Mini 1626: Duck Tales Mafia (Game Over)


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Post Post #2075 (ISO) » Thu Dec 18, 2014 11:59 am

Post by Total Wreck »

^@ Farside
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Post Post #2076 (ISO) » Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:01 pm

Post by mastin2 »

DOMO wrote:Yeah my problem with the is that bulb pasch and farside all looking a lot better than wreck at this moment.
DOMO, take that fucking snaky stick out of your ass and take a step back and just THINK.

You're confbiasing.
Big-time.
MAJOR FUCKING BIGTIME.

I've presented you with counters to basically every point.
I've shown you that your evidence isn't valid. I've provided plenty of counter-evidence showing that he's town.
Your read hasn't budged an inch.

What does that mean?

Oh, yeah.
He's town. You're biased. Stop being a moron and take a step back to rethink, reevaluate, and come back more objective than you are. Sure, there's objectively-scummy content in Wreck's iso. However, there is also a TON of objective evidence that shows that Wreck's moves are
not
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Post Post #2077 (ISO) » Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:05 pm

Post by mastin2 »

KittyCupCake wrote:Or how he spent large chunks of the day trying to discredit SH?
Not to mention large chunks of TODAY trying to discredit ME!
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Post Post #2078 (ISO) » Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:07 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Perpetual Nonsense wrote:TW's play speaks for itself.
Damn straight it does! I've never seen a stronger indication of townplay in a person!


(Okay, I lied, I have, but not very many! You get the idea; insanely town.)
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Post Post #2079 (ISO) » Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:08 pm

Post by farside22 »

Total Wreck wrote:Sure, because scum totally wants more attention as the game progresses.

Totally makes sense if you don't think about it.

You are judging my alignment by my personality. That's terrible play at best and manipulative scum at worst.



that's my way.
Don't care what you think.


Now back to things that make no sense.

Domo: Can you explain why you have this hard on thing with TW and the Wifom of shiny's death? Shiny had a scum read on many people through out the day that went from A to Z jumps in logic. Why is TW scum above anyone else in regards to shiny if all you are basing it on is wifom.

Also don't you dare fucking give me that post again with Pine/tw talk because that is BS and you know better.
Sarcasm is just a way of saying how stupid you think someone is but in a more polite way.
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Post Post #2080 (ISO) » Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:09 pm

Post by Perpetual Nonsense »

UNVOTE:
Cos Block told me to.
We of the Collective are of one mind.
There is no Bert. There is no Gaiden.
There is only Us
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Post Post #2081 (ISO) » Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:10 pm

Post by farside22 »

I'm going to saying something metaish but it bugs me more then I can ever explain.
Domo being illogical is just weird to me. Even when we were in 80's mafia there was a method to his behavior but all I see is jumps, jumps, jumps, jumps and it is very scattered and off for me.
Sarcasm is just a way of saying how stupid you think someone is but in a more polite way.
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Post Post #2082 (ISO) » Thu Dec 18, 2014 12:12 pm

Post by mastin2 »

Paschendale wrote:That you're already incredibly scummy, produce nothing of value, only focus on defense, have offered no helpful cases, spent most of day 1 just bitching about me attacking you.
Huh. Funny. I seem to recall a player who's shown basically all of these traits, from the scumminess to the nothing of value to the focusing on defense to the lack of cases to the bitching.

...That player wasn't Kitty.
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Post Post #2083 (ISO) » Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:00 pm

Post by DOMO »

It pleases me that farside finds me hard to read. It displeases me that I'm coming across as illogical. I think I'm the logical one. I guess that makes me deluded.

Can you explain why you have this hard on thing with TW and the Wifom of shiny's death?


You already know why I think wreck is scum. If you can't accept it, that's not my problem. I'm not gonna stop thinking he's scum just because other people like you and mastin are telling me I'm illogical or that I have things up my arse. I have nothing up my arse. I just think wreck is scum, and I'm stubborn. I trust my reads more than I trust mastin's. She can shout all she likes about how wreck is town. She's either scum, or she doesn't know wreck's alignment.

You think I'm being illogical farside. Well, either I'm locked on to scum, or if I've created a wagon that has generated a great deal of information. See mastin's #1980. Which, incidentally, is what wreck should be doing. If he thinks I'm town then he should be looking at those who are sheeping me. But he's leaving mastin to do all his fighting. I don't see the town motivation there.
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Post Post #2084 (ISO) » Thu Dec 18, 2014 1:37 pm

Post by Paschendale »

mastin2 wrote:My point exactly.


No! That's not your point! That's the opposite of your point! What the hell are you doing!?

It seems like you're trying to hand it off to me and refuse responsibility for your read on her.


That's what I just accused you of? Seriously, Mastin, what the hell is up with you this game? Did you have a stroke or something?

mastin2 wrote:Okay. He's town because of my strong gut townread, and while my strong gut scumreads have been known to be wrong on occasions (still more accurate than not), my strong gut townreads NEVER are. But 7-for-7 + Appeal-to-Authority aside, he's town because Wisdom said so, and even died saying so rather consistently especially if Pine flipped scum...which as we know, he did. He's also town because that hammer was at worst null, and I think it was actually incredibly town in nature. Town players are very, very, VERY frequently impulsive, and few fit this description moreso than our friend Wreck, here. As scum, you generally don't want to look bad. As scum, you generally want to avoid drawing attention to yourself, and regardless of Pine's alignment, the sudden hammer did exactly that. Plus, it's the manner in which the hammer was done. What towncredit would be earned from the sudden hammer? Basically none. What would the cost of it be? Losing their encryptor. What does that mean? In a risk-reward analysis, scum-Wreck has little to gain and quite a bit to lose by pulling the stunt. Thus, he wouldn't.

Wreck is also town because of the way he has interacted with others. There is not a hint of manipulation present in his posting. Instead, all I see is impulsive moves made without thought, without caution, without regards to scum needing to control the game. Yes, this is something Wreck is going to do to some extent regardless of his alignment...but like this? Heck no. There'd be a sign. A tell, that all of this was in some manner orchestrated, that he was faking it. None has shown.

His interactions with others show a willingness to get into a fight which if he was scum he knew there'd be a significant chance of losing. Examples? Fighting Shiny, who got nightkilled last night, and fighting DOMO, who is one of the stronger voices in the town right now. He's willingly entering and even encouraging these battles, which is again borderline suicide for a scum player, but quite natural coming from a paranoid, irrational town player who doesn't take for granted that they
are
facing off against town. In other words, because Wreck thinks that whoever he's squaring off against could be scum, he feels no hesitation to fight them even if he thinks he's on the losing end of it, because if they are scum, he'd be vindicated and would have bragging rights to having caught the obvscum who was "blatant" yet invisible to all of us.

If that wasn't enough, the case against him is absolute crap, and I've shot down basically most of the points. (The few I haven't, Wreck himself has countered plenty adequately enough.) Throw in everyone's willingness to lynch him, AND given that he's done plenty of trolling which I simply don't think he'd do with one scumbuddy already dead, and Wreck is town.

There.


1. Gut reads are bullshit and there's no reason whatsoever to take that at face value, not even from you. I don't care about your record for accuracy. I care whether or not you make a good argument now and whether or not I can trust you not to be lying. Neither of those are particularly going your way right now.

2. Wisdom said a lot of crazy shit and accused a lot more people of being scum than can be scum. This is just another appeal to authority, only it's a different authority. Again, I don't see any reason to think that they were right, and since they can't update any of their positions based on new information, I hardly think that a day 1 read is going to be better than later ones.

3. Scum can be just as impulsive as town. Good scum often are. For exactly this reason. Likewise, quickhammering is traditionally viewed as a scumtell, but town do it all the time, too. Both are pretty null.

4. Your risk-reward bit assumes that scum never make mistakes or calculate risk and reward wrong. And that everyone will attribute the same risks and rewards to an action that you will. Not likely.

5. "Not a hint of manipulation"? That's a pretty bold statement. Tell me, what exactly constitutes manipulation? How about a technically correct case on a townie? Again, this is entirely based on an assumption that scum play calculating, cautious games. And yet a lot of reckless behavior, like quickhammering, is often considered a scumtell. So which is it? You're assuming a lot of absoultes and a lot of rote play. We both know that's not how it goes.

The rest of it goes on basically the same. It's just an assertion that Wreck wouldn't play aggressively or make noise if he were scum. Some of the best scumgames I've ever seen involved a lot of noisy and aggressive play.

And the last bit, that they would change tactics in light of losing Pine. Gee, that seems like it would be a much more obvious scumtell than backing off would. A town player would have no reason to back off, only scum would. So, in order to maintain the illusion of being town, Wreck must stay the course.

Everything you're offering is a null tell at most, Mastin.

mastin2 wrote:Not to mention large chunks of TODAY trying to discredit ME!


I'm not discrediting you. If anything, I'm consistently saying how good you usually are. I'm just pointing out how you're wrong here. And in reply to Kitty's bullshit bit about me trying to discredit Shiny, Farside says it best.

farside22 wrote:Shiny had a scum read on many people through out the day that went from A to Z jumps in logic.


I didn't need to discredit them. They did a fine job of it themselves, and I was certainly going to disagree with their absurd scumread on me.

mastin2 wrote:Huh. Funny. I seem to recall a player who's shown basically all of these traits, from the scumminess to the nothing of value to the focusing on defense to the lack of cases to the bitching.


If you're talking about me, I'd have to ask why you're suddenly lying. I've pushed several cases, offered lots of reasons, am currently dismantling your bad towncase on TW, and the only reason that my day 1 content could possibly look like defense is because my scumreads all decided to try to lynch me. They failed. I'm town. You're not making any sense.

DOMO wrote:It pleases me that farside finds me hard to read. It displeases me that I'm coming across as illogical. I think I'm the logical one. I guess that makes me deluded.


I think a lot of what you've said has made sense and I agree with a lot of it. But what do you think of Kitty? I think it's insanely obvious that she's scum and I don't know why others don't see it as well. Do you?
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Post Post #2085 (ISO) » Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:05 pm

Post by KittyCupCake »

Paschendale wrote:I agree with her analysis of your voting patterns.

Paschendale wrote:No, it made sense to me without Bulba scum.

And again, in what way? -Because her analysis was based on the premise of bulba being scum. If you don't think Bulba is scum, that whole line of reasoning falls apart. -So what, exactly, do you agree with?

For those of you out there not paying attention, this is pasch, again, spewing bullshit he can't backup.
Paschendale wrote:In 2031, Kitty is pointing out how she tried to fly under the radar on D1 as if it were a positive. She avoided interaction with as many players as possible, only suspected me, and just parroted Shiny's attacks on me. Pine not talking to her is "very telling". Uh, what does it tell us? It tells me that Pine wasn't interacting with his partner.

Why is no one reading pasch's posts?

2031 is analysis of NM/Rom's interactions.
Paschendale wrote:She asked twice "Why did shiny get NK'd if he wasn't right?" We all know that speculating about night kills is a futile endeavor. Sometimes they're just random. But she's trying to assume things we can't possibly know in order to justify her preconceived conclusion.

Yeah, that was Domo. But good job on this combo of not reading/misrepping.
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Post Post #2086 (ISO) » Thu Dec 18, 2014 2:58 pm

Post by DOMO »

Paschendale wrote:I think a lot of what you've said has made sense and I agree with a lot of it. But what do you think of Kitty? I think it's insanely obvious that she's scum and I don't know why others don't see it as well. Do you?


I don't see her as obvscum, far from it. Having scanned her ISO, I could probably argue a case either way.

Still, I'd sooner lynch her than you.
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Post Post #2087 (ISO) » Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:21 pm

Post by Total Wreck »

So tired I almost forgot.

VOTE: Bulbazak

I like Farside for his buddy, but my read is stronger on Bulbazak.
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Post Post #2088 (ISO) » Thu Dec 18, 2014 3:42 pm

Post by Paschendale »

KittyCupCake wrote:And again, in what way? -Because her analysis was based on the premise of bulba being scum. If you don't think Bulba is scum, that whole line of reasoning falls apart. -So what, exactly, do you agree with?

For those of you out there not paying attention, this is pasch, again, spewing bullshit he can't backup.


It wasn't based on it. It included it. But that your votes haven't been conducive to any helpful scumhunting doesn't require Bulba to be scum. That your votes are strategic rather than inquisitive doesn't require Bulba to be scum. That Mastin is reading more into it than I am means that Mastin is screwing up, not me. Do you have anything honest to say?

Yeah, that was Domo. But good job on this combo of not reading/misrepping.


2038 is you saying it. My mistake that the first one was Domo. Are you misattributing quotes in order to lie about them? The only bullshit is coming from you.

And again, the only thing that Kitty has any effort for is defending herself. Does she have any theories? No. She goes along with a few people who she thinks can help her and attacks her detractors.

DOMO wrote:I don't see her as obvscum, far from it. Having scanned her ISO, I could probably argue a case either way.

Still, I'd sooner lynch her than you.


Ugh... Fine. TW today. Kitty tomorrow. It ultimately doesn't matter which one we kill first, since I'm pretty sure they're both scum.

VOTE: TW
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Post Post #2089 (ISO) » Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:35 pm

Post by KittyCupCake »

Spoiler: Wall of Case
First, is pasch handwaving suspicion against him early. Or, as pasch would put it, "discouraging scumhunting:"
Paschendale wrote:Bulba thinks everything I say is scummy.

Next is me,
disputing
Bulba's assertion that pasch's RVS joke post was scummy, and pasch overdefensively reacting:
Paschendale wrote:
KittyCupCake wrote:The first line feels a bit... forced? -Maybe? But that's not uncommon in RVS.

It wasn't "forced". It was a joke about the theme. It's not even based on my character.

Here is the bullshit used to justify him opportunistically jumping on my wagon:
Paschendale wrote:Cupcake was asking TW leading questions in order to illicit specific responses to justify the switch.

Objection! Leading the witness! It's a tactic so common and so duplicitous that it is prohibited in a courtroom.

And next, his explanation when asked to clarify where exactly these "leading questions" were:
Paschendale wrote:It's not as simple as "look, this sentence is formed in such a way as to be cooperative rather than adversarial!" It's the tone of their whole exchange from 128 to 183, culminating in 208 and 211, giving TW a chance to make himself (it's basically all just House, right?) look reasonable, without bringing out anything resembling new information, and giving them a chance to agree. There's nothing probing or informative from anything they discussed, just a whole lot of nodding at each other and going "oh yes, that's just fine", despite the things they're talking about not actually being fine. CupCake offers no insight or real analysis, and TW offers nothing that wasn't obvious from his first few posts.

Even if this exchange isn't literally in the form of "and then he told you that he was going to shoot, didn't he?", it's still serving the same function and creating the same result as a more overt version.

Okay. I'm going to stop here for a moment and assume that no one has ever actually bothered to check the unlinked, unquoted posts that pasch referenced above. If so, that's lazy, and probably exactly what pasch was counting on, but whatever, I'll link them below for your convenience. Even if you don't care that the most precise pasch could give as an exact explanation was a massive swath of 20 posts, or that in the last line, pasch flat out admits that the "leading questions" he was screaming about don't actually exist, you should still read the following linked posts (the TW/KCC exchange from 128-183) to see how believable Pasch's assessment was:

128-me, talking to mastin
129-TW, talking about mastin
155-me, questioning the motive of 129
157-TW, responding to but not really answering 155
159-Me, reasking 155
160-TW, being frustrating
161-me, frustrated
164-me, voting TW and rereasking
166-TW, not caring
167-me, clarifying my question in case he didn't understand what I asked
170-me, annoyed at TWs attitude
171-TW, reacting to 170
172-me, responding to 171
173-me, continuing 172
174-TW, repsonding to 172
179-me, trying to decipher TWs attitude
180-TW, replying to 179
183-me, meeting TW on his own terms in hopes of actually getting an answer to 155

208-TW, acknowledging 183
211-Me, moving on

And moving on, we have pasch subtly towning pine:
Paschendale wrote:
Shiny Hydreigon wrote:and then after he has flipped scum you have these wonderful reactions to my push from Pasche and Pine to tell you who the buddies are

Yes, we should lynch the town players who call out bad cases. That's a great way to win.

And 1000 posts later, less subtly towning pine:
Paschendale wrote:I definitely think you're barking up the wrong tree with Pine, Mastin. I don't see anything that stands out as scum from him.

More towning pine here. Also, pay attention to how wordy the explanations are for each read:
Paschendale wrote:Mastin keeps climbing the scum ladder. Shiny is probably just being egotistical. There really might not be any malice there. TW and Kitty are doing nothing to change my scumreads on them. Pine seems town to me, or at least nothing has pinged scum. His overall tone makes him maybe null/town. Some of his ideas are good, some of them are bad, but they seem justified based on the actual content posted. Domo is pretty obvtown. GiF looks town so far. Bulba and Aronis both have good content and make good arguments. Farside, NM, and Doubleslap I don't have a strong read on one way or the other.

I want to switch my vote to Mastin, but TW being on that wagon for so long makes me hesitate. Gotta reread TW and see if maybe I'm wrong about them, or if maybe they're bussing her.

Yes, he actually spent 3 full sentences there fence sitting on pine.

And here's just a small bit of pasch totally-not-at-all discrediting SH:
Paschendale wrote:Now, if you have a point to make or a case on Bulba, please share it. Otherwise, if you're not going to do something constructive, just shut up and sheep the players who are.

Paschendale wrote:To Mastin, Shiny, and others: That's a whole lot of tearing down of other wagons going on, and apparently suspecting people for merely being active and pushing cases you don't like, but maybe you could offer your own theories instead of just puttering around.

Paschendale wrote:Kinda agree with this assessment of what Shiny and a few others are doing here. It's not really helping the group accomplish anything to just make unfounded assertions. There is no reason to believe anyone when they don't offer reasons.

Paschendale wrote:Criticize that stance if you like, but don't waste your time on the false narrative that Shiny and Mastin and trying to spin about me.

Paschendale wrote:I don't see him as scum. I just see him as a jerk and an idiot.

Paschendale wrote:It's definitely anti-town play, in that it is not conducive to the group choosing the correct lynches for good reasons, but it looks like bullheaded town that can't see past its own ego, rather than something duplicitous.

Paschendale wrote:No idea about Shiny. All that yammering and bullshit can come from town or scum. Some of it looks genuine, some of it looks completely fabricated, and a lot of it just looks ego-driven.

And then there's this gem:
Paschendale wrote:This is definitely a typical day 1 push on me. I rub people the wrong way, their guts tell them that I'm scum, the people I accuse decide that I absolutely must be scum and will stop at nothing to see me die... and I almost always flip town.

Seriously. Reread that a few times. I'll wait.
...
...
No, read it at least one more time, I want you to have a firm grasp on what that says before we move on.

Ready? -Because then there is this gem from 500 pages earlier:
Paschendale wrote:So, other than Kitty and TW wanting to vote me because I went after them (which they will deny, but will offer nothing besides my attacks on them for evidence), anyone got anything useful to say?

And here's the later quote again, with some important bits bolded:
Paschendale wrote:This is definitely a
typical
day 1 push on me. I
rub people the wrong way
, their
guts tell them that I'm scum
, the
people I accuse decide that I absolutely must be scum
and will stop at nothing to see me die... and I almost always flip town.


So, let's go through the possible motivation for these two posts. If 1216 is sincere, then why, in 725, is pasch pointing out me and TW wanting to vote him like it's something meaningful -shouldn't that be exactly what he would expect from a "typical" day 1? Also, if pasch's reads were sincere on me and TW, and he thought his wagon was so scum-driven, why was he describing it with the bolded terms that heavily imply his wagon is town driven.

The more reasonable explanation is that 1216 is an AtE to get us off of his wagon. "A gut read like this is typical, but I just rubbed you the wrong way."

And now, pasch's amazing TW case:
Paschendale wrote:VOTE: Total Wreck

Seems the scummiest out of the 5 people talking.

Okay, that's not much yet, but it's RVSish.
Paschendale wrote:Calling himself anti-town, complaining about "common internet sentence structure", voting "because [they] felt like it". Looks like ways to distance themselves from the responsibilities of their actions. Whatever they do, they don't want us taking them seriously because of it.

"Distancing from responsibility" isn't a bad reason. (1)
Paschendale wrote:
Total Wreck wrote:And you seriously think scum would fly out of the gate with a huge neon sign above their head for your convenience?

Wtf do we need investigative rules for? We have Pasch! :roll:


Sure. Exactly because it's seen as something someone wouldn't do. Or it's not intentional. Strange that you're taking a page 2 vote so seriously. And that you're discouraging scumhunting.

I think "discouraging scumhunting" was laying it on a little thick there, but otherwise, for inside of 70 posts, this is a decent case so far. (2)
Paschendale wrote:
Total Wreck wrote:Nah, not really.

Meta House, I don't care about pressure votes. Or real ones, for that matter.


By all means, get yourself lynched stupidly and cost town information and time.

That's an interesting stance to have about a scumread, but pasch talks this way by default, apparently, so okay.
Paschendale wrote:I voted TW because he was the scummiest this far, taking into account the fact that only half the players had posted at all and that we were only a few pages in. It wasn't a random vote. It was serious, but it was based on very limited information and was, as it should be, set aside for a better informed vote later.

Okay, so his TW case isn't that firm so far, I guess the best parts are to follow.
Paschendale wrote:
Total Wreck wrote:Jump on the Shiny Hydra wagon and you can likely live until D2, Pasch.

You are on your own after that.


I don't see him as scum. I just see him as a jerk and an idiot. You, however, look scummier for trying to threaten me in order to get my vote.

Threatening for a vote is reasonable to suspect. (3)
Paschendale wrote:So, other than Kitty and TW wanting to vote me because I went after them (which they will deny, but will offer nothing besides my attacks on them for evidence), anyone got anything useful to say?

Even though OMGUS is part of a typical Day 1 for pasch, and something he expects from any townie he accuses, I guess this is kinda a point against TW, maybe. (4?)
Paschendale wrote:Self voting is completely unacceptable.

VOTE: Total Wreck

Well, here we go, things are serious now. Self-voting is bad. (5)
Paschendale wrote:Switching back to my second highest scum read because they did one of the few things that's truly a hot button for me is "opportunistic"? No, it would be opportunistic if I used this to swap to someone I hadn't suspected before, as opposed to one of my strongest scum reads.

Hmm.
Hmmmmm......

So, TW was pasch's second highest read. One of his strongest reads. And pasch has mentioned... a total of 5 points against him. Actually, we don't count the self-vote, because TW was apparently the second highest read before that, so... 4 points. Of those 4, one was the OMGUS which pasch later claims is something he expects from any townie he pushes since he tends to rub people the wrong way. And 2 others were from the first 70 posts of the game. The last point,
one
point, is the only real point mentioned against TW in the 900 posts in between.

TW is the second most frequent poster in this game, he's pasch's second strongest read, and pasch mentions 1 thing against him over 900 posts.

Yep, this is totally legit. No way pasch is just jumping opportunistically here.

Oh, and here's the TW case from Day 2:
Paschendale wrote:I can definitely buy Kitty and TW as the remaining scum. Both from my assessments of them on day 1 and from the arguments offered by Mastin and Domo.

The same 5 points from D1... plus barning domo.
Paschendale wrote:TW's hammer, as I said earlier, could have been a move to silence the discussion so that Pine couldn't leak anything or to stop us from discussing the situation more and reaching a conclusion they didn't want us to reach.

And also the hammer
could have been
scummy.

And this stunningly thorough case is from the same player who brought us these words of wisdom:
Paschendale wrote:Because I have no reason to believe you if you say "we should lynch ____" if you don't give a good explanation as to why. You're no different than a crazy conspiracy theorist standing on a street corner shouting about aliens putting tracking devices in the drinking water. The rest of us, who base our opinions on facts and evidence, laugh at people like that.

-Opinions based on facts and evidence: like having 1 point over a span of 900 posts against TW, his second strongest read, and the second highest poster; like being unable to provide evidence of "leading questions" which were used as reasoning for a vote, and like now being unable to provide facts or evidence for how he agrees with mastin's VC analysis.

And now I sit back and wait for no one to even read this, except for maybe pasch who will pick out a choice point or two to misrep and focus his defense on, ignoring everything else.
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Post Post #2090 (ISO) » Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:43 pm

Post by KittyCupCake »

Paschendale wrote:It wasn't based on it. It included it. But that your votes haven't been conducive to any helpful scumhunting doesn't require Bulba to be scum. That your votes are strategic rather than inquisitive doesn't require Bulba to be scum. That Mastin is reading more into it than I am means that Mastin is screwing up, not me. Do you have anything honest to say?

I'm still waiting to see which votes and reasons you agree with and why.

Paschendale wrote:2038 is you saying it.

To
Domo
. In response to
Domo
. Criticizing
Domo
's stance and the disconnect between what he was saying and what he was actually doing. That was not me seriously proposing that; I was countering
Domo
's line of reasoning. This is really, really obvious for anyone who was actually reading that part of the game.

This is either a blatant misrep or one of the dumbest things I have ever seen.

BTW, I notice no response to your other bullshit point regarding 2031.
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Post Post #2091 (ISO) » Thu Dec 18, 2014 5:58 pm

Post by KittyCupCake »

Oh, I missed this. This is pasch's explanation for the TW read, after I called him out for not having any reasoning behind it:
Paschendale wrote:Anything CAN come from town, you idiot. We both know this. There is no magical thing that only one alignment does. Playing dumb and pretending that this game is a math equation or something black and white just reinforces how un-town your comments consistently are. You intentionally ignore anything beyond the superficial when it can be used against you. The main point of everything you're posting is about your own image. The only thing even resembling scumhunting you've done is attack your detractors, mainly me. You're doing nothing to help town win this game, and only working to improve your own position. Looking even an inch beyond the surface of your posts makes this obvious. That is why you're scum. Not because of RVS stuff, but because, a thousand posts into the game, nothing has changed. You keep doing the same crap you were doing on page 1.

1) Consistently untown comments (which he never before mentioned, responded to, called out, and never really specifies)
2) Ignoring all but the superficial (which he never before mentioned, responded to, called out, and never really specifies)
3) Posting only for image (which he never before mentioned, responded to, called out, and never really specifies)
4) Only OMGUS, mainly pasch (we've been over this iffy point)
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Post Post #2092 (ISO) » Thu Dec 18, 2014 6:00 pm

Post by KittyCupCake »

So, yeah, basically a bunch of vague garbage from Mr. Facts and Evidence.
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Post Post #2093 (ISO) » Thu Dec 18, 2014 6:29 pm

Post by KittyCupCake »

And now, the interaction portion of our case. These are the confrontational situations pasch has been in:

If you want, you can just open them all and skim for the green -that alone gives a pretty good feel for how pasch has generally handled confrontations this game.
Spoiler: TW
Paschendale wrote:
Total Wreck wrote:And you seriously think scum would fly out of the gate with a huge neon sign above their head for your convenience?

Wtf do we need investigative rules for? We have Pasch! :roll:


Sure. Exactly because it's seen as something someone wouldn't do. Or it's not intentional. Strange that you're taking a page 2 vote so seriously. And that you're
discouraging scumhunting.

Paschendale wrote:
Total Wreck wrote:Jump on the Shiny Hydra wagon and you can likely live until D2, Pasch.

You are on your own after that.


I don't see him as scum. I just see him as a
jerk and an idiot
. You, however, look scummier for trying to threaten me in order to get my vote.

Paschendale wrote:
Total Wreck wrote:I've been there since game start for reasons he admits can come from town.

Anything CAN come from town, you
idiot
. We both know this. There is no magical thing that only one alignment does.
Playing dumb
and pretending that this game is a math equation or something black and white just reinforces how un-town your comments consistently are. You intentionally ignore anything beyond the superficial when it can be used against you. The main point of everything you're posting is about your own image. The only thing even resembling scumhunting you've done is attack your detractors, mainly me. You're doing nothing to help town win this game, and only working to improve your own position. Looking even an inch beyond the surface of your posts makes this obvious. That is why you're scum. Not because of RVS stuff, but because, a thousand posts into the game, nothing has changed. You keep doing the same crap you were doing on page 1.

Stupid
fucking one-liners like this that ignore the fundamentals of the game just piss me off. Stop lying. Stop wasting everyone's time. Stop
spewing nonsense
. Just admit that you're scum and that you're just trying to protect yourself and we can lynch you and then kill your buddies. For fuck's sake, it's getting old! I'm tired of reading all this
fucking noise
you keep making. You and Shiny both. You think just because you drown everyone else out that we won't see it? None of us are as stupid as you seem to think we are.

Spoiler: Bulba
Paschendale wrote:Bulba thinks everything I say is scummy.

Spoiler: KCC
Paschendale wrote:
KittyCupCake wrote:
KittyCupCake wrote:I have a feeling most judges wouldn't sustain that, which makes me think your initial "objection" was disingenuous; especially considering that, when asked to provide evidence for your claim, you just posted a paragraph about how you can't.
I like how pasch's response to this is to ignore it and hope no one notices that I called him out on making things up.


I ignored it because it's
simply wrong
. Your "feeling" is wrong, your assessment of my response is wrong, your assertion of information from your interaction with TW is wrong. And I don't really care about your objections to my case on you. I care about other people's objections, but I really doubt that I'm ever going to convince you to vote for yourself. I don't make cases on people by arguing with them. I talk about them. I argue with other people about them. I often don't respond to the scum suspect. They're scum. Why should I care what they say?

Paschendale wrote:
KittyCupCake wrote:Giving advise to a scumread? On how to avoid being lynched?

Yeah. Okay. That makes sense from town.


Are you
even capable of reading
the actual intent in something and not just making up your own? That was criticism, not advice. But let's be honest, you decided I would be scum from the moment I made a case on you and everything will get spun to push this mislynch.

----------------

In the mean time, the actually contributing town players have 6 days to put together a wagon that will actually be on scum. Let's get to work on that. Domo wagon? Not exciting. Mastin wagon? Meh. Romi wagon? Seems like the scumdriven alternative to mislynching me. I'm not buying it. A Shiny, Kitty, or TW wagon? Excellent ideas.

Spoiler: Shiny
Paschendale wrote:
Shiny Hydreigon wrote:@house or he just thought youre both town. just as possible

bulba pls hang

R~


I'm not seeing it. Disagreeing with you doesn't make someone scum. Now, if you have a point to make or a case on Bulba, please share it. Otherwise, if you're not going to do something constructive,
just shut up
and sheep the players who are.

Paschendale wrote:Kitty's still my strongest read. Her interactions with the
idiotic
attacks on me continue the problems I have with her play. It's too eager to please, too intent on maneuvering allies, and completely indifferent to making good points. No idea about Shiny. All that
yammering and bullshit
can come from town or scum. Some of it looks genuine, some of it looks completely fabricated, and a lot of it just looks ego-driven. There's definitely some scum hiding among the less chatty players, like Aronis or Doubleslap. They are examples, not suspects. They need to talk more. For example, I like Aronis' readlist, but it needs some explanation.

Paschendale wrote:
Shiny Hydreigon wrote:Pasche: I'm willing to forget everything you've done and start anew. Can you tell me what your scumreads are right now and exactly why? I want to see your full thought process behind each read.

R~


No you aren't, especially since
you don't seem to understand
what I've done thus far. You know who my scumreads are (one of them is you), and you know why. What no one seems to know, however, is why you're voting for me. You're the one who
needs to rehabilitate their image
, not me. The wagon on me is the most obvious mislynch in a long time, is really really obviously scumdriven, and
nobody who's actually paying attention
is going to join it. But you'll be called to answer for it, and you should probably start actually contributing useful content instead of just
making noise
.

Paschendale wrote:Shiny, you
can't seriously believe you've contributed anything of value to this game
. Only, I don't seem to be relying on zingers and one liners to prove my points. I have substance. You just keep
making noise
.

Paschendale wrote:
Shiny Hydreigon wrote:scum reads dont have to be explained, nor understood. She scumreads bulba, and thats it.


If you can't justify a scumread, I have no reason whatsoever to think that you aren't lying about it. If I think you're lying about it, I certainly won't vote along with you, and will vote for you instead. If you don't justify a read, there's no reason to think you're right, and no one should vote along with you, and so you aren't actually pushing to get your suspects lynched. That means you aren't actually trying to help town win the game. Therefore, you're scum and should be lynched. Don't like it? Then justify your fucking positions.

Shiny Hydreigon wrote:uhm... what? gut reads are a thing.


No. Gut reads are impressions based on someone's tone and the inability to articulate that. Once you have actual content to go by and are past page 5, you should be done with such shallow reasons and should have better ones to justify a scumread. Like the fact that there is
absolutely no reason to believe a single word
you or your partners have said this whole game, because the only justification you seem to be able to give is to shout louder than other people.

When town allows lynches to be chosen by people
based on bluster
, there is only one outcome - scum victories.

You need to
Shut. The. Fuck. Up.
All you are doing is helping scum win.

Paschendale wrote:
Shiny Hydreigon wrote:That wasn't the point, Pasche. I guess you're not even reading now. I wasn't talking about me explaining my reads. I was explaining how farside is full of shit. But sure, look the other way.


Shiny Hydreigon wrote:This was about mastin not explaining her bulba scumread like farside is claiming, it had nothing to do with me or my scumreads. But keep failing at reading by all means.


You and Mastin are both doing it. It applies equally to both of you. You're just the one being
obstinate and bullheaded
about it. Mastin is doing it is weird. You are
actively a detriment
to town choosing the best lynches.

Spoiler: mastin
Paschendale wrote:Townread on Doubleslap and scumreads on Domo and Romitelli make
very little sense
, especially if only their initial posts are cited. Shiny pokemon looks pretty on the ball, though.
Paschendale wrote:
mastin2 wrote: *points to Rom miniwagon*
*points to readslist*

...Yep.


Unfounded
reads, not much of a wagon.
Not very helpful.
You're usually much more persuasive and don't just make excuses for not being convincing. What's different this time?

mastin2 wrote:READ THIS.

Fucking read it.

Keep in mind. Paschendale is VOTING Total Wreck at the time.

And says this.

Do I need to spell out the implications of Pasch's wording here? About costing the town information and time by letting themselves (Total Wreck) get lynched? When voting them, especially?


My default way of talking to everyone is as if they're town. You've seen me do this. Especially when criticizing someone for bad play, rather than for something actually scummy. You usually do a lot better than
this kind of crap.

Paschendale wrote:
mastin2 wrote:(In fact, I'm deeply restraining myself from doing exactly that.)
Stop being so
dramatic
. Instead of all this
grandiose oratory
, just make a simple case or two. Give me some reason to believe that your reads are correct. I'm certainly not going to do it just based on how
loudly
you claim to be right. Convince me to vote along with you. That's the one thing you're
completely failing
to do this game.

Paschendale wrote:
mastin2 wrote:Seriously. The scum in all likelihood are laughing their asses off at how much townVtown fighting just happened between Shiny and TW.

...HECK.
Even if I were to entertain the idea one of them were scum.
I'd say the same thing, they're still laughing their asses off, specifically because everyone thinks it's townVtown meaning that if it isn't, the town in the pair of two has basically backfired their chances of being convincing. (But it is townVtown.)


Everyone doesn't think that. Basically only you, Shiny, TW, and Kitty think that was town vs town. The rest of us aren't handing out townreads based on volume of posts.

Spoiler: Other
Paschendale wrote:So, other than Kitty and TW wanting to vote me because I went after them (which they will deny, but will offer nothing besides my attacks on them for evidence), anyone got
anything useful to say
? How about the
blabbermouths shut the hell up
for a little while and let Doubleslap, Farside, Romitelli, and Aronis put out a few thoughts. Or we can just
waste more time and energy
while a few loud players scream at each other and yet manage to say very little except about their own egos.

Paschendale wrote:
DOMO wrote:The language of this post makes me think that maybe pasch is scum. "idiotic attacks", "yammering and bullshit", "ego-driven"... this I suspect is the frustration of someone caught on d1, maybe for the wrong reasons. Instead of attacking the arguments, he's attacking the people.

There are no arguments to attack. TW and Kitty have both stated outright that they're just OMGUS'ing me. The best explanation TW could offer was "the way I accused him". There's nothing specific, and no reason why anything I said would be scum-motivated instead of town-motivated, especially since this all happened on the first few pages of the game. That is pretty
idiotic,
and a lot of Shiny's content has been
ego-driven
. They just demand that the others follow them without explanation. There's no discussion, no explanation, and no scumhunting process. It's just assertions and then outrage when those assertions are questioned. Mastin has been doing the same thing. They just yell at each other and threaten people to force compliance.

I'm one of the few people giving reasons for my suspicions and yes, I'm frustrated that so many others won't. It inhibits the ability of the group to choose good lynches.

Spoiler: Pine
Paschendale wrote:
Pine wrote:^Opportunistic

I haven't really been buying the Pasch wagon, but that's a big point in its favor

Switching back to my second highest scum read because they did one of the few things that's truly a hot button for me is "opportunistic"? No, it would be opportunistic if I used this to swap to someone I hadn't suspected before, as opposed to one of my strongest scum reads.

Paschendale wrote:
Pine wrote:I don't like either of the main wagons. Mastin is playing to her Town game, and there isn't a legitimate case against Not Mafia

I don't really like how you're trying to limit discussion to those two wagons though

No... ugh. I'm just trying to get us to focus so we don't end up with a last minute deadline lynch. I'd rather we actually get an agreement that people support than simply one we compromise for because we're about to run out of time.

Notice anything about that pine interaction? -There's no name calling, dismissing, or claws. It's just a soft, gentle push, like pasch wants to refute the points, but doesn't want to make pine look bad in the process. Unlike, you know, how he goes out of his way to make everyone else sound like shit.
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Post Post #2094 (ISO) » Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:35 pm

Post by Not_Mafia »

Waiting for mod to show up and hopefully modkill House so we can move on from this to either DOMO gloating or ending this tunnel. There's still a lot I dislike about TW from D1 but late D1 and today looks like frustrated town to me, the later parts frustrated town resigned to his lynch.

Timing of Pasch's vote noted
Also, what is Not_Mafia doing? This is some of the worst play I’ve ever seen.
I will SEARCH for games with you and N_M to help you policy him.
I can't remember the last N_M post that wasn't bland, unimaginative and lame. Some shitposters are at least somewhat funny. You are the epitomy of the type of poster that nobody would miss if you were to suddenly disappear. You never add anything of value.
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Post Post #2095 (ISO) » Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:56 am

Post by Total Wreck »

^ Smart Cookie
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Post Post #2096 (ISO) » Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:58 am

Post by Total Wreck »

Also, Kitty makes a point that is hard to ignore.

VOTE: Pasch
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Post Post #2097 (ISO) » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:06 am

Post by Total Wreck »

Not_Mafia wrote:Waiting for mod to show up and hopefully modkill House so we can move on from this to either DOMO gloating or ending this tunnel. There's still a lot I dislike about TW from D1 but late D1 and today looks like frustrated town to me, the later parts frustrated town resigned to his lynch.

Timing of Pasch's vote noted


If I'm modkilled, that means I'm scum and gave away the entire team.

If I'm scum and gave away the entire team, I won't just be modkilled, I'll most likely be banned.

If the entire team has been outed, why are they not bitching about it?
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Post Post #2098 (ISO) » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:09 am

Post by Not_Mafia »

Claiming scum with others is modkillable regardless of actual alignment
Also, what is Not_Mafia doing? This is some of the worst play I’ve ever seen.
I will SEARCH for games with you and N_M to help you policy him.
I can't remember the last N_M post that wasn't bland, unimaginative and lame. Some shitposters are at least somewhat funny. You are the epitomy of the type of poster that nobody would miss if you were to suddenly disappear. You never add anything of value.
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Post Post #2099 (ISO) » Fri Dec 19, 2014 2:14 am

Post by Total Wreck »

I didn't see that in the rules, care to point it out?
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