Open 644: Stack the Deck - Game Over

[Dunnstral]

Alright Ranger you seem to have some experience with Karnos and you're saying you think he is town, and are pointing to a bunch of examples

Now here's the big question: Why didn't you point out these reasons 200+ posts ago? Why wait so long to provide content and let your town read get pushed on

I get that you're going to say "oh so people would push on him!" but all of your scum reads right now read as omgus and chainsaw defense

[Dunnstral]

Just skimming and without reading the rest of your post (or cheating), first link is town, second link is mafia?

This would have meant something if, as instructed, you said which his play was closer to: the first, or the second.

Guess I messed that up then. But I don't see why I can't still go back and check

[Dunnstral]

This is why he's town. He's doing his own thing, and doing it very, very well.

He's got like 8 posts lmao come on

[Dunnstral]

Ranger I'm interested in your reasoning for why Florestan is town

[Dunnstral]

Just skimming and without reading the rest of your post (or cheating), first link is town, second link is mafia?

This would have meant something if, as instructed, you said which his play was closer to: the first, or the second.

Guess I messed that up then. But I don't see why I can't still go back and check

He doesn't look the same as his town game at all...

[Ranger]

I'm going to skip Chip Butty unless there's actually a serious need for it. I believe he's mostly townread. I mean, I could share

my

reasons for townreading him, but not much of a point doing so when everyone is townreading him.

Instead, the reason Florestan immediately became a townread is because of 20: THIS is a reason why ploben became a scumread. I liked the follow-through in 24 as well. 52 was an excellent vote, following through and making a valid point about ploben. I also like the tone behind 80: this isn't scum trying to be helpful without being helpful (I'll show you an example of

that

later!), this is town annoyed and calling people out. I also like 84. 163 is a fairly decent first-time encounter with me, but I really liked 165. Florestan themselves points out how the effort behind 284 was town, but some particular highlights include the BTD6 read and the ploben read. 368 and 403 also read as town ways to handle their vote. Then, we get 451, which is an excellent question.

All-in-all, Florestan is really, really town, even if Florestan's current reads kind-of suck.

[Ranger]

Now here's the big question: Why didn't you point out these reasons 200+ posts ago? Why wait so long to provide content and let your town read get pushed on

What, was there going to be a quicklynch?

Yeah, thought not.

karnos never got to L-1. The highest his wagon ever got was L-2.

Believe me, I was monitoring it.

I held off on giving content for the obvious reason: the longer I held off on explaining my karnos read, the better information I could get on all players outside of karnos, be it town or scum. This is self-explanatory.

but all of your scum reads right now read as omgus and chainsaw defense

My ploben scumread has existed ever since I entered the game.
Not omgus, not chainsaw.
My scumread on you has existed ever since I entered the game.
Not omgus, maybe a biiiiiiiiiiiit of a chainsaw, given it relies a bit on your interactions with ploben.
The only scumread you could call omgus is on PantherPunt, but I explained VERY clearly why PantherPunt should

not

have that scumread on me if he were town. In short, the omgus is justified because there's no world where PantherPunt, after our last game together, legitimately views me as scum this game. Also, if anything, HE is the one doing the chainsaw...of you and ploben, more specifically.

[Dunnstral]

OK so I'm seeing a believable case for Karnos being town but I disagree with the stuff on Florestan indicating he's town

[Ranger]

Anyway, duppin and BTD6 are both nulltown on my list: I vaguely like what they've given (in spite of karnos's point against BTD6), but I don't see anything that's undeniably town.
Scott Brosius and Alpaca are both nullscum. For Scott, it's because he really hasn't done anything, except hop opportunistically onto the karnos wagon. I didn't like 216: his treatment of ploben, not explaining his commentary, but 257

does

mitigate this: he's going after someone there's virtually zero chance of lynching. That's not a move scum often make. But this goes back in 433: his reason for believing Chip Butty comes off as contrived. I don't like any of his reads, or how he slides back onto the karnos wagon. The main reason he's not a stronger scumread is because the other players I'm just scumreading

that

much stronger. Aside from his equal...

Alpaca. As noted, 110 was defending ploben, without taking a hard stance. It was just dropped there, without Alpaca actually

doing

anything.
For people saying I've done nothing but defend myself, they're utter hypocrites if they haven't noticed that Alpaca was doing basically the same thing, which you can see in 270. More defense in 273. 281 is worthless, and 304 is more defense.

The closest thing Alpaca has, even remotely, to content?

283. Asking me about ploben. Who is still my strongest scumread.

All-in-all: there's basically nothing town there. At all. Once more, the only reason he's that high is because of the others, who are lower.

[Dunnstral]

Also like I said this doesn't look like his Karnos' town game to me from those links so maybe I had to be there or something

[Ranger]

I

could

make the three scum cases now, but I actually think that I'll hold off for a bit.

I think there's more to be gained in waiting on those than there is for me to lay out everything right now.

[Shadow_step]

This post is weirdly defensive. I never attacked you I simply asked BTD why he was voting Karnos if he thought you were scummier. The game has been open for just a few days so his statement that a vote on Chip won't go anywhere is curious since there is plenty of time left. I really didn't have much of an opinion on you until this post that seems a little too reactionary for me not even suspecting you.

There is no believing or not believing the IC claim. It is a mod-confirmed role. You don't get towncred by claiming it, you are either mod-confirmed town or not mod-confirmed town. Regardless, this IC semantics discussion has been distracting but gave us a nice jumpoff point for actual content.

As for my posting, I was gone over the weekend and read up last night. Instead of making an assumption based on a post number, read the flow of the game.

Saying I'm siding with ploben against you and karnos is also a misrep (karnos yes, you no). As I previously said in this post I didn't have an opinion on you until this post (you can go back and check all 2 of my posts), but now that you are overreacting, I'm feeling more confident in this vote.

Unvote
Vote: Chip Butty

1. Maybe I did overreact a bit, but there has been a lot of "Oh look at karnos and Chip going after ploben when he was just joking" without suggesting better leads to follow, and it is getting a little frustrating. Like I said to someone before, show me a better lead, with supporting reasons, and I'll look seriously at it. In the meantime, ploben is the best we have, especially given his multiple reactions to the accusations against him.

2. I read your response to BDS as sounding out support for a wagon on me and even egging him on a bit (i.e."It's early in the day, there is still time to make it work" [paraphrase]). If that isn't what was intended, see (1.) above...

Eh I'll buy your explanation.

Unvote

My reads. I'd rather not post this, but I have to admit it looks like I might get lynched, best to get the information out so that town can gain something from my death.

My confidence in my vote here grows.

Vote: karnos

Florestan's comment about unvoting if Karnos gets to L-1 due to "not trusting this town" and the current move of the vote off Karnos is something to note if Karnos flips scum. First place to look.

Not liking shadow who planted his vote on a useless wagon when ignoring wagons and content that are actually happening. Not suggesting Alpaca is town either, but it could be an avoidance scum strategy. Said one brief thing about karnos, nothing about ploben and is looking cautious.

This post roughly translates to "Get off my scum buddy."
Stating maybe could be should be crap. If you don't like me vote me.

I've already said(agreed rather) that the whole Karnos vs Ploben could be town v town.
The fake claiming IC as a scum gambit is way too risky for some town creds which would evaporate very quickly.
So if there is scum between both of them, its likely to be karnos rather than ploben.

[Dunnstral]

I can understand waiting for your read on Panther, and maybe even me

What is there to gain on waiting on ploben? He's a leading wagon and the topic of discussion for basically all of the day

Additionally me and ploben have enough content that it's just silly to keep waiting instead of just giving your reads so we can move forward

[Dunnstral]

Shadow what do you think of... well, the game?

Have you read up or have you skimmed or something? What are your thoughts right now

[Dunnstral]

Though to be a hypocrite to post 487 I want to wait for Panther + Florestan to chime in before I say anything else about Ranger

[Ranger]

What is there to gain on waiting on ploben? He's a leading wagon and the topic of discussion for basically all of the day

It's for that very reason that I should hold back on him longer than anyone else actually.

He

has

a wagon there, without me explaining. He IS a subject of discussion. So waiting on him is more beneficial than waiting on any other player.

[Shadow_step]

@Shadow
Alpaca could possibly be the lurking scum this game. You seemed to be convinced about Karnos with the invite unvote event. Is the Alpaca case stronger in your mind or is there something else that's pushing you to vote Alpaca?

Case on Alpaca is stronger I feel. Regardless I want the lynch to be between Alpaca and Karnos today. So more votes on Alp would be good.

Except your case is just that, since I am defending Ploben I have to be scum who knows that he's town cause otherwise why would I possibly want to defend him. Could it possibly be that I think he is town and I'm town? Is it possible that I am capable of holding my own opinions whether or not they line up with yours? Why yes it is. I genuinely thought that he was town at the time and when he said it was a reaction test it reminded me of the Slayer's Gambit which I had read on the wiki recently and so I posted a link to show that it is possible that he is doing what he is doing from a town mindset.

I would have given this explanation the slightest consideration had you been asking questions(scumhunting basically). All you have done is pop up to defend yourself.

You don't need to scumhunt because you know everyone's alignment, you are scum.

[Shadow_step]

Shadow what do you think of... well, the game?

Have you read up or have you skimmed or something? What are your thoughts right now

Honestly, I hate reading meaningless wall posts explaining RVS.
My reads

Scum - Alpaca
Scum lean - Scott, Florestan
Null scum - Karnos
Null town - ploben, duppin, panther

Everyone else is null for me

[Shadow_step]

Working on a wall but I will say that if Karnos gets put to L-1 I am unvoting because I don't trust this town.

This is scummy as hell. Saying in advance that you will unvote Karnos if anyone puts him on l-1.
If you think Karnos is town why do you care if he gets Lynched?
If it bothers you so much then why vote him which enables him to be put on l-1?

It all looks fake concerned townie to me.

[Shadow_step]

Ebwop

Working on a wall but I will say that if Karnos gets put to L-1 I am unvoting because I don't trust this town.

This is scummy as hell. Saying in advance that you will unvote Karnos if anyone puts him on l-1.
If you think Karnos is scum why do you care if he gets Lynched?
If it bothers you so much then why vote him which enables him to be put on l-1?

It all looks fake concerned townie to me.

[Dunnstral]

Everyone else is null for me

You really didn't get a read on Me, Chip Butty, or Ranger?

Man scott's got like 4 posts and ou have him as a scumlean because you disagreed with him once

[Chip Butty]

I think we need to look harder at duppin, who has basically acted as ploben's wingman for the entire game.

duppin ISO:
10, 11: Votes karnos. Looks like an RVS random vote at this point, right?
27: Blows off the early interest in ploben, introduces the "joke defense". Urges the game to vote karnos. Why? Why not just go with the ploben vote? But, not hugely significant in itself.
36: Repeats the "joke defense" of ploben.
40: In response to my question why he wants us to vote karnos, admits he has "absolutely no reason at all".
103: Elaborates on the "joke defense". Questions the scum motive of ploben's IC "claim" to cat doubt on its scumminess. Questions Dunstrall's townread of me.
106: Questions ploben about his "reaction test defense". COULD be read as "Hey what are you doing, dude? I thought we were going with the joke defense?" but, yeah, that interpretation is optional.
112, 115: Asks for, and receives, a link to a completed game in which I was scum. Was this exchange really necessary? Why not just go to my profile and link to my games from there? Could be just laziness OR is could be a display of "Yeah, I'm so scumhunting. See? You can see me looking into stuff, and stuff." And is this his standard research method? I mean, it kind of sucks if genuine, because it leaves me free to link to whatever games best serve my purpose. Like, if I was scum, I would link to a game wherein I was posting in a similar style and was Town, and maybe to a game in which I played very differently, and was scum. Looks more likely to me to be here for display purposes.

Continued in Part 2...

[ploben]

Spoiler: This is Karnos

but why is it scum flailing rather than town flailing.

I guess the only real reason I have is because of the ridiculous push on me for RVS statements. Florestan, your question prompted me to really stop and reconsider. I mean, I would be a hypocrite to not take my own advice...

My feeling is if Chip is town he would seriously look back and maybe reconsider this whole case on me. Town doesn't have perfect info so town's game needs to be a game of reconsideration.

I think I was very hasty in posting 443.

I have to go back and reconsider a point I think is a good one...

Another paranoid thought:
If this is all just town vs town vs town vs town and mafia have daytalk they are sitting there saying "Don't jump in the middle of this and create associations, let town eat themselves alive here"

Also, after reading Ranger's posts this morning I have to reiterate...

Eitherwho...Meta is crap, whether you scum hunt with meta or use it as a defense. Players who are aware of meta can obviously change it to project whatever they want.

But I do have a sense of relief, as Ranger's posts have a stink of arrogance and self-righteousness, but I know she is wrong about me so I smile. Time to come back down to earth Ranger.

[Chip Butty]

duppen ISO - part 2:

113: Continues his discussion of my read with Dunstrall. Looks like two scum who don't have daytalk trying to arrive at a consenus of how they will play me. Looks like they're going for "Town".
191: duppen and Dunstrall in convo again, this time on karnos. Now it looks like they are trying to reach consensus on whether they are going to go after karnos. Reiterates the joke defense yet again. duppen says this about karnos: "I think the reason for the push on ploben is ridiculous. This doesn't even have anything to do with my read on him" - Yeah, except you haven't posted a read on him. Then duppin gives ploben a pass on his awful #117, wherein he tries to stitch together the joke defense and the reaction test defense. Just to round out the post, he criticizes Ranger's readlist - specifically, surprise surprise, the low placings on ploben and Dunstrall.
193: Criticizes the wagon on ploben yet again. Says there is scum on that wagon - me, karnos, Florestan. Guess who he nominates? Yes, it WAS karnos! Says he is slight Townreading me - why? Because Dunstrall told you to? Gives no reason to pick karnos over Florestan.
194, 199, 205: In response to me noting strong associations between ploben, Dunstrall, and duppin, fixates on whether I think Mafia recruited their traitor, but in such a way that it looks like he is trying to trap me into saying something he can use against me later. Tries to put words in my mouth.
197: Again defends ploben's 117. AGAIN trots out the joke defense. Seriously, if he isn't ploben's scumbuddy, why is he so fixated on defending ploben. It's not as if he was in danger of quicklynch.
204: More of the same.
313: Responds to karnos reading him as scummy. Says karnos' reads are OMGUS. Says his reads generally are "questionable". Questions karnos' "strong Town read" of Ranger. Tone is okay; Not too much in this in itself, but as part of his general pattern of "Attack karnos, defend ploben/Dunstrall", it starts to look significant.
314: Exchange with Ranger, who promised to explain her low read of Dunstrall at a later point. Says the read "concerns" him. And, yes, slides in an oblique ref to the joke defense.
319: Questions karnos scummy reading of BTD. Why? I'm surprised you have to ask. Because he is defending ploben, of course (he says karnos should read ploben as Town, given his read on BTD).
321: Deja vu from 193.
322: Again questions karnos' strong Townread of Ranger.

Continued in part 3...

[duppin]

It's funny that people keep on thinking this is the reason why I'm scumreading ploben.

No but that's the thing though, there was no way you thought that was a legit IC claim, so I was curious as to why you were scumreading him. It seemed more like you just trying to get behind an easy wagon (assuming town flip). I feel a bit better about your slot now though, after your last couple of posts. Still bothers me our reads seem so different though.

@Chip, everyone already knows you think me and ploben could be scumbuddies, but you'd be wrong. Would you like me to respond to all of your points or are you just sharing your thoughts?

In any case, I'm starting to come around on Karnos. My initial impression was that he was frustrated scum, who felt like he was getting scumread for the wrong reasons but the more I talked to him I get the feeling he is just a fairly inexperienced player, which explains his thought process. I still find him rather suspicious, but we still have a lot of time and I see no reason to limit ourself to only two targets.

To be more specific I'd really like to hear from Alpaca. Scumreads? You still don't have a vote out and I honestly have no idea where you're currently at.