NY 164: Maniacal Street Mafia (Anticlimatically finished.)

[Syryana]

/confirm

[Syryana]

Alrighty, catch up time. Let's do this.

Spoiler: My notes, read at your own risk

Fuck reading pregame
Massclaim? In a normal? Wut. #203
Claim on page 1. new record. Informed townie? wtf? Informed scum maybe. #204
Good call, Nacho. #206
Informed scum at least knows why we shouldn't be massclaiming day 1. #207
Nacho wins cake #213
Holy shit #214, contradicts himself in same post.
lolAAscumlol #217
dat scumhunting AA #227
Scum claim VT or vig or *insert bullshit role here*, then start killing power roles, ya no massclaim #230
Self-deprecating Desperado, IGMEOU #236
Def lynching AA too #239 and #246 AND #252, I'm not reading her posts anymore
I like Bulba for town #253
OS is not #263
Maybe I'll go back and read pre-game later to verify these readslists #279
Eyeballin Desp hard #282
"Everyone who massclaims is scum" lololololol #283
I need more eyeballs to watch Desp with #289
Eyeballs on Slandaar too #291
B&B pointing out flaws in HD's argument, +1 #295
THANK YOU, SLANDAAR. Now explain your scumreads and I won't have to eyeball you anymore #296
Why is Oversoul town? Why is Nacho a weak scumread? HOW ON EARTH IS AA WITHIN LIGHTYEARS OF YOUR TOWNLIST #300
Yes #303
No, stahp it Nacho #304
Wait, scum don't have day-talk? How you know this AD? #306
Nacho, why you being dense brah #308
I don't understand why HD has such a hardon for the buddying thing between Majiffy and Thor, why is it surprising when flowchart people buddy #313
Nacho, how does massclaim get us free scum? #314
Irony #315
Me and Mala can be friends, at least until Mara comes back #317
Reading my mind, B&B #318
No it doesn't, Slandaar-scum does the same shit #322
Must see if Nacho elaborates on these mollie-towntells #329
<3 Mala #331
Jiffy just Jiffied Ceph #340
lol Slandaar #345
Ryu thinks Oversoul isn't scummy, huehuehuehue #349
You tell him Nacho #350
+1 for not wanting to massclaim, -1 for giving Majiffy +1 #357
Fuzzy is providing major content, fuzzy -50 #361
Back and forth between HD and Jiffy getting interesting #360s
Strawman = involves mischaracterizing your opponent's position in order to present a weaker argument than they have actually given, thereby allowing you to defeat it. Good to know.
fuzzy wuzzy was a bear, fuzzy wuzzy had no hair, fuzzy wuzzy is a scummy fuzzy #381
Wow, Cephrir repeating shit people have already said, awesome #398
Agree with you 100% Red #416
Why Nacho? #417
Nero is being obnoxious #418
The fuck? #421 Maybe he's town after all, fuzzy scum usually has to try harder to come up with something that ridiculous
Bad Red, bad #423
Good bacde, good #427
Why you not voting fenix then, Mala? #428
Um, cause he's posting now? #437
Congratulations fenix, you just described Jiffy's normal play as a scumtell #448
Insinuations by Red, think he's reaching a bit #461
Uhhhh #466
Red, you do realize the case against OS is greater than just his claim rite #468
Very yes, Nero #472
Nachomamma, stickin it to the man since 2009 #473
Slandaar tunneling Bulba, interesting #479
Don't like Mac #481
Agree with DLG 100% on AA #494, not so hot on him wanting Nacho to repeat himself wrt Oversoul #493
Slandaar is scum #504
Back and forth between OS and Desp is fake as fuck #513-522
Nero is town #523
Mala's town too #525
HD still tunnelin #531
At least I agree with him on ryu #534
Desp is finally doing something #539
Bulba is town too #540
Slandaar actually doing something, mayhaps he's not scum after all #541
Oversoul needs to die #555
rofl bacde #566
Hey, CTD's back #594
Nacho/Nero repartee is weird #600s
And Mara comes in and messes my Mala read up (as usual, <3 Mara), those are terrible reasons to vote Nacho #626
Yerp, Ceph is scum #639
Hay Bulb, stop bein fluffy #640
Om is still useless #649
"I plan to lurk, guys" #650
And Bulba agrees #651
Ceph calling CTD town via CTD's self-meta, lulz #655
First thing Ceph has said I agree with #660
Liking Slandaar better now #663

All right. All caught up now. Reads list(in no particular order), based off above notes:

Town	Null leaning Town	Null	Null Leaning Scum	Scum
Nacho B&B Nero Fuzzy	AK Bulb Slandaar Bacde	Everyone else	CTD Mac Desperado Red Ryu	Oversoul Om the Destroyer Cephrir

I'll give explanations on the reads to whoever wants them. Or you can trawl through my notes (only for the daring, you've been warned). Voting later, people are yelling at me it's time to go, catch ya'll later!

[Syryana]

Ugh, 10 more pages of stuff to trawl through since I posted yesterday. Will be caught up by midnight.

[Syryana]

Hokay, catching up now.

[Syryana]

I did, but things got in the way. On page 31 now.

[Syryana]

Catchup:
[spoiler='My perilous notes"]Scumread hating my townreads lol #670
And HD's readlist sucks, why is OS/Cephrir town #675
Need to press Bacde, make some ketchup #677
OS and AA are now confirmed buddies #682, she gets mad at DLG calling her scum but does not OMGUS, this is not town AA
Bacde is destroying my townread on him #686, #687
Fenix's tearing apart of Bulba's case sucks #691
B&B tunneling on indies #699
I read this three times, still no idea what AA is trying to say in #710, but the weak defense of B&B makes me uneasy
Slandaar probtown #711
Bulba's case is interesting #714
Om's rebuttal is interesting #721
Why does the kitty have OS as obvtown #727
Fuzzy sheeping, don't know what to make of it #734
Utility lynch B&B and OS? What the absolute fuck? #735
Baby Spice got to Page 19 and think HD is just now posting? Either you're confusing HD with Om or you think Om's posts are good, either way, that's awful. Actually, that whole post is pretty awful #749
Desp's #750 raises me hairs
Bulb is misrepping the fuck out of HD #752
DLG's reads list makes me warm and fuzzy inside #764
Desp's analysis of DLG does not #765
CTD's massclaim analysis is interesting, but it also would have been more useful like 20 pages ago #768
Hay another of my scumreads said my reads suck! MISSIONACCOMMPLISHED #797
Mala's 799 is interesting. Curious why Nacho is scum to you, Slandaar's wishy washiness makes me think he's town
Desp #813 is the first thing he's said I agree with
Oversoul admits he was lying as a reaction test, we need to lynch this #820
OS, why are you taking Nero's trolling literally #831
Nacho is back <3 #842
Bacde confbiasing the fuck out of Nacho now #855
Yes Desp, Eddie is anti-town. Stop buddying bulba. #886
Mala gets piiiiiiiiissed #900
Why didn't you believe me when I told you Ceph was scum Bacde #910
Burden of proficiency if I've ever seen it #911
Baby Spice is pinging my scumdar hard #919
Red's points in #927 are blatantly retarded
Misreps of Nacho, brought to you by Red Ryu #930
#933 misreps R us
Bacde's #937 is even more awful
Tired and don't care anymore[/spoiler]
@Mala 799, she's in the scum pile, I missed her name when I was making the table. Also I'm reading her posts, that part of the notes was me being irritated and snarky.

Updated table (still in no particular order):

Town	Null leaning Town	Null (1)	Null (2)	Null Leaning Scum	Scum
Nacho B&B Nero DLG AK Slandaar	CTD Fuzzy	Thor Seanald ActionDan Rondar	Om the Destroyer Bulb	Mac Bacde Baby Spice	Eddie Fenix AA9 Red Ryu Cephrir Desperado Oversoul

1)Null because inactivity
2)Null because can't decide what to do with these people

Brief description of scum reads:
OS has admitted he lied about his role and I don't buy his reaction test BS. May reevaluate depending on what he got from said test (if it's damn convincing). Red's misrepping the hell out of Nacho and charging really hard to get Nacho lynched on said misreps. AA9 is not playing her town game (I'll elaborate more on this later). I don't think I've seen a single post from Eddie I liked. Ceph scumread came from repeating points already made in #398, his #639 was blatantly awful, calling CTD town from CTD's self meta in #665.

Mac hasn't done anything to change my read one way or another since my last update. Bacde got slapped down here because his content is shit and he actually used Burden of Proficiency against Nacho. Fuck that. Baby Spice got down here also because content is shit and I hated #919.

CTD got moved to leaning town because I liked his massclaim analysis (though it would have done better about 10 pages ago) and I liked his more recent posts. Fuzzy got downgraded to lean because I didn't like his ridiculously blatant sheeping.

Om and Bulb are in this special category I made just for them. The tunneling they've done on each other for like 20 pages now makes me feel like they're both town, but both have individual little things I don't like on them, enough that I don't know what to do with them. They are most likely both the same alignment, however.

I'm not explaining my town reads right now. I'm dead. Good night.

Oh, and VOTE: Red Ryu

[Syryana]

Because I liked it. Why?

[Syryana]

41 pages already..?
i am less then two days behind and i have hell to catch up again!!!!
Slow down ladies...

ok AA9 is scum too guys plz lynch this after we lynch scum nacho and then I get NKed for being too awesome

Since there's always the possibility I'm wrong about Nacho....
I'll help you lynch Nacho today if you help me lynch AA tomorrow.

[Syryana]

Because you're scum.

[Syryana]

I'm in the midst of making a case in another game so the long version will have to wait. However, the short version is I've seen your town game and this is nothing like it.

[Syryana]

@mod, I'll be V/LA until Wednesday.

I'll make an effort not to break the "1 content post a day" rule though.

<<< It's not a rule, but a preference. So long as you're posting at least once per three days with content, you're within activity boundaries. V/LA has been noted, though. >>>

[Syryana]

Obligatory content post:
Forget it Bacde, I'm not helping you lynch Nacho. He's town.
We should lynch Red or AA9 today.

[Syryana]

Alright, V/LA over. Wall inc.

[Syryana]

Hokay. Brief overview of what I missed revealed people are still stuck on Nacho (and B&B still has diarrhea of the mouth).

Time to deal with this Nacho thing.

Spoiler: Nacho stuff

Alright, a general summary of the case against Nacho:

Why does that make him scummy?

Let me help you.

Day 2 3 VT dead in 13man game;

Sland: lets massclaim.

Nacho is town in these quotes...

3/4 PR out of 7 town alive helps us narrow down things considerably

Scum can fakeclaim but it will be obvious when they do.

really
because massclaims are kind of shitty when we have an SK
since they kind of cut through the PRs pretty easily
and if we have a massclaim then he will have no reason to claim town

i don't necessarily think we have an SK
but the possibility exists, and it makes massclaim shitty

I claim Doc

if we decided to massclaim, then yes that would be a good idea.
i still think it's a horrible idea to massclaim. maybe a little bit less than i did before, but it's still a horrible idea.
you also wouldn't be conftown with an un-CC'ed doctor claim

He should probably die. (In case anyone doesn't understand why; 1. there is possible SK in this game no reason to assume there isn't and 2. the situation in said game was a much greater spot to massclaim than here and 3. I had a solution to ensure SK issue wasn't an issue; the vig claims first or no massclaim)

Nacho is scum trying to push an idea he thinks will help his team.

The Oversoul case is pretty bad also; yes everyone could see its a fakeclaim but it doesn't mean it comes from scum.

My case is not a "meta" case

Its a "nacho is a better player than this" case

in addition to a

"I have caught scum doing the same thing nacho is doing" case

in addition to a

"nacho is making scummy comments and ignoring me in a scummy way hidden within all his most recent posts" case

B&tB We can't worry about lynching nacho because of "what if he's town"

if he's town he's even more worthless this game because he's pushing stupid cases

I'm no longer going to worry about lynching my scumreads just because I read a stronger player as scum, I can depend on myself

Bacde stopped pushing a sound meta case the moment he started arguing that Nacho would be a good lynch even if town

ok CTD is scum

this is the ONLY post that I made that could even be CONSTRUED as being similar to what CTD is saying that I'm doing:

B&tB We can't worry about lynching nacho because of "what if he's town"

if he's town he's even more worthless this game because he's pushing stupid cases

I'm no longer going to worry about lynching my scumreads just because I read a stronger player as scum, I can depend on myself

I'm not arguing that nacho is a good lynch if he's town

in fact, I believe the opposite

but nacho isn't a worthless player when he's town, and for some reason this game he's playing worthlessly

do you get the picture? There's a reason that I scumread nacho right now

Yes, I've played with Nacho before.

I also considered Ceph to be null, so that part isn't exactly an issue. His read overall has been a tossup for me. I felt he had good motivation in his posts, but Jiffy convinced me of a light for other posts of him, which is why he's null and not one way or the other. He showed a distaste for fuzzy when fuzzy made the unnecessary, and rather opportunistic pseudo-contribution, post, which I'm all for. Whether he would have voted if I didn't or not, I won't know, but I don't feel the sheep is explicitly a scummy sheep regardless.

Besides, we still have almost a week, so we have time. The fact of the matter is, I don't think Nacho is a good enough lynch at this point in time. His beginning was crap, but I like his recent posts, even if I don't agree with them.

<<< Actually, it's over a week--almost two weeks, in fact. Deadline for D1 was set at three weeks, not two, meaning you've still got a week and a half (12 days as of this edit) left. Deadline isn't next Monday, but the Monday after that. >>>

Nacho knows that his more recent posts are better,

that's why he made them

but nothing in his recent posts screamed town

AND YOU'D BETTER BELIEVE ME WHEN I SAY NACHO MAKES POSTS THAT SCREAM TOWN

the entire purpose of his "reads" posts was just to get more townreads from people not confident enough to lynch him

did you notice how nacho asked me if I saw a "keyword" or something in his posts? He was trying to act like he was confident that I wasn't reading his posts (even though I've been reading every letter). The entire way nacho is ignoring the wagon on him and ESPECIALLY ignoring me

SCREAMS

scum-nacho, and the way CTD is misrepresenting every aspect of my posts screams scum-partner

There's a reason nacho's play improved (only slightly) RIGHT AFTER I started this bandwagon on him for him having shitty posts. ITS. BECAUSE. NACHO. IS. SCUM.

PS--just wanted to add this in because I was thinking about how shitty CTD is at representing me. If I was ever "backing off" nacho, then why was I so insistent that he be vigged? And why did I never unvote him? Oh, I guess I was never backing off him in the first place

So, in short:

• Nacho's pushing massclaim, he hated it before as town, therefore he's scum
  
• The Oversoul case is shit
  
• Nacho isn't obviously town
  
• Nacho is usually more useful than this

Let's deal with massclaim first.

Spoiler: Nacho's massclaim thoughts

I agree with a D1 massclaim here.

And we're starting with the informed townie.

Yeah, not mass-claiming. Sorry. I've had some bad experiences with mass claims in games, and every time it led to a scum victory, because the game became less about scum hunting and scum tells and more about what was probable. It also puts our PRs in harms way. I'd rather catch scum the old fashioned way while the PRs do their job in secret, until they feel it is in the best interest of the town to out themselves. So sorry, not claiming. Deal with it.

Some bad experiences with massclaims in games? Link them. Just because you had massclaims do bad things in other places doesn't mean they will here. Meanwhile, the preference for the "old-fashioned" way seems like nothing more than preference. We're still catching them the old-fashioned way, we just have a little more information to work with.

Amurika Mafia: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=25487

In AMURIKA, massclaiming did only good things for you guys. If you allowed Gorgon and Peregrine to have a little more time before claiming, Peregrine would've had a Public Investigator claim which would've pretty much took away all chance of him being lynched ever. In True Love, that's a different mechanic. We're not claiming lovers, we're claiming roles.

@Nacho: But the massclaim in Amurika also allowed Peregrine to escape being lynched for 2 days, because he wrote off any reason given as having to do with his name claim. He made it to Lylo because the claim gave him cover. The role and name claims became a distraction more than a help, and scum, especially Peregrine, were able to get farther than they should.

But that ended up happening because you guys started playing the "oh, I don't think he's scum because his name fits" game. We have no names to worry about here.

Why are your views so polar opposite to our recent meeting Nacho?

They aren't, necessarily. I became a little more favorable to massclaims with possible SKs after how that game turned out, though, but I've always been a fan of them as I said several times. I just didn't want to massclaim when I already had several strong scum suspects that were probably going to get lynched.

This activity from HD makes me think he is town.

That's stupid.

[

Bulba, but are you willing to this game?

No.

Even if there are a majority of people who think it's a good idea?

Yes, I will not claim as part of a massclaim. I seriously hate it that much. I understand that I may die because of it (see Newbie 1337), but at least that leaves something secret and unknown to scum (Tracey was right in this regard, and she should not have claimed during Amurika Mafia.).

But leaving things secret in a massclaim is not that important, especially so early on. Scum won't care about your role when they have plenty of other power roles to go through; meanwhile, the scum we can catch will be hiding behind your refusal. It doesn't help anyone if you refuse to massclaim but don't stop the massclaim; in fact, that's pretty much the most anti-town way you can respond to the plan.

I don't think it's a bad idea to start a massclaim early, get players with good synergy to get working with each other, get a little info from PRs, catch one or two free scum, dominate.

I don't like the idea of mass claiming. I rather not at least not on Day1.

Why not?

HD, Mollie is town, so you'll have to put up with Majiffy.

So, to sum that up, Nacho thinks massclaim is a good idea and wants to know what other people think about it. Scum motivation? Where's the "pushing massclaim" that people (read Bacde, Slandaar) have claimed Nacho's been doing? I don't see his massclaim stance as scummy and "he didn't like massclaim as town before" is frankly shit.

Point 2: The Oversoul case. Well then, let's look at the Oversoul case!

Spoiler: The Oversoul Case

Oversoul, your claim is completely useless.

Vote: Oversoul

Nacho, don't be so blind

All your claim amounts to is a useless role. I can easily see that there are two killing roles in the game after the first night, after there are two kills. Meanwhile, your claim is pretty great for an SK because nobody in their right mind will shoot you. Why didn't you wait until night to claim?

I wanted to nip CTD's plan in the bud because I think it would be highly detrimental to the town.

That's not why you claimed, now is it?

And why wouldn't anyone shoot me?

Why would anyone want to protect me? I'm not exactly useful anymore.

No would want to shoot you because you are useless. You don't need protection because you won't be shot.

Also I think the operative word is *at least*

It doesn't say for a fact that there are only 2 killing roles in the game

I know. That doesn't change I will probably know how many killing roles are in the game by Day 2.

I am dumb, present, and currently busy, which means I will not be able to re-read this thread until late tonight at the earliest.

Can anyone summarize the proceedings thus far?

Oversoul claimed an informed townie with useless information, got called out on it, said he had more information.
Otherwise, we're talking about a massclaim.

Oversoul, your claim is completely useless.

Vote: Oversoul

Bad claim? Yes.

Was it scummy in itself? No.

It was scummy in itself because that role would never exist. Now he's scummy for other reasons, but the claim still sucks.

Your assuming again and showboat foresight that you even considered that he was town.

If I lynch him, it will be on his play today not his role.

This game constantly requires us to take leaps of faith and assume things. When you play, you assume there is a way to distinguish whether someone gets a role PM that says "you win with town" from "you win with scum". You assume that if you find scum, you will be able to convince people to get them lynched. You assume scum will do this, you assume that people will do that, you assume that this game is possible for your side to win. You back up these assumptions with evidence. I making an assumption about the setup that SHOULD be obvious to most of you, Oversoul is claiming something that is completely useless to us. What use is a role whose information will be revealed by Day 2 (or even by Day 3 if someone gets lucky)?

Mafia would not figure that info out on D1 off their size when they lack to knowledge of what town has.

We could try and piece it by D3, but we still could lack info on how kills work, what if they are alternating with opposite scum teams, one gets it on odd night, the other on even nights? What if some of these were town one shots? We don't know this til claims and flip roll around. Off how many people die is not a surefire tell.

Mafia would figure out if there were two teams D1 based on size unless the teams are very uneven, which is unlikely because this is a normal game and not a theme game where powers are a lot better than numbers. We could probably piece it together on D2; town one shots don't really matter much since vigs usually use their shots early. If the only information an informed townie has is "there are at least two killing roles" and the other killing role is a town one-shot, then that information doesn't really help us much except to confirm the one-shot vig if the kill doesn't go through, which is unlikely unless he's an idiot. We don't KNOW for sure by Day 2, but 9 times out of 10 we can take a damn good guess, and we don't really need an informed townie to tell us that we're correct. That was my logic for pushing Oversoul; I knew he was lying, and, because I saw that it had more scum motivation than town motivation, I pushed him for it.

I don't even know why you think that I'm mafia for seeing through a fakeclaim and pushing someone for it; acceptable town responses are to monitor, or to put him under pressure to see how, if at all, he decides to retract his fakeclaim. In this case, Oversoul said "oh yeah it was a gambit that I did because people attack me when I do weird things" or some shit like that, so yes, I am a little hesitant to back down when until recently everything he has posted has had to do with reactions from his gambit that he hasn't really talked about or who's ignoring massclaim or gambit claim, which, if we're talking about "mechanical and fake", then Oversoul's analysis of things definitely seems like both of those.

There's this:

My claim was a gambit. I am not an informed townie. I made that claim because I wanted to see the reactions and judge whether or not anyone would jump down my throat to get me lynched for it and so far only Nacho really committed that crime.

As to why I contradicted myself, I did because I legitimately wasn't thinking when I answered the first time. I kept being vague or outright not answering the question because I wanted more people to react to my claim and unfortunately only a handful of players did.

Where "reactions" isn't really that good of a reason. Why informed townie? When

did

you decide to claim informed townie?

Okay, summing up the Oversoul case: Oversoul claimed informed townie. The information given was generic ("there are at least 2 NKs") and he promised more information later. He later admitted he was lying and the whole thing was a reaction test. So Nacho is scummy for tunneling this case? O RLY? Why haven't people flipped seven shits that Oversoul admitted he fakeclaimed? Why would Oversoul fakeclaim in the first place? A reaction test? Why are people buying that?

In short, Nacho tunneling Oversoul is not scummy.

Next, Nacho isn't obviously town (ergo, he's scum) and I'll go ahead and combine point four with this:

Spoiler: Wait Bacde, what?

Bacde stopped pushing a sound meta case the moment he started arguing that Nacho would be a good lynch even if town

ok CTD is scum

this is the ONLY post that I made that could even be CONSTRUED as being similar to what CTD is saying that I'm doing:

B&tB We can't worry about lynching nacho because of "what if he's town"

if he's town he's even more worthless this game because he's pushing stupid cases

I'm no longer going to worry about lynching my scumreads just because I read a stronger player as scum, I can depend on myself

I'm not arguing that nacho is a good lynch if he's town

in fact, I believe the opposite

but nacho isn't a worthless player when he's town, and for some reason this game he's playing worthlessly

do you get the picture? There's a reason that I scumread nacho right now

Nacho knows that his more recent posts are better,

that's why he made them

but nothing in his recent posts screamed town

AND YOU'D BETTER BELIEVE ME WHEN I SAY NACHO MAKES POSTS THAT SCREAM TOWN

the entire purpose of his "reads" posts was just to get more townreads from people not confident enough to lynch him

did you notice how nacho asked me if I saw a "keyword" or something in his posts? He was trying to act like he was confident that I wasn't reading his posts (even though I've been reading every letter). The entire way nacho is ignoring the wagon on him and ESPECIALLY ignoring me

SCREAMS

scum-nacho, and the way CTD is misrepresenting every aspect of my posts screams scum-partner

There's a reason nacho's play improved (only slightly) RIGHT AFTER I started this bandwagon on him for him having shitty posts. ITS. BECAUSE. NACHO. IS. SCUM.

PS--just wanted to add this in because I was thinking about how shitty CTD is at representing me. If I was ever "backing off" nacho, then why was I so insistent that he be vigged? And why did I never unvote him? Oh, I guess I was never backing off him in the first place

If you are town, do you know how stupid this is? You're basically saying you're willing to put town down -4 if you're wrong. Where's the town motivation in that?

Pride.

Does anyone else see how nacho makes a post like this, and then a bunch of townsfolk all say "WTF IT WAS PRIDE?! SCREW THAT! WE CAN'T LYNCH NACHO"

Trust me, nacho knows what he's doing, and nacho knows how to play scum

Guys, it wasn't pride

Pride has absolutely nothing to do with it

NACHO. IS. SCUM.

thats all there is to it

If ANYTHING, it has more to do with experimentation than pride, I'm experimenting with a new style

I like to call it "anti-scum to the extreme"

Nacho isn't playing to "out his reads" or "find scum" this game, he's

manipulating people

(and he can do it with one word even as shown w/ the pride post)

that is not the way town-nacho plays

Look at these two posts intended to manipulate me using fear out of my push on nacho:

Mollie, Bacde, I'm not screaming at you guys for being idiots this game because you do have a point because I'm not exactly happy with my reads yet. It's not that I'm lacking motivation for this game and it isn't that I'm being useless (that's bullshit, Bacde), but I definitely am not being as aggressive and on point this game because I just don't have things worked out yet. I have a pretty good scumread in Desperado, a pretty decent town core, but I don't feel comfortable with the game to the point that I usually do. Although, Bacde:

if nacho flips town you are suspect #1

If I flip town, you're living in my scumlist for a while. You owe me that much.

Will you?

Also, why has he forgotten about this:

That's fucking stupid. I want you to follow my reads.

If he wants me to follow his reads, why isn't he pushing them harder? If he wants me to follow his reads, why does he keep saying to me "No you have a point I haven't been playing as well as I'd like this game"

Guys, excuses like that are scummy on their own. But when he simultaneously says that he's unhappy with his reads, but ALSO wants me to follow his reads?

Scum.

So... Nacho is scum because: He's ignoring the wagon on him. He's ignoring his main attacker, Bacde. He's not actively scumhunting. Well, considering the quality case built up against him and the fact that he'd pretty much caught Oversoul since that fakeclaim at Daystart, that's hardly surprising. He's not pushing his reads? I don't know, the fact that he's been voting Oversoul since Daystart might be a clue. The rest of his reads Nacho himself admitted he's not happy with. Why would he push them?

W.r.t. not scumhunting:

Spoiler: I guess this is Nacho not scumhunting

Oversoul, your claim is completely useless.

Vote: Oversoul

Nacho, don't be so blind

All your claim amounts to is a useless role. I can easily see that there are two killing roles in the game after the first night, after there are two kills. Meanwhile, your claim is pretty great for an SK because nobody in their right mind will shoot you. Why didn't you wait until night to claim?

I wanted to nip CTD's plan in the bud because I think it would be highly detrimental to the town.

That's not why you claimed, now is it?

And why wouldn't anyone shoot me?

Why would anyone want to protect me? I'm not exactly useful anymore.

No would want to shoot you because you are useless. You don't need protection because you won't be shot.

Also I think the operative word is *at least*

It doesn't say for a fact that there are only 2 killing roles in the game

I know. That doesn't change I will probably know how many killing roles are in the game by Day 2.

Your assuming again and showboat foresight that you even considered that he was town.

If I lynch him, it will be on his play today not his role.

This game constantly requires us to take leaps of faith and assume things. When you play, you assume there is a way to distinguish whether someone gets a role PM that says "you win with town" from "you win with scum". You assume that if you find scum, you will be able to convince people to get them lynched. You assume scum will do this, you assume that people will do that, you assume that this game is possible for your side to win. You back up these assumptions with evidence. I making an assumption about the setup that SHOULD be obvious to most of you, Oversoul is claiming something that is completely useless to us. What use is a role whose information will be revealed by Day 2 (or even by Day 3 if someone gets lucky)?

why did you care about her reasoning?

but if she did have a decent reason she wasn't...?
she just found you?

Nacho is a read we both share, neither of us like the mass-claim and neither of us like his push on OS who we both think is probably town.

I figured that he was lying, so I pushed him for it. The massclaim idea you might not like, but I don't really see how that makes me scum.

though I have quite a fair amount of reason for Nacho-scum

I've heard "massclaim, summary, OS is town". That's about it.

Hey Nacho, thoughts on Cehprir?

I don't like the way he's responding so far, but I'm still waiting for the wheels to turn a little more before I give a solid read on him.

I'm actually down to lynch nacho

this feels like scum-nacho to me

(how was that as a contribution?)

You got me all excited when you said you were gonna provide reasoning later...

town-nacho would not have tunneled this idiotic OS case for this long

but its the perfect case for him to push as scum

It's also a good case to push as town, considering he was lying and it's a shitty gambit as town.

pfft. Nacho badgering mover asking why Mollie called me an "indie" is just retarded and scummy. That's all that needs to be said.

Why?

VOTE: Bulb
Sheeping. Etc.

Hey fuzzy, nice of you to join us? Where have you been?

People should put more votes on Nacho.

Red Ryu! Why didn't you like my observations on Oversoul?

I made that claim because I wanted to see the reactions and judge whether or not anyone would jump down my throat to get me lynched for it and so far only Nacho really committed that crime.

Why did you think that anyone would jump down your throat to get you lynched for it?

Mac seems town so far. There's not a whole lot pointing either way, but I like his interactions with fuzzy so far; fuzzy is a player that's pretty hard to nail down, and Mac has been aggressively attacking him, trying to get something out of it. I also thought the point made in #746 was pretty good.

CTD also seems fairly town so far, although his reasons for being town are a hell of a lot easier to explain. I've seen him push the massclaim idea before as scum, and this is a different beast entirely. I like that he followed up on it after I started easing up a lot (mostly his analysis), and the way his townread on me formed and then weakened a little bit was extremely transparent and townish. He was willing to defend his idea when he got a little traction, and when that traction ran out, he still found something more from it. He also easily found other things to look at and didn't stall in coming up with scumreads and townreads, regardless of his massclaiming shenanigans. He's probably town.

Cephrir's sort of gotten railroaded into defending me a couple of times, but has maintained sufficient paranoia of me the entire game. I like that because it weakens the wagon and weakens the claim on the wagon, but doesn't mean that he actually gains any cred for defending me. His attack on Thor for being overaggressive seemed a little strange, but it was a fair attack considering his mindset, and his progression from Thor to Oversoul was pretty genuine. His mid-back off from B&B seemed fairly town motivated; he was comfortable in arguing with them, but held back a little when the argument pretty much became a semantics fight. His response to B&B accusing him of having unexplained townreads was the reads list in #797, which is a fitting response to the interaction and seemed more like a "screw you" townie response than scum under pressure in the least bit, considering he wasn't under a lot of pressure and could've easily dismissed B&B or bought time by telling them to explain townreads first. Overall, fairly town.

DLG asking me if I still had an early townread on Arc before voting her was sort of strange. It was an early vote and he didn't really have any other suspects, so seeking my approval before making a vote, whether he has me as a townread or not, seems like excessive caution. The attack on ArcAngel lacked a lot as well; I don't mind attacks on someone for not scumhunting, but attacking her for spending no time to seek reasons behind why massclaim is a bad idea, or attacking her because she's posting nothing more than a compliment to the mod... that seems pretty opportunistic. His townreads disappearing on B&B and I seem like they are going away for trivial reasons, but worse is the Bulbazak scumread which comes out of nowhere that he never explains. CTD has a really good point about at the bottom of #957.

Nero Cain is trolling most of the time. Then he latched onto the third party thing, then he made fun of mollie, then he tried to bring as much attention to the situation as possible. It doesn't really seem like a particular strong scum strategy, but I sort of liked that he made an attempt to read the people he was pushing policy lynches on and is pushing a real life scumread instead of the people he generally finds scummy anyways. Town.

I seem to be pretty good at reading Bacde most days. He's probably town again.

Red Ryu's logic in voting me is... weird, but the rest of his posting isn't that bad. The way he's posting the case on me with the whole "he deliberately refused to even consider OS as town", frustration when arguing with Bulbazak, seems fairly genuine, especially since he continues to push me after Oversoul outed as a liar. I don't like how he's so completely and thoroughly tunneling on me in a way similar to Bacde; I would like him to give reads on other people as well.

Syryana read isn't so developed yet, although if I was forced to make a call, I'd lean town. I think that the waffling on me midgame after buddying me so hard was fairly genuine, though; it seems like a waste to butter me up so much and then stab me in the back three posts later if his aim was to get me on his side.

Desperado's early posting hurts a fair bit. Vaguely supports massclaim, sort of talks to B&B about the Nero = indy read everyone was talking about, small attack on Ryu. His first significant anything is his attack on DLG, which is a location I like, but then the whole accusation of "DLG isn't scumhunting and is being a hypocrite for expecting AA9 to scumhunt when he is not" sort of fell flat; he said DLG's townreads were surface and not good enough, but they were still townreads. It was still scumhunting, whether it was fake scumhunting or real scumhunting. Then, DLG posts a bunch while he's typing the case, Desp acknowledges as much, then posts 10 minutes later that "no, not good" while posting other things at the same time, which seems like he just waited a little while but never actually read any of DLG's posting unless he's a god of speedreading or some shit. His hop onto my wagon is awkward and doesn't have anything in his ISO hinting at it, so that will have to be explained later. Scumread.

Baby Spice has been lurking like hell, for one. Her excuse of "worrying about games that is endgaming" shows me that she's lurking and is conscious of it, but the rest of her play says that she's pretty okay with lurking hard as shit. I hate the "wall battle doesn't look like town v town but B&B is scum" bit, and she tosses out reads so randomly that I can't really see a thought process behind any of it. Lean scum, but not heavily.

I don't understand why it took Slandaar so long to start attacking me based on massclaim discrepancies, considering he brought it up early then sort of postured for a while, then jumped on my wagon when it started to gain momentum. His posting elsewhere has been just weak as shit; he's thrown out a few random reads, but he took FOREVER to vote for some reason and he's probably scum.

can you explain how you are using this as a scumtell (presumably?) on me when you just said this?

It was an explanation of the earlier post. He's not scumhunting that much, but he's definitely scumhunting.

Your final point about me either a) not reading or b) being a speed reader is just...weird. If I c/p'd all four of DLG's posts into Word, how many words do you think it would be? A few thousand? I can read multiple pages in ten minutes. Your assumption that I didn't read his posts because enough time did not elapse inbetween me saying I would and saying that they did nothing to alleviate my scumread on him just strikes me as a lazy attempt to discredit me. Have I given an indication elsewhere in this thread that I'm not reading it?

Depends on what you're looking for, I guess. I might be different, but I focus a hell of a lot closer on suspect's posting than everyone else, and reading DGB's post would take a little longer than that for me. I guess what I found strange was not that you read it that quickly, but that you read it that quickly AND decided you didn't see anything worth commenting on in that chunk.

One last thing...CTD proposed the mass claim that I'm scummy for "vaguely supporting" (what was vague about "I support a mass claim for all of the reasons Crash outlined in his big post about it", btw?) and his case on DLG is very similar to mine, yet you have him as town and me as scum. Can you explain that?

CTD didn't say that you vaguely supported massclaim, and his DLG case had absolutely nothing to do with why I found him town.

I question his current vote, not just because it's on someone I read as town and unlikely to lead anywhere, but also because there's a good wagon waiting to happen on his second choice, DLG.

I think that DLG and Desp are unlikely partners at this point, so I'd rather take care of the stronger scumread first.

and what is practically a billboard is his hedge on spice girl; he should be all over that shit cos those are the kind of things he tries to push for in a lynch. spice girl is doing the same thing that a player in another game did and he was all over her (KISS) and he was correct for being so. so it makes me think there is a spice girl/nacho association in there somehow, not sure what to make of it. especially since she beetlejuiced him into the thread. it almost read like a "hey buddy if you keep avoiding the thread you are going to get lynched so get in here!" call out.

You're right about me not picking up on the Baby Spice read harder than I should have been.

town nacho has yet to reach out to me and this is something that town nacho usually does even if it is to just say "hey mollie I am town now stfu and stop being difficult"

You're not being difficult this game.

Have you ever played with nacho before? He's not a useless player

There's a reason he's playing the way he's playing this game--he's scum

Useless is not the word for it.

Nacho, why did you post 5 analyses, and then wait another... 26-27 hours before posting the rest?

My laptop broke and I'm forced to play mafia in a public library. I got kicked out.

How is a legitimate argument indicative of being town? Looks to me like they just don't agree on their reads (which according to other hydra players in this game is the norm).

"I think we should call this guy scum."
"No, we should call this guy scum!"
"No, no, that's stupid. We need to attack this guy!"
>.>

Alright, I'm done with that. Next, why we should be lynching Red Ryu or Cephrir or Oversoul! Red first.

Spoiler: Red Post analysis

Oversoul, your claim is completely useless.

Vote: Oversoul

Bad claim? Yes.

Was it scummy in itself? No.

Indeed it was scummy. Why is a claim bad and not scummy? Why, if his claim is true, would he only out part of his pro-town information? Why would a role such as Oversoul is claiming have such completely useless information as OS has provided?

I'm catching up via phone but your saying informed townie can't exist? I've seen this role and been it, why can't he be one. You seem dead certain he can't without asking a single question about his role.

Informed townie where the piece of information given is "there are at least two killing roles" doesn't exist because it's completely fucking useless information. I seriously doubt that it would be involved in any information he was given, but am not sure.

If he is scummy for other reasons tell me why?

Later.

It can't exist because the info is useless?

Hey no. That info is relevant if he is telling the truth.

Vote:Nachomamma8

Let me know if who your mates are sometimee down the road.

Nacho is not arguing an informed townie can't exist. He is arguing that the informed townie

as presented by Oversoul

can't exist. Why aren't you reading what Nacho is writing?

Why do you think he is faking it?

We don't know if he is or not and we can only judge him on his votes for now.

You will not judge Oversoul by actions other than votes? How is that good play? Why are you giving Oversoul a pass on his terrible claim and stating you will analyse nothing but his voting patterns? Why isn't it already blatantly obvious Oversoul is faking the claim?

Hey no. That info is relevant if he is telling the truth.

No, it isn't SINCE WE WOULD KNOW BY DAY 2.

So a doctor wouldn't stop a kill? A poisoner is out of the question. People might opt to not shoot? These abilities might be one shot?

He specifically said roles so I wanted to ask again what that ment paraphrased since that info may or may not count mafia/ other things depending jow it was worded.

What's more you show knowledge you already know something about this situation. Wether he is lying or telling the truth.

Ryu is now implying Nacho is informed due to his Oversoul stance. We've moved from a direct defense of Oversoul to a chainsaw defense of Oversoul.

So a doctor wouldn't stop a kill? A poisoner is out of the question. People might opt to not shoot? These abilities might be one shot?

He specifically said roles so I wanted to ask again what that ment paraphrased since that info may or may not count mafia/ other things depending jow it was worded.

What's more you show knowledge you already know something about this situation. Wether he is lying or telling the truth.

Doctor probably doesn't get a successful protect in a 24 person game N1 unless scum are incompetent or extremely unlucky. Poisoner? Yeah, no. People might opt not to shoot? Most one-shot vigs shoot the first night, and people not shooting is an assumption that isn't likely, sorry.

Your making a lot of assumptions here.

Many of which I don't like.

His info legit tells us either how many bad guys out there can kill/factions Indy, or he is teillng is about town.

What this oes tell me is you have no non mechanical reason, which at worst is bad play not scummy, to single Jim out. You want him dead to get a lynch, not to find scum.

More chainsaw. Nacho has excellent reason to think OS is scum, Ryu can't or doesn't want to see it and is now attacking Nacho for it.

I am because lynching him for just claiming informed townie is not something I will support.

If he has done something scummy, no one has shown it.

So you can't analyze why OS has been scummy, but someone has to show you? If you believe him to be town, why aren't you showing evidence of that? Why chainsaw Nacho instead?

But again.

This all comes back to the key problem and one I want to lynch you over because you're making it obvious you're not trying to read OverSoul, you're trying to lynch him for claiming Informed Townie.

You say scum safe claim, but you lack anything to show he is scum.

Ignore the claim, what did he do today that is worth a vote outside of that? Myself and others aren't going to vote him for it.

I think Nacho has pretty clearly shown the scum motivation behind OS's claim. Why can't you see it?

You got any kind of a read towards ArcAngel9?

Null, I don't like Arc's posts but I don't know enough about him right now.

I think he is newer to mafia, since his posts aren't really adding too much but I'm not sure of his intent.

He needs to post more.

You blast Nacho for his assumptions, but you make them yourself on AA9? She's completed enough games to not be considered new. Why wait on more posting? Why not meta her to figure out her alignment?

People should put more votes on Nacho.

Where's the case on Nacho? All we've seen thus far is "I don't like his Oversoul stance", and that's not a case.

Om is leaning town, he has interest for town to move in the right way. Is looking for direct intent.
Bacde is most likely town. Goofy but town.
Oversoul town if role is legit
Thor still dumbtown.
CrashTextDummi leaning scum, he is caught up with Oversoul the same reason why Nacho is scum. The one difference is how mechanical and simple he is taking his reads like his post #770.
Nacho has been tunneling a read and shown he has never tried to read into intent, he has shown he wants a lynch.

If you aren't listed I don't have a read/I forgot what it was. so null until they gain my interest. Or I just didn't read it, forgot how a 20+ man game was like.

Pretty blatant misrep of Nacho here. Nacho hasn't shown interest in OS's intent? When the whole reason Nacho is voting OS is

the scum intent behind an obvious fakeclaim

?

guys take out the head and the body will die

Nacho is scumbutt #1 and I REFUSE to even CONSIDER bandwagoning anyone else until we get this situation resolve

no. I'm not gonna vote for Nacho. Not now or ever.

Cop this guy.

Wants to direct a cop investigate onto someone that disagrees on his Nacho read. At best a stupid suggestion, at worst a scum attempt to waste a cop investigate.

wtf no.

Directing who should be copped is far better.

You let people know who you want, if you are the cop, or you tell the cop who may not have a good pick who might be one.

If he dicides to go with a different pick fine by me.

But fuck that, I will direct what I choose.

Someone calls him scum because of his attempted direct, this is his response. His reasoning for wanting to direct the cop investigate sucks.

the case on nacho is that nacho rules at mafia

but for some reason this game he is really lame

and his posts are lame

Case-wise, it's a whole lot of nothing. Why are his posts lame? How is this different from his normal meta? Your current case is a lot of Burden of Proficiency. You need more substance if you actually want me to pay any attention and take it seriously.

Him tunneling a null tell is not scummy?

Him refusing to look into the possibility Oversoul is town?

Him not even trying to accept the information Oversoul was providing was possible?

None of this is scummy? Because quite frankly it screams him trying to force a lynch on a slot.

You think Nacho is scum primarily because he's tunneling on Oversoul, but you make no mention of Bacde for doing the exact same thing to Nacho? Also, by this point, OS has admitted his fake claim was a lie, and yet you still tunnel Nacho for voting OS

because he was fakeclaiming

?

the case on nacho is that nacho rules at mafia

but for some reason this game he is really lame

and his posts are lame

Case-wise, it's a whole lot of nothing. Why are his posts lame? How is this different from his normal meta? Your current case is a lot of Burden of Proficiency. You need more substance if you actually want me to pay any attention and take it seriously.

Him tunneling a null tell is not scummy?

Him refusing to look into the possibility Oversoul is town?

Him not even trying to accept the information Oversoul was providing was possible?

None of this is scummy? Because quite frankly it screams him trying to force a lynch on a slot.

But that's not what Bacde said. He said the case was: Nacho is great at mafia. His posts have been lame. Therefore, he is scum.
That's not a case. That's Correlation Implies Causation.

Did Nacho ever say that Oversoul was a null tell? Or is Oversoul just a null tell for you?

Nacho claimed he was gonna lynch Oversoul because on the sole fact, he claimed informed townie and said there were two killing roles in them game.

He said the information was not possible and useless.

It should be quite the opposite, but if the possibility of him thinking this as town and just focusing hard on this is up think again.

He never tried to consider intent or alignment with this, he admitted this when I pressed him on this. He never tried to consider or ask Oversoul past this, he stuff and sat on him all phase. He has not tried to get over it either, he has been sitting on that claim being the scummiest thing on earth and refuses to consider other possibilities here.

Again, he is not trying to hunt scum, he is trying to force a lynch to get a lynch.

That is scum intent.

Misreps of Nacho, still hasn't admitted/noticed OS has admitted to the fakeclaim.

Ryu, I went over everything in your last post in one form or another in my response. The only part I didn't was the part about where claiming that info could be legitimate. What you are failing to take into account in this case is that scum could easily know that information and use it to claim informed townie as a way to gain towncred. In reality, his claim proves absolutely nothing that we couldn't deduce ourselves. He didn't even have a specific number, instead giving himself an out with "at least". Even I could have made that assertion. At no point did Nacho say that the role Informed Townie couldn't exist. He said that an Informed Townie with only that sort of information couldn't exist. The fact that you've continued to push it as hard as you have, despite the evidence against such a view, is mindboggling to me.

No they really wouldn't.

Scum may have an information advantage but they do not know everything town or potentially other factions have.

that fact remains Nacho did not have this knowledge at the time that OS was lying

so his reactions are still legitimate tells.

And no, we won't know about the kills til we know at end game. If anyone tries to say they know how many people can kill by D2 they should go back to playing newbies. You can't ignore other possibilities, even more so in a game this large.

Nacho did infact say

he did not believe his role was legit with that info, which I made the error of posting and you thankfully keep ignoring like an idiot.

He pushed it that far off a nulltell,

when he had no knowledge that his info was not legitimate, that he refused to consider OS was town at all.

The bolded is my biggest issue, town does not do that so easily. Especially just because he claimed informed townie, otherwise he would have unvoted or at least said it was a possibility. The fact is he never did this.

No no no no no no no NONONONONONONO. Like, this is MisRepNachoRUs here. Still ignoring OS's admission, still ignoring Bacde tunneling Nacho.

Let's look at what Red has done this game. Defended Oversoul, tunneled Nacho, attempted to direct night actions and.... that's it. He defends OS from Nacho's initial onslaught, then forgoes the direct defense in favor of chainsawing Nacho. Claims to think Nacho is scum because he never considered OS might be town, even though Nacho says otherwise. Scummier yet, he continues to tunnel Nacho

even after Oversoul admits the lie

. He still has yet to even talk about OS' admission but continues to tunnel Nacho. He also ignores other people (e.g. Bacde) tunneling Nacho even when Nacho's tunneling of OS is one of the main points behind his(Red's) case that Nacho is scum. Red's only other mention of someone that remotely approaches a scumread is Nero Cain which only came up due to Red's attempted direction of the cop's target.

Comprehensive list of reads, with reasons. Now.

Moving right along to Oversoul.

Welp, OS's fakeclaim has been beaten to death, so I'm not going to go over it again. It was fake, he claims it was a reaction test, I don't believe him, moving onward. Let's look at other things he's done instead.

Actually, on second ISO, Oversoul hasn't actually done anything not related to his fakeclaim. He has a couple of token sentences playing with people but by and large his entire ISO deals with his gambit/fakeclaim. So, since he did all that for a reaction test he must have some amazing results, right? Commented my reactions to/analysis of his results

like so

.

Spoiler: His results, faithfully commented

I am going to catalog the reactions to my claim as rejected it, supported it, ignored it.

Rejected it:
Nacho
CTD
Nero Cain
Cephrir
fuzzybutternut
Bulbazak

Supported it:
ArcAngel
Om the Destroyer
Red Ryu
DLG
Thor
Seanald

Ignored it:
BeautyandtheBeast
Slandaar
Desperado
ActionDan
Amethyst Kitty
Bacde
EddieFenix
Mac
Baby Spice

Interesting. Why is this categorized as such? What do you get out of this?

---

I'd like the people in the ignored section to explain why they didn't comment on the mass claim.

---

I'd like to know why Bulbazak and Sry were okay with voting the same wagon that I was voting, despite thinking that I was scum for my claim.

This game has multiple scum. I've no problem helping you bus a buddy. What's your point?

---

Looking at Fuzzy's early early game posts I don't really think he is town. Looking at his activity after the early early game it gets mildly better but not enough to warrant a town read without extensive meta; he doesn't really seem to be scumhunting either. I question, sternly (yes I am looking at you), where the AK hydra got that town read on fuzzy.

If you are curious as to why I don't think fuzzy is town it is for posts like these

So that list is in no order then?

Why did you claim. OS?

If we do that, we're popcorning.

Really, Sland?

Cool.

Multiple Personality disordered. LOL


VOTE: Oversoul

His iso is notably void of any scumhunting whatsoever.

Welcome to fuzzyville, we hope you enjoy your stay.

Upon my reskim (yes I stupidly went page by page instead of iso, I don't know why) of the thread I didn't realize that the support for my slot mainly came from one player, Arcangel. I had not realized how much she was buddying me and calling my wagon bad.
Not to mention she expressed the newb scum fear of "that wagon grew fast, careful of quicklynch!" that I think is typical of newer players still working out the kinks on how to play scum.

I can't read Arc for shit either way, but that is just something I want others to note as it took me by surprise.

It bugs you that she's buddying you like she is, and you still can't decide on her alignment?

I guess I over exaggerated my "support" for the claim when answering CTD mainly because of this fact, but I didn't get as much heat for it as I would like.
I blame the fact that some players were slow starters. Even then, some players, Seanald for example, did go back and comment on it whereas others simply completely ignored it. Some were even close in proximity (by page) to the claim itself, such as Slandaar.

I was under the impression you fakeclaimed in part to kill support for the massclaim. What?

Townies are going to be able to look at the same information as you and come to different conclusions, even if you are town. Welcome to mafia. Welcome to earth. You are not the standard for objectivity. This is patently obvious. Not to mention, guess what? Scum can piggyback on a townie's opinion because they know it's one that came from a townie and therefore a legitimate conclusion that someone could have reached! "He agrees with me": Not a towntell since ever.

I am also interested in Cephrir since he has acted awkwardly with regards to my wagon.
He votes me after attacking my reasoning for the claim and similarly parroting Nacho's reasoning that the town would have the information my Informed status would give them.

Then in the very next post he makes, he considers the possibility that what I said was true, but he views it in a skeptical manner as if he *doesn't* think there are going to be multiple killers. He uses the potential for multiple killers as a way to fence sit on the overall idea of a massclaim in general.

If there are indeed multiple killers in the game, massclaim could lose us a lot of PRs quickly. But it might also result in said killers killing each other more. Conflicted. I do think mods generally account for the possibility, and there were, after all, a million reviewers.

Not to mention he parrots information that *I* said when referring to the fact that "a million reviewers" reviewed the game.

I wouldn't go that far (@283). I'm not stubborn enough to refuse to claim if it's going through anyway, but I'm pretty sure I'm against it. I suppose Oversoul's information was useful after all, because I would abstain otherwise, lulz.

Here he legitimately believes the claim despite everything saying that it influenced his decision to be against the mass claim in general.
If he believes it, his reasoning for the vote on me doesn't apply anymore. Why does he continue to vote me then at this point in the game?

So, you've said all this stuff about Cephrir, what do you think about him? What point were you making? Is he scum, town, indie, jester, what?

Wow, that's a ridiculously self-centered viewpoint. By that logic anyone who suspects you is scum.

Welcome to my scumlist.

Well don't just sit there like a lump on that boring old Oversoul wagon!
Help me push this! It'll be fun, fruitful, and lynch a scum!

~

Good point. It's not like I actually want to lynch Oversoul.

Unvote, Vote: BeautyAndTheBeast

Here he only votes BatB because of Om the Destroyer's prompting even after stating they had just made his scumlist and that their reasoning for the town list is self centered.

That doesn't look like a townie thought process at all in my opinion especially considering he then explains the reasoning behind his vote without ever so much as attempting to do that with my wagon.

---

Red Ryu wagon, I ... don't know why I voted Ryu when the game started. I think it was something that I thought was odd during pregame but I can't be certain. I honestly don't remember.

Why don't you try ISOing Red, that might help.

Red Ryu seems to legitimately believe in my claim asking for further clarification on it as if there was information to be gathered from it.

Yeah, he believes so passionately, he even disregards your admission it was fake. Why not pursue that?

Tid bit, I have actually seen Red Ryu play on his home forum. I dabbled a bit there and Ryu is a moderator. I didn't remember this until he linked back to it. I considered Ryu to be a good player there but his play here just seems different, almost dumber (I don't mean this an insult Ryu). It doesn't seem like he realizes things that I think he should be.

Irrelevant. Why aren't you going after Red?

I think his response to Nacho in 423 is fairly town. It has that townie bravado at the end and shows continued to support for the claim on the basis of the claim itself.

I guess this is also where I get I impression that I had a lot of support because Ryu is supporting me a lot like Arc. I hadn't noticed that.

Red Ryu

, would you be willing to explain the justification for the activity post in 864?

Oversoul town if role is legit

I am curious to know what my standing is now.

Hey Oversoul, answer me this.

Before the reveal of your "gambit", what reads did you have/gather?

Admittedly not much. I hadn't really put much thought into this game other than the reads that I felt while the gambit was still going on.

For posterity sake, that was town: Thor, Om, CTD, BatB. Scum: Nacho, and fuzzy for their actions regarding my wagon.

Wow. Considering you talked about Fuzzy, Om, Red, Cephrir in your wall there, you seem to have a lot of town/scum reads for your little "reaction test". You read a lot of people you never mentioned, and didn't read half the people you did mention. Dubya tee fuck?

I'm currently just waiting on a few things before I start to make waves.

Da fuq you waitin on?

Well, those reaction results sure were interesting. I might have to read them again for giggles.

Spoiler: Oops I read it again

Yeah. My comments kinda speak for themselves. Summary of Oversoul's play up to this point: I claimed, I lied for reactions, I didn't get anything good or sensible. His reads suck(and have little to do with his supposed "analysis"), he's done jack shit other than lie to us. Definitely scum.

Aaaaaaaaand Cephrir! Why do I think he's scum, you ask? Well, yer about to find out!

Spoiler: I bet you're tired of spoilers by now (Cephrir)

Wow, that's a ridiculously self-centered viewpoint. By that logic anyone who suspects you is scum.

Welcome to my scumlist.

Good point. It's not like I actually want to lynch Oversoul.

Unvote, Vote: BeautyAndTheBeast

So, Om walks his merry way onto your scumlist because of how they made their scumlist and three posts later you're sheeping their read? That's almost enough to call you scum right there.

Not to mention, guess what? Scum can piggyback on a townie's opinion because they know it's one that came from a townie and therefore a legitimate conclusion that someone could have reached! "He agrees with me"

You mean, like why I'm not giving all the reasons behind all my reads?

Oh shit, look at that.

I'm arguing with the part where you said Slandaar and AA9 are town for no other reason than agreeing with you, not because you refuse to give reasons. Though I can't say I'm especially a fan of that either.

I realize you didn't ask me but I for one would like to hear what Slandaar and AA9 have done that makes them such shining beacons of towniness that they don't even get (weak)'s. As far as I can tell, it looks like your list is based entirely on whether or not people agree with you.

It's largely based on whether or not people agree with me, yes. Because I am town. Ergo if you agree with me, you're likely town.

Slandaar's rather brief post including you and Fuzzy as scumreads and his strong stance against the massclaim make him town.
AA9's reaction to the Oversoul wagon makes her town.

"Largely based on" agreeing with you, plus:
Slaandar: A detailed description of what he agreed with you about. Great!
AA9: A reaction that I thought was scummy. Great!

@Nacho: I see what you're saying, but I'm not willing to rule it out entirely yet. I'm interested to hear his other information before we make such a decision, as it could make the role less pointless. If he does choose to reveal that there are multiple killing roles D1, though, it does potentially impact our lynch decision and therefore maybe isn't completely useless (for instance, "you aren't scumhunting" becomes a weaker argument).

Fencesitting on Oversoul (wants to hear his other information, without realizing that withholding that information is inherently anti-town), yet is certain that B&B is now scum (ironically for the same reasons he put Om on his scumlist before that shameless sheep).

I understand (albeit disagree) if you don't want to give all the reasons for your townreads, but you can't call someone 'confscum' without backing it up...

Are you chainsawing HD now, or are you trying to defend yourself limp-wristedly here?

I was stating a fact. Scumreads require reasons, because you need reasons to get anyone else to believe you, and the point of scumreads is to get them lynched. That's just how it works. Otherwise you're about as useful to the town as Glenn Beck would be.

Contextualized that for ya.

In other news I am apparently scummier than 'confscum'.

Inconsistency ho!
Firstly, leaving out the word mostly is not a strawman of any sort and saying so is pretty contrived, so you can kindly shut the fuck up.
Secondly, one post says your reads are largely based on whether people agree with you or not, but now only 2 are based on that concept.
Which is it?

1) If mostly, then your argument holds no water. Argument only stands if only/all, not mostly.
2) Follow the quotes. It was only

ever

about only two reads. Slandaar and AA9.

Really? You're already desperate enough to resort to semantics? You realize it's still not okay if all but one of your reads are based on agreeing with you, or actually if any of them are, right?

So your case against B&B now includes both "I don't like how you read your reads" AND "I don't like how you're responding to my clearly impeccable argument". My my.

Nero, please stop pretending to have a PR in a normal game.

Fuzzy: Why? That doesn't seem to jive with anything else you've said.

Clearly someone needs to meta fuzzy. Why does Nero's pretending to have a PR matter?

Aw, look, a bad reaction test that ignores the current game state and a player who is functionally playing as neutral as a neutron.

Now I have three people I'm willing to lynch.

I like the overconfident/hyperaggressive town mindset usually but this statement is just ridiculous. No one even knows if the game has started yet.

Vote: Thor

THIS is perpetuating RVS. He's voting someone

for trying to get us out of RVS

. "Wah! The game hasn't started yet! You can't start being serious! Wah!"

Scum.

He was suspicious of someone for confirming. You can't tell me that's not ridiculous.

Well, you were claiming you were ready to lynch someone because they posted "/confirm" and nothing else at a point when it wasn't clear whether we were even supposed to be posting anything else. If the game had started it wouldn't be AS ridiculous, though I'd still take issue with you being ready to lynch on page 3 barring a really obvious tell.

#tryinghardtolookliketownposting

Wow, what a shitty point. You could say that about anything that sounds like a townie post.

Beauty and roflcopter are both incredibly silly.

>Doesn't know what to say when two townies are fighting, but feels a need to say SOMETHING because "look I'm participating in meaningful discussion!"

Just my way of saying I thought the two of you were townvtowning...

How is that role supposed to be anything but useless? We'd find out that information after Night 1 anyway. Not to mention you just outed yourself as not having any useful abilities for no reason?

If you were intending to claim before CTD suggested a massclaim, why didn't you do it during pregame?

I've only skimmed the last couple pages but for now,

Vote: Oversoul

>Shameless wagon hop

Number 1

Yes I'm obviously scum for changing my vote, that makes sense. I also spent this post detailing why I was about to vote Oversoul, it's not like I didn't have reasons.

Reads after actually reading intervening pages: Amethyst Kitty, DLG, rofl, Beauty for town. Ryu confuses me, want to see more. Scum vibes from fuzzy but I also thought he was scum in Amnesiac Mafia and he wasn't, so... eh. I don't know how I feel about Thor- the questioning/deliberately obtuse playstyle is kind of annoying but Beauty seems to suggest this is not out of the ordinary.

If there are indeed multiple killers in the game, massclaim could lose us a lot of PRs quickly. But it might also result in said killers killing each other more. Conflicted. I do think mods generally account for the possibility, and there were, after all, a million reviewers.

This is a lot of words for an awful lot of nothing. Who does that? Oh yeah. Scum.

I listed some town reads and an opinion about massclaim (leaning no). And it's not even that many words.

Wow, that's a ridiculously self-centered viewpoint. By that logic anyone who suspects you is scum.

Welcome to my scumlist.

>Needed a reason to OMGUS.

Wow it turns out if you want to portray every action someone takes as scum, you *can*! It's not like your logic wasn't complete garbage, or like Om had just posted really good reasons to vote you as had I in my previous post....

Good point. It's not like I actually want to lynch Oversoul.

Unvote, Vote: BeautyAndTheBeast

>Shameless wagon hop

Number 2

This wasn't even a wagon yet.

If you're implying meta, Fenix is a Goon and thus probably not aware of it.

Possible scum slip that should be followed up on with investigative roles on Fenix if Cephrir flips scum.

What the actual fuck are you talking about? His user title is Goon, as opposed to Mafia Scum, so he is new and doesn't know about meta.

Guess I need to take another look at Nacho as I have him as null. Will do tomorrow.

>Preparing for shameless wagon hop

Number 3

Way to suspect me for something I hadn't even done yet, and I have no intention of voting Nacho, I just want to try to see what everyone else is seeing. No, don't worry, my vote was never going to leave you for quite a while.

That was one of the most retarded cases I have ever responded to. Reach harder.

Calling the case retarded is not a good method of debunking a case. Most of your rebuttals involve not seeing (or refusing to see) what B&B was talking about.

Oh, it's okay for you to withhold reasons for your town reads, but not me. Okay. That said I'll gladly provide reasons for all my reads up to this point fairly soon. The only thing your back-and-forth with Om established was that you're an idiot, and you managed to refute approximately nothing. Most of your other points consist mostly of "Nuh uh that wasn't what you were going to do" (a useless argument) and "You're trying to look town" (a teleological argument).

Gonna go back to ignoring you now.

I would love to see this. Also, when did you

start

ignoring Bulba? Why are you ignoring Bulba? Why were you ignoring Bulba before?

His suggestion to mass-claim seems genuine IMO and Nacho has done far more scummier stuff other then the mass-claim anyway

It's alignment neutral.

CTD did it in the recently finished invitational NY game as scum traitor. However, he did do much more in my opinion here to try and get mass claim to occur than in that game.

Are you following that thread in MD stating that Nacho's summary is a scumtell?

I can't help but read CTD as town for pushing the massclaim so hard.

The existence of the MD thread makes the summary scumtell stupid.

Pointing out useless posts is equally useless.

Cursory reread of Nacho has me liking him more than I did before, so I'd like to hear what's so very scummy about him.

CTD has already established his pushing massclaim is alignment null. Why are you now townreading him for it? I do find it nicely ironic that his reread of Nacho has him leaning town after B&B bit into his ass for his incoming bandwagon hop.

Holy semantic arguments, Batman! Om/Bulba argument devolved into arguments on arguments on arguments so fast I lost track of what they were even talking about. A lot of the last few pages has been useless bickering I didn't find particularly telling. Quick read list (no order within groups):

Town

CrashTextDummie

- See one of my last few posts, plus his most recent analysis is really good. Though I don't necessarily agree with dispensing with behavioral tells, not that he's doing so entirely, the analysis post strikes me as town because it takes strong stances on pretty much the whole player list and is well reasoned.

DLG

- Liked his first couple posts a lot, like the AA9 vote, obviously actually thinking (783), and 764 contains the only decent reason I've seen for suspecting Nacho (Nacho still seems like an opportunistic BW to me)

Slandaar

- 663 and 692 are well thought out, but I'm not terribly sure about this read. Wish he'd explain his opinions in more depth.

Om the Destroyer

- Don't really get why they're coming under fire. Could be whiteknighting me a bit I suppose but, well, if so it's working.

Nulltown

Nachomamma8

- haven't seen any actually convincing points against him, just a couple little nitpicks that I don't feel like merit more than an FoS.

Nero Cain

- As I recently explained. Also, as I mentioned early in the game I find hyperaggressive play to be protown (both in the sense that I think it benefits the town and in the sense that townies do it) and this extends to abrasiveness.

EddieFenix

- 691 reads as town, and I would expect a new player to have made more mistakes by now as scum.

Amethyst Kitty

- Posts seem genuine to me, though could stand to be less cautious. This is largely because 'you've posted a good amount and not much stuck out as scummy'. Nacho vote seems a little opportunistic because I'm just not getting that case. People have made a few okay isolated points but nothing that really felt voteworthy.

Null

Mac

- I dislike 481 and 547 but not enough to feel strongly about you.

Bacde

- I'd like to see reasons for his votes but I get the impression he actually does have said reasons.

Red Ryu

- I've wavered on this guy quite a bit. Null for now, might merit revisiting.

Nullscum

Bulbazak

- Before the great debacle because I felt like his initial points against Om were not very good. Posts during the great debate seem genuine but I also skimmed it once they started getting into semantics. For the most part I agreed with Om more.

fuzzybutternut

- Appears to be making a concerted effort to be as useless and sheepy as humanly possible. I may have read him poorly in Amnesiac Mafia but at least in that game he was actually trying.

Scum

Oversoul

- Reasons for this have been stated repeatedly by others and I agree with Nacho's stance on his claim.

BeautyAndTheBeast

- I don't think I need to explain this one.

ArcAngel9

- There's been some discussion about her behavior being within her town meta but I otherwise find her posts scummy, wrt Oversoul wagon mostly as she hasn't said much else: early posts are really alarmist for no good reason whereas she is oddly quiet about the speed of the Nacho wagon, 363 chainsaw of Oversoul, 682 mass chainsaw of Oversoul, finally comments on something else in her most recent post but "this lurker is rubbing me the wrong way" is a mile and a half short of scumhunting.

Post More

Thor665
Syryana - your opening reads suck.
Desperado
Baby Spice
Seanald
ActionDan
Rondar

This reads list is fascinating. His Om read sticks out in particular. Remember that time when he thought Om was scum? His reasoning for that was terrible: "I don't like how Om generates his reads". He makes a note of Om's white knighting, but continues to read him as town. Whoa, hold up. You thought he was scum for insanely retarded reasons, but now you think he's town

in spite of far more alarming things like white knighting

? His Oversoul scumread also is somewhat interesting as he cites reasons that others have already gone over. Could have at least mentioned

what

those reasons are.

I also found it amusing how he felt the need to point out my reads suck. Funny, considering he's in my scum pile and, more importantly, he's now put two (three if you count me) people on his scumlist because "making reads based off whether or not you agree with person X".

Okay, 996 basically answers my question, but feel free to elaborate if there's more.

I think this may be tough for you to see because my case is nacho-specific

if a different player was acting the way nacho is right now, maybe they could be town maybe

but not nacho

nacho is scum

Well, okay. I believe that you have reasons now, they just aren't reasons that can possibly convince me.

So what does that tell you about Bacde? Anything?

Things I learned on page 42: Bacde is town, AA9 is scum. I mean I already knew the second one but w/e

Why? What is the purpose of this post? Looks like filler to me.

Oversoul- I acted as though your info was true because even if you were scum, you would know whether there are (probably) multiple killing groups. I had you figured for an SK or a member of a less-than-6?-man-mafia. While I still believe you are scum, I'm more suspicious of both B&B and AA9. Now that I think in a comparative light, maybe Fuzzy and Ryu as well.

Wait, you figured OS was lying and scum and yet you are more interested in pushing B&B and AA9? And now you want to go after Fuzzy and Ryu too? Wat.

Posting a bunch of reads with detailed reasons is not scummy. It is, in fact, the opposite of scummy, unless the reasons are bad.

Could someone expand on this AA9 meta stuff? Or are we gonna do the hush hush I need this info to be secret for other games thing?

Want to see more from Baby Spice, Syry, Macslot, Fuzzy. A little suspicious of all of them.

And we're up to like 15 scumspects from Cephrir now.

Are you seriously suggesting this is a bus of Nacho before Nacho has even flipped? Not to mention that anyone would ever bus this hard? =/
The Nacho wagon does have a lot of townreads on it, and the RR wagon really has the opposite. That's the most important point in its favor for me, but I'm still not convinced. What I am convinced of is that most of the voters on that wagon believe what they're saying, and maybe that should be enough reason for me to get on it as an admittedly bad scumhunter, but it still isn't. That's just not how I vote.

I was going to vote fuzzy eventually, but if there's going to be another vote on him then the second makes enough to actually be pressure. I probably should have voted earlier, I suppose.

I like all the replacements thus far but their day-to-day play will potentially be more telling. I always think catch-up posts are town unless they have everything ass-backwards (see: Syry).

@Mollie: I was saying it seems like a playstyle issue.

Hey look, he's calling me shit again. Excellent. He also doesn't appear to understand what a bus is. Understandable, since he refuses to do it (see his Oversoul stance).

I'm down to be lynched tomorrow if you flip town though

If you are town, do you know how stupid this is? You're basically saying you're willing to put town down -4 if you're wrong. Where's the town motivation in that?

Interestinggggg.

What's interesting about it?

P-edit: Why wouldn't we Cephrir?

Because he's town and being wrong is not lynchworthy.

I feel like Nacho and Desperado are both stretching for some of their points. So far this doesn't feel as town v town to me as our other arguments have.

Why is Bacde town? He was in your null list, then you said he was town, but never said why. Why isn't DespvNacho townvtown?

@Bulba:

P-edit: Why wouldn't we Cephrir?

Because he's town and being wrong is not lynchworthy.

I feel like Nacho and Desperado are both stretching for some of their points. So far this doesn't feel as town v town to me as our other arguments have.

Why is Bacde town?

Also, if Nacho vs. Desperado is not town v. town, then what is it, and what are their respective alignments?

Huh. I thought I had already laid out my reasons for that read, but I guess I've never stated them clearly. Even though I don't agree with his main line of reasoning, it's plainly genuine, I don't think anyone will argue with that. I liked his interactions with AA9 particularly and find he often puts my thoughts in better words than I did when he's not talking about Nacho. In my experience the overall tone of his Nacho push doesn't come from scum and he's taken a few inconvenient positions (admitting Oversoul could actually be scum, for instance, which seems detrimental to his argument, could have agreed to lynch me for a free vote tomorrow and backed off, didn't take the easy route and suspect Hanzo, and now offering to be lynched, which is something I think we'd only see if he were honest or bussing, and this isn't a bus)

Obviously I feel like Nacho or Desperado is scum (probably not bussing), and I haven't figured out which one it is yet. What led me to say that now is 1509- the first point seems pretty good and makes me feel like Nacho is using a double standard, but the third point sucks and is a huge reach.

Why isn't it a bus? Also, if you're going to say Nacho and Desp isn't town v town, shouldn't you at least have some vague idea of which is which? This fencesitting is scummy as hell.

Whew. Alright. Ceph is scum too. TLDR for Ceph case: he's been flowing with other people's cases. He never attacks a target unless someone else has first. He makes statements and fencesits or dodges when asked for explanations. His reads are not fluid and make little sense. He admits he knew Oversoul was lying and believes him to be scum, but instead pushes other targets (e.g. B&B, AA9, others). According to his most recent posts, he also suspects pretty much everyone not on his town list.

TLDR: Pick one of Red, Ceph and Oversoul. Then click reply, click vote, and type the name you picked. Then submit.

[Syryana]

Syry's town <3

Happy to state as such

Nacho's most recent posting has caused me to rethink my scum read on him.

I'm happy on Ceph though

Mara, why do you think Ceph is scum? Looked at your ISO and you never said.

[Syryana]

Om misrep noted. It doesn't really change why you're scum, though.

@Cephrir:
Which of your scumreads have changed and why?
If there's a good chance OS is lying scum and you admit you think he's lying scum, what is it about B&B/AA9 that makes them scummier?

[Syryana]

Aaaaaand Cephrir comes back with 9/11 null tells! Let's hear it for fence sitting, everyone!

My case on you, in short:

Whew. Alright. Ceph is scum too. TLDR for Ceph case: he's been flowing with other people's cases. He never attacks a target unless someone else has first. He makes statements and fencesits or dodges when asked for explanations. His reads are not fluid and make little sense. He admits he knew Oversoul was lying and believes him to be scum, but instead pushes other targets (e.g. B&B, AA9, others). According to his most recent posts, he also suspects pretty much everyone not on his town list.

You responded to my last point. Your most recent post proves my fencesitting point and my "reads are not fluid" points.

Your upgrade of B&B to null due to mollie is eyebrow raising to say the least considering the amount of time you spent on them earlier in the game.

What has mollie done that you liked (general summary, not reading long quote walls, spoilers are there for a reason)?
What's the verdict on Desperado (when you get done with it)?
Why is RR's disappearance making him less of a subject of interest?

And, most importantly:
Why are you concentrating on two suspects when there are (bare minimum) 6 scum?

[Syryana]

WAIT WAIT WAIT

did OS claim that his informed townie fakeclaim was a "reaction test"?

Yes.

@Thor, I believe I had them as town. I'll go reISO them and let you know why.

[Syryana]

multiball?

The fuck does this mean?

Thor, I got about halfway through B&B ISO before my eyes glazed over. I'll get back to you tomorrow after sleeping and things.

[Syryana]

Cool, thanks KK.

As for the Oversoul thing, I've been wondering that for a while myself.

[Syryana]

Okay, now that AA9 has made a post I can definitely respect, I'll tell. The major difference I noted between her town and scum games was that she tends to play more thoughtfully as town, state more and better reads, and they usually go against the grain of the town. Which is exactly what I just saw. You can be town for a good long while. Whereas scum-AA9 doesn't have as many reads and they tend to not be as well thought out and/or to go with the flow.

Scum with AA9.

we only have a little over a week and the Nacho wagon took a while to build. Despite the cases being built on him, and despite people calling him out as scum, there are people who are quietly trying to oppose it

Ryu pinged for me earlier too Angel

VOTE: Nacho

I pretty vocally oppose it. Some of his recent posts make me start doubting myself though. Why are you so concerned about a deadline that's over a week away?

Nacho isn't playing to "out his reads" or "find scum" this game, he's manipulating people (and he can do it with one word even as shown w/ the pride post)

Something is off. Oversoul did a retarded "gambit", then was lazy and didn't follow the game, then posted a useless "analysis" post. Then immediately makes a soft-claim about the dangers of vigging him.

Your case on Nachomamma8 is decent. Maybe even lynch worthy. But if he's scum, then where is the scum-led counter-wagon on Oversoul, who has been far scummier?

Either Nachomamma8 is scum with Oversoul, or scum are pushing along the Nachomamma8 wagon to try to get Oversoul to live another day.

I really like this post. Which of your Nacho/OS scenarios do you think is more likely?

Although why isn't nacho voting OS anymore?

And why wasn't he explaining why to vote OS to me better?

Them being scum together would actually make sense

plus AA9 looked townier

Why does AA9 look townier?

All while I've been getting wagoned to hell, what has Desperado been doing? Responding to my case on him, not really pushing anything else. His activity is literally linked to mine; he waits for me to post, then he responds. Even the way he's been defending recently is scummy as fuck... all he's doing is trying to get the case on himself to go away by comparing parts of my case to other people. There are tiny little potshots everywhere else, nothing significant. I also like him so casually dismissing DLG's quadpost. He said that he didn't find anything interesting, but he could've easily followed up on the reads that DLG gave in those posts (which included him in his scum list), but instead he said nothing.

Slandaar is also chilling on my wagon scummy as fuck, potshot here, potshot there, empty reads list.

I'm thinking DLG is town because Desp is scummy as fuck and he just sort of lurked out in a really quiet way. He needs replacement like a motherfucker though and I find it sort of suspicious that CTD forgot to check up on his top suspect for over a week?

I agree with you on Desp. Slandaar not so much.

No, a townie who really hasn't put as much effort as he should into the game

Yeah, that bugs me. People who do fake claim gambits don't lose interest in games. There was only about 3 days between your informed townie claim and your reveal that it was a gambit. And you posted 37 times in the interim.

At what point did you lose interest in this game?

So. Much. This.

I'm clawing for reasons to unvote you and vote for desperado you know

I'd so much prefer it for both of us to be town and I want to believe

but you aren't helping me here

you feel like scum to me love

My definitely scum read is Desperado. Normally it would be baby spice, but I'm still sort of trying to sort her out. I don't think Red Ryu is scum, but I've been deceived by people going head-first at me for stupid reasons before. Slandaar, AK, Kublai, BS, fuzzy could be scum.

Why Kublai, AK, Slandaar?

I think that scum hopping onto my wagon in such an awkward way wouldn't immediately posture to hop off it again with a "I don't think you deserve something as insulting as a D1 lynch", and the reason for finding this game to be boring was actually decently thought out, calling for more cheekiness in the game... It rung right to me because yeah the game was exactly that way to me before I found Desp, and it makes sense that his activity would drop off after his Informed Townie claim didn't come to anything interesting and he doesn't really have any strong scumreads from the whole thing when it's all said and done.

Wait, you're willing to drop the whole Oversoul thing because of one genuine-sounding post? WHAT?

Yeah that was when I was highest energy was when you were more supportive

now you're off the wagon and I'm feeling insecure again

tbh I'm willing to lynch hanz, he hasn't been posting since that one debacle at all has he

its just that I feel like I have scum by the throat right now in nacho, and I don't want to give it up, and I don't understand why others aren't either

1) seeing what I'm seeing

or

2) Trying to show me why I'm wrong rather than take the bulbazak approach and say that I'm faking it and calling me scum

or

3) Trying to show me a better scum candidate

which actually you are doing mollie. You are doing number 3. Did I mention to you that you're a townread of mine?

Bacde, go read my #1540.

[Syryana]

So, I'm quite bothered by Nacho's change of heart from Oversoul. One "I don't care" post is enough to change a two week tunnel on the slot? Granted you seem to find Desp scummier at the moment (and I do agree with that scumread) but are you really changing your mind on OS due to the one post?

Bacde, why do you want to lynch Hanz (in the event you stop on Nacho)?

AK's wagon hop onto Nacho has me highly suspicious.

Might go back and look harder into/make a case on Desp later.

[Syryana]

Yeah but then she made the long reads post and everyone was like "wow AA9 so town" and I got caught up with the crowd

People that thought AA9's post was "good" or "townie": Bulbazak, Cephrir, AK, Slandaar

People who didn't: B&B, me, Thezemon

Hmm...

Slandaar, why do you think AA is town? You were in Tenements too; this is nothing like her town play was there.

Bacde. Let's assume for a moment that the Nacho slot doesn't exist. Who are your top three scumreads, and why?

B&B, what are your general thoughts on current events? (E.g. Bacde's sudden Nacho waffle, Nacho v. Desp)

[Syryana]

I'm rethinking a few reads too.

Used to have Bacde as nullscum just cause of how he was tunneling Nacho, but this latest thing is just, damn.

What reads you rethinking?

[Syryana]

Did you really?

[Syryana]

EBWOP: Did you really have me as scum?

[Syryana]

Well after that Sherlock 153 that's hardly surprising haha

[Syryana]

Who's in your "angryface stab it with fire nao" (aka scum) pile now?

Pedit: Nah, you just hammered the doc, I fortunately managed to talk my way out of getting lynched so I could use my ability and cap Rach, if we hadn't capped Rach we'd have lost

[Syryana]

People that thought AA9's post was "good" or "townie": Bulbazak, Cephrir, AK, Slandaar

People who didn't: B&B, me, Thezemon

I didn't think they were scummy, per say. I just thought they weren't good. It seemed to me like a more typical ArcAngel since she likes to OMGUS everybody.

That's the thing about it though, thez. It's NOT AA9's typical OMGUS. Last time I played with her (she was town, Tenements), any time anyone attacked her she'd immediately go nuts; case, vote, analysis on said person. Her entire play Day 1 consisted of OMGUS'ng the hell out of like four people. She then lurked for the rest of the game, until LyLo when she showed up with some off the cuff nonsense reads.

That wall she posted was completely different. The only part of it that was remotely close to OMGUS was her stance on me and even then she provides reasons I'm scum that

aren't

OMGUS, even though I directly attacked her.

Also note that in that large wall, she calls two people scum directly: DLG and myself. She hints that she thinks OS is scum and that Thez is scum, but doesn't directly say it. Yet, at the end of the wall, she votes... Red Ryu? She doesn't even

mention

Red Ryu in that post, except to call OS bad for defending him. She directly calls me the scummiest slot in the game and yet doesn't vote me. This is not coming from town AA9, folks.

@Slandaar: AA9 is town because of her massclaim stance? I might buy that if I wasn't getting such strong scum vibes from the rest of her play.

PLUS if we lynch nacho and we are wrong, I'm willing to be lynched tomorrow (this isn't pride, this is just me trying to convince the town that I'm not scum-motivated over here)

The part in parentheses is quite possibly the scummiest thing I've seen you say all game.

[Syryana]

EBWOP:

VOTE: AA9

Bbl.

[Syryana]

VOTE: Desperado

This should be our lynch for today.

Case to come.

[Syryana]

Moar votes on Desp!

BabySpice, stop making poetry and vote Desp.

Bacde, stop tunneling townies and vote Desp. That goes for the rest of you peeps on the Nacho wagon too.

Cephrir... eh, you do whatever you're doing, we'll lynch you tomorrow. Though if you want to be pro-town and bus your bud, we'd be all for that.

Thor, Slandaar, Disney hydra! Stop circle jerking and vote Desp!

[Syryana]

All of you still on the Nacho wagon should be ashamed of yourselves. Make up for it by voting Desp.

Elaborate on this post.

Also why you responded to these specific people?

They were the people whose names popped into my head at that specific time.

No elaboration required. Just unvote Nacho and vote Desp.

So basically your case on me is "META", right?
And anyone who played with me on MS can you tell that "Tenemants" is not a game that tells what kind of player I am. How about you check over few town games ( since i have plently lying around) and come back to me if you really feel that my play reperestns a scum play.

You have already made an obvious statment that I carry OMGUS reputation but this is something i can see that you would be doing it as scum, well which is what exactly you did in Tenemants where you were scum and also you did in another on-going game, and you were scum again(dead one). so tell me How is case is any different to the read you just stated about me?

Yet you are calling it as "First attack" and what I am doing to do is OMGUS? Can you ever get better, becuase this is pathetic reason to blame anyone. You said that i sucked as town in Tenemants. Well, then you haven't seen my actual town play. In case if you didn't notice, this is how it looks...

People really love breaking that ongoing rule...

Just because I'm feeling nice today, I will explain to you what my take on meta is. I'm not one of those people who will trawl through dozens of games to figure out what people may or may not do as a given alignment. My "meta" as it were revolves around actually

playing

with people. My experiences with them make up my opinion of their playstyle.

That being said, my experiences thus far have shown that: you are a lurker, you love to OMGUS people, your deductive reasoning leaves worlds to be desired and you put in no particular effort into a game until someone shoves a large burning rod up your ass. Three of these qualities are present in this game. One is not. It is the plain and simple fact that you are putting so much effort into "reads" and "cases" together (they still suck, but A+ for effort) that makes me think you're scum. There are also plenty of other scum-motivated things in your ISO, but I'm not bothering to get into that because I'm not interested in seeing a lynch on you today anymore.

In the timeless words of a great and revered man: "Blow it out your ass."

Peditx4: A bolded word?! Are we fucking serious here?!?!? No, just no. And #1993 is opportunistic as fuck.

[Syryana]

You're not helping the problem, mastin!

<<< I'm not?!?
Sadface.

>>>

[Syryana]

I thought Ceph was being sarcastic.

[Syryana]

Ceph post feels more obviously sarcastic, Thez looks more opportunistic (wasn't getting sarcasm from that one). At least it does to me.

[Syryana]

I think the argument he tried to start with you about CTD and DLG was bad and not related to the original point (as you said, strawman), and has actually become an Argument from Repetition. That said, the biggest thing against him is his claim that you are suffering from confirmation bias, as that betrays a town read or knowledge. Given his more recent posts, we can rule out a spontaneous town read, which makes this a scum slip. I'm trying to organize my various scum reads at the moment in order to decide what to do (My Bacde vote is not cutting it.), but he's definitely moved out of my null/scum pile.

I see all these buzzwords (Argument from Repetition, confirmation bias, strawman) but I've no idea what point you're trying to make.

Do you think he's scum, yes or no? We can get into the whys and wherefores after you organize your thoughts.

[Syryana]

You said he moved out of the pile. You didn't say which pile he moved into. Thanks for clarification.

[Syryana]

Syry, I'm putting you in my town pile. I like how you play.

How does "like my playstyle" = "you're town"? Like, wut.

Good point. I've got 2 town, 2 scum and 4 question marks on Nacho, and myself, 3 townreads and 1 question mark on Desp.

Care to put names to them faces, Ceph?

[Syryana]

If I was doing a points system, I would give Thez -100 for that. That backpedal

reeked

.

Also <3 Bacde

You should start convincing people to stay on the Nacho wagon

That way Desp gets lynched

[Syryana]

Syry's town <3

Happy to state as such

Nacho's most recent posting has caused me to rethink my scum read on him.

I'm happy on Ceph though

we only have a little over a week and the Nacho wagon took a while to build. Despite the cases being built on him, and despite people calling him out as scum, there are people who are quietly trying to oppose it

Ryu pinged for me earlier too Angel

VOTE: Nacho

That's why. You were rethinking your read, then jumped back on the wagon due to "time constraints". This is flat out weird, particularly in light of the fact that there's a plurality lynch rule in effect. Granted this was Mara talking, but it still felt fake to me.

[Syryana]

Mollie, Syrlacious requests is requesting you vote Desp

Then his love is all yours

[Syryana]

Well shit I butchered that:

*Syrlacious requests that you vote Desp

[Syryana]

do you really think bulb boy is town? I can't tell if his sycophancy is a personality thing or not I don't know him. I have been leaving him alone cos majiffy town reads him I am not wanting to work with him lol, he annoys the daylights out of me but I don't want to completely ignore him if there is something there

Bulb is one of the people I'm having wishy washy issues with. One minute I think he's scum, then he's town, then back again. I've only completed one game with him so I'm not sure how to read him yet.

I remember thinking that the whole HD vs. Bulb wall thing was town v townish.

Meh, I don't like being wishy washy. This requires ISO. I'll get back to you.

[Syryana]

hey guys lets unvote nacho and lynch desp plz

ok thanks

Where's this Desperado push coming from?

I asked him to, Bulb.

[Syryana]

Bulb is one of the people I'm having wishy washy issues with. One minute I think he's scum, then he's town, then back again. I've only completed one game with him so I'm not sure how to read him yet.

I remember thinking that the whole HD vs. Bulb wall thing was town v townish.

Meh, I don't like being wishy washy. This requires ISO. I'll get back to you.

Actually mollie, never mind, he's gonna be null for a while

I tried reading his ISO and my brain exploded

Just make a town block with someone else

[Syryana]

Well, you sorta have a point, but you do realize you're the only one voting Bacde right now yes? Put your vote somewhere more useful. Like on Desp!

[Syryana]

syrlacious who is in your town pile right now

Nacho, you, KK, Nero, Slandaar, probably Peregrine (had a townread on DLG).

Leaning town on people like Om, AK. Can't decide what to do with Thor, Bacde, Bulb.

[Syryana]

I think you're one crazy tomato

But that's not particularly alignment indicative

[Syryana]

you, bacde,

thor

, syryana, bulba, Om/HD,

eddiefenix

, arc, CTD,

thez

is the strong town pile. cephrir probably belongs in there, but I'm a little hesitant.
seanald is a decent townread for latching onto bacde in the way he did, red ryu i would call town but he's been hard to talk to lately, nero is probably town, but hesitant.

I must query you as to why the bolded are in your town pile

Particularly thez

[Syryana]

If you want mastin, I can post a few things to get you to the top of the page

<<< Only if you desire. There's no real need, given as how I'm lurking around for a bit. >>>

[Syryana]

Do we seriously have seven people on 1 man wagons? The fuck is going on here?

[Syryana]

I'm convinced.

VOTE: Baby Spice

[Syryana]

Hello Seanald. Who are your scumreads and brief reasoning why?

PS: I'll answer you if you answer me

[Syryana]

Spoiler: 2197

I don't know why the fuck it matters who he votes before he says he's bussing everyone, but the fact that she latches onto THIS and ignores bacde making the bussing claim as town is complete and fucking bullshit. She'd notice in the other game that Bacde didn't go on a gigantic bussing spree and push his partners like he's pushing me here
then i found bacde making the bussing joke in another game
does she pay attention to it?
nope

Hello Liar.

I'm making the assumption here that "other game" is State Farm Mafia, that you linked below. What in the above paragraph is a lie?

11. Zdenek (Xegarus) - Mafia Goon - Lynched Day 2

<snip

6. Bacde - Mafia Goon - Lynched Day 3

Vote: Xegarus

What the scum is bus'ing already? Lemme help.

VOTE: Xegarus

-DGB

might as well bus my whole team

Vote: Zoidberg

Where in here does it say he is bussing everyone? Exactly what little bit of hidden text?
He doesn't, so Nacho Lie #1.

Um, it looks to me like he says "might as well bus my whole team" not a half dozen lines above this

Zoidberg wasn't scum?

As I pointed out at the time, he wasn't voting Zoiderg, so your very question becomes lie #2

He voted Zoidberg-town when he made the joke

Your quoted text in #2170 does not aply, as it is not Bacde making a bussing joke. So to claim it does apply, and that it is a bussing joke become lies #3, and #4.

Him claiming his partners is in a pool of four people isn't a bus?

I strongly suspect that you do know exactly why it matters who Bacde was voting before he made that bussing joke, as it is a central point to my entire arguement, something that I believe abundantly clear. So that becomes lie #6

Where'd lie number 5 go? And how does you suspecting something to be true make Nacho a liar?

Oh, perpetual catch-up huh. Lie #7. Especially funny as you had to back 1,400 posts to find it.

I believe the point Nacho was trying to make is that you claimed you hadn't yet caught up to the game as of that post (after posting three more "I'm catching up" posts prior and even more after) and nothing you've said since has indicated you ever did.

Potshot when I'm gone for literally two days.

Hmm, looks. Posted Thursday #841, me post #1128 that he had been seen, Nacho posted #1130 on Sunday. Thursday to Sunday is literally two days how? Ignoring timezones, 65 hours is not literally two days. Lie #8

Okay, 65 =/= 48. So?

Last we hear of the mystical ISO read.

<Cough> #2160 </cough>

Nacho lie #9

But you were ISO'ing Nacho looking for things about Bacde? And you found nothing relevant?

she doesn't bring it up the next day so she could get my partner more easily?

Do I really need to point out that it is still fucking Day one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nacho lie#10

Umm.... Grammatically garbled sentences do not lies make.

Wow for one post Nacho, you really told a lot of lies. Lies that are so easy to proove wrong by doing something as stupidly simple as quoting.

But in simple terms, the key elements.

Bacde joked about bussing a scum buddy while bussing a scum buddy.

He joked about it when moving his vote to a townie

Nacho claimed that Bacde wasn't voting a scum buddy at the time. He was.
Nacho claimed that Bacde was bussing everybody. He wasn't.
Nacho claims that it doesn't matter who Bacde was voting at the time. Clearly it does.
Nacho claimed that Bacde had made a bussing joke as town. He didn't.

One thing that I have raised and Nacho has told four different lies about it.
Four.

Bacde joked about bussing in this game while voting Nacho, and had a case/voting history that supports a theory of Bacde bussing in this game.

That Nacho also lied about so many other things in that one post is just amazing.

Dammit. Tried to post this on the computer, got ninja'd without me noticing as I ran off to take one of the kids to his McJob. Realized that I had made a mistake so posted a correction from my phone. Came home to find this post still sitting here. Bah

That post was bunkum. Nacho's "lies" were either nothing of the sort or nitpicky little silly things that have nothing to do with his argument against you. You are more interested in making Nacho out to be a liar than responding to his points against you (all of which you completely ignored). The whole post was a chainsaw.

More votes on BabySpice.

Pedit: Slandaar, I know you really want a Thor lynch, but I don't see it happening today. Get out of the tunnel vote BabySpice. I promise I will cheerfully and thoroughly read your argument against him tomorrow.

[Syryana]

I totally forgot to do this earlier.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Desperado

I wanna hear from the penguin.

[Syryana]

Still waiting on that case you said you had coming.

I'll get there eventually. I'm actually more interested in penguin than you right now.

Speaking of which, you absolutely come off worst with the Baby Spice fiasco. You were convinced that penguin's slot was scum in #2197, Seanald asks you why/by what in #2999, you blatantly deflect the question here:

Hello Seanald. Who are your scumreads and brief reasoning why?

PS: I'll answer you if you answer me

And then are saved from ever having to address it by a) seanald not first answering your asinine question, and b) Baby Spice replacing out. So what convinced you that Spice was scum?

Ooh, I like it when people use words like asinine. As for why BabySpice, perhaps you should read my posts?

[Syryana]

Le't do this.

VOTE: Oversoul

[Syryana]

Le't do this.

VOTE: Oversoul

Nothing to say about one of your major suspects starting and coalescing a wagon on one of your other major suspects?

Seems like something a townie would point out as he hopped from one to the other.

I'm happy to see a wagon going on one of my half dozen scum reads. I frankly don't give a damn who started it.

[Syryana]

Oh, and Bulb can't link it; it's an ongoing. At least if it's the game I'm thinking of.

[Syryana]

Move on.

[Syryana]

Seanald, I'm disappointed. I expected a derphammer.

[Syryana]

Goddammit Nacho, you get me every time.

Spoiler: <<< A very late mod-edited-votecount >>>

Oversoul - 10 (Desperado, penguin_alien, Kublai Khan, Syryana, Nachomamma8, Cephrir, BeautyAndTheBeast, Bulbazak, thezmon221, Haylen)

Desperado - 3 (ArcAngel9, Thor665, Amethyst Kitty)

Nachomamma8 - 4 (Seanald, CrashTextDummie, Bacde, Nero Cain)
Haylen - 1 (Oversoul)
penguin_alien - 2 (Red Ryu, Om the Destroyer)
Thor665 - 1 (Slandaar)

Not Voting - 3 (ThAdmiral, EddieFenix, PeregrineV)

With

24

alive, it took

13

to lynch.
Oversoul was at L-3!

[Syryana]

Ain't no kinda about it, Nero.

[Syryana]

WTF?

are we seriously Lynching OS? that dude is town as fuck.

tomorrow, we get scum.

~Mara

thats generally the objective, sorry but this post came off as fake as mollie's tits. ohhhhh woulda been a good burn but I don't think the end of that statement is true.

I find it mildly terrifying when I come into the thread, read something, go "damn, I completely agree with this", look at the author, and find it's Seanald.

Also, @the Mollie/Jiffy/Nero/Rena/whoever catfight going on up there, you lot need to stop it and vote Oversoul. You're all town, and you all need to deal with it.

[Syryana]

PAGE SNIPE MWUAHAHAHAHAHHAHA

[Syryana]

No. I wouldn't mind a CTD wagon though.

[Syryana]

What's thez done to draw your ire, Slaand?

[Syryana]

So, cliff notes:
The inlaws fighting stopped
AK wants to move the OS wagon to Eddie
Slaand still wants to lynch Thor
OS has upped his number of useless claims to 2

Did I miss anything?

[Syryana]

Can we stop making gog damn counter wagons to the 2-3 people have a mass amount of votes on, this is what causes a no lynch.

idgaf about the eddie case right now because he's not Nacho, Desp, or OS.

We need 13 within 2 days, so stop with the bullshit counter wagons and go with something that is actually viable. /drunk

Not trying to be a dick but we need to actually get a lynch and not waster 108 pages and not even lynch.

There is a plurality rule

Your attempts to appear town are fooling no one

[Syryana]

I think I need to just vote the biggest wagon at this stage the town just needs a lynch.

I'm tired of words

Let's see some actions