Mini 1320--Redwall Mafia: Spirit Lore (The Sun Has Set)

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Hi!

UNVOTE:

Content will come as soon as I can. Just so everyone knows, I will be

V/LA from tomorrow until Monday

. Sorry to hop straight in on a V/LA like that. :/

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I apologize in advance, but it looks like I probably won't be able to produce any content before my V/LA. Once that's done, though, I promise to be Captain Activity. Sorry!

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I'm back from my crazyface weekend. There will be content tonight.

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First thing is that Newman is null, as of now. I'm having to read before I leave for work, so I didn't get to go super in-depth, which I'm really sorry about. I totally spaced on doing this last night.
Second thing is that the Newman wagon was pure awfulness. Because bv jumped on such a bad wagon, and I know that he is better than that:

VOTE: Korlash

Somebody smack me if I don't give more content than this within 15 hours.

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Hiplop – Mostly useless; almost entirely unreadable. Solid D1 lynch material if no one particularly scummy comes along. Vigbait otherwise.

Junpei – A bit abrasive, but is also very active. He’s a townread.

Korlash – Ridiculous amounts of postings. He’s just as useless and unreadable as hiplop, for exactly the opposite reason. It’s a whole bunch of data, and almost zero information. Not to mention, I don’t understand how he can post a million things, and still not know basic information (yes, in fact, Newman

was

asked to present his meta) that relates directly to his cases / opinions. As I mentioned before, I don’t believe than town-BV would have placed a vote on Newman when he did, due to how weak the reasoning behind that wagon is. Scumread, and anti-town at the very best. Excellent lynch candidate.

Pappum – Though his read on Newman is wrong, he reads as townish to me. Active, intelligent, and posting useful, concise content.

Peregrine – I’m reading him as null. He makes good points occasionally, but he seems not terribly useful.

Riceballtail – Not the most active player, but her points are good thus far. I’d like to see a bit more content, but she’s a townread for now.

Vijay – This guy is also a good lynch choice; he doesn’t seem terribly helpful, and his first three votes jump out at me like a cat jumps at a laser pointer. Random vote on BV, serious vote on RBT,

back to random vote on BV

. WTF. Scummy.

Zdenek – He started off scummy, but got townier as I read. Good contribution / responses by the end. Townish.

iStark – Eh. Newman has a different opinion on things. Not scummy. Just different (and, IMO, wrong but understandable). I read him as null, as the entirety of his posts were him defending himself from attacks on his L2 opinons.

All of that said, I’m going to leave my vote where it is. Just so you all know, I’m not the most verbose of players. However, when I feel strongly about something, I will be a motherfucking WARRIOR about it. And right now, I feel pretty strongly that Korlash, hiplop, or Vijay need to be the lynch today.

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Korlash is too misled and committed to be scum I think. Why do you think that the RBT vote by V2V was serious again? Hiplop is a good policy lynch and vigbait yes, but I would rather not policy lynch.

Explain why you don't like my Peregrine case?

1 - Remind me how, exactly, misled is a towntell? Committed I can buy, I suppose, but not misled.
2 - Ok. His vote was placed in response to a serious vote, agreeing with the reasoning of said serious vote.
3 - Lemme look... your Peregrine case is solid. I'm not convinced, but he's on the watchlist.

So your reasons for voting me are my predecessor was part of a wagon your predecessor was part of, and I miss tiny details that I specifically ask people to tell me.

Eh... nice try at the misrep but no.

Corlash, your predecessor is BV310. BV is a good player, who knows better than to jump on a weak wagon like Newman's as a town player. The only motivation bv has for that in this game is to try to build it into a mislynch. My predecessor, on the other hand, was Ghostlin, who was

not on the wagon

. Good try, though!

Oh, and as to your second point? When you argue against people, making "Why would this person do Action X, when no one asked him for Action X," the crux of your argument, him

actually having been asked

to do Action X is not a "tiny detail." And with the amount of detail and time you clearly take making each post, I simply don't believe you just missed it. You looked at the age/likely quality of the players in the game and said "I can get away with this."

Please, don't pretend that your word vomit is actually legitimate content. Yeah, there might be a few bits in there, but simply spewing out every word you can think of? Not good for town. Period. Not scummy by its nature, but definitely anti-town, and combined with my previous point on leaving out important bits of information, I think that you're using it in a scummy way.



iStark:

There was a big wagon on Newman (your predecessor). He had complained about someone being L-2 on Page 3, so people jumped on him. The discussion has mostly stemmed from that, and people's responses to the Newman wagon.

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Oh, shoot. *Korlash. Sorry!

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I said solid, not the number one option. My vote stays on Korlash until deadline gets closer.

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I am not entirely sure of the point you are attempting to make, but I can assure you that I will do all within my power to ensure that there is a lynch today.

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Shoot. Correction to my previous post: Ghostlin was actually on BV's wagon. I ISOed the mod's votecounts, rather than Ghostlin. My apologies there. Nonetheless, my point about BV yet stands; Ghostlin was not nearly as strong or experienced a player as BV, and I don't believe that he would've been able to determine that the wagon was bad, whereas BV should have.

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So why is Newman wrong in his thinking that L-2 is bad, but BV is scum for being part of that L-2? That doesn't make sense.

You're oversimplifying. L-2 is not bad that early. L-2 on a wagon that is built for reasons that are

that awful

, from a player that is better than being on said awful wagon? Not town.

And... your playstyle is to deceive and not be fully truthful on a regular basis? Haaaa ok you need death. A lot.

Tl;DR: The joindate thing wasn't a 'crux' of my argument, just a single part of it. And yes, I knew what I asked for existed. So tell me, why did YOU have to tell me? Why didn't Rat say it? Or V2V? You had to step up and fight their battles for them... Why would you have to do that if they are town? (ignore V2V since I didn't actually post his case, so just blame Rat on this one.

They should have answered you, absolutely. I don't know why they didn't, so I did because I knew the answer and no one had yet answered you. More importantly, though, you shouldn't have asked if you knew already. And yes, they should have answered, but nonetheless, it's not "their" battle. It's

our

battle. Well, not yours, but you know what I mean.

BV is a stronger player, from what I've seen. To answer your question, no I don't think I've ever actually played with either of them, but I have seen them both in games. BV is better.

Pappum, that's nice and all, but uh... good job on not commenting on anything that's happened lately.

P-Edit: Just because I disagree with someone, doesn't mean they aren't making good points.

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RBT's good points:

Post 100: "3) Newman's thing on L-2 is null to me. Could be cautious town or town-cred-grab/buddy protection scum move. Don't think there's enough info to really judge it yet though."
Post 123: "In general, I agree with his analysis of the fact that anyone who doesn't play "the ms way" tends to get extra scrutiny from those that do. It's like being racist, but for play style. Based on the fact I've undergone that often during my (almost four year now) stay on the site, I would imagine that I can easily attest to the presence and prejudice of many players here for not being able to be read like a book because of a different communication/play style. This makes me feel that the wagon is craptastic and powered by Scumfuel."
Post 147: "Not scumhunting isn't a legit reason to lynch? Something scum have no interest in doing is cool? Saying you've read things, when you're writing things that imply that you haven't?"

There are more, that's a brief sampling. She is tunneling on Zdenek more than I realized, actually. I think she's making a bigger deal out of things than they really should be, but the points she's making are good and logical.

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Hrk. This game is ridiculous; I can't make heads or tails of Korlash, and Junpei is basically the only person contributing regularly.

VOTE: PeregrineV

This is the best wagon of those with more than 1 vote on them. We need to lynch.

If a whole bunch of people want to jump onto Korlash, though, I'll be back in a heartbeat. Just sayin'.

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Oh dammit I totally missed that. Thanks, Peregrine.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Korlash

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.....

Yeahhhh Korlash needs death. That gambit gets you basically no information on D1. Just sayin'. Good job trying to look town, though!

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Ummm...

That slot is scummy?

YAYYYY EXPLANATIONS

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Ummmm... RBT. Use your brain. There are about 14 milllion 'important characters' in the Redwall series. In a 10 player game, I promise the scum have good fakeclaims. Nameclaims mean nothing, as far as determining alignment goes.

I am voting Korlash now because of a) BV's vote on the bad Newman wagon and b) Korlash's play in general (giant posts that are all data and no info, intentionally leaving information / asking for things he knows have already happened / lying). I don't know why Ghostlin voted BV, and I can't really ask him to find out.

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Guys.

Deadline was 3 minutes ago.

We need more fucking votes on Korlash.

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We only have 4, unless I got a lot worse at counting recently.

We need 6 to lynch. If we don't have 6, it's a no-lynch.

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What? That's a pretty arbitrarily constricting rule don't you think? Sigh, I wish that mods who have weird nuances like this would do a better job of expressing it. Not blaming DarthYoshi or anything just saying...

Well..

RBT
V2V
Peregrine

Of this three, we need two votes? Well, Zdenek just got a lot more suspicious along with one person on this list.

Ummmm...

That is a standard rule that about 98% of mods on this site use.

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HI

VOTE: Korlash

I am a modified rolecop; my role gives me the ability to see the abilities any player's role PM states. One of Korlash's abilities allows him to decide during confirmation stage to be either NK-immune or return Redwall-aligned to investigations.

WOOOOOOO

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When he dies, the mod will inform everyone that he's a Spirit. That's it.

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I'd say yes because I'm currently the only outed town PR (unless I'm forgetting something but I don't think I am), but I don't want to straight-up direct any protective role we may have. They need to play the WIFOM game with the other scum.

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Yes, those are the implications. In fact, I'd submit that the Vijay kill is likely to be a vigkill, NOT a scumkill. I don't remember there being many people who considered him town, and I think everyone thought he was useless.

I'd also bet that every role in this game is a PR of some type, meaning that 2 investigative roles (especially when mine wouldn't turn up anything about alignment except in this very specific case) isn't really that much of a stretch.

I'm comfortable with fullclaiming if a majority of the town would like me to, but I would definitely like to hear one from Korlash, even if it's only to see how clever his fakeclaim is.

Additionally, I think we massclaim after the Korlash lynch. No need to give the scum an extra night of full disclosure.

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So the scum(me) have an ability(choice) to become investigation immune, but the town cop(you) investigates in such a way as to make that immunity worthless? Bullshit. Given the size of the game, I can understand the mod throwing in red herrings to keep the scum guessing, but to actually fuck them over in that way is beyond awful.

And 'redwall-aligned'? Is that what it actually says because mine talks about inhabitants and non-inhabitants.

You sound upset about your role. Sorry that my role just so happens to be the one that beats yours. Rock, Paper, Scissors.
Also, yes, Redwall-aligned were the actual words used.

I think we should mass role claim so

I can have a say on it before I'm lynched. I honestly am fairly good at figuring out a games flavor. I expect the scum got safe claims, but I'd still like the chance to have a shot at it if I may.

my partner has a better chance to kill a PR tonight.

Really? Trying to cover up the kill... Sad really... Who besides me actually thought he was scum? Who?

Ummmm... your point? Everyone agreed he was useless as hell; he'd be an awful kill from the scum perspective. Even more so since, as you say, you didn't think he was town.

QQ more, Korlash.

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OH HEY ALSO

vijay2vasandani, Sunflash the Mace, Redwall-aligned Creature, was murdered on Night One.

See the use of "Redwall-aligned?" THANKS FOR PLAYING TRY AGAIN NEXT TIME

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Like I said, I'll fullclaim if enough of the town asks for it. I've no problem with it.

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I claimed immediately because I dislike playing games as town. I have what is, by all weights and measures, a guilty on Korlash; I'm going to put it out there as soon as I can. No WIFOM, no mindgames, just straight-up truth. Additionally, I didn't attempt to try to build a wagon on him for 2 reasons: a)There wasn't actually that much suspicion on him from the town; it mostly "shit it's deadline." b) I've seen Korlash play as scum before (he was singersigner's IC in one of her SE games). He talks in circles around everything, and can thus talk himself out of anything. He doesn't lose debates, mostly because he never shuts up.

I believe that there's no reason there can't be a rolecop and a regular cop in the same game, especially one that I believe is likely to be vanilla-less.

I chose Korlash because he was my biggest scumread, for reasons mentioned previously. Certain abilities are more likely to be town- or scum-aligned, so I figured I might try to see if I got something out of it, as well as giving me an idea of whether or not his ability was worth dealing with his obnoxious-as-hell dayplay if he was, in fact, town.

However, I will say this: if anyone redirected me, you need to say so. IMMEDIATELY.

Also, since it seems to be necessary: I am Martin the Warrior. My ability is called "discerning the soul;" basically, due to Martin's ability to weigh a creature's innate sense of right and wrong, it allows him to determine what their unique abilities are. I am a Spirit.

Also:

Hiplop –

M

ostly useless; almost entirely unreadable. Solid D1 lynch material if no one particularly scummy comes along. Vigbait otherwise.

Junpei –

A

bit abrasive, but is also very active. He’s a townread.

Korlash –

R

idiculous amounts of postings. He’s just as useless and unreadable as hiplop, for exactly the opposite reason. It’s a whole bunch of data, and almost zero information. Not to mention, I don’t understand how he can post a million things, and still not know basic information (yes, in fact, Newman was asked to present his meta) that relates directly to his cases / opinions. As I mentioned before, I don’t believe than town-BV would have placed a vote on Newman when he did, due to how weak the reasoning behind that wagon is. Scumread, and anti-town at the very best. Excellent lynch candidate.

Pappum –

T

hough his read on Newman is wrong, he reads as townish to me. Active, intelligent, and posting useful, concise content.

Peregrine –

I

’m reading him as null. He makes good points occasionally, but he seems not terribly useful.

Riceballtail –

N

ot the most active player, but her points are good thus far. I’d like to see a bit more content, but she’s a townread for now.

Vijay –

T

his guy is also a good lynch choice; he doesn’t seem terribly helpful, and his first three votes jump out at me like a cat jumps at a laser pointer. Random vote on BV, serious vote on RBT, back to random vote on BV. WTF. Scummy.

Zdenek –

H

e started off scummy, but got townier as I read. Good contribution / responses by the end. Townish.

iStark –

E

h. Newman has a different opinion on things. Not scummy. Just different (and, IMO, wrong but understandable). I read him as null, as the entirety of his posts were him defending himself from attacks on his L2 opinons.

All of that said, I’m going to leave my vote where it is. Just so you all know, I’m not the most verbose of players. However, when I feel strongly about something, I will be a motherfucking

WARRIOR

about it. And right now, I feel pretty strongly that Korlash, hiplop, or Vijay need to be the lynch today.

Korlash is too misled and committed to be scum I think. Why do you think that the RBT vote by V2V was serious again? Hiplop is a good policy lynch and vigbait yes, but I would rather not policy lynch.

Explain why you don't like my Peregrine case?

1 -

R

emind me how, exactly, misled is a towntell? Committed I can buy, I suppose, but not misled.
2 -

O

k. His vote was placed in response to a serious vote, agreeing with the reasoning of said serious vote.
3 -

L

emme look... your Peregrine case is solid. I'm not convinced, but he's on the watchlist.

So your reasons for voting me are my predecessor was part of a wagon your predecessor was part of, and I miss tiny details that I specifically ask people to tell me.

E

h... nice try at the misrep but no.

C

orlash, your predecessor is BV310. BV is a good player, who knows better than to jump on a weak wagon like Newman's as a town player. The only motivation bv has for that in this game is to try to build it into a mislynch. My predecessor, on the other hand, was Ghostlin, who was

not on the wagon

. Good try, though!

O

h, and as to your second point? When you argue against people, making "Why would this person do Action X, when no one asked him for Action X," the crux of your argument, him

actually having been asked

to do Action X is not a "tiny detail." And with the amount of detail and time you clearly take making each post, I simply don't believe you just missed it. You looked at the age/likely quality of the players in the game and said "I can get away with this."

P

lease, don't pretend that your word vomit is actually legitimate content. Yeah, there might be a few bits in there, but simply spewing out every word you can think of? Not good for town. Period. Not scummy by its nature, but definitely anti-town, and combined with my previous point on leaving out important bits of information, I think that you're using it in a scummy way.



iStark:

There was a big wagon on Newman (your predecessor). He had complained about someone being L-2 on Page 3, so people jumped on him. The discussion has mostly stemmed from that, and people's responses to the Newman wagon.

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Yeah, I thought the justification for the rolecop was odd too, honestly.

I disagree with you on how to play correctly as town. This much we know.

By "deal" with you, I mean thus: had you had an ability that was almost certainly a town ability (alignment cop, for example) I would've stopped pushing your lynch, because you would've been essentialy conf-town. If it was something that wasn't as clear (roleblocker, etc), I would've kept pushing you for being scummy.

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To be honest, I had forgotten about his ability claim. I was busy planning/participating in Singer's birthday weekend, and so I didn't review Day 1 very thoroughly over the night phase.

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The only thing worth responding to in the past page: The comment saying that I'm scum looking for a 1v1. How the HELL is that good for scum? One of us will get lynched. If that one flips town, the other one is sure as fuck getting lynched the next day. (And if that DOESN'T happen, I will personally reach through the internet and strangle all of you.) A 1-for-1 trade is GOOD FOR TOWN. If the 8:2 ratio speculation is correct, we're currently at 7:2. A scumlynch today puts us at 7:1, and then I (the outed town PR) am the likely nightkill, putting us at 6:1. Even if I get lynched today, we hit 6:2, then 5:2, then 5:1 tomorrow after you lynch Korlash. That's a significant advantage. And if our vig that I really think exists (though I need to go back and look at everyone's thoughts on V2V) has half a brain, they'd just fucking shoot Korlash if I get lynched.

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Oh, also. Scum didn't redirect me; there's no way scum would intentionally direct any role onto themselves, unless they really thought I was a doctor or something like that. (Which I suppose is technically possible, but I don't think it's likely.) If I was redirected, it was almost certainly by town.

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Actually, that's a fair point, Korlash. I forgot to factor in the vig. So, re-mathing:

Currently in 7:2. Assuming we lynch Korlash today:
7:1 end of D2.
WORST CASE:
5:1 end of N2.
4:1 end of D3.
2:1 end of N3, lylo D4.

BEST CASE:
6:0 end of N2 woooooooo

Assuming I'm lynched today:
6:2 end of D2
WORST CASE:
4:2 end of N2
3:2 end of D3 (assuming town derps HARD and neither vigs or lynches Korlash)
Game ends N3 if vig doesn't hit scum, 2:1 if vig does, going to LYLO on D4.

if town doesn't derp:
4:1 end of D3
2:1 end of N3, LYLO D4

BEST CASE:
6:2 end of D2
5:1 end of N2
lynch scums D3 win gamez.

So, honestly, even if Korlash is lynched today, it doesn't provide us with a gigantic advantage. Nonetheless, if I AM the lynch today, Korlash needs to die immediately afterwards. End of story.

And I've looked over your other games briefly; you can talk yourself in circles around anything you want.

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Welp. I jsut went back and looked at it again, since you were clearly getting at something, and you were town that game. My apologies for misremembering.

If I didn't have a guilty on you, I'd probably unvote. But seeing as how I do, it's all fairly academic at this point.

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I messed up when I claimed, by not checking my memories. Fair enough. What's done is done. That still doesn't change the fact that I have a guilty on you; period, end of story.

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I definitely think that claiming the V2V shot would be a good idea if it was, in fact, made by a vig. If the vig took a different shot, it implies they were roleblocked, and thus should not claim. (We don't know if the hypothetical RB is scum or town aligned, if it's town aligned, we're revealing a PR unnecessarily. And if it's a scum-aligned RB, they don't know that their target was a vig unless he claims thus.)

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RBT, I fail to see how a lack of vig claim invalidates my result in any way, shape, or form.

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Ummmmm.... I did last page.

Recap: I'm Martin the Warrior, rolecop, Spirit. Ability name is "discerning the soul." It shows me all unique abilities a player has in their role PM. I targeted Korlash last night; I got that when he dies, it will show that he is a spirit, and that during confirmation, he was able to choose between being nightkill-immune and returning 'redwall-aligned' to any alignment checks.

I'm getting on a plane to Cleveland in about 4 minutes, so I'm going to be more or less mia for about 6 hours. (I do have one layover, but I don't think I"ll have much time.)

I'm rather hoping I come back to a scumflip.

P-EDIT: Thank you, Zdenek, for making sense. Jeebus. If I'm lying then shoot me tonight / lynch me tomorrow. My action is confirmable, AND since Korlash's role implies that there is an alignment investigator, they can target me tonight too if they feel it's necessary. Don't be stupid.

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Oh god dammit....

fuckety fuck fuck.

I am, in fact, one-shot. I missed that every time I read my damned role PM until right now when you asked about it specifically. I didn't read carefully enough, and that's entirely my fault. fuckfuckfuck.

Welp. So much for my action being confirmable. :/

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(Phone posting from taxi-ing plane.) Lynch me if you must, but Korlash needs to die. If not today, then tonight/tomorrow. He's scum, I guarantee it 100%. If you lynch me, DO NOT FORGET MY GUILTY. Don't do it.

We already fucked things up once by not lynching yesterDay; don't fuck it up again.

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I'm frustrated with myself for fucking up my claim and misreading my role PM. I'd understand a lynch on me today if it's necessary, but Korlash needs to be the next death.

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Hallelujah!

Making up for yesterday's no-lynch. Well done, Town.

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"Cowards die a thousand times, a warrior only dies once." - Luke the Warrior, father of Martin.

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Korlash can argue anything, like I said. It's because he responds to literally everything, even miniscule points that have literally nothing to do with your argument. Basically, he argues like a politician: to win, not to find the truth. (Which is actually pretty good when you're scum.)

I still have my complaints about the setup, as expressed in the dead QT. I do think you did an excellent job of moderating, DY, and I appreciate the effort you put into making the setup, which would definitely have been difficult to balance.

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or the seekers need to have some sort of guidance to find their target (or multiple targets). The odds of finding your actual target is literally 'random' since you can't even use flavor to figure it out. So it makes perfect sense no ability was actually activated.

So what i think we've learned is that you have to keep flavor intact for this type of mechanic. Put in a rule to help avoid massclaim if you feel the need, but really for it to work the flavor needs to be there.

A fair point. I thought a rule to avoid massclaim would have been even more inelegant, but if there is a way around it that would have kept the flavor fully intact, I am all ears.

I will also say that in balancing, I considered that 4 of the townies having limited neighborizing abilities to be a PR in and of itself--not necessarily a a strong one, but that was part of their power. Earlier incarnations of the setup were actually too town-sided, so it is entirely possible I overcompensated.

iStark...yeah, you're going on my modding blacklist.

I think part of the issue was that it wasn't explained very well up-front. Maybe I misread / skimmed (which is entirely possible), but my impression was that I could ONLY be neighborized by my actual creature partner, that it would match flavorwise, and that the neighborhoods would be permanent once created.

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No worries, Yoshi. It was a fun game.