In post 550, T S O wrote:And Kaze's fake paranoia is hilariously bad.
Interesting that you think that. I can actually see why it might look that way from glancing at Kaze's ISO.
In post 504, fferyllt wrote:I recently did a meta dive on Kaze. His game has been evolving pretty quickly. His first game at MS was a scum game. All his games since then have been town. His tone has gotten lighter and less formal with every game. The stuff that has stayed the same about his town games is reasoned stances and observations. I should go back and look at some of those games, though. IIRC he's been mislynched 2-3 times. I didn't pay attention to why he was mislynched. Was more interested in looking for differences in tone and expressiveness by alignment.
Thoughts on Kaze this game? What is your read? I asked you what you think earlier, and you came up with this response...which doesn't help that much within the context of this game. I feel like I might have been easily fooled for a while yesterday when Kaze was interacting with me. TSO's observation actually reaffirms what was farther in the back of my mind yesterday.
Got a few hours, so umm....yeah I think I'm pleased with my GM vote and will not move it.
It's interesting that not much has changed since I started off yesterday with my reads:
Why do you think GM is scum? Is it for the same reasons I pointed out last week?
What do you actually think of me defending Cabd and TSO?
GM hasn't done anything I find townie, and her play seems rather passive tbh. Not really pushing anything new, not giving input that seems useful. She's just....there. You know what I mean?
Look, you're gonna have to work with me this game. I *think* you're town, with your knee-jerk reactions and paranoia and pseudo-meltdowns. My lynch just ain't happening, with everyone here except agi knowing my scumgame and towngame quite well, for the most part (Cabd, ffery, notscience in particular). I can play however Bert-like I want here and not have to be scared of being misunderstood. Heck, even TSO has been scum with me twice out of six scumgames.
And as for my GM vote, I decided hey, I'm gonna lead a wagon and just not feel like I came in and just sheeped a townread for the heck of it. Because that means I'm being easily manipulated, and I won't have that this game, at least not until I have a better read on everyone. Even notscience's style can be faked, so I'm going to look into everything that my limited skimming self can look into. But yes, notscience I *think* is town, but it's not quite as strong as my townread on you. And as I said, I'm in THREE games so expect this game to get lots of focus from me and I will town it up like never before.
If you want my thought process about Cabd, it's this: I woke up with it this morning. I was telling myself, "Bert, don't you think it's awfully convenient that Cabd is playing the exact same way he did in Mismatched, almost to a fault, as well as Perpetual MYLO?" As I said, I can't read Cabd worth anything, and Ffery hasn't pronounced a Cabd scumread. So far, it's conjecture along with two people yelling at me to vote Cabd. If Ffery really gets in a groove and says "Bert, Cabd is screaming scum at the top of his lungs," then I will sheep her if I feel she's town.
TOWNREADS:
Pretty Town <Ffery, Sakura, notscience>
seems town: <agi> - that playstyle will probably look the same regardless of alignment, but I have to say, coming into the game last night and seeing him/her post "here's a post full of nothing because I've got nothing" screams pretty town to me
confused about my read: <TSO, Cabd>
Leaning Scum: <GM, Kaze> Some gut, but also GM not doing anything townie-looking ANYWHERE....and that god-awful TSO switch that really made no sense in terms of rhythm and naturalness and in the flow of the game, it did not FEEL right at all. More like jumping onto a wagon for the sake of it. Kaze is a feeling thing, his/her posts coming in just felt a bit empty. I don't feel the Kaze town-PASSION I remember feeling in 219, which I interpreted as scum in that game. I feel more cautiousness, where the passion isn't being mimicked.
That is where I stand.
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:19 am
by fferyllt
In post 551, Bert wrote:houghts on Kaze this game? What is your read? I asked you what you think earlier, and you came up with this response...which doesn't help that much within the context of this game. I feel like I might have been easily fooled for a while yesterday when Kaze was interacting with me. TSO's observation actually reaffirms what was farther in the back of my mind yesterday.
I've done a meta dive to develop a sense of his tone as different alignments, but what I came away with was an impression of someone whose game is changing pretty rapidly. His one scum game was also his first game, and the tone was pretty formal compared to more recent games. So, adjusting for the direction his game changes have taken, the big difference to me between his scum game and his town games is that the first game's posts felt organized with tight, well defined stances. In other games, his stances and reactions to game events have been more disorganized and hence fluid.
This is a scum/town difference I see in quite a few players who don't have really deep experience at mafia, and I think it's where the "informed" part of informed minority shows up in newer players.
Applying these thoughts to this game - His stances so far have been pretty fluid which feels town. There has been some hedginess or maybe waffling, though, which pings a little. I don't worry too much about waffling (changing stance), but hedging (e.g., fencesitting) tends to get my attention.
I want to factor in my impression of his predecessor. Gravija had a really strong newb vibe, and was reacting to stuff that irritated him without paying much attention to whether what irritated him was scummy. In newbie games I try to sort new players quickly and then mostly stop worrying about them if I think they are town. That's kinda where I was at with Gravija. I don't think he would have been as open in his responses to "yeah but is that scummy?" questions if he were scum. But, aside from the irritable reactions, he seemed kinda passive. IIRC he was the most townward of my null reads when I posted a reads list. At the time, I was thinking hard about moving both him and Sakura to my town pile.
The waffly/hedgy stuff bugs me enough that I want to call Kaze leaning town, not strong town.
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 3:31 am
by Bert
In post 552, fferyllt wrote:The waffly/hedgy stuff bugs me enough that I want to call Kaze leaning town, not strong town.
Gotcha. This is really useful to know.
In post 552, fferyllt wrote:the big difference to me between his scum game and his town games is that the first game's posts felt organized with tight, well defined stances. In other games, his stances and reactions to game events have been more disorganized and hence fluid.
Got it.
In post 552, fferyllt wrote:I want to factor in my impression of his predecessor. Gravija had a really strong newb vibe, and was reacting to stuff that irritated him without paying much attention to whether what irritated him was scummy.
Yeah, I felt the same way when I first caught up with the game. I remarked earlier that I read Gravija as town too. Kaze's opening nullified/questioned my townread on Gravija. This all does make me feel better about Kaze, though!!! <3
Because.
I am thoroughly satisfied with a lynch on either one (the other is T S O, obvs) at this point and so will continue to sway between them until it becomes clear which one is today's lynch (probably T S O, probably the better option).
In post 196, goodmorning wrote:Well I think this is Town v Town unless one of {Sakura, T S O} flips Town in which case Cabd (tinysmall chance ffery) is Scum.
He's calling me and Sakura Town at this stage, but then says if we flip Town then Cabd or ffery are scum.
No. I am saying notsci v. Cabd was Town v. Town. I was saying that you and Sakura are the Scum, but if by some anti-miracle one of you flips Town then Cabd could be Scum, meaning notsci v. Cabd was NOT Town v. Town after all.
Try reading comprehension, please.
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:05 am
by T S O
I did misinterpret that.
Your lack of anything resembling an accusation, a case, etc. means I'm concluding you have nothing.
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:07 am
by Sakura Hana
In post 554, goodmorning wrote:No. I am saying notsci v. Cabd was Town v. Town. I was saying that you and Sakura are the Scum, but if by some anti-miracle one of you flips Town then Cabd could be Scum, meaning notsci v. Cabd was NOT Town v. Town after all.
I thought you didnt like pre-flip associative tells?
Why are you lining up lynches?
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:25 am
by Bert
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:30 am
by fferyllt
I don't know if I'm officially on the GM wagon or not. Making it official.
In post 479, Bert wrote:
It's what I call the "intimidation factor." Why is Cabd resorting to this, and is it alignment-indicative or a tell in any way, shape, or form? Surely, this looks like it's supposed to arouse fear in the other and persuade someone to back down from attacking him?
Why not talk it out, or at least be more reachable for everyone
Tell me what you think, please?
Looks awkward, yes. Belligerent. Not sure if alignment-indicative, though.
So why do you think town-Cabd would be motivated to do it?
My next choice would be Cabd, but TSO and ns are on it and I don't know what to make of that. I haven't liked ns lately. Perhaps I'm overthinking it. Perhaps not.
Meh. Vote floats.
I'm just gonna try to show the progression of you pushing a mislynch.
Here, you say my wagon gives you a bad feeling. Paranoia, then. You get off it and you go to your next suspect, Cabd. But his wagon gives you a bad feeling too. Fake paranoia - if my wagon is problematic, then I'm town being mislynched. Therefore, me being on the Cabd wagon has no grounds for worry. It's not conducive to how a Town player thinks.
In post 525, Kazekirimaru wrote:- I'm really not comfortable putting down a vote quite yet. I'd have left it on TSO if he weren't on L-1. Newbie games tend to have derphammers.
- I really don't know.
- TSO. Though I'd be comfortable with either, I'm not familiar with Cabd or his play. All I know of him is that he's a meta player. I've at least played with TSO and feel like his play here is inconsistent with his town play I remember.
And what were your observations of me as either alignment? What's the difference? Why is this relevant?
In this post, you slowly edge back over to the wagon you realised you made a mistake getting off. You try to justify unvoting by claiming paranoia of newbie derphammers, but there are basically no newbies in this game. Again, it's fake. Your mindset makes no sense as Town.
I'm tired of agonizing over this wagon. And I didn't realize how close we are to deadline. >.> TSO is scum. He needs to hang. Wagon analysis be damned. #yolo
And here, you finally get back on the wagon you were edging back to on #525.
I hope it's obvious to everyone how bullshit Kaze voting me is. He got off the wagon at first
by claiming paranoia with the people on it. Then it was that he was afraid of derphammers. And now, he's back on the wagon.
despite the exact same people who he was originally "paranoid" of still on it.
There are far too many inconsistencies in his stances to be coming from a Town mindset.
In post 543, Cabd wrote:Hi. While there's formalities tomorrow morning, I'm somewhat sorta kinda mostly a free man right now.
While I catch up:
Hey bert, why are you continuing to ask the same question of me when it has been asked and answered? You aren't expecting a different answer, are you? You keep pushing it to make me look bad and that's not okay bro.
Hey, can I ask you something?
Why haven't you commented on, anything if you're a "free man?"
You're trying to lurk out the day and keep your hands clean.
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:51 am
by Malakittens
~ in the process of finding you guys a back up or co mod until my life calms down.
Hang tight ~
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 8:47 am
by notscience
In post 559, T S O wrote:And TSO loves to get a scum PM with one of the strongest players in the game and immediately hard-bus the slot.
You have no meta provided to show either of these things. All you have is baseless conjecture.
Wrong, nice attempt to misconstrue.
Cabd was a replacement.
And you jump INITIALLY to "it's not my meta to do that as scum!"
Self-scum meta?
lolno
Consider this an intent to hammer.
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:02 am
by Sakura Hana
You mean an intent to put him at L-1?
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:04 am
by notscience
Fuck no I'm a doublevoter and he's about to die
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:09 am
by fferyllt
heh
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:11 am
by TheButtonmen
I'm the temporary back-up moderator.
If you have any questions, comments, concerns feel free to drop me a PM, otherwise it's still business as usual so keep calm and carry on.
In post 554, goodmorning wrote:No. I am saying notsci v. Cabd was Town v. Town. I was saying that you and Sakura are the Scum, but if by some anti-miracle one of you flips Town then Cabd could be Scum, meaning notsci v. Cabd was NOT Town v. Town after all.
I thought you didnt like pre-flip associative tells?
Why are you lining up lynches?
In post 530, goodmorning wrote:I do discourage pre-flip/D1 associative stuff. None of my tells on them are associative. They are just 2 strong scumreads in a game where I have quite a few strong townreads.
In post 559, T S O wrote:And TSO loves to get a scum PM with one of the strongest players in the game and immediately hard-bus the slot.
You have no meta provided to show either of these things. All you have is baseless conjecture.
Wrong, nice attempt to misconstrue.
Cabd was a replacement.
And you jump INITIALLY to "it's not my meta to do that as scum!"
Self-scum meta?
lolno
Consider this an intent to hammer.
Was I attacking Cabd's slot or Cabd? Cabd. So him replacing in has, in fact, more relevance to my case than to yours.
You're making a connection based on playstyle. I asked for meta of either playstyle.
You have neither.[/B] So you spew "SELF-META UR SCUM!" instead.
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:20 am
by T S O
fucking italics.
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:23 am
by Sakura Hana
Yeah saying X is town if Y flips scum and hence Z would also be scum is totally not an association.
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:23 am
by notscience
THE NEXT PERSON TO VOTE TSO GETS OFFICIAL CONFTOWN STATUS AND I DAMN WELL EXPECT THE HAMMER
Pedit-
Lmfao. You said- " TSO loves to get a scum PM with one of the strongest players in the game and immediately hard-bus the slot."
He wasn't in your role pm.
Nice try.
Especially how you're trying to force yourself into being the shepherd of his wagon when you aren't actually doing shit. It looks like you're trying to get conftown status and you've locked yourself in with no escape.
And guess what- You're the one who brought up meta as a defense.
Guess why?
Because I caught you in something you were changing in a scumgame and you want to say "nah it's not in my meta"
Posted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 9:24 am
by Cabd
... Woah woah woah. I was a replacement into a slot that had zero posts.
Why are we talking about voting my slot? I'm the only PLAYER in it.
In post 83, agi102 wrote:Ok, so Sakura and Gravija don't understand this gambit. That's ok.
Also, link me to a game where someone has been replaced for idiocy.
Treat me like i'm five years old. Explain exactly what you hope to accomplish with this gambit of yours. How will town react? How will scum react? How do you account for false positives, and what percent chance do you feel it has of working?
Lots of players here know me as somebody who has done quite a few gambits, including claiming scum as scum, so from one gambit guy to another, tell me what you want out of this.,
In post 92, Cabd wrote:Light townread on cliche, agi looks like day one lynchfodder of choice.
In post 101, Cabd wrote:Sakura, you have until page 15 to be obvtown.
Ffery has until the end of this page to form a townbloc.
And notsci, you seem vaguely more interested in this game than some of your recent finished ones. You scum bro?
In post 92, Cabd wrote:Light townread on cliche, agi looks like day one lynchfodder of choice.
ffery/GM, thoughts on these two? Notsci, do you agree with cliche-read?
In post 137, Cabd wrote:Come and play for real, TSO. Throwing out a vote on me for no stated reason is a bit low quality given your usual play as town.
These quotes basically give me a gut feeling of scum.
It's like you're constantly using psychology to put yourself in the Town driving seat and I just get a bad feeling from it.
PEdit: yeah ffery, I do.
Yeah guys, these posts totally mean he's the shepherd, amirite.
In post 83, agi102 wrote:Ok, so Sakura and Gravija don't understand this gambit. That's ok.
Also, link me to a game where someone has been replaced for idiocy.
Treat me like i'm five years old. Explain exactly what you hope to accomplish with this gambit of yours. How will town react? How will scum react? How do you account for false positives, and what percent chance do you feel it has of working?
Lots of players here know me as somebody who has done quite a few gambits, including claiming scum as scum, so from one gambit guy to another, tell me what you want out of this.,
In post 92, Cabd wrote:Light townread on cliche, agi looks like day one lynchfodder of choice.
In post 101, Cabd wrote:Sakura, you have until page 15 to be obvtown.
Ffery has until the end of this page to form a townbloc.
And notsci, you seem vaguely more interested in this game than some of your recent finished ones. You scum bro?
In post 92, Cabd wrote:Light townread on cliche, agi looks like day one lynchfodder of choice.
ffery/GM, thoughts on these two? Notsci, do you agree with cliche-read?
In post 137, Cabd wrote:Come and play for real, TSO. Throwing out a vote on me for no stated reason is a bit low quality given your usual play as town.
These quotes basically give me a gut feeling of scum.
It's like you're constantly using psychology to put yourself in the Town driving seat and I just get a bad feeling from it.
PEdit: yeah ffery, I do.
Yeah guys, these posts totally mean he's the shepherd, amirite.