Mini Normal 2095 - Game Over!

[Luca Blight]

Lol. Explain why I don't claim tracker at mass given that icon would be the reason I make it to lylo. I'd have to fake one night action.

You literally said earlier that if you were scum you would claim VT during mass-claim and then claim something else during LYLO.

You have made it up as you’ve gone along, basically.

[Luca Blight]

And you wanted to be absolutely sure no-one else was a PR before claiming Tracker, which is why you kept saying if anyone was holding their true role back that they should reveal it.

[Luca Blight]

Your last sentence raises another good point; if you were Tracker, why weren't you more suspicious after Gobble came in claiming N3 BG? Others in the game, such as Icon and Klick, TR Gobble because there was only one other claimed PR, but you would have known this not to be the case.

And please stop saying that I'm screaming WIFOM when literally everything you've said today has been WIFOM. Stop saying that Scum!Tchill would do this or wouldn't do that - it's worthless, as I said before. Your meta is almost as outdated as mine, and you've shown already in this game that you are able to manipulate it.

[Luca Blight]

You really are a hypocrite. You accuse me of WIFOM while spewing WIFOM in every post you make. You accuse me of ignoring parts of your arguments when you've done the exact same to me. You accuse me of making the thread unreadable when there is no-one alive in this game who is more guilty of this than you, and I have before requested that you stop doing this.

I'm deliberately engaging with you as little as I can. I'm answering only the poinst that I feel need raising, because usually for every post I make you make four of your own in reply.

[Luca Blight]

The Datisi lynch doesn't prove you don't have a plan - you jumped on her wagon like a shot after Icon switched from Gobble, your partner. You then tried to set up Klick as a result of the Datisi green flip - hence your push on Klick today.

You say you claimed in a questionable manner which makes you town, but why the fuck would you claim that way as Town? It's done nothing but cause more WIFOM. Your claim holds no water at all.

[Luca Blight]

Not to mention your reasons for wanting to lynch Datisi were proven to be fake. You wanted her lynched for her content, without even knowing she had attacked Klick, meaning you hadn't even been reading her content. When Icon asked you for specifics you couldn't give any.

Btw, when I'm asking you questions in my posts, they are rhetorical; there to emphasize my point. It doesn't mean I'm engaging you or want an answer from you.

[Luca Blight]

I've already done so.

There is nothing about Gobble's slot that makes me feel like he might be town, and I've felt that way since early D2.

[Luca Blight]

Supremely confident.

It's a strong PR, and in a 9p game 1 strong Town pr v two Mafia goons is easily possible.

[Luca Blight]

We already know scum don't have a RB as well, which lends itself to the idea of two mafia goons.

[Luca Blight]

I've only just returned to the site myself, but looking at the newbie setups which are also 9p, it's very possible to have 1 Town PR.

I wish I had pointed this out to Icon Yesterday and maybe we could have lynched Gobble then, but it hadn't crossed my mind until D3.

[Luca Blight]

You don't have to look very hard, here's one that finished recently:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=80540

Two Mafia goons and one town cop. Similar to this setup, I suspect.

[Luca Blight]

You cleared Gobble/Uzi as a scum team? I was the one who never even considered it due to a) The fact Uzi showed more intent to lynch the Gobble slot than you've ever done and b) the fact I townread the Uzi slot.

I've done nothing to solve this game in LYLO? I had the game solved even before LYLO.

Uzi is clearly not able to be active (hence people thought he had flaked on his own game) so this isn't alignment-indicative.

I brought up the fact that having Town 1 PR is possible, which you were implying wasn't the case. Yes Newbie games have to be based on a particular setup, but they are still 9p games and therefore can be directly compared in terms of setup. For example, as you pointed out there have been no 9p normal games with 3 Town PR's, which mirrors the Newbie setups.

[Luca Blight]

One game where there were two mafia goons and two weaker town PR's

does not

make it a fact at all that there can't be one Town PR in this game.

The mod would likely treat it similarly given they are both 9p games and can both contain similar roles.

And what about the apparent fact that Town cannot have 3 PR's in a 9p game? Especially when one is as strong as a Town loyal Mailman and one is another investigative in an even night Tracker?

Also given Mafia don't have RB, which would make sense when dealing with two investigatives and one protective?

I think, when weighing everything up, it's far more likely to have one PR than three in this game, especially when the two non-confirmed PR claims are both sketchy as fuck with nothing to back them up, and coming from players who are very likely to be a scumteam.

[Luca Blight]

Luca you should be OK with luv voting me seeing that you believe luv and klick are town.

Can you call on luv to vote me also? Effectively clearing gobble/luv.

I would be fine with him voting you, but It's up to him how he votes.

[Luca Blight]

I never said you hated your partner, stop putting words in my mouth.

And stop with the repetitive WIFOM. The fact is you didn't bus your partner. You did vote him, but were off that wagon as quick as a flash when the chance presented itself.

You even said yourself earlier that you hate bussing. You can't seem to keep up with your own meta.

[Luca Blight]

So now you want me to engage with you?

Why should I mention that Newbie setups are mandated when this is common knowledge?

It doesn't matter if Uzi votes you or not right now; the only vote that matters is Klick's.

[Luca Blight]

I think it is wrong to assume that a micro cannot have 3 power roles. Normally, that is the balance. I think it is also wrong to assume the scum team doesnt have a roleblocker because that seems to be the de facto scum power role these days.

My point was that it’s possible for Town to have only one PR. I’m not assuming Town couldn’t possibly have three, but objectively speaking it seems less likely than having one this game considering there is no scum RB and the only confirmed Pr is a very strong one. Add to that the nature of the two non-confirmed claims and I’d say it weighs very heavily on Icon being the only Town PR this game.

[Luca Blight]

The following sequence is scummy as hell from both of the slots in question. The plan here is clearly to sacrifice A50 to Lynch the Mailman and then bus him D3.

VOTE: iconeum

Dude was on every wagon that reached L-1.

Dude claimed cop when he didn't have to. Some say scum wouldn't claim dop d1. Well I say scum also wouldn't be on every L-1 wagon unless he's just that aggressive... He could be.

Alisae's last read was a luca/Icon scum team.

He used his action on the player most likely to be killed if town.

If icon is still alive next day phase he will automatically be my lynch. I'm not gonna risk scum skating by on a fake claim to a victory like that. That's on town if scum win by, fake claiming cop d1.

OK..

VOTE: Icon

If you're right you are doing me a BIG favour bringing me into the spirit of the game.
If you're wrong I get to say "I told you so". It's fun for me either way, and I've got no better option really.

Haha. Looks like I'm the only one here OK with assuming responsibility.

Or playing at all for that matter.

You can easily replace out if you feel the game is over already or don't intend to play in lylo.

I belive that is L-1 too. Any quick hammer is a scum claim

Somebody quick hammer. I'll hard tr you in lylo.

I'll tell you rn if icon flips town and you're still on the board A50 your primary suspect number one

[Luca Blight]

You’re clutching at straws.

One example proves nothing, especially given the Town Pr in this game is a stronger one.

The newbie games, whether you like it or not, prove that you can have a balanced normal game with one Town PR. Icon’s Pr is similar to that of a cop, if not an even stronger version; and the example I provided had one cop and two goons.

[Luca Blight]

The plan changed when I agreed to Klick’s mass-claim idea, which meant you reluctantly had to follow suit. Lynching Icon was subsequently out of bounds.

And A50’s replace out obviously changed things as you went from having a partner who couldn’t be arsed to play and was allowing himself to be lynched, to a partner who was willing to play the game and gambit upon entering.

[Luca Blight]

And then you said this...

I don't believe we should mass claim given a protective may still be out there.

[Luca Blight]

It completely contradicts your point.

[Luca Blight]

And you ultimately agreed because I agreed - you had no choice after that, which was my point.

[Luca Blight]

I’m dropping conversation pieces because we are repeatedly clogging up the thread. If I responded to everything you say then there would be no end to it.

It was worth quoting because it literally contradicted what you’d just said.

I don’t feel the need to answer why Gobble is a better partner, a) because the answer is obvious and b) because I already outlined why above.

[Luca Blight]

Just more fucking WIFOM. Whatever I reply you’ll just spew further WIFOM. It’s pointless.

[Luca Blight]

This is an old 8p normal that had two goons and one weak cop as the only power.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=10162

[Luca Blight]

There isn't a large sample of 9p Normal games, but I'm looking. 8p is pretty damn close though and weak cop makes it less balanced in Town's favour than this game with one Loyal Mailman.

And you couldn't find one with 3 PR's so pipe down.

[Luca Blight]

The game I provided above was also a mini normal. It was 8p as opposed to 9p, but it had a weaker PR meaning it was more scum-sided than this game with one PR.

It's pretty obvious from the Newbie games alone that it's possible to have 1 Town PR. Just because there hasn't been an example of it yet in the handful of 9p Minis that have gone before doesn't mean it can't be done. The Newbie games are proof you can have a balanced game with 1 Town PR and 2 Goons, and the fact you're saying it's impossible just shows your own desperation.

By your own logic it must be impossible to have 3 Town PR's, because there isn't a previous example of a 9p mini Normal with 3 Town PR's.

[Luca Blight]

....You can also reduce Town PR strength to balance it.

In the example you gave there were two Goons and two weaker Town PR's. In this game we have a very strong PR, even stronger than a regular cop, so that balances it out.

[Luca Blight]

You're the one claiming 1 Town PR isn't possible which is utter BS. I actually think 3 PR's could be feasible, but in this game the evidence is stacked against it.

[Luca Blight]

You jumped on the Datisi wagon after Icon switched from Gobble.

You set up Klick off the back of a Datisi green flip, and Klick expressed that you're full of shit at the end of D2. You also generally wanted me and Klick to doubt each other, which is what you were pushing the whole of D2.

You weren't the last to claim so if you had during Mass-claim so you could have been countered. And there is no town motivation behind claiming Tracker when you did. It would have been more believable, indeed, so why wouldn't you do it as Town? Because you're scum and claiming it early would have been a risk. You wanted to make sure there were no other PR claims before claiming yourself.

That's the last time I'm answering your WIFOM.

[Luca Blight]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 4#p5669914

"The setup consisted of: 6 Vanilla Townies, 2 Mafia Goons, and 1 Town Cop."

Game, set and match.

[Luca Blight]

And the type of player Tchill is, he'd definitely crumb his role D1 and would have no reason not to reveal it during the mass-claim.

[Luca Blight]

I think the evidence against Tchill/Gobble is already damning to be honest, but I’ll agree to keep quiet if Tchill does as well.

[Luca Blight]

LUV, what is your theory on why Tchill/A50 decide to kill Alisae N1 over Claimed-Cop-Icon? Talk me through it - you know that's the scumteam, but I don't, so I need something that makes sense.

Gobble, do you still have the activity stats you made earlier in the game? Could you post them for Luca, A50 and Tchill?

I know you asked Uzi and he can give his opinion on it, but I just want to give my 2 penneth on this as it seems to be a sticking point.

It’s clear that Tchill didn’t know about Icon’s claim. It’s theoretically possible he could have faked his reaction, but I don’t believe that. I believe if Scum!Tchill knows about the cop claim then he kills Icon, unless he really believed Ali was a protective, but my feeling is that he missed both of these events. The fact A50 was his partner explains why this wasn’t discussed - even if A50 did see the claim, he was clearly half-arsed from the end of D1. It wouldn’t surprise me if he gave no meaningful input into the N1 discussion, judging by his play end of day 1 and start of D2. This explains Tchill’s in-game frustration with A50 and his willingness to bus him until his replace-out.

[Luca Blight]

Given you didn’t know about the claim, who else were you going to kill?

[Luca Blight]

So I waited to see if I could claim tracker... My partner is replaced and the replacement immediately foils my claim plan... Then I go along with my claim plan despite it implicating both of us specifically due to too many claims?

OK buddy.

You weren’t aware at the time that it was ‘too many claims’. This is the first time you’ve played a 9p Mini and you’ve displayed your ignorance of the setup.

You thought it was safe to claim a third PR but you slipped up. I also don’t think you ever fully grasped the strength of Icon’s PR - it’s a big deal in a small game like this.

[Luca Blight]

That isn't a big deal at all when they were both weaker PR's...

You obviously have a high opinion of yourself as scum, but it doesn't make you immune to mistakes. Why would you play even night tracker this way as Town? That makes even less sense. Missing information (such as role-claims) is something that generally comes from scum more than Town, as scum generally skim more than Town. And that isn't my entire case against you, hence I thought you were scum even before your Tracker claim.

This is boring now, so let's just agree to be quiet and allow Klick to sort Uzi and Gobble.

[Luca Blight]

On that basis Billy wouldn't have replaced out if he were scum, or are you ignoring that one?

Uzi has contributed more than Gobble since his replace in.

I wonder if I've ever fake claimed a PR as scum? I don't think I have.

That explains how unconvincing it was, then. At least it's good practice for future scum games.

[Luca Blight]

I was literally responding to your reply. I'm happy to keep quiet if you do, like I said.

And I agree that a Newbie might be inclined to replace out as scum

IF

he were feeling pressured, which Billy wasn't.

Also Billy wouldn't have bussed me D1 given he is a newbie, as you quite rightly pointed out, and given there is no daychat.

As for Gobble, he's barely done anything since his opening gambit and subsequent 'theory of activity' post. At least Uzi's been consistent with his activity, unlike Gobble.

[Luca Blight]

You thought I’d compromise on a Klick Lynch:

i'll agree to a klick lynch. dude is so scum. i just have to properly quote what im seeing. give me a bit.

And if you push Klick/Uzi then you’re basically baiting Klick to vote Uzi to prove he isn’t partnered with him.

If you came out pushing Luca/Uzi it would have been even more transparent.

[Luca Blight]

V/LA until Monday

[Luca Blight]

Tchill, why would you fake claim during LYLO? That’s one of the most stupid things I’ve ever seen and made it impossible for me to trust you.

All in all it was a fun game. I read just about everyone correctly in the end apart from Uzi and Tchill. I should have pointed out about the setup on D2 and maybe that could have gotten Gobble lynched and stopped Tchill from fake-claiming.

I guess Gobble and Uzi distanced well so well done to them.

[Luca Blight]

You claimed Tracker and maintained the claim while you were hard TR’ing me.

I’m gobsmacked you’re Town, especially after everything you’d said to Icon.

[Luca Blight]

tbf it’s not a big flex to have only misread 2 people in a LyLo with a confirmed town who’s not you

or a flex at all really

I was talking about the game as a whole. And I was the one who confirmed Klick, because I townread him.

[Luca Blight]

You were actually town and refused to work with me at every point...

Is it a big flex to say I fake guiltied scum? Asking before I rip my t-shirt sleeves.

I tried working with you on occasions, but the fact you had no suspicion of Gobble pinged me massively, and your claim made it ultimately impossible.

[Luca Blight]

I scumread Gobble because his claim was fake as anything. Nothing that slot did made me feel it was Town.

I might have considered Uzi/Gobble if you hadn’t obviously lied about your role.

[Luca Blight]

tchill's play was definitely towny imo so I'm not sure what the surprise there was.

I had a belief that Town!Tchill wouldn’t hard-TR Gobble based on his claim, and that Town!Tchill wouldn’t fake his own claim in LYLO, especially after how he roasted Icon for doing the same.

Tchill has become the very thing he said he hated about this site.

[Luca Blight]

That’s pathetic.

I’m not flexing anything; I just made a passing remark on my reads this game which I do after every game I play.

You said earlier you’d blacklist me and maybe that would be for the best, because this mindset isn’t healthy.

[Luca Blight]

tchill's play was definitely towny imo so I'm not sure what the surprise there was.

I had a belief that Town!Tchill wouldn’t hard-TR Gobble based on his claim

okay but like
everyone else did during D2

I thought more of Tchill’s town play, but I was wrong to do so. And others like Icon and Klick began to reconsider, but Tchill irrationally kept defending Gobble.

And yes, I know I fucked up tr’ing Uzi as well.

[Luca Blight]

At work atm but have some free time so I’ll write a few notes on players this game.

Icon: I feel like he played really well. I could clearly Townread him throughout the game and his play was very pro-town. I disagree with fake-claiming in general but it turned out Ok in the end. His one big mistake was to not Lynch Gobble with me on D2 due to his claim, but then I should have pointed out to him about the setup, so I failed in that regard too.

Datisi: she started off very tentatively but improved a lot and I think she has the makings of a really good player. I liked some of her content and she has a good eye for observations, she just needs to be a bit more assertive as Town. I felt you were Town when I hammered you, but I thought it was for the best. Sorry about that.

Alisae: I really disliked Ali’s entrance to the game. I can understand tunneling but it really did feel irrational. I feel in general Ali is a good player though and is very forceful with their arguments, ‘e just needs to take a step back and reconsider from time to time. I’m glad I wasn’t scum this game as I’m not sure how I would have handled that tunnel.

Tchill: I said earlier in the game I felt like he’s a really good player and I meant it. I feel like there so much that’s good about his play, and it’s sad that he threw it all away like that at the end. I was always paranoid about you which is why i was reluctant to work with you. You talk a lot of game manipulation, and your constant stream of WIFOM always made me wary of you. I did enjoy playing with you for the most part and you made me literally laugh out loud on a few occasions.

Klick: i think he’s a very calm, solid kind of player. In some ways very different from me which makes him frustrating to play with from my point of view, but in his own way he was easy to read as Town from the start of D2 onwards and was very objective and considered in his opinions. Maybe I let him down by not considering the Uzi/Gobble team, but i wasn’t capable of seeing Tchill as Town after that claim. Klick was closer to reading Tchill as Town despite his claim so fair play for that.

Gobble: your entrance was really good and won you the game. It was one of the only ways you could salvage that slot. You didn’t do much after that, but you didn’t need to I guess. I suggest dropping the activity theory, but each to his own I guess.

Uzi: your posting this game is usually the type that pings me, but I was already so sure Billy was Town based on his early play, the fact no-one else was defending this slot apart from me, and from the slip. There was another reason i was read this slot as Town but can’t go into it now. It was foolish of me and lessons learnt anyway. I think Uzi’s last post where he voted Tchill was good. I read it and could have unvoted if I suspected anything was amiss, but I didn’t, so fair play.

[Luca Blight]

There was certainly some newbie-level play in this game all-round.

You don’t have to read my comments if you don’t want to, stop being a douche.

Regarding Gobble, I didn’t believe his claim, but at least three townies locked him as Town as a result of it, therefore it was a good entrance.

[Luca Blight]

You too, Alisae.

[Luca Blight]

I can now reveal another reason I was TR'ing Uzi's slot for anyone who cares (I know you don't, Alisae).

As for the Garmr/Luca interaction, I feel weird. I think Luca's initial reason for voting Garmr was weak, but I feel like the way the interaction played out made Luca look good and Garmr look bad. I also played a game (unsure of Luca's alignment in that game so not AI) where he did a 1v1 then backed off similarly on D1. Maybe he rolled scum in both games, but it also could be a playstyle thing.

In another game I was playing with Billy at the same time which is now finished, he appeared to 'slip' that he didn't know my alignment in this game, which lead me to believe he was Town here.