Micro 960: A Year of Miccros II - Game Over

[lilith2013]

I don’t think I noticed it until rereading this morning, the lack of aldus read bothered me more

[lilith2013]

Okay, so what info did you get from leaning into that narrative?

[lilith2013]

Can I get a show of hands of who would be willing to vote for duck?

[lilith2013]

afaik duck just said that you were his top two scumreads and it wasn’t through associatives per se

Is the pooky thing pushing him more towards town or scum for you?

[lilith2013]

When you say there might be scum in the townreads, who exactly do you think it could be?

[lilith2013]

And does that change your read on duck slot or no?

[lilith2013]

(should be read as an addendum to my previous post, not a response to yours)

[lilith2013]

Hi raven!

[lilith2013]

VOTE: skitter

[lilith2013]

UNVOTE:

I'm just talking myself in circles at this point

[lilith2013]

I think I need a flip to progress further (pending raven's full catchup)

[lilith2013]

duck immediately voting you makes me feel better about it not being duck/skitter team, at least

[lilith2013]

if I had to put people in tiers they would be something like

{SS}
{Datisi, dsjstr}
{pooky}
{bugspray, duck, skitter} <— null
{aldus}

I'm here except aldus is now in the null tier

[lilith2013]

i feel like, exasperated-adjacent coming back to you systematically shading me & posting without attempting to advance the gamestate. i'm legitimately surprised more people aren't seeing this

er.. is this to me?

[lilith2013]

i feel like i have a p good grasp on the gamestate tho

Didn't you just say that the game felt Not Right that everyone was POEing down to the same people and that there's probably scum in the townreads?

[lilith2013]

I don't really think you're both town but also I would hate myself for pushing through an execution on town!skitter or town!duck

[lilith2013]

Does someone else have an opinion on duck/skitter that can maybe like, help unfog my brain

[lilith2013]

someone

else

[lilith2013]

Oh good ss is here to save me from thinking until my brain explodes

[lilith2013]

I don't know if I would say I'm "intimately familiar" and idk if I would say skitter was aggro in city either

[lilith2013]

fyi re: Lunacy, I was actually townreading skitter and then like secretly revoked that townread after nahdia/raven lhf shenanigans but I didn't really care about outing that in thread

[lilith2013]

I don't really like using meta as a principle and I don't think it's really a good enough argument for me to point to other games and be like "but this game is different from my play there!" because I think skitter would be capable of changing her play to not be the same as other games?

[lilith2013]

Am I not good enough?

[lilith2013]

also I was kind of thinking the same things about raven’s entrance as skitter

[lilith2013]

Would u care to vote there with me then?

I’m trying to figure out how it fits into other reads

Is there any chance of scum!Datisi here? I’ve only played jk9++ with him so I don’t really know what that looks like

[lilith2013]

Wasn’t like, everyone townreading bugs

[lilith2013]

not in that way! i'm happy to see you, lilith!

you can’t see it but I’m making sad faces at you

[lilith2013]

I’m like 75% joking

why do you wish donc was here though? For reading skitter?

[lilith2013]

I don't really think you're both town but also I would hate myself for pushing through an execution on town!skitter or town!duck

[lilith2013]

That’s where I’m at

[lilith2013]

other than my initial impression of "skit and duck are both good players, and i doubt if they were TvT they would both be scumreading each other like this", now it's the fact that, while this dance is going, i don't think anyone is excitedly jumping around it trying to push one of them through (unless you wanna argue i'm doing that, but eh...) which is sorta what i'd expect if they *were* TvT

Isn’t pooky trying to push skitter wagon?

[lilith2013]

@Raven, how much of the game have you read?

[lilith2013]

no yeah I agree

[lilith2013]

could it be?
skitter realising she's not going to get me elim'd and pushing another miselim based on someone not looking good?
surely not
SURELY

The snark is not helping

[lilith2013]

Duck, can you read raven’s posts and tell me what you think of them? And then repeat that but in the hypothetical scenario that skitter is town

[lilith2013]

oh i scumread him super super strongly, i'm just not particularly interested in forcing it through to an elim rn

i think ur present tl on me is premature and stronger than it ought to be given what you've actually read of the game, and reminds me of how scum tend to slap townreads on me cuz it's often the easiest way to deal with me

I disagree that my read on you is stronger than it ought to be. I’ve played 5 games with you tops, two of them you were playing your scumgame as I’ve seen it. You can’t in good faith honestly sr me for that. What do you see as inconsistent with your play in those two games and my read on you here?

I also said that A) it was a bit of a townlean. It’s not super strong like say Koba who is like super town and B) duckling’s examples have made me realize that it was in fact premature but again, what tf else would you have me base my read of you on, if not for games I’ve actually played with you? Still don’t see how you’re seeing that as even remotely scummy.

I think it's weirder that you singled her out

[lilith2013]

kind of what skitter said already. you admitted you haven't read much of the game but still have strong enough read on her to come in and defend her that strongly. also skitter wasn't at risk of being executed, like for all the pushing that duck has been doing, he wasn't even voting her at the time and no one else was

[lilith2013]

I think skitter is saying it's disingenuous for you to only call it a townlean but defend her like you've locktowned her

[lilith2013]

that is fine, and makes sense!
if u would like to elaborate, feel free!

(i have like oog Thoughts on the efficacy and efficiency and fun-ness of forcing things through)

i don't know if there is much to elaborate. i guess i'm just seeing scum!agenda behind that. being able to shut him out while not going head on?

^

[lilith2013]

also personally I think I'm much easier to read than skitter and you haven't stated a read on me at all

[lilith2013]

isn't the point of a secret alt to not be able to use meta?

[lilith2013]

aldus, readslist please

[lilith2013]

boooooo

[lilith2013]

I don't really feel like aldus has put in any effort into trying to solve the game (he claims he hasn't been able to get into scumhunting but I also haven't really seen townhunting). his posts are pretty passive. I'm probably still okay executing that slot (again, pending raven catchup)

[lilith2013]

cool thanks

[lilith2013]

[lilith2013]

I hope you know I'm only booing because this game needs way more SS (and probably way less me). you're supposed to carry us to victory with logic and rationality etc etc

[lilith2013]

@dsjstr would also like reads from you please

pedit: fiiiiiine but I’m not responsible for anything dumb happening that you weren’t here to talk me out of!!!

[lilith2013]

Yeah that readslist is not great

[lilith2013]

really????? what changed

[lilith2013]

no offense to datisi but I think SS' and my slots are both way more obvtown (SS by predecessor and me by, well, me) and we shouldn't be closer to null than both dsjstr and datisi and what seems to be even below skitter in that list

[lilith2013]

I don't think it's necessarily scummy but you've also shown like zero effort to gamesolve and then come up with garbage reads so I don't really know what other conclusion I'm supposed to draw

[lilith2013]

aldus, please explain your reads/lack thereof on me and SS

[lilith2013]

seriously not helping your case

[lilith2013]

1) I said the SS read should be higher based on his predecessor, not him. koba had significant content in his ISO other than the DC fight. do you think his dayvig reaction test could have come from scum? what was your read on koba?
2) I agree that DC's ISO is dominated by koba fights, which is why I said that I'm the obvtown one in the slot. why is my content less towny to you than datisi's or dstsjr's? and skitter's?

[lilith2013]

1) I said the SS read should be higher based on his predecessor, not him. koba had significant content in his ISO other than the DC fight. do you think their dayvig reaction test could have come from scum? what was your read on koba?
2) I agree that DC's ISO is dominated by koba fights, which is why I said that I'm the obvtown one in the slot. why is my content less towny to you than datisi's or dstsjr's? and skitter's?

sorry, I think I misgendered. fixed, I hope.

[lilith2013]

how tf am I not transparently town?

please quote me posts and tell me where you think I could have a hidden scum agenda because I really don't believe that

[lilith2013]

Aldus, your posting reminds me of my scumgame quite a bit. as far as content goes, you've reacted to a lot of posts with "why?" and questioning of other people's reads, but there's no evidence of follow-through or underlying threads of thought there that imply that you're thinking about the game in a way that attempts to solve it

[lilith2013]

how tf am I not transparently town?

please quote me posts and tell me where you think I could have a hidden scum agenda because I really don't believe that

there's nothing specifically in your posts like that, it's just dsj and skitter have those towntells in their posts and I don't really see that in yours.

okay, quote dsjstr's and skitter's posts and describe what towntells you see in their posts.

why do you say you think I could have a hidden scum agenda if there's nothing in my posts that actually makes you think I could have a hidden scum agenda and you can't support why you think that?

Aldus, your posting reminds me of my scumgame quite a bit. as far as content goes, you've reacted to a lot of posts with "why?" and questioning of other people's reads, but there's no evidence of follow-through or underlying threads of thought there that imply that you're thinking about the game in a way that attempts to solve it

I haven't found anything really solid yet so that's probably why you're getting that feeling

I don't rly have a defense for that though other than to say I am thinking about this game, it's just I find it a tough game to solve.

If you were me (and town, of course), would you be having an easier time finding a solid scumread?

yeah, that's literally not what I'm saying. I don't care if you have scumreads, I care whether your posts seem to have actual thoughts about solving the game behind them, which they don't. your response to everything is "why," and as far as is visible in thread, you don't actively engage with the content to which you said "why" to try to come up with your own reasoning on it and you also don't follow up on the responses to further your own reads/thoughts about the game. you keep saying that you're having a hard time coming up with scumreads but it doesn't look like you're even trying to interact with people to develop reads, which I think would be even more important to do if you don't have reads

[lilith2013]

@aldus I didn't want to weight this too heavily but you also seem to go mia and then pop into thread when the wagon looks like it's coming back onto you

[lilith2013]

datisi, can I get more opinions on you about aldus please

[lilith2013]

from you*

[lilith2013]

okay seriously can you fucking stop with that?

If you believe that players aren't playing to wincon due to personal relationships outside the game, then you should report them.

[lilith2013]

i'd like a vc but i think i'm willing to vote aldu now

quick recap of reasons would be great, please and ty

[lilith2013]

you obviously care enough to scream about it in thread for pages and post a snarky response any time they're mentioned together. Either you believe they're not playing to wincon and you report them, or stop talking about it. It is not pleasant to read.

[lilith2013]

I'll quote posts from dsj and skitter later, but as for the rest of your post lilith:

I said you COULD have a hidden scum agenda. Which is true of anyone until proven otherwise. I think you're misunderstanding what I was trying to say. You're acting like I'm scumreading you when I was just trying to explain why you weren't as town to me as other slots.

If I ask "why" and don't follow up then that often means I found the answer satisfactory. I disagree that I'm not trying to interact with people to develop reads because I think that's what I'm doing right now.

If you can't think of any hidden scum agenda that could be behind my posts, then I shouldn't be a townlean...

Saying that I'm not as towny because you could see me having a hidden scum agenda implies that you have put thought into what hidden scum agenda I could have. But you clearly haven't thought about it, so then why are you saying that you could see me having a hidden scum agenda?

@aldus I didn't want to weight this too heavily but you also seem to go mia and then pop into thread when the wagon looks like it's coming back onto you

that would require me to have read the thread in order to see that the wagon is coming back to me and if I've read the thread then I'd post

It might also be a timezone thing?

This isn't as strong as I thought it was. You disappeared from thread for like 36 hours though, and many of the posts in the thread during that time were (whether inadvertent or deliberate) derailing your wagon. Now that the conversation has gone away from skitter/duck, you suddenly popped in again.

Like I said, I don't want to weight it too heavily but I think it's somewhat relevant.

[lilith2013]

why are you quoting that at me? I already responded to it.

Aldus, your posting reminds me of my scumgame quite a bit. as far as content goes, you've reacted to a lot of posts with "why?" and questioning of other people's reads, but there's no evidence of follow-through or underlying threads of thought there that imply that you're thinking about the game in a way that attempts to solve it

I haven't found anything really solid yet so that's probably why you're getting that feeling

I don't rly have a defense for that though other than to say I am thinking about this game, it's just I find it a tough game to solve.

If you were me (and town, of course), would you be having an easier time finding a solid scumread?

yeah, that's literally not what I'm saying. I don't care if you have scumreads, I care whether your posts seem to have actual thoughts about solving the game behind them, which they don't. your response to everything is "why," and as far as is visible in thread, you don't actively engage with the content to which you said "why" to try to come up with your own reasoning on it and you also don't follow up on the responses to further your own reads/thoughts about the game. you keep saying that you're having a hard time coming up with scumreads but it doesn't look like you're even trying to interact with people to develop reads, which I think would be even more important to do if you don't have reads[/quote]

[lilith2013]

quote fail. fixed:

Aldus, your posting reminds me of my scumgame quite a bit. as far as content goes, you've reacted to a lot of posts with "why?" and questioning of other people's reads, but there's no evidence of follow-through or underlying threads of thought there that imply that you're thinking about the game in a way that attempts to solve it

I haven't found anything really solid yet so that's probably why you're getting that feeling

I don't rly have a defense for that though other than to say I am thinking about this game, it's just I find it a tough game to solve.

If you were me (and town, of course), would you be having an easier time finding a solid scumread?

yeah, that's literally not what I'm saying. I don't care if you have scumreads, I care whether your posts seem to have actual thoughts about solving the game behind them, which they don't. your response to everything is "why," and as far as is visible in thread, you don't actively engage with the content to which you said "why" to try to come up with your own reasoning on it and you also don't follow up on the responses to further your own reads/thoughts about the game. you keep saying that you're having a hard time coming up with scumreads but it doesn't look like you're even trying to interact with people to develop reads, which I think would be even more important to do if you don't have reads

[lilith2013]

that is not the question you asked

[lilith2013]

and again, don't really care what your reads are if you can support them with reasoning and are trying to develop them. I haven't seen evidence of that though.

[lilith2013]

I mean your hidden scum agenda could be pushing my miselimination but you could also just be mistaken town.

Again, I don't actually get the sense that you've thought about the motivations behind my posts and quite frankly I think you're making up reasons not to townread me.

pedit: well it's the question I'm asking now

why are you asking me this?

[lilith2013]

meh

Aldus’ focus on the mask and trying to “hide” PRs makes even less sense as a vt

[lilith2013]

I think we should let raven fully catch up before ending the day though

[lilith2013]

@mod I think I shouldn't be voting anyone?

VOTE: skitter

UNVOTE:

[lilith2013]

Um I’m mostly waiting for raven’s catchup at this point

[lilith2013]

Skitter, are you no longer scumreading duck?

[lilith2013]

sorry, I'm not following the logic between those two statements. Can you explain what the difference is

[lilith2013]

can you explain aldus/skit theory please?

[lilith2013]

can you give me more than that? I need some help here

[lilith2013]

lilith what do you think of this skitt/raven thing for the past page or two?

ugh my brain hurts so much

I don't really see where Raven is coming from with reading skitter based on a specific thing she did in Lunacy vs here, and I was in that game with them. In fact the reasoning that raven is using based on Lunacy is making my brain go ???? which I think could be a sign of scum because I can't understand raven's perspective at all, whereas I think if it was town reasoning I would be more likely to see how she could come to those conclusions? Instead my brain is short-circuiting trying to figure out how the Lunacy game applies to the specific reasons for scumreading skitter.

can you give me more than that? I need some help here

You don't want to react to it

I wanted to play detective and try to get a read from that

you're trying to read me based on my reaction to your response to my question?

sorry but I feel like the rest of my ISO should be plenty to read me off of..

I also don't really think I can react because I don't understand what thought process you used to get to aldus/skit team. You gave me a super vague answer which is really not enough for me to respond to or consider

[lilith2013]

datisi, what's your read on raven?

[lilith2013]

i hope you feel better soon!

and i still feel like ur initial tl on me was quite suspect, tbh

Ty but I honestly don’t see why because when I first repped into the game, I thought that duckling was like 78% scum, I don’t think that anymore because

he has made a compelling case and since dialed down his push on you but hasn’t changed his vote to anyone else.

I still think you sound more sincere here than in those two games he linked but then I remember that att, I locktown read you in tm.

I’m somewhat paranoid about your unwillingness to push tw, because it’s “unpleasant”. When do you think that it would ever be pleasant? And now you’re linking me and Alsus? Based on what exactly? What pings me is that you didn’t say you have independent reasons for sr us both but that you thought we were buddies, when you earlier posted that you were suspicious of all of the you/Aldus scumreads. how do you not see the obvious contradiction in doing that to me?

Raven, can you explain why the bolded makes duck town? what about it is town indicative to you?

[lilith2013]

This is so extremely frustrating. How many more times do I need to explain this? @Lillith, what do you think I haven’t made clear? Can you pinpoint it specifically because I’m at a dead loss to explain it any better.

I'm still parsing through posts (eg above). might take a bit since I'm supposed to be working

[lilith2013]

lilith, i have no clue

i am genuinely completely lost in this discussion about lunacy and meta and i was hoping to sheep you on it because you also played in that game but

i'm working on it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -sob-

i still haven't reviewed bugs games if you're asking that

oh I guess it's not as important because bugs is no longer here but I guess if you can do that I'm okay with having the lunacy shit delegated to me

[lilith2013]

Does someone else have an opinion on duck/skitter that can maybe like, help unfog my brain

Well there’s Skitter’s obviously scummy play on D1 of Lunacy which you locktowned her for while wrongly believing you were scum there.

can you explain what about her play in Lunacy was obvscum?

pedit: oh

[lilith2013]

okay I'm still gonna do this thing because I really need to sort raven anyway

[lilith2013]

eh lunacy was weird and atypical. let's go with city!

But my point is that like Lillith, like me, you wrongly did think you were scum on that. It’s a lot easier for me to make meta reads on games I’ve actually been in and I’ve seen your scumplay twice and I think you tend to be a lot more aggro as scum and your play so far here, doesn’t look particularly agenda-y to me.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11944570

For anyone who missed that glorious awesome game.

now that you are scumreading skitter (or I guess

when

you were scumreading skitter), did you think she was playing in the range of her "aggro" scum meta?

[lilith2013]

ugh i don't know this game is a mess!!

tell me about it.................

[lilith2013]

i hope you feel better soon!

and i still feel like ur initial tl on me was quite suspect, tbh

Ty but I honestly don’t see why because when I first repped into the game, I thought that duckling was like 78% scum, I don’t think that anymore because

he has made a compelling case and since dialed down his push on you but hasn’t changed his vote to anyone else.

I still think you sound more sincere here than in those two games he linked but then I remember that att, I locktown read you in tm.

I’m somewhat paranoid about your unwillingness to push tw, because it’s “unpleasant”. When do you think that it would ever be pleasant? And now you’re linking me and Alsus? Based on what exactly? What pings me is that you didn’t say you have independent reasons for sr us both but that you thought we were buddies, when you earlier posted that you were suspicious of all of the you/Aldus scumreads. how do you not see the obvious contradiction in doing that to me?

Raven, can you explain why the bolded makes duck town? what about it is town indicative to you?

He cited examples of scum!Skitter’s play in two games that was very different than what I know of her scum meta. Because she doesn’t want to vote him for some reason which makes 0 sense to me. I don’t know anymore, I just know that she’s pushing a mislynch on me for bad reasons but I guess she could just be wrong town doing it too. She literally did the exact same thing to me in that game we fought about in our Lunacy PT. Her push on me is wrongheaded but I can’t ignore the obvious sincerity behind it. Sorry Skitter. :/

UNVOTE:

can you explain why you're backing down now, and not like, at any point before this?

[lilith2013]

also need duck to reweigh in on this

[lilith2013]

i hope you feel better soon!

and i still feel like ur initial tl on me was quite suspect, tbh

Ty but I honestly don’t see why because when I first repped into the game, I thought that duckling was like 78% scum, I don’t think that anymore because

he has made a compelling case and since dialed down his push on you but hasn’t changed his vote to anyone else.

I still think you sound more sincere here than in those two games he linked but then I remember that att, I locktown read you in tm.

I’m somewhat paranoid about your unwillingness to push tw, because it’s “unpleasant”. When do you think that it would ever be pleasant? And now you’re linking me and Alsus? Based on what exactly? What pings me is that you didn’t say you have independent reasons for sr us both but that you thought we were buddies, when you earlier posted that you were suspicious of all of the you/Aldus scumreads. how do you not see the obvious contradiction in doing that to me?

Raven, can you explain why the bolded makes duck town? what about it is town indicative to you?

He cited examples of scum!Skitter’s play in two games that was very different than what I know of her scum meta. Because she doesn’t want to vote him for some reason which makes 0 sense to me. I don’t know anymore, I just know that she’s pushing a mislynch on me for bad reasons but I guess she could just be wrong town doing it too. She literally did the exact same thing to me in that game we fought about in our Lunacy PT. Her push on me is wrongheaded but I can’t ignore the obvious sincerity behind it. Sorry Skitter. :/

UNVOTE:

sorry, I don't feel like this really answered my question, which was why duck pushing skitt less and still voting her is towny to you?

[lilith2013]

it doesn't help to be patronizing towards me..

[lilith2013]

Does someone else have an opinion on duck/skitter that can maybe like, help unfog my brain

Well there’s Skitter’s obviously scummy play on D1 of Lunacy which you locktowned her for while wrongly believing you were scum there. I’m seriously hoping you wouldn’t have done that as town but because you wrongly thought you were scum in that, I have no meta in which to parse you. I like you bettter than yoir predecessor here, so at least that’s a start anyway.

My point being,if it’s not already obvious is that Skitter’s D1 play here is clearly different than in Lunacy, so I’m kind of baffled how she’s duckling‘s #1 sr here.

"I hope you didn't actually townread skitter"
"no offense but it was so obvious she was scum. you're not actually asking why she was scummy, right?"
yeah. I read those as patronizing.

[lilith2013]

explain please?

[lilith2013]

I guess because initially it looked to me that his push came our of nowhere and it lookee kind of forced to me, so when he backed off, it looked like what he would do as town because in Starcraft he went straight from hard driving my mislynch to outright buddying me, so if he suddenly started doing that to Skitter, I would then probably sr him for that. And in Starcraft, his reasons for pushing me unlike Skitter were beyond ludicrous. Here he gave valid reasons, so I’m still not sure but I don’t want Skitter to be executed today, because he might be wrong. I have been fooled by wrong tonal reads before but I can’t in good faith vote her today even if it means I die, which I obviously hope doesn’t happen.

so you're townreading duck.. because he didn't do

exactly

the same thing that he did as scum in another game? that like, assumes that players always behave exactly the same as scum which I don't agree with whatsoever.

[lilith2013]

Why are you townreading pooky though

[lilith2013]

at this rate the scumteam is gonna end up being s_s/lilith because this game is a game

alas it is not, which is unfortunate because I need to redeem myself as an SS scumpartner after jk9++

[lilith2013]

Has raven finished whatever reading she plans on doing?

[lilith2013]

shhh you are doing better

in other news, i looked at some of bugs's completed games (both town and scum, both first-hand and second-hand meta), and i don't know how to explain my feelings there. like, the best i know how to say it is, in games where bugs was scum, i would get a "!!!" ding in my head when they'd post, and i didn't get that "!!!" ding when they were town. this is like, the ultimate gut read that i cannot put into words and i do not know its accuracy.

I believe you! this is a bit similar to how I read SS lol

So you didn’t get any !!! dings in this game?

[lilith2013]

What do you think scum!pooky would be doing here then?

[lilith2013]

Also duck can you give your opinion on raven please

[lilith2013]

Oh nvm I saw you mentioned her

[lilith2013]

Are you still scumreading/leaning aldus?

[lilith2013]

God my head hurts so much

[lilith2013]

Why do you think scum!pooky would be antispewing? He’s not really in any danger of execution today imo

[lilith2013]

executive decision, we're back to executing aldus unless someone can provide a convincing reason not to

[lilith2013]

i wish s_s was here

[lilith2013]

maybe we should wait for him to come back before hammering

[lilith2013]

yes we're prretty durnk

[lilith2013]

oh god I am incredibly hungover D:

I still want to wait for SS to come back..? Also I’m still trying to decide whether I’m scumreading raven or I just don’t like her posting style, because some of the same things from Lunacy are bothering me I think

Please don’t hammer yet. I need time for my brain to start functioning

[lilith2013]

.........

This is not a personal attack, I think it’s somewhat expected that I just won’t vibe well with everyone’s writing and that should be okay for me to say?

[lilith2013]

Perhaps my wording could have been better but it also seems like you just take things super personally in general when it’s not necessarily meant to be personal. Like, I’m not saying that I don’t like you or that I think you’re a bad player or anything remotely close to that, I’m just internally debating whether the way you write throws me off enough that I’m possibly reading it as scummy.

[lilith2013]

I think you are overexaggerating my behavior, I don’t feel like I’ve picked on you at all or been “prejudiced,” all of my posting has been game-oriented and I’m not

doing

anything on purpose.

[lilith2013]

Honestly the more I read your posts the angrier I become because you’re making me out to be some kind of villain when the reason I even brought this up is because I’m trying to be fair to you as a player.

[lilith2013]

-

I thought I was scum in that game.

anything I said there, is like, going to be exaggerated for effect???
- I disagree with the claim that I was deathtunneling you
- I’m

not

saying that I’m scumreading you for your playstyle. if I’m scumreading you based on your writing style then it is 100%

unintentional

and

my entire point

is that I’m trying to assess whether I am in fact unintentionally scumreading you for your writing style so that I can then

not do that

- I don’t believe I have singled you out as a player or even picked on you, because, again, the reason I brought it up is because I’m trying to be fair
- given that Lunacy was the first game we were in together and this is the second, I think it’s reasonable for me to need at least one game played together before considering whether it’s a playstyle thing that made me scumread you. Now that we’re on the second game, I’m recalibrating my reads based on your play in both games. You keep bringing up Lunacy but like, I’m not sure how exactly I’m supposed to undo things I did in Lunacy, and on top of that I didn’t even know you so how on earth would I have known whether this is just how you post?

[lilith2013]

tbh I feel like getting into arguments as scum or with scum (or in this case thinking it’s as scum/with scum), you can’t take it personally once you find out their alignment because the thing you were upset about was them doing it on purpose as part of the game, you know? Unless it’s like a super personal attack

[lilith2013]

I’m waiting for SS to catch up.

[lilith2013]

dsjstr is in this game !! what.

let's kill dsjstr, when someone disappears from my radar THAT much I think they're > rand scum.

Taken individually, I thought his posts were kinda towny?

[lilith2013]

The case on lilith is similarly tenuous, and while I almost certainly should be voting my counterwagon here, I'm not sure that it would actually be better for the game if she got lynched.

Ah yes

It was about my scumbuddy too lol, but sadly Alduskkel didn't name any particular person he wanted to protect.

Please let’s never speak about this game again

[lilith2013]

SS I’m super concerned that we have really different views of the game state atm and like how do we reconcile that? Because one of us has to be wrong

[lilith2013]

Explicit reads on aldus/skitter/duck would be a good start, when you can get to it

[lilith2013]

I guess it’s not that different

[lilith2013]

if I had to put people in tiers they would be something like

{SS}
{Datisi, dsjstr}
{pooky}
{bugspray, duck, skitter} <— null
{aldus}

I'm here except aldus is now in the null tier

[lilith2013]

Do you think it’s an aldus/skitter team?

[lilith2013]

Skitter refusing to give a read on aldus for like 80 pages seems pretty stupid to do as a scumbuddy

[lilith2013]

Yes.

[lilith2013]

SS please talk to me about duck I don’t know how to read him

[lilith2013]

Seriously I’m like against personally using meta because I think I just confbias myself into seeing whatever I’m looking for that proves my original reason for meta-diving

[lilith2013]

Yeah I remember the fights and your fights with duck kinda remind me of our fights sooooo

[lilith2013]

Personally I have a stronger read on aldus being scum and am still pretty null on both duck/skitter, but on the other hand maybe that points to duck/skitter team, but on the third hand (as I’ve said before) I would hate myself for leading a misexecution on either of them

[lilith2013]

Skitter, have you at all addressed the paranoia about you/duck? (like, in a serious way?)

[lilith2013]

Oh my god I don’t know if I’m being super genius or horribly obtuse

Stewing in my thoughts for now

[lilith2013]

akdjehtoaowjwhtba

sorry

[lilith2013]

Skitter, have you at all addressed the paranoia about you/duck? (like, in a serious way?)

not really
can i, like, give a serious answer on this tom?
i promise i'll address it tom if we're both still alive and it's still an issue

This is kind of pivotal for my read on you and without flattering myself too much, it might be the difference between an aldus execution and your execution. So please humor me at least a little here.

[lilith2013]

SS prefers executing you and I’m inclined to just go along with unless I get something that helps me read you better

[lilith2013]

On the flip side, if you’re town and I can townread you today, that puts us in a really strong position for the rest of the game and I’d argue I’d probably also seriously consider a duck execution

[lilith2013]

“Something that helps me read you better” also doesn’t have to be this specific thing, that just happens to be a thing I think would help but I would also consider other things

[lilith2013]

Almost definitely scum

Sorry, I’m absolutely atrocious at picking up softs :/

[lilith2013]

Welp. Back to aldus, pending any further discussions that SS wants to have before day ends

[lilith2013]

right, and assuming i can be confed overnight then how do you think tomorrow goes?
it's a lot less messy than forcing it through today

(like, i usually know what i'm doing ...)

Yeah, in hindsight I think this explains some of the weirdness I was feeling

[lilith2013]

I still think aldus is the better choice in terms of wagon interactions?

[lilith2013]

VOTE: aldus

L-1

assuming nobody will be quickhammering this before we're ready

wait was this hammer??

[lilith2013]

oh datisi unvoted earlier nvm

had a heart attack for a second

[lilith2013]

I have ~thoughts~ too but would love to hear from skitter on that

[lilith2013]

my sleep schedule is super fucked these days

also, uh, sorry I don't think we helped

[lilith2013]

my reasoning for it not being tvt is that in a world with a tvt fight that focused, I'm almost positive that scum would have been voicing agreement with one side or the other and trying to garner favor for a wagon on one if not both sides, but instead the fight was kind of bubbling up for pages and pages without much input from anyone outside the fight

[lilith2013]

I didn't really think about there being an underlying theme...

[lilith2013]

i still think that the timing of aldu being willing to entertain tw was quite suspect

wouldn't that indicate town!duck though?

[lilith2013]

yeah that's why i suddenly dropped duck and was pushing aldu/raven (which i got flak for, remember?)
it was a bizarre af read/progression and there's something fishy there

yes, I remember

Do you think Raven usually reads this emotional?

[lilith2013]

I'm probably townreading it but it also distinctly reminds me of myself in jk9++ and even if I'm townreading it, I like, don't want to be townreading it on principle

[lilith2013]

dsjstr I know you're online.......................................

[lilith2013]

it = raven's emotional outbursts, yes

[lilith2013]

Skitter I’m acknowledging

I wanted SS to check in again before the day ends

[lilith2013]

I’m pretty sure I’m really wrong about things somewhere

Which makes me even more concerned because if SS and I have similar reads then we’re both being bamboozled

[lilith2013]

wow for a second I thought you were town

Like you literally just wrote 2692 and now you’re voting skitter?

[lilith2013]

Okay things are fine in my world again

[lilith2013]

This has nothing to do with any “scumslips”

Why are you voting skitter if you have just reasoned why we shouldn’t be executing skitter?

[lilith2013]

the fuck

[lilith2013]

Dude if you’re town you’ve done a fairly horrible job

pedit: yeah that

[lilith2013]

secrets to playing town:
- be more obvtown
- be less mislynchable

[lilith2013]

har har got any other hot takes?

If you’re actually town, then yeah, I have a lot of words. Not going to spend the effort without a townflip though.

[lilith2013]

Sometimes I have extreme bouts of self-doubt in my ability to read SS but then I’m like, no I should believe in myself more

[lilith2013]

I mean that was a general comment, but also I didn’t really read koba’s posts because I’d rather read you so

Then again, that reliance requires confidence in my ability to read you

[lilith2013]

Let’s end the day before someone hits 400. Any final words, anyone?

[lilith2013]

skitter, please do the honors

[lilith2013]

wow.

[lilith2013]

I probably won’t say anything else until I can write something that won’t get me banned.

[lilith2013]

I probably won’t say anything else until I can write something that won’t get me banned.

[lilith2013]

I’ll start with good things:

- my 100% read rate on SS stays intact yayyyyyy (now I just have to beat my record of lockreading within 17 SS posts)
- I enjoyed playing with most of you

[lilith2013]

I’ll start with good things:

- my 100% read rate on SS stays intact yayyyyyy (now I just have to beat my record of lockreading within 17 SS posts)
- I enjoyed playing with most of you

hey I'm not *that* bad

(I enjoyed playing with you a lot. we need to reprise this soon!)

<3 for sure. I’m sad I didn’t get to live past N1 because I’d like to believe I would have gotten the POE right (and would also like to live past N1

one time

as town so I can actually play a game of mafia), but who knows!

[lilith2013]

Actually, I reported quite a few posts that were not yours.

[lilith2013]

Raven:

I get that you have emotional reactions to things, fine. I personally don’t find it enjoyable to feel like anything I say (especially something that was an offhanded comment and not even an actual read or push on you) will beget a response that makes me feel like you’re accusing me of being a horrible person who singles out other people and bullies them across games. I think maybe you forget that we are also humans, who also have mental health struggles, and who will also be affected by things you say just as much as you are affected by things we say. I don’t like to publicize my problems, but that doesn’t mean I don’t have my own shit going on. You made me feel pretty horrible about myself at a time when I was already feeling horrible about myself. I don’t believe it was maliciously intended, but I don’t think I will be playing any games with you in the future.

[lilith2013]

and ftr I was actually “correctly” scumreading you in both games so I feel like the comments about me singling you out were completely unwarranted.

[lilith2013]

I feel like I have been very neutral in my posts, especially in comparison to the full extent of my feelings. I do not think I have continued to criticize you or that I criticized you in the first place.

[lilith2013]

Wait hold on, I thought DonCorleone was gobbledygook

Did I miss something?

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12063550

[lilith2013]

You seem to take everything I say to mean that I’m attacking you somehow when I feel like I have been as civil as I can possibly be, given the situation. I’m not even sure what it is that I’m supposed to be stopping. I believe it’s best for my own sake to just avoid you instead of having to navigate this every time I post.

[lilith2013]

i currently think that all scum is in {tw, raven, aldu}.

tfw skitter was right on D1

[lilith2013]

this wasn't the full conftown!skitter lylo experience (tm)

the glimpse I got was still great to read!

[lilith2013]

why were yall doubting my SS locktownread though

[lilith2013]

Oh maybe I’m just thinking of pooky shouting that SS is scum for pages

[lilith2013]

ngl I feel like a little bit betrayed that what I thought was our first game together was not actually our first game together

[lilith2013]

ok well I wouldn't think it's unethical in any way to fake emotion in mafia because I think the game of mafia is supposed to be about faking emotions and trying to read someone's true identity behind the mask they wear on the surface.

I've always felt that mafia is more of an emotional/psychological game than a logical game.

I don't think anyone is arguing that faking emotions is not allowed.

I do think there is a point where certain behavior crosses the line - eg attacks and appeals that are personal and not game-related. Games aren't a free-for-all where you can say whatever you want and there's no consequences, especially because a lot of us play with the same people again and again. There is also some trust required that we take each other at face value when we say personal things. You're free to break that trust if it advances your wincon, but with the consequence that some people won't like that you broke their trust or behaved badly towards them, and they won't want to play with you again. Like if someone told me that their family member was really sick and that's why they were acting a certain way but it wasn't true, I would feel personally betrayed that they had lied to me and I'd probably choose not to play with them again.

[lilith2013]

that was meant to be a purely philosophical post, I'm not trying to refer to anything that happened in this game and I'm sorry if it came out that way.

[lilith2013]

i think from that vantage point u were mostly fine tbh

right, I'm more just disagreeing with pooky's statement that like, all emotional manipulation is okay

[lilith2013]

I like the idea of trello and wish I was dedicated enough to use such a thing. instead i just word-vomit into the game thread!