A Musical Mafia! (Game over)

[True Ogre]

Why do you think I started the wagon Cakez.

[Axelrod]

Ranger: davesaz, Amihan, Mirhawk, Spiffeh, Sakura Hana, beeboy, Friendless Seniors, podoboq, SirCakez, THE WRONG LYNCH, SnarkySnowman (11)

First Vote

: davesaz @ #1419: I don't have any real issues with this vote. He's comparing Ranger's entrance into this game with a game where Ranger was scum and finding similarities. And, while that's not great as a reason to vote, it's not horrendous, certainly not as an early vote. He's not declaring Ranger scum because of it. And he's also doing a bit more than just the meta thing, disagreeing with Ranger's reads and pointing out that Ranger's top scum suspects just happened to align with the people the Town was already looking at. So, there's nothing particularly suspicious about this vote.

What's a little less great is how dave kind of cruises into the end of day sitting on this vote. There was a real frenzy towards the end of the day, and dave kind of stayed above the fray. The big counter-wagon, FS, he barely comments on. There's a very random remark about being willing to vote TicTac after having barely commented on him as well.

I also don't love his opening post of this day where he says:

Hmm, I was wrong on Ranger, right on Tammy, can use Spiffeh's flip to improve my ability to read him.

Mainly because dave never gave a real opinion on Tammy. His last mention of Tammy the day before was #1427 where he said his read was "stale" but the last he "remembered" it was Town. And going back before that there's not much of anything. And the fact that Ranger was reading Tammy as Town too quickly seemed to be one of dave's big points against him. So that's at least somewhat inconsistent.

All that said, there's no smoking guns here.

[podoboq]

Well I really hate this. That thing I said about focusing your scumhunting elsewhere....yeah.

I didn't really understand what you were driving at here; this was a response to Errant's push on Axel in response to his push on him. What about focusing scum hunting elsewhere and why is it scummy?

One of the things I was scumreading from FS early on was their tunnelvision on players who were scumreading them. So when FS went from reading Axel positively to negatively the second Axel scumreads them (for valid reasons), it set off a red light for me.

I think players should be able to scumhunt slots that AREN'T engaging with them, and FS wasn't showing the capacity to do that. This has changed over that last 1000+ posts.

[Axelrod]

Ranger: davesaz, Amihan, Mirhawk, Spiffeh, Sakura Hana, beeboy, Friendless Seniors, podoboq, SirCakez, THE WRONG LYNCH, SnarkySnowman (11)

Second Vote

: Amihan @ #1649. This post just says that if Skybird isn't happening then Ranger is "the way to go." So we have to look back to see what Amihan was saying before this. Ranger replaced in @ #1174. Ranger replaced Swordsworth. Pretty sure Ami said nothing about Swordsworth (not that there was much to say).

Ami's first comment about Ranger was when she alt-slipped in #1348. Says she is "scumreading the hell out of Ranger's entrance and progression." So that's all consistent. Indicates willingness to vote Ranger as early as #1354. Doesn't say

why

she's scum-reading Ranger, which is a bit unfortunate. Then, in #1355 basically says she's barning Mirhawk's reasons for not liking Ranger's entrance. That would be post #1341. Where Mirhawk complains that Ranger is laying out too many too solid reads with little to no justification, and that it seemed convenient that Ranger's scum reads happened to be on the two biggest wagons of the day. Ami also adds that Ranger's catch-up felt "artificial."

I don't have any real issues with this vote either. After the vote, Ami's also very consistent, pushing for the Ranger lynch. She doesn't really comment at all on FS, which is maybe a little troublesome. In #2017 she wonders why people are going back to a "dumb, default" lynch, but I've never seen her express an opinion one way of the other about what she actually thinks of FS, which is a little unusual given how much FS has been discussed. That's my only flag on Ami so far. Otherwise she's been pretty consistent on Skybird.

[davesaz]

VOTE: dramonic
Back to my windmill for now. Though I doubt it will result in him talking.

[Axelrod]

Ranger: davesaz, Amihan, Mirhawk, Spiffeh, Sakura Hana, beeboy, Friendless Seniors, podoboq, SirCakez, THE WRONG LYNCH, SnarkySnowman (11)

Third Vote:

Mirhawk @ #1748. This is another case of the vote coming well after Mirhawk's issues with Ranger had already been laid out. As noted above, Mirhawk expressed dislike for Ranger as early as #1341. He was voting Skybird then, and stayed on Skybird at the time. I believe Mirhawk was also responding to Ranger's statement that the only two viable wagons were Mirhawk's and FS (which was clearly wrong). Mirhawk actually changed his vote to SirCakes prior to voting Ranger (during a time when there was maybe a tiny bit of momentum towards a Cakes wagon), but that didn't last very long, and I think the Cakes suspicion was/is justified anyway.

I've been mostly a Mirhawk fan this game and this isn't changing my opinion.

Fourth Vote

: Spiffeh @ #1830. Spiffeh was Town.

[Marquis]

I claimed an investigative role. I didn't get the result I expected.

Why are you finding wagons building and dissolving funny? Is this generally your attitude as town?

Why did you investigate a claimed miller?

Why is it so important that I re-explain an already-detailed case on a player for whom the situation has not changed or improved at all? It's not the full case, but I and other players keep noting how her play consists of transparently empty questioning, peppered with excuses for it when called out.

Also, why are you so... serious? I don't think there's anything helpful in that comment to Mirhawk; it just feels unnecessarily rude. But then you made a snarky comment to me so at least I know you have a sense of humor, if reserved for yourself.

[Axelrod]

Ranger: davesaz, Amihan, Mirhawk, Spiffeh, Sakura Hana, beeboy, Friendless Seniors, podoboq, SirCakez, THE WRONG LYNCH, SnarkySnowman (11)

Fifth Vote

: Sakura Hana @ #1872. All right, HERE's one worth looking harder at. Sakura Hana is shamelessly waggoning here. Zero justification. Even makes it sound like she's not paying any attention at all to the game "I've been playing Tree of Savior." If you look back, #1854, and #1857, Sakura is saying she doesn't even know why people are voting for Ranger. Back in #1338, Sakura said she thought Ranger was TOWN. So, what changed? There is

no

explanation beyond, people are telling her to vote for Ranger so she's just going to do it....This one could

easily

be a scum vote.

Caveat

: The only problem with this, and with basically every vote after this, is the reality that we were facing an impending deadline. And Spiffeh (among others?) was pushing people

very

hard to vote for Ranger. That is going to muddy the situation for all these later votes.

[Axelrod]

Ranger: davesaz, Amihan, Mirhawk, Spiffeh, Sakura Hana, beeboy, Friendless Seniors, podoboq, SirCakez, THE WRONG LYNCH, SnarkySnowman (11)

Sixth Vote:

beeboy @ #1955. No reason given here, beeboy is basically cow-towing to Spiffeh's will, it appears. Though if you look back, beeboy did vote Ranger earlier in #1640, and had Ranger listed under "Must be Scum" in #1450, so the vote is still very consistent. Beeboy was essentially flip-flopping between FS and Ranger at the end of the day. I've generally liked beeboy this game, even though he's been a bit flighty. And I don't think there's anything suspicious about this vote given where we were at the time.

[Skybird]

Announcement: pistachi0n is town-aligned.

UNVOTE: pistachion

[Axelrod]

Ranger: davesaz, Amihan, Mirhawk, Spiffeh, Sakura Hana, beeboy, Friendless Seniors, podoboq, SirCakez, THE WRONG LYNCH, SnarkySnowman (11)

Seventh Vote:

Friendless Seniors @ #2102. It's not a secret that I have not been a FS fan this game, but this vote also isn't doing anything to change my opinion. FS was all over the place at the end of the day yesterday, basically in "anyone but him" mode. I"m pretty sure he was voting me up until #1704, when he switched to Ranger (for the first time?) That would have been the third vote at the time, I think, after davesaz and Amihan. After that, he would go back and forth between Ranger and TicTac, while also expressing the opinion that LOTS of other people were also scum. SirCakez, me (again), Cerberus, also mentioned Tammy, davesaz, "potentially" Pied Piper. And as I have noted before, basically anyone who said they were suspicious of him.

He also tried to misrepresent the argument against him when he stated "do you think I'd fakeclaim fruit vendor?" and "fruit vendor is a shitty role to fakeclaim because of paranoia," when I don't think anyone was suggesting that the role wasn't "real", only that it could easily be a scum role.

Friendless Seniors could definitely still be scum.

[Axelrod]

Ranger: davesaz, Amihan, Mirhawk, Spiffeh, Sakura Hana, beeboy, Friendless Seniors, podoboq, SirCakez, THE WRONG LYNCH, SnarkySnowman (11)

Eighth Vote

: podoboq @ #2123. This one is another "deadline" decision. I think podo was voting for FS prior to this, and had even expressed the opinion that Ranger looked Town, but it appears FS's spamming up the thread in the very final hours of the day caused him enough doubt to get podo to come off him, and switch to the wagon with more traction. He still says he's willing to switch back if need be, and emphasizes that what he really doesn't want is a No Lynch. None of that is terrible, and I can definitely see it coming from a Town mindset. Most of podo's stuff is just very reasoned and reasonable.

[Sakura Hana]

I was wondering when i was going to be engaged but...

Ranger: davesaz, Amihan, Mirhawk, Spiffeh, Sakura Hana, beeboy, Friendless Seniors, podoboq, SirCakez, THE WRONG LYNCH, SnarkySnowman (11)

Fifth Vote

: Sakura Hana @ #1872. All right, HERE's one worth looking harder at. Sakura Hana is shamelessly waggoning here. Zero justification. Even makes it sound like she's not paying any attention at all to the game "I've been playing Tree of Savior." If you look back, #1854, and #1857, Sakura is saying she doesn't even know why people are voting for Ranger. Back in #1338, Sakura said she thought Ranger was TOWN. So, what changed? There is

no

explanation beyond, people are telling her to vote for Ranger so she's just going to do it....This one could

easily

be a scum vote.

Why is it scummy of me to switch my vote to Ranger after reading Spiffeh's "not very long case" on his ISO? Why do you think i can't change a read of mine from a null town to scum? And more importantly, why do you have an issue with my vote NOW as opposed to earlier in the day?

[Axelrod]

Ranger: davesaz, Amihan, Mirhawk, Spiffeh, Sakura Hana, beeboy, Friendless Seniors, podoboq, SirCakez, THE WRONG LYNCH, SnarkySnowman (11)

Ninth Vote

: SirCakez @ #2161. Egh. One day earlier, SirCakez made This post on "Why I think Ranger is Town." I believe Cakez was voting Mirhawk for a long time - then made cases against Seniors and Mirhawk in posts #1769, #1774, but actually switched to voting TicTac in #1784.

I don't like how, when the choice appeared to be between Mirhawk and FS, he picked Mirhawk (while still agreeing that FS looked bad). But when it looked like it was between FS and Ranger, he's defending Ranger and voting TicTac. Then, TicTac being a non-starter, goes back to Mirhawk. Finally jumps the Ranger wagon at the end, all the while never having voted for FS. I don't see any indication from Cakez posting that he thought FS ever looked Town, but it does look like he was giving the Fruit Vendor thing a lot of weight? Kept saying he couldn't remember a game (or only knew one game) with a scum Fruit Vendor in it. He asked people if they know of other games, like he was keeping that possibility open, but when (I think PP) pulled out a large list of games, Cakez had essentially no comment.

Also don't like how he was already lining up today's lynches in anticipation that Ranger was going to flip Town yesterday. And opened today with his "This is who Spiffeh didn't like so clearly we should lynch one of these people...." post.

So, yeah.

[Axelrod]

Ranger: davesaz, Amihan, Mirhawk, Spiffeh, Sakura Hana, beeboy, Friendless Seniors, podoboq, SirCakez, THE WRONG LYNCH, SnarkySnowman (11)

Tenth Vote:

TWL @ #2310. "Just cuz I need to go." Not the greatest, but we were just hours from the deadline, and some people were freaking out, I think. Looking back, TWL had her vote parked on Mirhawk for essentially the entirety of D1. From all the way back in #396, based on his reaction to the "fake" miller counterclaim. Didn't even seem like that strong of a vote at the time, but it was never unvoted or moved. Frankly, there's not a lot going on with TWL this whole game. Not much scum-hunting at all, no strong reads, a lot of work/life excuses (which could be true, but it certainly doesn't help).

It's definitely possible scum slot.

Eleventh

vote was Snarky, who was Town.

And I'm done, and going to take a break. The worst votes here are Sakura, FS, Cakez, and TWL.

[dramonic]

look at that scum wagon, what an unexpected result!~
Can we PLEASE get our heads out of our ass and lynch some scum?
Three easy options: Axel, Podo, Davestaz (or however it's spelled).
I mean fuck, look at that "wagon analysis" and tell me it's town. Do it.

[davesaz]

Oh, look, it's a post of more than 2 words. Problem is, hindsight is good but it doesn't do anything to help with reading you.
One of your scum reads is wrong. Not sure about the other two.

I too have an issue with the "wagon analysis". Tell us why you have a problem with it.

[SirCakez]

Announcement: pistachi0n is town-aligned.

UNVOTE: pistachion

VOTE: Skybird

[Axelrod]

Axel - what's your huge objection to NKA? It definitely has uses.

My objection is that it doesn't work. At least, not the kind of NKA that goes "scum killed X, so, therefore, the scum are probably the people who X did not like..." While sometimes that ends up partly being true (and, I mean, in that group of three people you threw out there, I actually agree that TicTac and TWL

could

be scum), what I've found more often than not is that the scum killing who they kill ends up having nothing to do with anything you would think about. There are all sorts of possible reasons, up to, and including, literally flipping a coin, that I have seen. And then the scum love to have Town running in circles trying to guess why they did what they did. It's just not a productive line of inquiry.

[davesaz]

Announcement: pistachi0n is town-aligned.

UNVOTE: pistachion

VOTE: Skybird

Umm, why is that worthy of a vote?

[SirCakez]

Because literally the only thing she did was pop in, unvote and leave. No comment at all on Pist being IC or how shifty that wagon was.

[Mirhawk]

I claimed an investigative role. I didn't get the result I expected.

Why are you finding wagons building and dissolving funny? Is this generally your attitude as town?

I found the speed with which Pistachion shut the wagon down amusing.

I think I'm more relaxed as town then as scum, so sure I guess. Personally I find myself to have too much of a stick up my butt as scum to find anything funny. This is also (for the record) a silly question. If I was scum I wouldn't answer it honestly anyways.

The reason I ask about your role is that the only thing that makes sense to me is a rolecop. But if that was the case why would you have drug him out into admitting his role in front of everyone.

[Axelrod]

I was wondering when i was going to be engaged but...

Ranger: davesaz, Amihan, Mirhawk, Spiffeh, Sakura Hana, beeboy, Friendless Seniors, podoboq, SirCakez, THE WRONG LYNCH, SnarkySnowman (11)

Fifth Vote

: Sakura Hana @ #1872. All right, HERE's one worth looking harder at. Sakura Hana is shamelessly waggoning here. Zero justification. Even makes it sound like she's not paying any attention at all to the game "I've been playing Tree of Savior." If you look back, #1854, and #1857, Sakura is saying she doesn't even know why people are voting for Ranger. Back in #1338, Sakura said she thought Ranger was TOWN. So, what changed? There is

no

explanation beyond, people are telling her to vote for Ranger so she's just going to do it....This one could

easily

be a scum vote.

Why is it scummy of me to switch my vote to Ranger after reading Spiffeh's "not very long case" on his ISO? Why do you think i can't change a read of mine from a null town to scum? And more importantly, why do you have an issue with my vote NOW as opposed to earlier in the day?

Dude, at what point did you read Spiffeh's "not very long case?" You certainly never mentioned that. And at what point did you change your read from "null town to scum?" You didn't mention that either. For all the world it appeared that you just voted Ranger because people told you to vote Ranger, and you didn't even know why they were telling you to. You dispute that? Your vote in no way indicated a "change of read." I kind of assumed you were going to say "deadline", but you're saying that actually wasn't it?

I'm bringing it up

now

because I'm just looking at these votes closely now.

[davesaz]

Because literally the only thing she did was pop in, unvote and leave. No comment at all on Pist being IC or how shifty that wagon was.

I believe quoting the mod counts as commenting on it. And disagree that the wagon was shifty. Ogre told us that pistaschi0n was lying, and we wagoned her. That's what you do to liars. Dismantling it when it turns out she was town is what you do too.

[SirCakez]

Like with words! Not just unvoting.