Mini Normal 2179 | ENDGAME

[Titus]

I didn’t have anything with Battle Mage that pinged me, however, i do normally town read him when he is town, and his Outer vote does make sense as scum, so NPOM/Battle Mage does make sense. I don’t think either Outer or Alchemist are bussing NPOM, so that means it’s probably NPOM/BM/No Elim.

Which sucks because the masons give NPOM strength.

Alternatively, I’m wrong on Outer, but I need within NPOM and the masons today.

I was kinda hoping you would defend Battle Mage so I could con Mathblade into eliminating him correctly. What really pinged me (aside from our earlier fights) is his historical vote pattern. He's third on NPOM on earlier days, but when the time comes back, he votes Outer instead. He then scurries off (likely because IRL but still).

Outer would likely only be scum with NPOM anyway because Outer claiming not VT gives NPOM's claim some legitimacy because it would be accurate.

[Titus]

I don’t give scum what they want.

This is princess bride worthy.

You and Flavor Leaf each must drink a glass to exit a room. (Don't cheat the premise.) Flavor Leaf knows which is poisoned.

He tells you "Drink the one on your left."

Do you drink the one on your right, solely because you think Flavor is scum? If so, that makes you very easy to manipulate.

[Titus]

I didn’t have anything with Battle Mage that pinged me, however, i do normally town read him when he is town, and his Outer vote does make sense as scum, so NPOM/Battle Mage does make sense. I don’t think either Outer or Alchemist are bussing NPOM, so that means it’s probably NPOM/BM/No Elim.

Which sucks because the masons give NPOM strength.

Alternatively, I’m wrong on Outer, but I need within NPOM and the masons today.

I was kinda hoping you would defend Battle Mage so I could con Mathblade into eliminating him correctly. What really pinged me (aside from our earlier fights) is his historical vote pattern. He's third on NPOM on earlier days, but when the time comes back, he votes Outer instead. He then scurries off (likely because IRL but still).

Outer would likely only be scum with NPOM anyway because Outer claiming not VT gives NPOM's claim some legitimacy because it would be accurate.

Why are you not considering NPOM town?

I did attempt to entertain it last night.
The issues with his claim are too volumnious.
The vote wagon history is too bad.
The fact that the Ben wagon should have scum on it somewhere.
Battle Mage's vote patterns.

I did look. I did entertain it. I just can't see it with any rational scenario.

[Titus]

I don’t really want a Battle Mage fade today, that’s just going to cause tomorrow to be between NPOM and Masons for me.

So this means we should fade Battle Mage right?

[Titus]

Vote wagon analysis...

Two scum are not going to start a counterwagon when they could just get on superbowl instead that's driven by two town.

Ben's wagon was driven by his implosion, which NPOM jumped on.

[Titus]

Probably fl ower Titus is the scumteam.

Possible but Alch is more likely and one of Titus/FL being town derp is more likely.

You realize that NPOM's scumteam just happens to be three players who aren't going to vote each other prior to his flip right? It's pretty blatantly transparent.

[Titus]

Look at the join date Titus. They’re a newb. They’re probably a me who suspects everyone who suspects them badly.

Their join date has zero to do with their personality.

You're pitying them because they remind you of you. That's not evidence Math. Look at their play.

You can't suppose they're town in the justification.

[Titus]

Let’s try this another way.

Assume NPOM scum and Outer town like you’re theorizing.

Why does NPOM scum claim a guilty on Outer who is town?

It’s a bad scum move unless preplanned agreed?

NPOM didn't claim a guilty. NPOM claimed that Outer was just not a VT.

Outer then verified the claim as a bg claim.

[Titus]

Okay fine. Why does NPOM scum do that? I said earlier any other PR claim was going to be suspicious.

Get a buddy bus cred? Survive because a VT claim likely wouldn't?

The why depends on his teammates and what their objective is. My big theory is to bus him, but they could have just relied on you hard townreading NPOM.

[Titus]

Exactly. (Well minus the me lying part) This if NPOM scum is 100% designed for me to elim them. So if I assume NPOM is scum I don’t want to do that whoever scum is. NPOM could be scum but if we elim Outer we can demonstrate this is indeed what scum wanted or if I force scum to be on NPOM same thing occurs.

TLDR

Or just NPOM is scum because a) he lied and b) too much power

We don't need to eliminate town to get at scum.

[Titus]

Okay fine. Why does NPOM scum do that? I said earlier any other PR claim was going to be suspicious.

Get a buddy bus cred? Survive because a VT claim likely wouldn't?

The why depends on his teammates and what their objective is. My big theory is to bus him, but they could have just relied on you hard townreading NPOM.

I agree. NPOM if scum is absolutely a bus.

So if NPOM is scum I am going to force almost if not the entire scum team to do so.

Except you're not.

Basic math

Two masons plus three mafia = 5.
Even if the rest of the town agreed, we'd still have to get a busser onto NPOM. That's why BM isn't voting NPOM today but he was yesterday.

[Titus]

If you elim me because of LAL then that is pretty bad play.

You're not being eliminated based on LaL. {Btw, this is a common scum tactic to misframe the arguement.}

You're being eliminated because of your lie plus
You're being eliminated based on your vote history plus
You're being eliminated based on your lie not having any redeeming value
You're being eliminated because your reason for trying to get a shot off makes no sense
You're being eliminated because of trying to take credit for FL is just non-sense
You're being eliminated because of your OMGUS and reflexive proclamations of the scumteam, but still being willing to do Alch
You're being eliminated for buddying Mathblade.

[Titus]

Okay fine. Why does NPOM scum do that? I said earlier any other PR claim was going to be suspicious.

Get a buddy bus cred? Survive because a VT claim likely wouldn't?

The why depends on his teammates and what their objective is. My big theory is to bus him, but they could have just relied on you hard townreading NPOM.

I agree. NPOM if scum is absolutely a bus.

So if NPOM is scum I am going to force almost if not the entire scum team to do so.

Except you're not.

Basic math

Two masons plus three mafia = 5.
Even if the rest of the town agreed, we'd still have to get a busser onto NPOM. That's why BM isn't voting NPOM today but he was yesterday.

That’s my point exactly.

If scum all dogpile on outer and outer flips town then we know NPOM was scum and not a bus or the busser has to move.

If scum all dogpile on NPOM then we know scum did.

Mainly we learn a lot going into elo by what scum do here.

So great, why can't we just all dogpile NPOM then?

[Titus]

I can't wait to actually be scum against Math

I'd respond to this, but I'm just very frustrated with them.

It's getting right up there with being willing to policy them but we can't do that either. Either Mathblade comes around, or we likely lose this game.

[Titus]

We don't need to go into Elo Math.

You and I agree NPOM can be scum. Let's save the misfire for someone like Battle Mage.

[Titus]

@Math, Right now, we need to just eliminate scum.

If Outer is town, we have to eliminate in quick succession and you won't do BattleMage soooo...

Let's take the scum where we can, then move to the next step. Scum will have to pair down the theories with the NK.

[Titus]

@Math, Right now, we need to just eliminate scum.

If Outer is town, we have to eliminate in quick succession and you won't do BattleMage soooo...

Let's take the scum where we can, then move to the next step. Scum will have to pair down the theories with the NK.

Yes.

So pretty much we’re fucked unless someone budges.

So, why don't you budge in the direction you think is actually possible? Like you're holding the game hostage for ideal instead of possible and town all has to compromise. I already am compromising off of Battle Mage.

[Titus]

I'm fine with being elimmed tomorrow if OutWorldER flips town.

I don't really want either of you flipped.

I want NPOM or the Masons. If Outer is flipped, and is town, I will not be moving my vote off of Mathblade.

I'm non-negotiable on Outer, take from that what you will.

How'd you get from non-neogitatable on Outer from voting NPOM yesterday?

Now, you're defending NPOM. That screams that you're defending NPOM because you just need Math and you'll miseliminate whatever townie Math says to.

[Titus]

everyone else claimed vanilla? interesting.

So I will go out on a limb and say:

I believe the NPOM claim. I don't believe the Outer claim.

No one else has officially claimed.

You're not going out on a limb at all. You're basically obvscumming.

You believe a liar who lied under pressure but don't believe a bodyguard when its the only protective claimed?

[Titus]

I'm fine with being elimmed tomorrow if OutWorldER flips town.

I don't really want either of you flipped.

I want NPOM or the Masons. If Outer is flipped, and is town, I will not be moving my vote off of Mathblade.

I'm non-negotiable on Outer, take from that what you will.

How'd you get from non-neogitatable on Outer from voting NPOM yesterday?

Now, you're defending NPOM. That screams that you're defending NPOM because you just need Math and you'll miseliminate whatever townie Math says to.

See Titus? Teams are forming

Me on Outer is a good thing right now.

I had that regardless of your vote on Outer, but if it gets you to vote NPOM or Battle Mage, take the credit.

[Titus]

it's like blatantly Battle Mage and NPOM, math

Then let’s see if we can get a “third” by me being an “idiot”. If you’re right another player will have to agree as I have told Ranny not to vote and to be hammers.

*sees time*
*It's not five pm here*

Don't be messing with my clock.

[Titus]

everyone else claimed vanilla? interesting.

So I will go out on a limb and say:

I believe the NPOM claim. I don't believe the Outer claim.

No one else has officially claimed.

You're not going out on a limb at all. You're basically obvscumming.

You believe a liar who lied under pressure but don't believe a bodyguard when its the only protective claimed?

If you're town, you should just defer to my reads on this

No.

I do defer and work with people more than I used to but this is too far.

If you have a PR that explains the difference, it's time to out it.

[Titus]

Battle Mage is setting up to change their claim too.

Wait BM claimed VT too?

[Titus]

it's like blatantly Battle Mage and NPOM, math

Then let’s see if we can get a “third” by me being an “idiot”. If you’re right another player will have to agree as I have told Ranny not to vote and to be hammers.

What do you mean? If titus votes NPOM, he's at E-1. He isn't going to hammer. Stop blowing smoke.

Correct. Outer won’t be hammered either because Ranny won’t hammer until people have voted.

If anyone else hammers we know scum on those wagons.

Scum have to pick NPOM or Outer and they’re being forced to.

Then we can establish if NPOM is town or a scum proper or a scum bus and have much narrower worlds

Scum have to pick.

Or they can stick their hands up their butts.

We take NPOM

They'll have to shoot you and Ranny. Outer bodyguards.

Battle Mage then gets flipped.

They have to shoot you Ranny Outer

Which leaves us in a hell of a good position with a miselimination to spare.

[Titus]

@Battle Mage,

Why should I be deferring to your belief in the accuracy of NPOM's claim but not the accuracy of Outer's?

[Titus]

Like, Math, you're trying to live, right?

Outer targets you tonight, boom.

You automatically live or Outer is conf scum.

I wish that were true.

[Titus]

everyone else claimed vanilla? interesting.

So I will go out on a limb and say:

I believe the NPOM claim. I don't believe the Outer claim.

No one else has officially claimed.

You're not going out on a limb at all. You're basically obvscumming.

You believe a liar who lied under pressure but don't believe a bodyguard when its the only protective claimed?

If you're town, you should just defer to my reads on this

No.

I do defer and work with people more than I used to but this is too far.

If you have a PR that explains the difference, it's time to out it.

[Titus]

Like, Math, you're trying to live, right?

Outer targets you tonight, boom.

You automatically live or Outer is conf scum.

No. I am not trying to live.

I play each day as if I am dead the next one.

I really think it’s Outer and Alch and FL or Titus here.

But by forcing wagons I can see if Titus’s case has merit and by giving Ranny hammers it literally removes stupid me from the equation.

IT IS MY CASE

MY CASE HAS MERIT

JUST BECAUSE YOU CANT SEE THAT I AM TOWN DOES NOT MEAN IT IS NOT ME CASING NPOM CORRECTLY

Just help me find the third and pass the credit to me. Then we win. Then you can gloat in post game about how good a player you are. Credit does nothing right now.

[Titus]

Like, Math, you're trying to live, right?

Outer targets you tonight, boom.

You automatically live or Outer is conf scum.

No. I am not trying to live.

I play each day as if I am dead the next one.

I really think it’s Outer and Alch and FL or Titus here.

But by forcing wagons I can see if Titus’s case has merit and by giving Ranny hammers it literally removes stupid me from the equation.

I think it's FL + Titus dude, with Alch-town, but we can afford 1 mis-elim later on if needed.

If you think that's the setup, why do you push Outer?

Just look at the VCs Math. Not with the answer you think is true, but the answer that has everyone act rationally.

[Titus]

@FL, Alch or no elim

Who's the third? I don't care if we win or lose at this point. That's Math's choice. I just want to solve this game.

[Titus]

Ok Math,

here's some real talk for you.

NPOM and BM are never voting for each other. BM is gone so far as to imply he has a reason to trust NPOM's claim but not Outer's. Yet, he's claimed VT all over this thread. He wants deference rather than explaining that read.
FL Outer and I found each other very quickly, but with rationales for doing so. FL and I are never voting Outer this game phase. I'm not as locktown as FL is but my only outer scenario also needs NPOM scum.
You and Ranny are never voting each other.
Alch and no elim are the "free agents".

Get to a coalition of 5 that has a chance of hitting scum.

[Titus]

if OutworldER is scum, he has experienced teammates. Would probably imply at least 1 of Titus/Flavor Leaf as scum too.

if OutworldER is scum, he has experienced teammates. Would probably imply at least 1 of Titus/Flavor Leaf as scum too.

Why do you think that?

he was super bombastic and confident on Day 1. I don't think he's the type to go balls-out like that, unless he was confident his team would carry the victory.

Plus I'm thinking experienced scum anyway, given a lesser known player got NKed.

if superbowl, outworld and npom are all town, where the fuck does that leave us? Flavor Leaf and the lurker express?

i wish i hadnt claimed vanilla, or this wouldve been a great game to eat an NK in

*shrug*

I figure it's obvious to scum that I'm a PR at this point anyway so I'll do my proper claim.

I am

an alternate night Doctor.

I'll keep the even or odd to myself for now. Obviously I claimed VT to reduce my chances of getting killed (sue me).

Hence

I don't believe the Bodyguard claim because 2 gated protectives who could actually do double duty on some nights, doesn't seem viable to me.

And

I do believe the alternate night neapolitan claim because I figure there's bound to be an investigative, and the gating tessellates well with my role.

Hence NPOM-town, OWER-scum.

I figure Titus and Flavor Leaf must both be scum too, because they both figured out I was actually a PR and tried to undermine me. Especially from FL, who I know would take a different line as town.

There's very little reason for me to make this as a scum-gambit either, given I clearly wasn't getting elimmed today and I'd be guaranteeing myself as the elim tomorrow. I voted for OWER as soon as he had claimed but was hoping I could elim him without outting myself.

VOTE: OutWorldER

Actions?

On the night I could act, I protected Flavor Leaf.

When did you switch to scumreading Flavor?

lol I'm trying to keep the odd/even bit concealed, this is not a helpful question for that

[Titus]

lol Math come on

I'm an odd-night Doc, so I was out and about on Night 1. And I'll be protecting our neapolitan tonight.

And not the masons because?

[Titus]

Vote Count 1.FINAL

With 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to eliminate.

benhalkum

(7): Alchemist21, Flavor Leaf, superbowl9, Titus, NoPowerOverMe, benhalkum, OutWorldER |

ELIMINATED

Titus

(2): Non lmh, hessian

superbowl9

(2): Rannygazoo, Andresvmb

NoPowerOverMe

(1): Battle Mage

Not Voting

(1): wiyvern

Mod notes:

I am using Thesp's automated votecounter - please notify me if there are any errors.
hessian is V/LA until Sunday.
wiyvern will be prodded in the night. if they do not respond, they risk being replaced.

@Titus

Assume NPOM and BM are scum. Why is BM on NPOM?

Give me a second. This will require a wall because a vote at EoD doesn't say much about either alignment. I think it needs to be explained more thoroughly how scum!BM ends up on scum!NPOM at EoD1. It's something that could happen but that's a weakass response.

[Titus]

Vote Count 1.3

With 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to eliminate.

Rannygazoo

(4): Titus, NoPowerOverMe, Alchemist21, superbowl9 |

L-3

Titus

(2): Battle Mage, Non lmh

superbowl9

(2): Rannygazoo, Andresvmb

benhalkum

(1): OutWorldER

Not Voting

(4): wiyvern, Flavor Leaf, hessian, benhalkum

Deadline:

(expired on 2020-12-03 17:23:44).

Mod notes:

If you would like a 4 day extension due to Thanksgiving please let me know. I am using Thesp's automated votecounter - please notify me if there are any errors.
hessian is V/LA until Sunday.

Vote Count 1.4

With 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to eliminate.

Rannygazoo

(4): Titus, NoPowerOverMe, Alchemist21, superbowl9

Titus

(2): Non lmh, hessian

superbowl9

(2): Rannygazoo, Andresvmb

NoPowerOverMe

(1): Battle Mage

Not Voting

(4): wiyvern, Flavor Leaf, benhalkum, OutWorldER

Deadline:

(expired on 2020-12-07 17:23:44).

Mod notes:

If you would like a 4 day extension due to Thanksgiving please let me know. I am using Thesp's automated votecounter - please notify me if there are any errors.
hessian is V/LA until Sunday.

This is the origin of the vote by Battle Mage. Here, we have a bunch of town driven wagons on town. So scum don't need to do anything. Scum can't really justify putting another vote on Ranny. That would be two votes out of five when they have other wagons to choose from.

Battle Mage removes his vote on me for two reasons, 1) Ranny being town means he doesn't want me too far discredited and 2) if I am right, hessian's vote makes it overloaded. One is sufficient in and of itself.

The question is where does BM put his vote? Given that all the wagons were on town, doing a throw a way distance is not a bad idea.

After Ben imploded, BM didn't have time to but likely would not have moved his vote.

[Titus]

I think NPOM got caught, and Battle Mage is covering.

lol there's no equity in that, I'd be better off bussing and getting a mis-elim the following day using my sweet obvtownness

Too late. You were all in when you voted Outworlder and needed an explanation for that vote.

[Titus]

@Titus why are you not voting NPOM? I think I missed that.

Because I was a) holding out for BM and b) was going to quick hammer if you voted him.

VLA until Sunday

[Titus]

VT

[Titus]

VT

Hey Titus, random weird thought, what if there’s 4 scum and this is Elo?

Before you knee jerk and say we’re scum Ranny and I both demonstrated online.

No. Four scum would dictate no power roles for balance. A two shot roleblocker indicates scum have something to block. We aren't going to have limited shots and a negative utility with four scum.

[Titus]

There isn't one listed. I think you misunderstood. Town isn't going to have a two shot rb without scum having power roles. Otherwise, the roleblocker is negative utility. I can't see town having to deal with four scum, a negative utility, and limited shots.

[Titus]

What’s the negative utility?

The roleblocker in a 4 scum setup. They'd all have to be goons to balance which makes it more likely the rb fucks with town rather than scum.

[Titus]

Because it's hard enough to convince you to actually get off your high horse, sneaking in a hammer on scum might be the only way to do it.

As for distancing away from the names you mentioned, I won't because that's most likely the town team. I have minor Alch reservations, but I'd put Alch town over non elim atm.

You need to get out of your own way Math. You're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. There's no 4 scum situation. Stop trying to fit the facts to your reads and fit your reads to the facts. This is why you frustrate people and are so often wrong.

[Titus]

And what happens when he lurks it out?

Can you just actually do the simple thing and listen? We don't need to blow our last miselimination if you just compromise.

[Titus]

As I said that’s a scum claim if it does that.

I am listening. I am just also doing CYB. If it is NPOM+BM we reveal both today. What’s the issue with forcing two scum to out?

The issue is burning our miselimination. I still have extreme paranoia over the third.

As much as I hate to say it, no elim may not actually be around. It would be so easy to go black and white. Yet we've seen that people not doing what we want doesn't make them scum.

We need that miselimination.

[Titus]

Sure, we can wait for the hopes that one of the scumteam bussed. That's possible but unlikely.

We likely need a mason to get a scum execution off. FYPOV, passing the choice onto non elim isn't good enough. It says you'll lend your mason support behind an outer execution but not a NPOM one.

[Titus]

Did someone say subpoena?

VOTE: NPOM

[Titus]

Which one?

[Titus]

Oh that's child's play. The whole changing claims are the big ones. Whatever got you here though. Not quibbling.

[Titus]

BM, maybe Alch.

[Titus]

Oh that's child's play. The whole changing claims are the big ones. Whatever got you here though. Not quibbling.

It matters because I think it confirms FL+BM.
Rammy isn’t so sure that’s a slip and thinks Outer is the better elim.

It’s quite possible it’s FL BM Outer.

I want your opinion

I don't think that "slip" suggests FL plus BM. I think NPOM is scum and your slip is wrong.

[Titus]

Oh that's child's play. The whole changing claims are the big ones. Whatever got you here though. Not quibbling.

It matters because I think it confirms FL+BM.
Rammy isn’t so sure that’s a slip and thinks Outer is the better elim.

It’s quite possible it’s FL BM Outer.

I want your opinion

I don't think that "slip" suggests FL plus BM. I think NPOM is scum and your slip is wrong.

Then tell me why

The changing claims. The resistances. The lies. The lack of coherent town motivation. The pure OMGUS nature.

[Titus]

Oh that's child's play. The whole changing claims are the big ones. Whatever got you here though. Not quibbling.

It matters because I think it confirms FL+BM.
Rammy isn’t so sure that’s a slip and thinks Outer is the better elim.

It’s quite possible it’s FL BM Outer.

I want your opinion

I don't think that "slip" suggests FL plus BM. I think NPOM is scum and your slip is wrong.

Then tell me why

The changing claims. The resistances. The lies. The lack of coherent town motivation. The pure OMGUS nature.

I get that’s why BM is probably scum. On paper BM makes a good scum and so does NPOM. NKA+game play says you and/or FL

I am asking why that is not a slip.

I think BM is scum, but also think people can refer to themselves in the third person.

[Titus]

Ranny should have the hammer.

There's two ways to play this.

1) We declare who we want to vote by underlining so the mod doesn't mistake it for a vote. When someone gets four votes, that slot casts the first real vote.

2) Ranny determines who votes first.

For the record, I highly doubt a bg and a doc are in the game. Doubly so with all the flipped power. We should start there.

Flavor, which do you think is scum?

[Titus]

For the record, I highly doubt a bg and a doc are in the game. Doubly so with all the flipped power. We should start there.

Let's assume that there is exactly one scum in them.
From your point of view, if you flip one of them, there is 50% to elim scum.
If you flip anyone else, you get 66% to elim scum.

Why are we assuming one scum there? That seems a little heavy handed. Both could be scum.

We do have Ranny as conftown.

So that leaves Flavor/Outer/Alch/you (no elim) as having at least one scum. Even if we suppose two, that is still 50/50. So where do you get the two thirds from?

[Titus]

Wait, I counted outer twice.

[Titus]

I don't necessarily think you kill Mathblade over Ranny unless the team is Titus/Battle Mage.

I do have thoughts on this as well, but I am deliberately sitting on them right now.

[Titus]

@no elim, Are you an alt? Have you played with me and Math before?

[Titus]

Again, I am lazy, but scum Flavor loves to spread chaos.
Is Flavor spreading chaos?

This confirms they are an alt.

I've never seen them before.

They don't need to out themselves, though.

No. I am not big on meta though. Math was big on NKA and knowing just how much experience no elim has with me/math helps determine if they make that kill.

[Titus]

I want to hear who outer and battle healed.

[Titus]

Well shit, we've lost.

[Titus]

I mean the day ends with no one voting scum. I haven't crunched data but it does seem unlikely, especially day 1. I'm opening finished mini normals just for anecdotal evidence and I'm not finding one.

What are you talking about?

[Titus]

Of course it is. Sibling rivalry.

[Titus]

The consensus was it's fine as long as I don't use the quote function. Maybe it's mod-dependent.

Shouldn't be. But I'm not reporting it.

[Titus]

Ranny, I believe Math incorrectly tunneled on both Titus and myself. They're letting their paranoia of both of our scum games effect their entire game.

That's why almost every single thing they've said about my playstyle and what goes through my mind has been incorrect.

Like, sure, you probably aren't going to listen to it, but this is a post game lesson for you.

Watch you and Outer be town and its

BM Alch no elim

[Titus]

Mathblade's pissed off because he thought he should lead town because he was a mason. All Math did was attack a townblock and defer responsibility to other people.