will either be an arguement this is why you are wrong or a I see your point. Neither will result in finding scum. I will say I think you are genuine in your belief that provide town tells is a good thing. But I really....really dont think it is.

I could provide a couple recent games (time permitting) how I caught scum (or helped catch scum) and one of my points were "they are providing town tells for no reason"...

[curiouskarmadog]

I see.

Do you think ckd attacking me over sharing townreads feels genuine? Because that sounds like one of those fake reasons to scumread someone and I understand different times are different and it could be a playstyle clash, but I think his push on me is really weird especially considering you asked for them.

Ckd, you realize Mollie asked about ny townreads a few posts before, correct?

clearly I didnt. what post number?

what was that post number again?

Also, did you meta me to see if I actually believe this ?

[curiouskarmadog]

I've heard complaints like that before yes mollie but it just sounded off in my head which is why i brought it up.

I'm currently leaning towards you being town.
.

LOL....so many friends.

[curiouskarmadog]

shooting Nex?

uh

what, in your opinion has Nexus been like a paragon of towniness or something?

Null..

but if we are directing vigs...there are so many other more scummier people.