Newbie 1391 - Game Over - FINALLY!!!

[Miss Stranger]

VOTE: Gen_Wolf. Sounds like a criminal pseudonym to me.

[Miss Stranger]

Provokative wagon, or a quick plan in the pregame scumchannel?

UNVOTE: Gen_Wolf.

[Miss Stranger]

I can't edit posts? Damn, didn't know that. -_-

VOTE: Antagon

No editing. Editing would allow you to correct scumslips and whatnot.

-Vel

[Miss Stranger]

I found Antagon suspicious because he prompted a wagon on a person who hasn't yet showed up. Hence, I voted Antagon. I think that is more suspicious than Gen_Wolf's nickname.

Oh, look, someone ninja'd me. -_-

[Miss Stranger]

I don't see how changing votes in RVS is scummy in any way. Ignoring my obvious joke vote on Gen_Wolf, I simply voted Antagon for starting a wagon on someone who's afk. I don't see how a wagon on an afk person would make them less afk. Game's just started. Sheesh.

And yes, I simply forgot to add my VOTE: tag in my previous post. I thought I could edit instead of doublepost, but apparently I can't. Apologies, rookie mistake. But tell me, Gen_Wolf, what could I possibly hide in my single, straightforward sentence that I would want to edit away? Just asking for your opinion as to why you think is scummy.

Feel It, same question to you. What's exactly wrong with changing an obvious joke vote, during RVS at that, that would make YOU switch vote?

[Miss Stranger]

Oh well. I'm less afk than James and I have a wagon. I hope that allows valuable information to be drawn.

[Miss Stranger]

I've played a fantasy themed forum mafia before, although it was quite a bit different (72h days, instant nights, the evils could meet and talk in their 'haunted inn' during the day). Was fuuuunnn... Oh, and I'm a somewhat regular at EpicMafia.com buuut I don't think that counts, just so vastly different. I read a little around the other Newbie games going on and some wiki theory, to get a general idea of what to expect.

In either case, IMO accusing of "changing" a joke vote (and then isntantly doing the same yourself) is just looking for phantom clues.

[Miss Stranger]

UNVOTE: Antagon.

Vote is on hold until we get some input from other players. My current analysis:
Fegelein: leaning town
Feel It: null
Gen_Wolf: scummy
Antagon: null

[Miss Stranger]

So, a quick summary from my point of view... Bolding names for readability and clarity, these aren't votes, just saying!

Gen_Wolf

goes all "I wasn't serious" about lynching me (31),

Feel It

is not satisfied and votes him (46), based on past games meta. Not sure if

Gen_Wolf

could be scum trying to get an easy lynch off me and failing, or

Feel It

wants to earn my trust and take advantage of

Gen_Wolf

's scumminess. For now I'm about 40-50% certain at least one of them is scum.

On a different stage,

Generic

arrives in town and presents a pretext for not voting ("my vote can lynch someone, and I withhold my opinion" - 30),

Nachomamma8

finds that scummy and a strictly personal friction between them ensues (32).

Fegelein

and

Antagon

making passive remarks on

Nachomamma8

's playstyle, but otherwise lying low. Very difficult to get a read on either of those, I'm just slightly uncomfortable with

Generic

's forced passiveness.

No word from

champinoman

at this point besides the random vote,

James May

hasn't showed up yet at all.

[Miss Stranger]

Vote: Miss Stranger

Editing posts, something to hide in RVS stage already??

Obviously I had nothing to hide. Phantom clue.

Why bother with day 1. Lets just lynch Miss Stranger now and go from there? We are already onto our first scum.

Based on what?

She's fine at L-2.

Antagon is probably Town.

It shows a concern about appearances, which I've personally done in my first Newbie game as Town, but the editing post remark really took it to a new level.

I'd like to think actual analysis and reasoning is better than "omg obvious scumslip lynch right now". Then again he might just be trying to earn town credit. It's too early to say, which is why I said "leaning".

[Miss Stranger]

Spoiler: champinoman

Why bother with day 1. Lets just lynch Miss Stranger now and go from there? We are already onto our first scum.

I thoroughly enjoyed this post because it clearly articulated what I was thinking when I read the exchange between Feel It and Fegelein and was laced with the amount of sarcasm it deserved. And it lead into some interesting responses from Feel It:

Lynching anybody this early would be silly, we need to poke and prod and talk and get reactions, see who seems scummiest before making a decision. Not sure if I should give you benefit of the doubt due to your newness or change my vote now tbh.

VOTE: UNVOTE
I suppose you're right. While your behavior and reaction was odd, it's not as alarming as Gene_Wolf suggesting to lynch you already.

Opportunistic much?

Defending someone who already looks scummy by attacking the attacker. Highlighted as extremely scum in the wiki theory, but I'm totally unsure if I'm supposed to follow that theory word for word. Dully noted. It's also worth to note however that I also find

Feel It

oportunistic, but so was

Gen_Wolf

's suggestion on me. Hence why I think one of them is evil.

Moving on,

Allowing wagons to form in RVS is a good method to get the game running. We can gauge reactions from James May.

What's your current read on James May then now that the wagon has dissipated?

Not sure if sarcastic or merely pointing out what I pointed long time ago.

James

is simply not participating, so the wagon is useless. Given there were people with RVS votes on them, most notably me, who also showed early activity, a wagon on one of us would have been better - unless

Antagon

was attempting to provoke him into play. I'm probably overanalysing it. That said, I'm also not happy with

James

's absence because I can't tell for sure if there's two mafia amongst the 7 active or just one (if

James

is mafia).

Best I don't RVS vote anyone because I saw quite a few votes on specific people and my vote could push them too close up the hammer. For the sake of a joke vote just not worth it.

So you wanted to put a

random

vote

specifically

on someone who already had votes on them? Riiiight.

The next exchange can easily be described as Nachomamma firing wild bullets in the direction of Generic hoping one hits. Looks like they all missed to me.

It is uncomfortable however that

Nachomamma8

simply tossed a brief comment on my defence and then focused on exclusively on

Generic

.

Why are these reads important enough for your follow up question considering you have ignored the following read on yourself made a lot earlier?

Antagon

is not the only one here with selective reading.

Spoiler: Feel It

Yeah, I changed my vote later because I didn't realize at the time he is an SE. I find it interesting that you described myself as opportunistic when I've put pressure and ask questions of suspicious behavior, I'm hardly trying to force a lynch already like Gen_Wolf suggested.

Or you waited a little bit to see which one of us is the easier lynch. Or you were off to reread past games. Or something else out of million possible reasons. Guess I'll never know for sure, but I'll put my thoughts here.

The exchange between Generic and Nachomamma8 revealed that Generic is cautious and Nacho is fairly aggressive. Neither of them gave much away that I could notice.

Except the fact they were exclusively focused on each other, which isn't the case for

Generic

anymore.

I think Miss Stranger is leaning town. No I'm not trying to get you to lynch Gen_Wolf he just gets my vote because he seems the most suspicious (which at this point isn't much)

So you basically repeated what I said from your view point. Like me saying, "You say I am town. You say Gen_Wolf is scum. I think it's suspicious." and you saying "Yes, you are town. Yes, Gen_Wolf is scum. No, it's not suspicious."

Antagon is active lurking, asking about people questions without contributing much himself. Fegelein has done the same but is a bit more involved.

I've not seen broad and argumented analysis from neither of those, nor

Nachomamma8

. I'm waiting for it before I express a stronger opinion.

Spoiler: Gen_Wolf

I never said I was worried with how people perceive me? I explained why I did it. Why you putting words in my mouth?

Are you a Generic alt?

No sorry, I saw Gen and assumed it was Gen. Wolf. Didn't realise there was another Gen in terms of Generic playing.

Several other people drawed attention to this line as a "scared mafia" scumslip. I'm not sure how much I'm supposed to dig into such alleged slips. People gave my desire to edit/append posts way more speculation than it deserved. For the record, my previous game allowed that in some limitations for simple edits to avoid doubleposting. For reference:

Tips
(Day 2) As much as posssible, avoid additionals/edits in your post.

Here are some tips:

When you post separately within less than 60 seconds after your last post, the Post Addition line will appear.
When you edit your original post within less than 10 minutes after posting it or , the Edit by line will appear.


To avoid those things above:

0 to 59 seconds. Do not post separate comments. Instead, edit your post, but not in advance mode.
60 seconds to 9 minutes and 59 seconds.
(1) Edit your post for minor edits and modifications. You explain a little bit of your minor edit (if necessary). But avoid the word "Edit: ...".
(2) Post a new comment for major edits and modifications, or if you want to add something completely unrelated to your last post.
10 minutes or longer. Post a new comment all the way even if it is double posting.

VOTE: Gen_Wolf

I'm not satisfied with his explanation that he wasn't serious, it was an odd and anti-town comment. I looked at some of his other games and I didn't seem him act like that.

If you are not satisfied with the explanation then that means if I hadn't done that RVS would have been longer, would you have liked RVS to be longer? Plus you have given quite a nice reaction to a reaction test.

Define nice. And what was the reaction test? Was I supposed to look like a panicked scum if I were scum, or was the scum supposed to take your words literally that you actually want to lynch me before half the players have posted, and use them to make you look scummy, which is what

Feel It

did?

Lots of activity to wake up to was very nice.

Why bother with day 1. Lets just lynch Miss Stranger now and go from there? We are already onto our first scum.

I thoroughly enjoyed this post because it clearly articulated what I was thinking when I read the exchange between Feel It and Fegelein and was laced with the amount of sarcasm it deserved. And it lead into some interesting responses from Feel It:

Thank you, finally someone appreciating my post. I have to agree, from the reactions it got I would have to place Feel It as my top scum candidate. This based on his extreme focus on this one post which clearly has been shown as a joke and secondly from his pure lack of involvment in other areas of the game. Almost as if he is avoiding the game because he has something to hide.

Feel It

is scummy to me at this point, but you are the scummier. For me, it's more or less either/or between the two of you right now. You are claiming you said I'm definitely confirmed scum to see if someone would catch up on that and turn you into an easy lynch for saying it. It seems

Feel It

did, but wasn't the only one. If that's what your test intended, it wasn't very good.

Yeah, I changed my vote later because I didn't realize at the time he is an SE. I find it interesting that you described myself as opportunistic when I've put pressure and ask questions of suspicious behavior, I'm hardly trying to force a lynch already like Gen_Wolf suggested.

(snip)

I think Miss Stranger is leaning town. No I'm not trying to get you to lynch Gen_Wolf he just gets my vote because he seems the most suspicious (which at this point isn't much)

(snip)

Why does being an SE change the fact about the post Feel It? How does that change the game so much that now it is necessary to subject me to your vote?

Miss Stranger has said that one of the two of us are scum, in her opinion and after that post you have now gone and buddied up to her? Hmmm scum much?

As I already said, he is either an oportunistic scum who defends me and tries to feed my suspicions on you, given I'm already hostile, or he simply finds you scummy like most other people, but is the most lynch happy. In the former case, if you get lynched and flip town,

Feel It

will rise significantly higher on my scum meter. In the latter case, you will simply confirm several people's suspicions.

Spoiler: Generic

@missstranger, I wouldn't call it forced passiveness, although I can see why. It's restrained passiveness because I'm aware this is a newbie game and my usual openings in games are more aggressive and antagonistic, because I want emotive responses from people because to me they are the most honest responses.

Okay. Sounds acceptable.

Of those who have posted so far, heres my opening feelings...

Fegelein – Nice opening RVS vote. Makes a point of saying miss stranger has been put at L-2 (she hasn’t, gen wolf didn’t unvote first) and says antagon is probably town. I think he is by his posts up to that point, but no explanation to the thought process is no use to anyone. Tries to theorise on the post editing that its concern on appearance, although nobody seems concerned with maybe quizzing her on WHAT was edited. If its something they already know because they saw, use it to explain how she is concerning with appearance. Doesnt press gen wolfs loose and scummy looking comment, just shoots it down with a ‘no’ and moves on. That in itself sits badly for me. Tries to justify the wagon on fegelein, seemingly unconcerned that miss stranger is believed to be at L-2. A jab at nachomamma, with a follow up on what he was meaning (feels like a bit of a prodding pressure play, but could be just to put the seeds of doubt into peoples minds about him).
So far sits in the middle because he seems to not dwell on anything or expand on things unless pressed. Is jabbing at opponents rather than seeking a sound blow. For now he is on the fence for me and i want to see more from him in the analysis.

Opening RVS vote is simply a vote and means nothing by itself. I was at L-2 with 3 people voting on me (

champinoman

,

Feel It

,

Gen_Wolf

). Other than that, it sounds about right.

Miss stranger – nice opening RVS vote. Picks up on antagons RVS vote and questions it a little, unvoting her own choice for the time being (possibly readying an early pressure vote is antagon responds badly?). Must be very new to online mafia if she isn’t aware of the no editing rule that every site i have seen mafia on enforces. Wasnt actually waiting for antagon to respond it seems as she puts down a pressure vote on him (decidedly un RVS voting). Justifies her vote ton antagon, and acknowledges the ninja’ing but not the posts content that ninja’d her.

Actually he responded in the ninja post, as did

Fegelein

later on. My concerns were rooted in the fact the wagon was on an inactive person, something I said in post 22.

Explains her editing well and defends the spurious push against her for changing votes. #22 is a good post against very flawed logic for her votes. Admits to having some experience which makes me concenred she isn’t aware of the strict no editing rules of mafia.

Addressed the issue already. I honestly wasn't aware. My experience is down to playing 1 game as a late replacement (lost as "paladin"/"town doctor", although if the rest of the town followed my guidelines before I died it would have been won), 1 as scum (lost) and 1 early mod abandoned game. I could link to them, although that would take the mistique away from "Miss Stranger" and be very bad for my image :3

And is hung up on being accused of too much vote hopping, mafia do tend to get hung up on appearance in game but this could also because she thinks she is at L-2 still and is panicking.

Hung up? Yay, I have a life and need shopping and food. Surprise! Accusation of hopping is pretty faux reasoning to begin with. I didn't "hop", I started with a joke vote, then a semi-serious, but mostly serious vote, after which I unvoted to get more reads. Changing a joke vote (on a literally random name) is in no way hopping, and calling out on it is scummy. Had I had an actual motivation to vote

Antagon

outright, I wouldn't have voted

Gen_Wolf

to begin with, seeing how

Antagon

wasn't pushing on me at all.

Her early reads on people seem ok, although im not actually sure at that stage what fegelein has done beyond being behind her vote so is this trying to be nice to someone she fears could push on her later?

Fegelin

appeared more town not because he defended me (he didn't), but rather because he chose not to attack me on false basis (hopping vote which didn't happen and scumslip nobody could point out). Rather, he lazily stiffled

Gen_Wolf

's wagon on me, but didn't make oportunistic moves like

Feel It

did. Keep in mind this was an early observation and could be changed at any point depending on his future posts. Still waiting a longer text from him.

Follows up with a quick summary of people with reasons, which is much better, but this really needs separating out to individual opinions of the people in my view. In answering fegelein it seemed genuine but also felt like fence sitting.

Will be done as soon as I have information and time.

Feels very n00b in most of what she has done, but i wonder if gen wolf and her are in the process of bussing in some places, although for now she gets a spot on the fence while i figure out how new she really is.

Thanks I guess? -_- I already told you how new I am. I hope that helps. Not sure if I should take the bussing point seriously. If I get lynched and flip scum it won't make

Gen_Wolf

look much better, but would make him a very strong suspect for bussing (like he psychically knew I was scum based on a nonexistent slip). On the other hand, if

Gen_Wolf

gets lynched and turns scum, nothing about me would really change for the positive at all. It would be a pointless bus that only does harm to a hypothetical scum team between me and him.

Feel it – scummy opening (only kidding, again nice opening RVS vote). Responds to the RVS vote on him although seems to be running with it in a light hearted way. Doesnt unvote when he votes miss stranger so unsure if he is playing that vote tactically or hasn’t realised the general voting etiquette. Joins in on the early pressure on miss stranger for her post editing error, and this seems to be the basis for being happy to see someone at L-2 (which she isn’t) on page 1.

Which I was on page 1. His accusation of "vote hopping" instantly brought scum feelings because one doesn't hop from a meaningless vote.

Claims the push was not major, she miss stranger just scum slipped first. Moves on to gen wolfs bigger scum slip but doesn’t vote gor gen wolf, instead deliberates whether to give him the benfit of the doubt or not. Unvotes miss stranger based on her defence, seems legitimate too given his suspicions growing on gen wolf. Good throw down of the gen wolf vote, liking this because it comes at a time when gen wolf has been reactionary and contradictory of everything he is trying to defend. Feel it then goes into a bit more analysis of the few players who have only just started posting.

He thinks

Gen_Wolf

is scummy, but completely changes his mind about me based on my defence. Either I'm very convincing, or he's trying to gain my trust and direct my vote towards

Gen_Wolf

.

Im getting more town vibes than scum vibes from him at this point, and not knowing who has what experience here i am leabing towards not being the strongest analyser of games.

Do you get town vibes because you both find the same person scummy? What scum vibes do you get?

Gen wolf – nice, if crude, opening RVS vote. Jumps on miss stranger for her editing error. Even in a newbie game the idea that her editing in that post was to hide a scum slip is a reach, so the justification for this vote feels forced.

And yet you were one of the people who were alarmed that I was unaware I can't edit posts, and that I could possibly hide something I wanted to edit away. You find it forced, but you find me alarming. This contradiction feels uncomfortable.

Bizarre comment to say ‘lets just lynch her and be done with the day’. We have begun to leave RVS well before here, so this comment is loose and not a good sign for gen wolf’s mindset. Now the posting begins to open up as he goes on the attacking defensive, reacting to everybodies comments. Claims he doesn’t like RVS yet antagon tried to drag us out of it very early and long before his comment about wanting a quick lynch and yet returns to that point saying it was a joke. That suggests he doesn’t like RVS yet tried to put us back in it again after we were leaving it.

Push it back in how?

This isn’t looking good right now. The excuse he gives to feel it is AWFUL, now claiming he did it for reaction testing, to END RVS (?) and then pats himself on the back for being the one who ended RVS.... post #31 is damning gen wolf. Jumps in when he thinks nachomamma is talking to him, very jumpy on everything at this point. Moves on to trying to turn the whole thing back on the person by comments such as them wanting to continue RVS and their reaction to the ‘reaction test’. Leaps on the first bit of praise like its water in the desert.
A strong scum read from him right now. There are leads that will come from whether im right on him, but for now he stands out way more than others.

Yes, he's scummy. What do you think it would happen if he flips scum, and what if he flips town?

Antagon – interesting vote to open with, especially the reason. I can see it remains harmless as its only a 2nd vote on someone, and although not random is in the spirit of RVS in potentially being jovial (we shall see). Responds he was trying to end RVS, a nice point about RVS being a smokescreen for scum slips so justification for wanting a quick end. Runs with the analysis of sorts from miss stranger and asks two open but still relevant questions.
Leaning town, although would like more from him because he started well but is not pushing heavy analysis yet.

I need a deeper post from him before I can comment. Null.

Nachomamma – good opening on his read of the editing fiasco, doesn’t jump to conclusions which i like. A good question to me, but to follow it up with a vote after gen wolfs actions is odd to me, not even waiting for a response to his question. A good follow up to my response, although at this stage everything is a question which isn’t going to get you anywhere without your analysis to back up the importance of the question. Second part of the response to me is insight into his thoughts which is what im looking for. Again no mention of gen wolf at all. Doesnt bite on the fegelein comment which is a positive in my view. The comment was clearly to inspire a reaction and the reaction back from nacho was as sarcastic as the initial prod. Again questioning me, but a good follow up comment on how he does things.
While the vote was very reactionary, he does seem to have analysis in him. He along with champion both will leanb town based on strong analysis but forthcoming posts will sway this one either way for me.

So you're also concerned he's digging on you and ignoring others. Good to know. How valid do you think his attacks are? Actual analysis or phantom accusations? (i.e. ones that aren't real, but made up to trick people into thinking you look scummy)

Champinoman – Nice opening RVS vote. backs gen wolfs post #20 even though all explanation to it was shocking. Attempts to put the focus on feel it, but the stick he uses to beat him with is that he voted for miss stranger over the scummier gen wolf... the same gen wolf he liked the post of at the start of this analysis opener. From there the analysis gets stronger, and i like both his pressure on me and his equal pressure on nachomamma. Thats not picking a side, thats analysing both our starts to get to a conclusion of who is up to what. Next post is a total focus on me because he clearly isn’t happy with what i have said OR has seen an opportunity to push on something specific, either way he has reverted from a measured view of the back and forth to picking a side quite easily. Interesting buddying process going on there.
Had a strong town lean followed by a scummy focusing post. Need a bit more from him to know whether he leans town or mafia, but based on a strong analytical post there is promise there so leaning town.

So he noticed

Feel It

's oportunism, which is what made me also doubt him. Why is everyone ignoring the fact

Feel It

went from scum read on me to town read on me based on a couple posts? He either didn't believe I was scum to begin with (or knew it) and was simply hopping on a forming wagon, or I'm too convincing and

Gen_Wolf

is too scummy, though he said almost the same thing as

Feel It

said about me. Who else thinks one of them is quite certainly mafia?

[Miss Stranger]

Feel It

, you are contributing and I wholeheartedly agree that

Gen_Wolf

is scummy. You are totally right about him. All that makes me uncomfortable was that first you blatantly accused me of hopping, and then it's like it never happened. See, like this:

Feel It: Changing your vote so much? I'm changing mine on you.
Gen_Wolf: You want to edit your posts? Changing votes? Lynch.
Fegel: She's fine with 3 votes.
Gen_Wolf: No, she's scum. Lynch her now and don't bother with D1, we'll have one less scum on D2.
Fegel: No.
Me: I didn't change votes, first one was totally random. I didn't scumslip, I just didn't want to doublepost.
Feel It: Miss, that's reasonable. I'm unvoting. OMG Gen_Wolf, you basically claimed mafia.

See what I mean? If I got lynched, you'd both look bad for pushing me for no real reason. Now if

Gen_Wolf

gets lynched as town, everyone would just know he was scummy as hell and you,

Feel It

, would pass under the radar. That's not to say I'm sure you're scum, hell

Gen_Wolf

IS painfully scummy, but you still definitely are on my suspect list should he flip town.

[Miss Stranger]

Genuine question: what is backseat scumhunting and is it a good thing?

[Miss Stranger]

You know what, screw bolding, can't be bothered anymore.

Other than my post on your Miss Stranger, what else do you have?

Subtle expressions. Jump scare at Nacho, overdefensiveness, more of a survival attitude rather than analystic. That sort of things definitely adds up to form a bigger picture.

Define nice. And what was the reaction test? Was I supposed to look like a panicked scum if I were scum, or was the scum supposed to take your words literally that you actually want to lynch me before half the players have posted, and use them to make you look scummy, which is what Feel It did?

I took this one out out your monster post Miss Stranger. No, that was not the intention. The name is quite straight forward, it is a reaction test to see how people react. Whether they vote for you or shy away from you or whether they ignore it all together. Its to see someones reaction?

Well, so far you've only elaborated on FI's reaction. What about mine and Fegel's?

If I got lynched, you'd both look bad for pushing me for no real reason. Now if

Gen_Wolf

gets lynched as town, everyone would just know he was scummy as hell and you,

Feel It

, would pass under the radar. That's not to say I'm sure you're scum, hell

Gen_Wolf

IS painfully scummy, but you still definitely are on my suspect list should he flip town.

Yeah, if Gen got lynched and he flipped town I would very likely be lynched d2, but even then it doesn't really make sense. If I was a maf, why would i draw attention to myself and push a lynch on a guy who was passing under the radar, who I knew was innocent, and when he got lynched and flipped town everyone would be after my blood? It's illogical and bad mafia play, I'm only changing my vote and pushing against Gen_Wolf because he seems the most scummy to me.

This argument works in both directions. You aren't the only one who's digging on GW (seeing how Generic shares your suspicions, as well as I to a degree), and I wouldn't suspect you *just* because you started an easy lynch on a scummy townie. That's not what bothers me most. You just seem to have a conviction to lynch GW and ignore everybody unrelated to the discussion.

[Miss Stranger]

@Generic:

please refer to my "monster" post #68.

Sorry, I'm quite interested in the game, but no one was active and I was kind of busy making dinner, so I just absently refreshed page from time to time.

[Miss Stranger]

But what gets me is that even though Miss Stranger was apparently less alarming than Gene_Wolf, you still awarded Miss Stranger with a vote yet Gene_Wolf was not worthy of a vote until 4 hours later.

I agree with this. Especially since this:

Yeah, I changed my vote later because I didn't realize at the time he is an SE.

Doesn't really explain it that well.

I agree, but I don't think it's too great of a red flag. He could be telling the truth, or he could be covering a more awkward reason than negligence. Or it could be a slip. I think we're overanalysing it, since all we can do is baselessly speculate.

If you are not satisfied with the explanation then that means if I hadn't done that RVS would have been longer, would you have liked RVS to be longer? Plus you have given quite a nice reaction to a reaction test.

Could be just guilty conscience about vote hopping too much right after he blamed me for it. Although it really sits even more ill/awkward/scummy if he admits that's the truth. Or again, I could be overanalysing.
What was his reaction and what did you get from it?

Already addressed in post

#54

("from the reactions it got I would have to place Feel It as my top scum candidate. This based on his extreme focus on this one post which clearly has been shown as a joke and secondly from his pure lack of involvment in other areas of the game. Almost as if he is avoiding the game because he has something to hide.") Did you deliberately omit that post and why?

Yes I am very serious. Just because you have more posts does not make you more involved. It could just mean your posting more fluff.

That's true, but it's a useless statement unless he IS posting more fluff, which you're sort of indirectly hinting at but not actually saying.

I liked Generic's #61. I feel those sorts of things are overkill on page 3, but my perception of him as passive, coasting scum is clearly wrong.

I definitely agree he's not a passive scum, was just a little restrained at first. I like his comprehensive analysis, but I find some alarming conclusions in it, which is why I can't yet pinpoint him as town.

It's also worth to note however that I also find Feel It oportunistic, but so was Gen_Wolf's suggestion on me. Hence why I think one of them is evil.

Why just one?

Because it sounds pretty counterinituitive to me for both to be scum. FI won't get too much town credit if GW gets lynched and revealed as mafia, and neither would GW in the opposite event. I don't think the end justifies the means.

You know what, screw bolding, can't be bothered anymore.

(thank god)

Well... I'm sorry? :/

Bullshit rationalisation: nicknames like "Feel It" that read like actual phrases just make sentences sound bad. I wanted nicknames to read like obvious nicknames.

[Miss Stranger]

Damn. Messed up the second quote box. Sorry.

[Miss Stranger]

"Could be just guilty conscience about vote hopping too much right after he blamed me for it. Although it really sits even more ill/awkward/scummy if he admits that's the truth. Or again, I could be overanalysing." should go to the analysis of the former box.

[Miss Stranger]

Miss Stranger is also becoming a strong townread as well. I like her response to pressure, and I like that she hasn't immediately jumped on her attackers even though she probably could have. I think she'd do well to place a vote down and be a little more aggressive, but the start is good.

Gen_Wolf has been away for a while, and I need to hear a little more from himself, as well as from Antagon, James May, Fegelein and Champ on him. Gen_Wolf is becoming a main wagon, but I need more reasons and opinions before I place a vote.

UNVOTE: Antagon.

Vote is on hold until we get some input from other players. My current analysis:
Fegelein: leaning town
Feel It: null
Gen_Wolf: scummy
Antagon: null

Do you remember why Fegelein was a townread here?

I labeled him leaning town because his reactions came to me as ones of a careful, mistrusting town rather than a mafia attempting to nitpick "scumslips" and guide the lynch onto an easy target.

Champianoman and Feel It are also town.

I'm not exactly certain what is definitely a towntell that makes one pinpoint a person in the town zone. At this point I can't strictly say that for anyone. You and Champ *feel* town at this point, but it's merely a feeling, just like Fegelein was.

Already addressed in post #54 ("from the reactions it got I would have to place Feel It as my top scum candidate. This based on his extreme focus on this one post which clearly has been shown as a joke and secondly from his pure lack of involvment in other areas of the game. Almost as if he is avoiding the game because he has something to hide.") Did you deliberately omit that post and why?

Nope, definitely missed that one. Although now that you bring it up, I'm curious what you think of it. I think it's inaccurate and OMGUS-y.

It was partially accurate when it was made, because at that point FI was digging deep into GW, although it wasn't an extreme focus on one post, it was a much broader scumread. I can't tell if he's deliberately avoiding the rest of the game or just very focused onto lynching his suspect, but he did offer some scanty analysis once I pointed that out as well. I don't think FI has something to hide, but rather has nothing to say, and I'm not sure if that's a good thing. But overall the post is OMGUS-y. I'm not sure if that's the expected reaction from town or scum point of view. I was just wondering whether you ignored it on purpose, or just overlooked it.

I definitely agree he's not a passive scum, was just a little restrained at first. I like his comprehensive analysis, but I find some alarming conclusions in it, which is why I can't yet pinpoint him as town.

What alarming conclusions? Why does it matter that he's drawn different conclusions than you have as long as the way he gets there makes sense?

Not so much different conclusions than me rather than overweighting minor actions ("nice opening vote"), drawing contradicting conclusions ("worries me she isn't aware of editing posts while admitting to not being new" versus "editing remark is far-fetched") and overuse of narrative. He could be reading into superfluous information and trying to give it a meaning, or he could just be in a rush and dropping raw thoughts on paper without caring if it sounds random and not entirely coherent. First one is scummy and second one is towny. At this point I'm not sure, hence why I can't pinpoint him.

Because it sounds pretty counterinituitive to me for both to be scum. FI won't get too much town credit if GW gets lynched and revealed as mafia, and neither would GW in the opposite event. I don't think the end justifies the means.

Interesting. Why do they need town credit when one is lynched in order to be mafia together?

Because FI immediately jumped on GW, previously unsuspected, right this early into the game, and is currently driving a wagon on him that gains momentum with increasing certainty. I find throwing one partner under the bus, especially on Day 1, without gaining any town credit of sorts, simply unsubstantiated and illogical. Or am I overlooking a grand WIFOM and bloody gambit?

[Miss Stranger]

Genuine question: what is backseat scumhunting and is it a good thing?

Don't ignore my questions, oh mighty IC! ^^;

[Miss Stranger]

@Miss Stranger

- You asked how you and Feg reacted to this reaction test.
Feg barely reacted. Just said no lassing it and carrying on with the game.
You on the other hand Miss Stranger didn't react at all as you didn't post about it until post 49. Before post 49 and after the lets lynch her post, you posted 3 times yet failed to mention it at all, but then all of a sudden a few other players had mentioned it and Nacho had had his say then you ask a question, which had already been answered.

That's a lie. Look at my post

#22

, where I explained why I switched vote, why I wanted to edit, and why it's not scummy. Then I explicitly asked why you think it's scummy, something you answered

after the posts you are referring to

with "I wasn't serious about being scummy, I was reaction testing". Why are you twisting my words and deliberately overlooking my replies?

@Miss Stranger, firstly why did you take 3 posts before you asked me a question about this "reaction test" and why did you ask a question that had already been answered? Making yourself look busy?

I already pointed out you are lying about the three posts. Next, right after you mentioned reaction test in

#31

, I immediately acknowledged it in post

#47

, which is my first post after the one you made in response to my

#22

, namely the infamous

#31

. 2 posts later,

#49

I ask a rhetorical question ("based on what?") to show Antagon why I think it's scummy. Any vote that goes in the lines of "I'm voting you because you did this and this, but I'm not saying why it's scummy" is trying to criminalise innocent actions, and is therefore a step towards what mafia wants to, lynch an innocent. Point out where I made myself look busy.

And you better have a good explanation to why you're outright lying to defend yourself. Let me guess, next thing I know is you're going to claim an important power role, and your survivalist attidude was town motivated.

[Miss Stranger]

On a friendlier note, good luck with exams and don't take my stake on you personally.

[Miss Stranger]

What are your reasons for disliking Gen right now?

I'm not sure why you are asking this question. At the time of asking it, I already explained my reasons in post

#77

: "Subtle expressions. Jump scare at Nacho, overdefensiveness, more of a survival attitude rather than analystic. That sort of things definitely adds up to form a bigger picture." Gen_Wolf hadn't made a single post at that time, so I'd no reason to change my attitude.

[Miss Stranger]

Miss Stranger

- She is very active but also seems like she is making herself busy. However a long with this she does make valid points at times but is also very quick to concede certain points. I get the impression she is new, and thus very timid making it easy to intimidate your opinion onto Miss Stranger. I might be completely wrong though but from her current play I cannot see her being scum. I do not, however, like this if Gen flips town then let vote Feel it business. It is a very easy way for scummy players to justify to lynches in succession and thus through a spanner in her town works just a bit. Ninja'd here. Post 22 however doesn't mention my post directly but rahter questions your mistake. Thus it took 3 posts for you to directly confront my post. I am not lying or putting words in your mouth, I am simply asking a question. However, your post reinforced my townish read on you, but again I don't like that fact that you bring up PR's? I never once insinuated I was a PR and I won't be as it is a detriment to town. If I am a PR I will claim when necessary, if I am not, then I will not. (Thank you for the luck) (I know it isnt personal, its just a game )

I'm honestly not making myself look busy. My job is IT based and I work from home on my computer most of the time. Besides, I'm pregnant. I don't go out a lot, which gives me a reason for posting often, and if I'm not posting, I also have a legitimate reason to do so. My sleep pattern is pretty erratic, for one. I have life, surprise.

I see I've been misunderstood about FI. If you get lynched and turn town, he won't be an obvious lynch, just rise on the suspect list. He's not the only person digging on you, and recently he's even calmed down and broadened his view after I called him out on it in post

#77

. It's more of a gut feeling than anything else, and it was all coming from his polarisation between you and me. I have probably misunderstood "please do not lynch me anytime soon" as a survivalist attitude, i.e. it's a lot better for town if you specifically stay alive sort of thing.

[Miss Stranger]

Sorry Generic, one by one

You asked about buddying of champ and gen wolf. Tat was more to do with champ liking a gen wolf comment and gen wolf leaping on it as the only morsel of positive feedback he got over it. Gen wolf comes across as new scum, but champs positive comment wasn't at the post but at the reaction from others it got (which he later explained), so the buddying comment was misplaced at this time.

Okay, I agree.

On your editing mess up. I never said it was proof you were scum, I played devils advocate on the analysis. I can't just write you off as new and give you a free ride. I'm new here, would you accept me at my word that I've never played mafia before? I would hope not. So I looked at both sides of the coin, but your paranoid frustration is the most telling town tell you have at present, so my read on you is new town and not new scum.

I apologise if I come off as paranoid. Having someone distort your words or look for underlying scumminess in innocent actions is frustrating and instantly makes them scum in my eyes.

Feel it has been showing early signs of gentle pressure application although some of it has been misguided, and also thinking about the vote.
His scum plays included hesitancy on the gen wolf vote when he wasnt so hesitant in miss stranger, and a couple of occasions where he has done something without explanation only to fill in the gap later when someone questions it (can be a scum tell as he uses the time to make the reason fit the agenda or mood). But the explanations that have been forthcoming have made a lot of sense. He is more town than scum to me at this stage.

I just wanted to see if your viewpoint complements or conflicts with mine. I do think FI is town for the same reasons you do, but his sudden friendliness to me and sudden (ignoring the small delay) attack on Gen_Wolf is what alarmed me.

"Push it back in how?"
I LOLed...

Aww...

But moving in from the question looking odd in isolation, this was referring to my comment about gen wolf and RVS. He makes a comment that his desire to quicklynch on page one of day 1 was because he hates RVS and wanted to end it early. But he also said it was a joke. And he also said it was a reaction test. And he also said it was the secret password to the land of narnia... Ok, I added the last one.
But my point was, antagon had hit a serious vote down and the paranoia stage that always follows RVS was in full swing when gen wolf pops up with what he says was a joke (outside RVS) to END RVS. If anything joking when it's already ended is trying to return to RVS. So he is either lying about it bring a joke or that it was to end RVS. The reaction test comment is a cheap trick to cover scummy play by saying you wanted to provoke a reaction with a provocative comment.

Or the "joking" part is referring to "not being serious" about lynching me and the reaction test was an underlying reason for the joke. I don't think a joke here is meant in the sense of an RVS joke. I see how you interpreted it, but it was probably a misinterpretation on your part.

Don't quite see the relevance if this question at this stage. I will answer this as the game progresses if gen wolf enters L-1 territory. Right now everyone should be looking at identifying a top three suspects list. Don't clear anybody and guaranteed town, the ones slipping up on their words occasionally are more likely town than the completely clean players.
Townies don't vet their posts, scum do more often than not. So a town player won't realise or care to notice if a comment seems scummy, a mafia player will ensure every comment has purpose.

I agree again.

[Miss Stranger]

@Generic:

It wouldn't be a joke then if it was a test. It would be deliberately pro active for reaction, this not a joke. It can be one or the other, not both. And I suspect by hedging the bets on that there is hope everyone will be dissuaded from probing into a very poorly answered reason.

Had he simply said "I was playing it for reaction" or "it was sarcastic, of course we wouldn't lynch that early, I was passing judgement on how stupid the fast wagon was" then I wouldn't have an arguement. But he took three bites of the cherry to explain it.

See, this is one of the things that are very hard to justify and can be easily swayed in either direction. "Omg, lynch her right now, she's obvious" could be sarcasm (joke) with an underlying motivation of extracting a reaction,called you out on defending GW by attacking FI or it could be an opportunistic scum move. Both are possible and neither can be disproven, by Gen_Wolf himself or anyone else, so it's best to mark this specific expression as "null" and move along. By all means this isn't the scummiest tell of Gen_Wolf either.

@champinoman:

So many questions here that weren't directed at you but you felt you needed to answer. The most interesting one for me is the first exchange. Why is it that when I question the reasons behind what

Feel It

has asked that you need to bring your thoughts on

Gen_Wolf

into it? I don't need you coming in and trying to make the waters murky.

I'm not answering questions directed at someone else, I'm sharing my comments on your thoughts. Do you not want my opinion? You called FI opportunistic, I said GW was also opportunistic for jumping in excitement over my "scumminess" which he never explained. You appeared to ignore that, or never elaborated on it. You seem uncomfortable that I poked into your analysis and that I called you out based on wiki theory (I think so, you didn't mention that part), which explains your slightly hostile and emotional reaction right now. You are now defending yourself by attacking me.

And I feel that you were worried about that being it's own post so you added in the next 3 replies which don't really bring any content to the discussion in the hope it wasn't so obvious.

Just read a little further down the page and you do the same thing in post #70.

"Worried"? I don't see anything that points out towards being worried. I'm simply commenting on your comments. You made comments on different people, which have nothing to do with FI and GW, so naturally my comments on them have nothing to do with the previous discussion. Is it so important that I separate different discussions in different posts? I've nothing to hide. You can always refer any part of it you like, just like Generic did.
Post

#70

wasn't directed at you at all, it was a reply to FI. What exactly makes you suspicious?

Feg, I'm trying to be a bit more cautious this time because the last game i played I jumped the gun on a lynch

that costed me the game

>_> (was town that game btw) and I don't have solid reads on anyone but the questions was merely out of curiosity to see their reasoning. Better to survey the area from afar (well for me at least since I am trying to stop jumping the bullet for long phases like this :/ Use to playing 48-96 hour day phases and it requires a bit of on your feet kind of thing...)

*IF* you are town and you manage to either get yourself lynched or nightkilled wouldn't you prefer that you helped out before dying?

And the bolded part is interesting. You know that you, as a dead townie (in that game), still win if town wins right? This is a team game not a solo quest.

No. He said he was trigger happy and mislynched and lost the game. You read the entire post wrong.

And what erratic sleep pattern?

One of your first posts, and my question:

...

@champinoman, you guys had been on while I was asleep (I'm English) ...
...

...

And a side note: Considering the game started at aprox 1pm (England time) and your first post was at 8.30pm why did you use being asleep as justification for not reading the first phase of voting?

I'm waiting to hear your explanation because currently it seems like a pretty poorly constructed excuse.

Why do you demand explanations about people's erratic sleep patterns? That's a ridiculous thing to hang on to. He joined the game later and briefly mentioned why. You are overweighting innocent actions.

Spoiler: Nachomamma post #85

But what gets me is that even though Miss Stranger was apparently less alarming than Gene_Wolf, you still awarded Miss Stranger with a vote yet Gene_Wolf was not worthy of a vote until 4 hours later.

I agree with this. Especially since this:

Yeah, I changed my vote later because I didn't realize at the time he is an SE.

Doesn't really explain it that well.

If you are not satisfied with the explanation then that means if I hadn't done that RVS would have been longer, would you have liked RVS to be longer? Plus you have given quite a nice reaction to a reaction test.

What was his reaction and what did you get from it?

Yes I am very serious. Just because you have more posts does not make you more involved. It could just mean your posting more fluff.

That's true, but it's a useless statement unless he IS posting more fluff, which you're sort of indirectly hinting at but not actually saying.

I liked Generic's #61. I feel those sorts of things are overkill on page 3, but my perception of him as passive, coasting scum is clearly wrong.

It's also worth to note however that I also find Feel It oportunistic, but so was Gen_Wolf's suggestion on me. Hence why I think one of them is evil.

Why just one?

He's sort of sitting back and just asking questions instead of providing real counter arguments against people.

Explain.

You know what, screw bolding, can't be bothered anymore.

(thank god)

Nice long post. Pity there is no content in it. I could summarise this entire post as 'Reiterate a few things already said, point out some really obvious stuff and deflect any possibility of offering my own opinion by asking a return question. Your next few posts over the next hour are very similar too.

Then ask him for an opinion? By pointing out what he does you are doing pretty much the same thing, pointing out. I don't like how he has selective reading, but the content omitted by him is later interpretated by him as scummy. A scum would likely DIG such content and not omit it. I went through a previous game of his and this behaviour seems recurring. Therefore it could be a result of playing too many games simultaneously.

Because lists like this should be posted with at least

some

reasoning behind it.
I ignored the read on Feel It and myself because everyone starts out being read as null. As the game goes on, it becomes easier to get reads on players.

That's not what I asked. I asked why you felt you needed to clarify post #29 by Miss Stranger but you didn't feel the need to clarify post #17 by Fegelein. Here is the post bolded for convenience:

She's fine at L-2.

Antagon is probably Town

.

Considering the above was a read on yourself I find it hard to accept you missed it.

This is a valid point.

Don't clear anybody and guaranteed town, the ones slipping up on their words occasionally are more likely town than the completely clean players. Townies don't vet their posts, scum do more often than not. So a town player won't realise or care to notice if a comment seems scummy, a mafia player will ensure every comment has purpose.

Did your scum buddy make a silly error that you are hoping to sweep under the mat with this? Seems like an odd addition to your post.

He is saying that a town player is more likely to do slips because they don't care if their comments can be misinterpreted. A scum player would be much more cautious about having their comments clean. Which is why you can't reliably tell if a slip is scummy or not. A scum player would look deep into such slips, since they can be interpreted in either way and nobody can prove it wrong. You also seem to swear by this method, since you already reacted so many times. Examples: "you seem keen onto merging posts together", "you haven't explained your erratic sleep patterns", "are you trying to defend your scum buddy by including this in your post".

[Miss Stranger]

@Generic:

I am enjoying champinos über paranoia at anything said. You are one of the more experienced players aren't you?

I thought this was a newbie game, am I not meant to be imparting general wisdom as we go so newer players get better? Anyone auto clearing at this stage of a game is a fool, that was my essential point. I didn't think I had aimed that at anyone in particular, was just off on a little tangent. But hey, that's two goes you have had now to try and spin a case in me, will they all consist of you taking us on a little story as to what the hidden agenda was or will you occasionally point to actual scum tells rather than loose theory?

In the beginning Champ felt more of a townie to me, because it looked like he genuinely adressed different view points. It turns out he's actually digging into very isolated mentionings and not at the broader picture at all. Very selective scumhunting on Antagon's overlook, James's misread post, Generic's sleep patterns and a few other instances I already mentioned. Seems to get exsessively (gaaah, spelling?!) alarmed by "slips" and reacted violently when I poked his comments, which is something that just sits ill with me. On the other hand, he has a certain friction with more than half the village (Nacho, Generic, FI, Antagon, and lastly James and me), of which 4 people have been pressuring Gen_Wolf a lot. If Gen_Wolf turns out to be mafia, Champ is definitely next in line for me.

On the other hand, James and Antagon are simply enigmatic lurkers, so attacking them makes sense, though probably not for the reasons ("slips") he pointed. I really don't like this.

Btw, something of note.

Champino has so far chose to dissect my posts to death, down to my comments on time and story time about my motives... Can't seem to find a single comment on gen wolf beyond him getting quite reactive when I pointed out his positive comment towards him.

In fact I find it hard to find a strong focus from him on anyone outside of me and feel it who both have put pressure on gen wolf. Only when directly referenced by miss stranger is she brought into the mix.

Potential links already.

See above. He's actually attacking more than half the village. I can't tell if that's a good thing.

@James May:

Guess I can give out my reads on those who I have a slight feeling on, skimming through this because I have finals on two of my classes this week so I do apologize for not being active.

Good luck!

Miss Stranger: Aside from that minor derp up on the editing part, it seems like your leaning towards town atm, but I feel like you're being insistent on starting a wagon on gen wolf (although I may not be as experienced in this sort of scumreading/hunting as most people here) but we'll see how gen wolf goes on from this point.

Editing... oh, you too? -_- Aaaanyway. I'm actually not pushing for a wagon on Gen_Wolf, but acknowledging that one has formed (FI, Nacho and Generic). The reason I'm holding my vote back is because I

don't

want to vote Gen_Wolf just yet. He's now away which gives a good opportunity for Fegelein, Antagon and you to finally arrive on stage, and I also want to hear Champ's response.

Nacho: Aside from the "backseat scumhunting" that Fegelin pointed out, I can't point out exactly where to place you in atm, leaning slightly towards town maybe.

What do you think makes him town and what causes doubts?

Generic: So far providing interesting analysis upon other players on his first few posts, it looks like he's town at the moment but who knows, he could be playing a good scum cover-up, we'll see how it goes from there, as I haven't seen how his playstyle is, might look into previous games to find a good meta on him unless if its his first.

IMO for now Generic is the strongest town lead I've seen.

Gen wolf: Heh. Nice sarcastic remark in regards to simply lynching Miss Stranger. Not sure where Feel It (Was it Feel It? Might need to look through it again, but I think it was Feel It. if not was was Feglin) is going on with champin "buddying" you just for the compliment on that remark but i see little to no association with buddying/white knighting involving with that little agreement.

We established he commended on the result, not the remark, and the result made Feel It a pretty good dart target for Champ.

@James May:

Curious why you haven't mentioned Champ this far, who seems to be digging on you quite a lot already.

@Fegelein, Antagon:

I'd really like to see some more involvement from the two of you.

[Miss Stranger]

This is starting to bug me and I will finally say something. Miss Stranger, a lot of what you are saying is based on if's, and a lot of these 'if's' revolve around me. Firstly, IF Gen_Wolf is scum then Feel It is town and vice versa. Secondly, 'If' Gen is scum then Champ is next inline.

My grievances with this are, firstly, you are already playing Day 2. You are so sure that I am going to flip scum that when I don't you are going to be taking two steps back and thus not only would you have wasted day 1 but you will be spending day 2 starting a fresh. I am not saying that voting me is wrong, if you feel I am the most scummiest of players then please lay your vote down on me. However, what I do ask is stop making assumptions based on me being scum because I can promise you it is wrong and it will be a detriment to town inevitably. Thus, all I ask is play the game now for Day 1. If I do get voted off, then start making your decisions based on solid facts because you will know my alignment and thus there will be no need to speculate.

Heeeey aren't you supposed to be afk? (kidding, good thing you show up)

If I was dead sure you're scum, my vote would have already been on you. Since I'm not, nor do I think you are the scummiest, it's not. I admit you are pretty central to my reasoning so far, and that's because aside from me, 4 more players (FI, Generic, Nacho and Champ) are directly actively discussing on your behaviour. At this point you aren't scummy enough to deserve my vote, you are just scummy enough for me to have a "what if" about you. I wouldn't be surprised if you

don't

end up being lynched today, but it won't come unexpected.

I don't think I'm playing Day 2 just yet. I'm still sorting people into my town and mafia zone, and while you are a card I often toy with, you are *not* this central to me as you make it seem like. It's the vastly different opinions about you that make you central.

The fact you are genuinely frustrated about how I think you're scum is probably the first strong town vibe from you, and I'm glad you spoke up.

[Miss Stranger]

@Antagon and Generic:

This is starting to bug me and I will finally say something. Miss Stranger, a lot of what you are saying is based on if's, and a lot of these 'if's' revolve around me. Firstly, IF Gen_Wolf is scum then Feel It is town and vice versa. Secondly, 'If' Gen is scum then Champ is next inline.

My grievances with this are, firstly, you are already playing Day 2. You are so sure that I am going to flip scum that when I don't you are going to be taking two steps back and thus not only would you have wasted day 1 but you will be spending day 2 starting a fresh. I am not saying that voting me is wrong, if you feel I am the most scummiest of players then please lay your vote down on me. However, what I do ask is stop making assumptions based on me being scum because I can promise you it is wrong and it will be a detriment to town inevitably. Thus, all I ask is play the game now for Day 1. If I do get voted off, then start making your decisions based on solid facts because you will know my alignment and thus there will be no need to speculate.

I might be relying on emotional tells too much, but in this post Gen_Wolf appears to be:

1) Frustrated that in his opinion all my reasoning relies on him being scum, which is wrong, and I'm essentially wasting time and hurting the town. This can of course be disguised scum fatalistic attitude, essentially trying to hold my reasoning back, but that's the less probable case IMO.
2) Frustrated that I'm a person he seemingly trusts, but I don't believe him, i.e. "I'm bloody innocent, I know I can't prove it, but can't you just believe me for heaven's sake?!". I think it's way harder to fake this reaction as scum, because scum know they aren't innocent. In this sense, scum frustration would be along the lines of "Damn, I screwed up", which is vastly different and difficult to morph into a genuine emotional reaction.

What I mean to say is that on a purely emotional level Gen_Wolf seems more a desperate townie who is frustrated by mistrust than a desperate scum who is frustrated with himself. We all know that feeling when your lie doesn't work and you get caught, and I don't think this is what Gen_Wolf is portraying. Then again, it's difficult to read between the lines of forum mafia, and I might just be incorrectly falling back on my sensitive and emotional personality. I just think we should indeed steer focus away from Gen_Wolf for a while and collect some information from these individuals:

• Nachomamma8
  - I really want a broad analysis from him (T/S list?), because most of what he's currently doing is asking questions and reading selectively. His only opinions so far have been on Generic, myself and Gen_Wolf.
  
• Antagon
  - Really, REALLY selective reading. Only answers direct questions relating to himself. Was much more active in the beginning, but then quickly hid behind the curtains. If he is town, he isn't really contributing, and has no explanation for that, which makes him in the best case, a bad town. VOTE: Antagon
  
• Fegelein
  - Dropping a line once or twice a day. I observed his other games (currently) and it seems the case there. So he's not so much lurking than indeed being busy as hell. However, I would like to direct his attention to this post in anoher game:

  Why do I feel Derivan is scum?
  
  He makes really long-winded posts which personally appear to me as contrived, and he's fence sitting, locking himself down into ultra defence, without throwing down any vote. He seems to be keen only to advance his own agendas in the game atm.
  
  Also, goodmorning, you've still avoided to say why I am scum.

  See, this feels better than "James May acknoledges changing playstyle, which is very scummy, and Nacho is playing his scum meta". What is scummy about James May and how is Nacho's town meta different from his scum meta?
  
• James May
  - I don't personally think he's scum right now, from what little information I have, but he's not obviously town either, so I'll just wait until he's better involved.
  
• Champinoman
  - For the most part he (used to) look fine. I don't like his obsession with slips. I await an explanation why they are so important to him. I also don't like his "you're scummy for attacking him/me" attitude. In general I get the impression he finds everybody scummy, which isn't quite useful, so I request a T/S list.

[Miss Stranger]

But that's the problem, you can't say for sure if something is a scumslip or simply an innocent line. Are the following scumslips?

- admiting to being asleep during the day as an excuse for joining 6h later into the game
- overlooking a post
- merging posts together
- addressing different discussion in the same post
- admitting town is more likely to slip than scum and it's unreliable

He's had a significant reaction to the following "slips", and I just don't think it's justified. These aren't true "scumslips".

[Miss Stranger]

@Champinoman

Following on from my previous point; excluding what happened in the first 2 pages what reasons do you have for voting Gen_Wolf? I can't see any excluding those 2 pages which makes me wonder why you need to hear what others think about the issue before placing your vote. To me it looks like you are scared to look accountable if he flips town.

Except I never voted Gen_Wolf if we exclude the joke RVS vote, so your question is first of all worded incorrectly. What I believe is scummy about him was first his odd behaviour during RVS, then his nervousness and poor explanations, and in general the clingy survival attitude he exhibits, which can have three possible explanations:
1) he believes he's too valuable an asset to the town
2) he's scum
3) he's genuinely interested in the game and doesn't want to get out so early
I'm only considering the third one because I try to keep a broad horizon. Clearly Gen_Wolf is very uncomfortable, but I believe he tries to genuinely scumhunt despite his nervousness, as shown in his latest posts (sorry, bit short on time so I can't look up the number right now). He isn't attacking his attackers, he isn't trying to derail the wagon onto someone else, he's probing the soil and looking for suspects as best as he can. I have mixed feelings about him, I definitely don't trust him, but overall now I think it's worth to hear what he has to say if we lessen the pressure.
And to answer your suspicions, no, I'm not afraid to look accountable for lynching an innocent. I'm afraid of mislynching out of stupidity and narrow horizon before all other options and opinions are considered.

[Miss Stranger]

@Champinoman:

You are trying to imply somehow that I know I'm an obvious lynch candidate but try not to be. This according to you is justified with my "if/then" scenarios, which he thinks aim to guide future lynches. I already explained why this is not true - I'm only looking for links to the best of my ability. What I said about Gen_Wolf turning scum doesn't make Feel It town or you scum, but raises my suspicions. Since when my suspicions alone decide who gets lynched? I don't think it serves town's interest to withhold any observations I might acquire, given I might die Night 1, which is why I try to say everything. I like to think in advance and if/then is something I always keep an eye out for, not just in mafia games. Your speculation about my motivation is paranoid and wrong.

No, it isn't. I was referring to the vote you intended to place if more people supported your cause. I clearly stated in the following sentence that your vote hadn't been placed yet.

My bad. I thought you literally meant I've put a vote on Gen_Wolf.

4) he's town and wants town to win. <--- 7 of us are playing this way but clearly not you.

Excessive survivalist attitude during Day 1 is not attributed to "I'm town and I want to win". This is something I find scummy about Gen_Wolf. Town has majority and shouldn't be concerned about being lynched more than about finding the scum. In my past few posts I've been trying to relieve the pressure on Gen_Wolf and give him a chance to find scum instead of fighting for his life. You seem to omit essential parts of my posts and use aggressive open accusations which are clearly baseless. What makes you think I "clearly don't want town to win"?

I'm also not too impressed with another round of PR fishing.

I'm not fishing. I'm trying to justify a survivalist attitude. His post after the V/LA post discredited that concern, which is why I said "a valuable asset". A vanilla townie who believes has something important to contribute is also a valuable asset. Try again.

And I don't see any negatives in your description of how he is reacting to all of this pressure. In fact, the way you have written it actually makes me consider that he might be a bigger town read than I gave him credit for earlier.

When he was first pressured he immediately jumped to defend and excuse himself. For a while he was obsessed with himself and offered little broad scumhunt. Lately his obsession turned into mere nervousness, and he is now concerned with getting reads on people, which is not scummy. This is why I've been supporting lessening the pressure on him to extract actual information instead of nervous self-defense. Which means you agree with me.

My points about you remain valid. You overweight innocent actions to make everyone look scummy and are insanely quick to jump the OMGUS gun on the first bit of (indirect) criticism, namely when I commented on your first reads. I was scummy for "murking the waters" (expressing an opinion on your opinion), for merging posts (hiding something) and addressing different discussions within the same post (to make something not obvious). Now you think I'm avoiding myself as an "obvious lynch" by trying to set up future lynches (which I'm not) and also that I'm PR fishing (which is not what I'm doing). You are either too paranoid about me, or you are disguising superficial parts of my behaviour with strong incriminating words. A healthy dose of paranoia is helpful, but if you think everybody is scum your decision is only as reliable as the proportion of scum to town, which from your point of view considering your reads ("Generic is the one person I consider to be leaning town at the moment") is currently 2/5 or 40%.

By the way I'm going to note that once Generic calmed himself down a little in regards to you you suddenly forgot about your "did your scum buddy slip up" read on him. Unless that was also part of your paranoia/strong words methodology. If you hadn't mentioned Antagon or James May, I'd have to think your prime suspects are people attacking you. You are really enigmatic and difficult to read through, but for now I'm thinking it's more of a paranoia and "intimidate the scum" bravado rather than a "make this person look scummy" strong word lexicon.

@Feel It:

Miss Stranger- Similar to Generic, but she over thinks things. Also, what makes you think James May is less scummy than Antagon?

Overthinking is better than underthinking, no? But to answer your question - James May looks like a newbie who is trying to adapt to the much slower and analytical pace of MafiaScum and who actually posts helpful stuff. Antagon's game summary can be literally brought down to the following (citing from memory):

Wagons in RVS are good. Why do you think Gen_Wolf is scum? Why do you think Fegelein is town? By backseat scumhunting he meant this post. Sorry, I overlooked that other post, but it was pretty much self-explanatory. Why do you think this is town frustration and not scum frustration?

He's pretty much only responded whenever his name was called, and hasn't contributed much if anything. Therefore I think Antagon is scummier.

[Miss Stranger]

@Antagon:

Keep us updated when you're done and please don't focus exclusively on Fegelein. I'd appreciate a T/S list.

@Feel It:

I know what makes you uncomfortable about James May and I certainly don't trust him yet, but for now it looks like he's doing *something* productive, albeit very timid, which is more than what can be said about the gentlemen Fegelein, Antagon and Nachomamma8.

I know what you mean, congratz on your pregnancy btw

Thanks! I'm halfway through already! Fathers amongst you can probably imagine what I'm being through right now

[Miss Stranger]

I can't sleep... here's my brief T/S list for the moment.

• Antagon (SE):
  he's participating very little and his participation is involved with very odd, isolated posts with little actual content. Seems focused on Fegelein a lot. I definitely don't trust this person. Either apathetic town or very cautious scum, and both are bad.
  
  
• champinoman:
  extremely paranoid and aggressive, and somewhat OMGUS-y. Doesn't hesitate to point tiniest details and flail hands in suspicion. Very bombastic words and direct accusations ("are you covering up for your scum buddy", "are you trying to avoid an obvious lynch", "you clearly don't play this for the town"). I'm not sure if that is meant to intimidate or incriminate. I don't think he's "subtly buddying" with Gen_Wolf, but rather finds his attackers scummier. If I'm entirely correct about his paranoia, he shapes up as a "Mad-eye Moody" townie. He finds pretty much everyone scummy which is little better than blind shooting and relying on mathematical odds when it comes to a lynch. In that case I hope in time his paranoia will settle or at least become less diffused. On the other hand, his paranoia could be a scum paranoia of being uncovered, and he's aggressively pushing on people who attack him to bully them into defending themselves so he can step away from the spotlight. He earns town points for calling out on lurkers however and if I have to decide, I'd put him into my town zone.
  
  
• Feel It:
  I've been uncertain about him for a while. He earned scum credit for pulling up the "vote hopping" thing and for immediately polarly changing his attitude a few posts later, but has been lately accumulating town credit by trying to scumhunt outside of Gen_Wolf and broadening his view point. I'm stiiilll not entirely certain, so for now I'm putting him on hold.
  
  
• Fegelein (SE):
  earlier on I had a minor town read on him, but since he's diminished his activity, and his posts all look like haiku statements. He seems pretty certain that James May and Nachomamma are scum, but has offered little insight into why. He's insanely fast to get reads on people, but offers no argumentation on them. Either he already knows everything, or prefers not to say anything, or he's too busy. Upon inspection of his other ongoing games, I think I'm going with the latter, just to give him the benefit of doubt, but that's not to say I think he's town (scum can also be busy). Null.
  
  
• Gen_Wolf (SE):
  my "favourite player" to discuss - my thoughts on him are scattered all over the game, and I don't think I need repeat myself. He's very much stepping on the town/scum line, and I'm going to put him slightly into the town direction for now.
  
  
• Generic:
  almost certainly town. Consistent and insightful analysis and good reaction to pressure from Nacho. Doesn't seem to care about compressing his posts content or rewording them, which is good. Excellent response to paranoid attacks from Champ. I don't think I can find something suspicious.
  
  
• James May:
  he made an odd waltz-in in the middle of the game and got immediately picked on this line: "I'm trying to be a bit more cautious this time", pointed as a heavy scumtell by Fegelein and Champ and apparently Feel It. Afraid to jump to conclusions because last game he was wrong and lost (isn't that what happens everytime when town loses?). He currently has no scumreads on anyone and plans on relying on meta once he has more time. Why meta and not the current game? (I admit I use meta a little, but only to see if a certain Mr. Busy is really busy or just bluffing). I think his cautiousness is more about the (newbie / just-hammered-bad-and-still-sore?) fear of lynching the wrong person rather than fear of getting more involved, and I currently don't think he's as scummy as people make him seem to be. He admits to being busy, but did a little bit of reads, which IMO speaks more good than bad about him and I'm interested to see what more he has to say once he finishes his finals. What I personally don't like is the fact I notice a very subtle reliance on my trust in him and that in post
  #141
  he explained his reads on everybody except on me. It makes me uncomfortable and I feel at a future point he might try to talk me into/lean on me for defence should he become more heavily suspected. For now I'd say he's more likely town than scum, but can easily go the other way around.
  
  
• Nachomamma8 (IC):
  he arrived on stage with thunder and lightning and vanished just as quickly. He shares Antagon's selective reading, who just happens to be my current strongest suspect. Fegelein mentioned he's playing his scum meta, and from the newbie game he referenced I'd say he's right (although I'm still asking what is his town meta and how is it different). He questions a lot and demands excessive explanation, but he himself has provided little of it, best example being post
  #91
  . I'd really like a broader #91-style analysis from him, because I'm not particularly satisfied with his present lack of involvement. I hope it's due to being overburdened with games. In either case, I'm going to go with null.

Well... I really can't sleep... that wasn't very brief was it...

[Miss Stranger]

Feel It: I've been uncertain about him for a while. He earned scum credit for pulling up the "vote hopping" thing and for

immediately polarly changing his attitude

a few posts later, but has been lately accumulating town credit by trying to scumhunt outside of Gen_Wolf and broadening his view point. I'm stiiilll not entirely certain, so for now I'm putting him on hold.

Unless you weren't serious about vote hopping and editing being scummy, this is how.

[Miss Stranger]

I did vote, I think Vel overlooked it. I just PM'd him, no worries.

Got it, thanks.

I missed it for two reasons:
The walls of text - you're going to need to learn to be more succinct. I was going to wait to say something after the game but this is a good opportunity. The other players (and the Mod) get tired of swimming through walls of text.
The vote buried in the post instead of on it's own line - self explanatory (and it's in the rules that votes should be on their own line).

[Miss Stranger]

Ouchies. Well, my bad. I will try to be more concise from now on, and make sure votes are on separate lines. Thanks for the heads up.

[Miss Stranger]

Interesting. I'd like to know as well.

[Miss Stranger]

Okay, everyone is either complaining about my walls o'text or about other people's "active lurking", so what is like, actually expected from me? -_-

[Miss Stranger]

@champinoman:

I suggested nothing of the sort. You don't need to be the obvious lynch candidate to be setting these scenarios up.

I think I misunderstood a figure of speech. In any case, that's not why I set up scenarios, I just analyse to my best. Should the rest of the town think they'll get better odds by eliminating me to narrow down suspects and to confirm my honest point of view, then they'll do so. My scenarios have little to do with who actually gets lynched.

Pure math suggests that if he is town and he gets lynched then we are in a worse position to win than if we had lynched one of the scum. So I dare say that a townie wanting to stay alive is to our benefit. And as Antagon posted more recently, he never said not to lynch him.

I agree, and I also agree with Antagon in the sense it's a null point.

Once again I have had a change of heart on my read of Miss Stranger. I can't help but think that the things that have made her seem scummy can also be explained by considering the fact she is just excited to be playing a new game.

I'm perpetually excited! (...if we exclude histology class, nvm that -_-) I suppose that's also the explanation for your excessive paranoia, right?

[Miss Stranger]

Aww you. I really have to ask post-game what's so glaringly newbie about me. But then again, I've honestly played 3 short games of forum mafia.

[Miss Stranger]

This:

Wagons in RVS are good. Why do you think Gen_Wolf is scum? Why do you think Fegelein is town? By backseat scumhunting he meant this post. Sorry, I overlooked that other post, but it was pretty much self-explanatory. Why do you think this is town frustration and not scum frustration? Fegelein uses IIoA - scummy - but I'm not voting him because of that.

And this:

Spoiler: James May and Gen_Wolf

James May:

Feg, I'm trying to be a bit more cautious this time because the last game i played I jumped the gun on a lynch that costed me the game >_> (was town that game btw) and I don't have solid reads on anyone but the questions was merely out of curiosity to see their reasoning. Better to survey the area from afar (well for me at least since I am trying to stop jumping the bullet for long phases like this :/ Use to playing 48-96 hour day phases and it requires a bit of on your feet kind of thing...)

So people can vote me for not having reads, but James May is immune because he says he had no reads?

Guess I can give out my reads on those who I have a slight feeling on, skimming through this because I have finals on two of my classes this week so I do apologize for not being active.

Miss Stranger: Aside from that minor derp up on the editing part, it seems like your leaning towards town atm, but I feel like you're being insistent on starting a wagon on gen wolf (although I may not be as experienced in this sort of scumreading/hunting as most people here) but we'll see how gen wolf goes on from this point.

Is that a problem? Both town and scum tunnel. Does wanting to start a wagon on Gen_Wolf automatically make her town?

Nacho: Aside from the "backseat scumhunting" that Fegelin pointed out, I can't point out exactly where to place you in atm, leaning slightly towards town maybe.

What do you think about Fegelein's comments that he hasn't

actually

scumhunt but is only asking questions?

Generic: So far providing interesting analysis upon other players on his first few posts, it looks like he's town at the moment but who knows, he could be playing a good scum cover-up, we'll see how it goes from there, as I haven't seen how his playstyle is, might look into previous games to find a good meta on him unless if its his first.

Why do you seem overly paranoid? It's very hard to fake scumhunting, so therefore providing logical analysis is more likely to be town. Anyone who acts town could be, according to your read on Generic, extremely good scum.

Gen wolf: Heh. Nice sarcastic remark in regards to simply lynching Miss Stranger. Not sure where Feel It (Was it Feel It? Might need to look through it again, but I think it was Feel It. if not was was Feglin) is going on with champin "buddying" you just for the compliment on that remark but i see little to no association with buddying/white knighting involving with that little agreement.

So what read did that give you? All you did was say that you thought that Gen_Wolf was not buddying championman. That "read" just seems like a paragraph to say that Gen_Wolf didn't buddy anyone.

James May:

he made an odd waltz-in in the middle of the game and got immediately picked on this line: "I'm trying to be a bit more cautious this time", pointed as a heavy scumtell by Fegelein and Champ and apparently Feel It. Afraid to jump to conclusions because last game he was wrong and lost (isn't that what happens everytime when town loses?). He currently has no scumreads on anyone and plans on relying on meta once he has more time. Why meta and not the current game? (I admit I use meta a little, but only to see if a certain Mr. Busy is really busy or just bluffing). I think his cautiousness is more about the (newbie / just-hammered-bad-and-still-sore?) fear of lynching the wrong person rather than fear of getting more involved, and I currently don't think he's as scummy as people make him seem to be. He admits to being busy, but did a little bit of reads, which IMO speaks more good than bad about him and I'm interested to see what more he has to say once he finishes his finals. What I personally don't like is the fact I notice a very subtle reliance on my trust in him and that in post

141

he explained his reads on everybody except on me. It makes me uncomfortable and I feel at a future point he might try to talk me into/lean on me for defence should he become more heavily suspected. For now I'd say he's more likely town than scum, but can easily go the other way around.

Reason why I'm relying on meta is to get a general idea of everyone that's playing in this game, of course I'm looking into the nulls since I'm uncertain on how their town/scum gameplays are since for me just basing it on the first phase of this game doesn't suffice enough to get solid reads. But once it gets onto the later phases (mainly after Day 2) I can get better info on the players in this current game rather than relying on past games. Luckily, today's my last final so I'll be able to have a bit more free time afterward (still gotta finish up two more classes, yay for summer terms being ridiculously wonky @_@). Also, on post 141, I was more inclined on explaining the players in the null area (with the exception of Generic) and to be quite honest, I haven't spotted on anything really suspecting about you so far in this game.

So you're saying that meta is the main way for you to get solid reads on Day 1?

Gen_Wolf:

Why bother with day 1. Lets just lynch Miss Stranger now and go from there? We are already onto our first scum.

Yeah...um...no.

I hope you realize I wasn't being serious?

I don't see how changing votes in RVS is scummy in any way. Ignoring my obvious joke vote on Gen_Wolf, I simply voted Antagon for starting a wagon on someone who's afk. I don't see how a wagon on an afk person would make them less afk. Game's just started. Sheesh.

And yes, I simply forgot to add my VOTE: tag in my previous post. I thought I could edit instead of doublepost, but apparently I can't. Apologies, rookie mistake. But tell me, Gen_Wolf, what could I possibly hide in my single, straightforward sentence that I would want to edit away? Just asking for your opinion as to why you think is scummy.

Feel It, same question to you. What's exactly wrong with changing an obvious joke vote, during RVS at that, that would make YOU switch vote?

Its a reaction test and it also allows RVS to come to an end. I don't like RVS, the longer it lasts the more crap that gets posted then it gets over analysed. By me changing my vote so early and raising an issue over something as stupid as you editing it allows for you to answer to it and it also gets the game out of RVS by creating suspicions such as the ones we have now.

Why bother with day 1. Lets just lynch Miss Stranger now and go from there? We are already onto our first scum.

Lynching anybody this early would be silly, we need to poke and prod and talk and get reactions, see who seems scummiest before making a decision. Not sure if I should give you benefit of the doubt due to your newness or change my vote now tbh.

Feel it, thank you for the explanation I do understand. I did not really intend to lynch Miss Stranger this early. Firstly, I did it for the reaction to see how she responded. Secondly, I did it to end RVS which I think I achieved.

VOTE: UNVOTE

I suppose you're right. While your behavior and reaction was odd, it's not as alarming as Gene_Wolf suggesting to lynch you already.

Answered above. Don't want to lynch her.

Town points for trying to end RVS. Jumping on him for that obviously non-serious post will not make you look town.

She's fine at L-2.

Antagon is probably Town.

Agreed, Miss Strangers' wish to edit posts, changing votes on a joke bw could be newness or perhaps an early scumtell?

Her wish to edit posts is probably based on the site she comes from which allows that sort of thing.
Changing votes from a joke bandwagon to a serious one is always a good move.

No point in making specific thoughts on comments made at this stage as most will say it was a joke. Best to include it with anything later when it truly begins to matter.

Why are you so worried with how others will perceive you? If it's not a joke, then it will help us get into that stage where things WILL start to matter.

Vote: Generic

I never said I was worried with how people perceive me? I explained why I did it. Why you putting words in my mouth?

Don't like this post from Nacho. Generic's 30 didn't suggest that he was worried about people perceiving him badly. It's just that reads on people during RVS could just be shrugged off as "It's just RVS."

Are you serious? I'm one the more involved posters so far, and retorting my scum claim with an accusation against me only makes you look even worse, look how quickly and desperate you latched on to champinoman backing you up before you accuse me of buddying.

Yes I am very serious. Just because you have more posts does not make you more involved. It could just mean your posting more fluff. And yes, why thank you for making me look good as I did not latch on to Champinoman, he agreed with my post and liked it. Is that a scum tell now?

@Feel It: Please show me where I have "desperately latched on to champinoman"?

Feel It seems slightly overeager to call out Gen_Wolf for his buddying.
Gen_Wolf

was not buddying championman.

Buddying him would involve calling championman town for making that post in the first place.

(snip)

The only thing I ask that as townie players please do not lynch me anytime soon. We have 12 days to lynch someone. Within those 12 days if you still feel the need to lynch me that is mellow but at least take the other 12 days for scum to talk there way into trouble.

(snip)

People jumped on Gen_Wolf for his "fatalistic attitude," but this portion is not alignment-indicative at all. It's not "Please don't lynch me," but "Please don't

quicklynch

me." It's highly detrimental for town to lynch someone when there is still time for discussion, but his comment is null because both town and scum can easily post something like this.

So, reads.
TOWN:
Gen_Wolf

NULL/LEANING TOWN:

NULL:
Everyone else.

NULL/LEANING SCUM:
Fegelein
James May

SCUM:

Summarises his entire activity. That and the fact his posts have been odd and superficial throughout the game, and he's only responded whenever his name was mentioned. I'm not sure if he's scum, busy, or uninvolved, but it's ... suspicious.

[Miss Stranger]

We can get 2 days extension if needed right?

You have 6+ days left, so no. If you can't make a decision in a week another two days isn't going to do anything, crash or no.


-Vel

[Miss Stranger]

3-4 posts or so.

[Miss Stranger]

Aw, the post where Generic voted Antagon is also gone. Anyway, I had pointed out how in his latest post Nachomamma asks James a question but only James. In the same post he quotes champ who accuses him of a link with James. I don't understand.

[Miss Stranger]

No, that was in response to your mentioning the hammer vote. Since the vote is gone, no hammer.

[Miss Stranger]

Oh look, hating on my walls of text again... I'll try to keep this brief then.

What Antagon just did correlates extremely well with what Honest Abel did in Newbie 1344 (I read that to get a grasp of Nacho's scum meta, as Fegelein pointed out on page 2). Anyway, this is Abel's post:

Town doesn't sheep to L-1. The pressure excuse is nonsense. This is the dumbest, most obvious scumtell all game.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Shisou

That's L-2, I believe.

TL;DR: I'm sheeping on the guy with most votes because I suddenly think he's scummy althought not previously suspected by me, and because otherwise I'm getting lynched.
And yes, you guessed it, Abel was scum.

@Feel It:

What's that obsession with "changing votes"? Generic isn't hopping on opportunistic wagons, he's explaining his reasons.

@Generic:

My gut says Antagon is still town, despite everything. Maybe he's just not as glaringly scummy or... no, I don't know. But if he's town, he isn't contributing, so is this a good lynch in either case? Gaaah, decisions X_X Can I have a bit more elaboration on your "head vs gut" theory?

[Miss Stranger]

@Fegelein:

Generic already said what I was about to say. Honest Abel and Antagon are, in my opinion, sharing a tactical mindset.

@Generic:

Erhh no offence taken! ^-^ But don't forget my other question. Do you think an Antagon lynch is justified even if I think he could still be an inactive townie?

@Feel It:

I hate repeating what Generic says, but I have to say it, too. If you want Nacho underpressure, why aren't you voting him? He has 3 votes on him right now, yours would put him at L-1. I really don't understand what you were complaining about. Moreover: please explain your obsession with voting patterns and how Generic's ones make him look scum.

@StubbsKVM:

Welcome! ♥

[Miss Stranger]

@Stubbs:

I love this first post. I'm definitely waiting for him to catch up with reads and share them.

@Generic:

I don't understand the question MS. Why would lynching someone you perceive to be town a good idea?

This is an interesting way to ask the question, but I probably expressed myself poorly. What I was saying was... Assume Antagon is town and doesn't change his gameplay throughout the game. Assume LYLO with him + 2 townies and 2 mafia. It's just going to be very easy to lead the same lynch on him like this one, and game over. If there is a scummy player, I'd rather have them lynched away early on, rather than have them harboured by the mafia as an easy lynch in LYLO.
Also, the only reason my gut thinks Antagon might be town is that he simply *appears* not impressed there's lots of votes on him. However that Honest Abel style hop on Nacho definitely holds my vote on him, gut or not.
What do you mean by this: "Antagon for me answers a lot of questions on players." #265

@Nachomamma:

I *love* the new analysis. Finally Nacho is back and his posts take the shift to active scumhunting and not simply "{quote block} explain this". On his position on champ: I agree that champ's reads in that post leave a lot to be desired. I think in post #204 he ignored Fegelein because he was referring to the two players being voted and being inactive (Nacho and Antagon), who happened to be IC and SE. Also... what does it mean to chainsaw someone? I don't think champ was actively defending Gen_Wolf, but one could say there was a "roundabout" defense. Champ was attacking Gen_Wolf's attackers, and subsequently changed his mind a little on GW and started considering him town. In any case, I'm interested to hear Champ's response to this.

@Feel It:

I don't think Antagon's wagon is losing steam. He still looks like he's going to be lynched. Also, you never answered Generic's question, just sort of said "why does it bother you".


I hope I've not been overly verbose this time.

[Miss Stranger]

@champinoman:

I'm glad to see his paranoia is finally dispersing. These reads are way better than the ones on page 3. (I really should make a table with everyone's reads so we can compare them easily).
I have a question, in regards to Antagon:

The opportunistic jump across onto Nacho at the time looked to me like nothing more than the standard play.

Standard play for what?

Oh, and to add to champino's statement: Antagon has held the same level of involvement pretty much regardless of the number of votes on him. Is it normal for town to be this apathetic before lynch? From what I know, D1 lynches should be at least informative, if not getting us rid of mafia. What information are we going to get from Antagon if he flips town? Sure, we can reinspect D1 and see what he said, knowing he's clear, but would that even get us anywhere? I think a townsided player would try to share as much information as possible to at least guide us a little bit in D2. Antagon's denial of any further information is IMO a new scum read.

@Antagon:

Wait, what? Why did you explicitly say that "Antagon is scummy as fuck and should be lynched" so that you would suddenly change to championman?
As town, the only reason you would suddenly change your reads on a dime is to avoid being accused of tunneling. That is not the case. Before Nacho's long absence, he did not say that I was scum and should be lynched.
Why is Nacho suddenly distancing from my wagon?
Because I'm town and he knows it.
Who else would make a wall post to say "Antagon is scum" and not vote for him? Who would jump to someone completely unrelated? Someone who knows that I will flip town and wants to ensure that he doesn't get credit for my lynch by not being on my wagon. a.k.a. scum.

I think this is a little myopic. Nachomamma was doing ISO's at that point and posting reads one by one. He was focused on you, then suddenly noticed something alarming about champinoman and reacted immediately.

@Feel It:

Okay, I admit I was sort of occupied last few days (boyfriend being home and stuff) so I mostly scanned posts straight in a line, which is why I wasn't quite sure what was going on there. It's pretty obvious however if one reads Feel It's posts in isolation.

Okay then, giving intent to hammer Nacho, I want to see what he has to say.

What are you doing? You've changed your vote a hundred times we had enough pressure to get a real response out of nacho.

Implications everywhere. I'm not voting for him because I have a slight preference for the Antagon lynch, it's not an issue of getting my hands dirty.

I gave intent (which is a lot different than actually hammering him) because I'm also willing to lynch Nacho. Like I said I'd prefer Antagon but Nacho hasn't been very town either.

So basically, while voting Antagon, he threatens to hammer Nacho, gets upset when Generic changes from Nacho to Antagon (but he himself doesn't change) and explains it with preferring Antagon. This is his explanation:

I wasn't going to hammer him, I gave intent because he was gone and I wanted to pressure and draw him out, but then you changed your vote again which made it null. If I had then changed my vote to nacho it would be me losing pressure on the guy I'd prefer lynched (Antagon.)

Um, no, maths says the votes would be the same like in the beginning (3 on each, plus one), except you wouldn't have the hammer, therefore you wouldn't decide the lynch.

I don't think the "talk or die" intimidation explanation clicks quite well. Any sane person who cares about the game would talk long before hammered. If they don't, then they are simply AFK. Besides, you aren't the only person who can potentially hammer Nacho. Further still, if Antagon was a stronger suspect, why the hell are you upset when Generic stacks the vote pile on him? Pressure, right?

I'm not sure if I should see this as subtle opportunism, or as conformism to others' opinion (i.e. they all think Nacho is scummy, hell he has to be). The first is I think null, the second is scummy - the mafia would always want to hide amidst the crowd, and then justify their actions with crowd psychology. Nonetheless, this was murky.

[Miss Stranger]

Oh dear. I just realised Generic said pretty much exactly the same thing as I. I need to read everything before I start posting, and not just ISO's.

Uhh, anyway, currently compiling a reads table, hopefully it'll be up soon enough.

[Miss Stranger]

Here's the table with reads, hopefully everything is correct, please tell me if something is not.



Also, I've asked if I'm allowed to link to google docs publication here. If I'm not, I'll update it with images in thread whenever necessary.

This is perfect as an image Stranger, it's not editable so that's great.

-Vel

[Miss Stranger]

Right-click + view image for full resolution.

[Miss Stranger]

Antagon chose the worst possible time to be away. Please don't hammer him until he makes a final reads post or self-hammers... or the deadline expires. Eh, you got the point <.<
Reads table updated! Right-click and view image for full resolution!

[Miss Stranger]

@Feel It:

Column-A or Row-3 on this deck (see front page). What kind of a question was that?

I sort of expected Antagon to claim some sort of power role and walk away with no information as always. I hope everyone else realises that even if he's actually the bulletproof, he isn't going to make a very good leader later in the game when he's actually needed. Sigh.

I don't think that post will make me retract my vote, in all honesty.

[Miss Stranger]

[Miss Stranger]

Also if Antagon is mafia, by looking at the votes I'd say it's pretty likely that Fegelein is the partner.

[Miss Stranger]

There's more subtle hints, too.

Antagon:
1) Ignoring Fegelein's early town read on him
2) Trying to distance from one another WITHOUT actually voting each other
3) Demanding excessive explanation from Fegelein or about Fegelein
4) Post #248 is quite damning and probably a scumslip
5) Both of them don't hesitate to hop on Nacho's wagon, who is likely very dangerous for them if he's town

Fegelein:
1) Subtle backing for Antagon early in the game #17 #23
2) Ignoring Antagon in his list of reads #71
3) Asking for excessive explanation #175
4) I really don't like #219

[Miss Stranger]

[Miss Stranger]

I sort of expected that, strange as it is. Welcome back.

VOTE: chkflip

Number one candidate for Antagon's partner. Refer to what I said before D1 death scene.

[Miss Stranger]

Generic, I think the Fegel/chk case is much more substantiated than Feel It. While I have reservations about Feel It, Fegelein is glaringly scummy after Antagon was confirmed scum.

[Miss Stranger]

Except Feel It didn't wagon Antagon when he had no other choice, he was the second person to vote him, and didn't change his mind. The fake hammer intent was a stupid way to pressure Nacho into activity, but I'm prone to believe it was simply that - stupid. Not scummy enough.

You however are starting to nitpick his ISO and that's a very classic scourge play. I'm sorry but before you get started on that, I'd like to account for yourself and not sheep Generic. Thank you.

@Nachomamma:

champino thought I was posting less because everyone hated on my walls o'text and that discouraged and intimidated me. In fact, I was preoccupied in real life, so feel free to ignore that point of his. ^^;

[Miss Stranger]

Scourge = scum. DLG slip. :<

[Miss Stranger]

@Generic:

You could say it's my fo..ur..irst game? I've had one as a doc (late replacement, lost), one as a mafia roleblock (lost) and one as a sort of town investigative role (mod-abandoned). Looong time ago. D:

@Nachomamma:

Ask and you shall receive :3

[Miss Stranger]

Um, post #340 was addressed to

@chkflip

if anyone was wondering who is "you".

[Miss Stranger]

Except Feel It didn't wagon Antagon when he had no other choice, he was the second person to vote him, and didn't change his mind. The fake hammer intent was a stupid way to pressure Nacho into activity, but I'm prone to believe it was simply that - stupid. Not scummy enough.

You however are starting to nitpick his ISO and that's a very classic scourge play. I'm sorry but before you get started on that, I'd like to account for yourself and not sheep Generic. Thank you.

There, for reference.

[Miss Stranger]

chkflip, where are you? I heard scummies like being sneaky. Sneaky little hobbitses. Wicked! Tricksy! False!

[Miss Stranger]

Feel It, you are still voting yourself.

[Miss Stranger]

I allowed myself to stalk chkflip's recent posts, it seems he does show some activity in other games. I don't know if I'm allowed this kind of meta, but that once again makes me more the certain of his scumminess.

Can we just lynch him and be done with it? Whatever he says, it's going to be an ISO nitpick on Feel It.

[Miss Stranger]

I'm looking at the timestamps. This isn't inactivity. This is active avoidance.

[Miss Stranger]

There's hardly anything to catch up with. Fegelein's apprentice began his case by openly sheeping Generic's evil read on Feel It, and afterwards started nitpicking his ISO. This is not scumhunting, this is looking for reasons to lynch. Hell I know I might be way too certain about him, and I know I lost my first game by being so, but right now I don't care too much, we can afford 2 mistakes and still win.

[Miss Stranger]

69 and 72 are extremely baseless and complete WIFOM fluff. I'm very confident in my vote and will begin to draw up a case on Feel It when I'm not at work.

This is what I'm talking about. Do we even need to see a case on Feel It? He was the second damn person to vote Antagon, right after I did, and his vote remained solid to the very end of the wagon. Despite the fake hammer bullshit. I don't believe Feel It was bussing.

[Miss Stranger]

I see why my predecessor bailed.

Because he literally had no chance and preferred to engage in other activities rather than waste time and effort to build defence when nobody is going to believe him anyway. That's what you thought, too, right?

Please just hammer chkflip already.

[Miss Stranger]

Okay, so your dying FoS is Feel It. Good to know.

[Miss Stranger]

If you are town, aren't you at least going to provide basic reads on other players? Even the basic format would be sufficient.

Player A - leaning town.
Player B - scummy.
Player C - null.
Player D - town.
Player E - leaning town.

etc.

[Miss Stranger]

Based on his last posts, I'm fairly sure he's mafia. He just wants to end the game.

[Miss Stranger]

Well if you are truly town, then it does speak pretty bad about your level of play, for an SE at that.

[Miss Stranger]

You know very well that even if the entire player list is against you, offering some information before being modconfirmed as innocent would help your faction immensely.

[Miss Stranger]

So analysing every player in the game is IIoA... wow, nice to know.

[Miss Stranger]

I put together the chart

after

I analysed every single player in the game. Seeing how Antagon was in fact mafia, I think I did a pretty good job, thank you very much.

I still half expect chkflip to turn out scum.

[Miss Stranger]

If it's not chkflip, consider looking at Nacho. Nacho had a strong scum read on Antagon but didn't vote him. Other than that... I don't know, possibly Gen_Wolf.

[Miss Stranger]

Back from my vacation. Nice gamethrowing chkflip.

@champinoman

: I sort of expected an NK during the night. As in scum hitting a doctored player.

Here is who I think is probably not mafia:
- Feel It was the second person to vote Antagon and he remained solid on his wagon.
- Nachomamma was hopped onto by Antagon in hopes of mislynch.
- Stubbs is generally feeling town, also third person to vote Antagon and gain momentum on his wagon.
- Generic's hammer was very town.

This leaves Gen_Wolf and champinoman, and I don't think champinoman was bussing Antagon, so I'd personally pick Gen_Wolf.

Scum are obvz no lynching at night so lets no lynch during the day until they make a NK so we can get some info?

Are you serious?

VOTE: Gen_Wolf.

[Miss Stranger]

This is L-2 by the way.

[Miss Stranger]

@champinoman

: I sort of expected

a no-kill

during the night. As in scum hitting a doctored player.

Sorry, just realised I derped in my previous post -_-

[Miss Stranger]

Fair enough. UNVOTE: Gen_Wolf

Still have to hear from Stubbs and Nacho.

[Miss Stranger]

@Champinoman

, the reason I think Stubbs feels town is because I've not seen scummy posts from him but I've seen a few town posts, such as 245, 286, 324, which all feel pretty genuine. On the same line, I don't think James May was too scummy either.

Antagon lynching Nacho-partner while he himself was going to be lynched soon anyway, though? It'd be just extremely poor play, and Antagon has played better scum games. (I meta'd him) Nacho's last posts on D1 all looked pretty good, too. The only thing that bothered me was the fact he wasn't voting Antagon who he described as the best lynch. Whether or not I should weigh this a lot is a different question.

And no, I don't think Antagon was dead man walking when I voted him. Not to mention Feel It wouldn't know if Antagon could or couldn't talk his way out of a lynch, since Feel It had never played any games on Mafiascum or with Antagon. The fake hammer intent was definitely bad-looking, but Feel It didn't vote Nacho afterwards, which means he probably didn't want him lynched, just pressured into play. All in all, I don't find anything about Feel It that's particularly scummy at this point and there are better suspects lying around.

@Generic:

I think mass claim is a good idea. In fact, let's make a tally, shall we?

Champinoman	...
Generic	YES
Gen_Wolf	...
Feel It	...
Miss Stranger	YES
Nachomamma	...
Stubbs	...

[Miss Stranger]

I agree with champinoman. Nacho dooby doo, where are you? We need your help right now.

[Miss Stranger]

We can give reasons and justifying for and against mass claim all we want right now, it doesn't really move the game forward.

@Gen_Wolf:

I still don't understand why Stubbs is so obviously scummy, can you please quote and bold his scumtells? Not liking "when I flip town, then who?" That's exactly how Nacho tried to stall his lynch (as scum) in one of his games I looked at (Newbie 1344, Day 2).

If right now the scum is someone like Nacho or god forbid Generic, he must be laughing himself apart at this moment. ;_;

[Miss Stranger]

I think he's still riding his fame train from his last posts from Day 1. I must admit it's been dissipating for me for a while and I'm leaning back towards my null read.

[Miss Stranger]

Then again, he sings up for like half the ongoing games, so no wonder. Also he's V/LA until 18th and prompted us not to do anything stupid. I'd say we can re-evaluate former reads, but there really isn't much new information because of the damn lack of nightkills.

Spoiler: Meaningless speculation

Albeit, I don't think Jailkeeper has roleblocked the same person twice, otherwise they'd be adamant in lynching that person right now, no?

But seriously, without new information, this might as well be Day 2 with 6 townies and 1 scum. Something needs to happen.

[Miss Stranger]

Exactly, champino, which is why I called it meaningless speculation and which is why I pushed for mass claim for actual information. But, perhaps you're right.

@Gen_Wolf, Generic:

Repeating my request. Can you quote and bold Stubb's scumtells? I somehow don't like his lynch, to be honest. Call it a gut feeling.

[Miss Stranger]

What the hell, Gen_Wolf? Replacing out here but not in your 2 other games, one of which started on 8 July?



VOTE: Gen_Wolf

THIS IS L-1!!

Nacho's V/LA ends today.

[Miss Stranger]

Hi Flay :3
UNVOTE:

Waiting for it.

[Miss Stranger]

Good idea. Let's do that.

[SCUMMIEST] Feel It > Nacho > champino > Stubbs > Generic [TOWNIEST]

Gen_Wolf/Flay already claimed VT.

[Miss Stranger]

I think he meant "prepare to claim in advance instead of going afk and stalling the game".

[Miss Stranger]

We're only asking for claims, Feel It, nothing serious.

[Miss Stranger]

I claim Townie. Hello Nacho. Goodbye Nacho.

VOTE: Nachomamma8

I'm sorry but chances for one of the rest to target Nacho both nights are simply... well, er, astronomical I'd say? He was far from being most obvious town. Not to mention there's more to him than just jailkeeper. This is column A. Great work champinoman.

[Miss Stranger]

... row A*

[Miss Stranger]

I must admit Antagon did hell of a good job leading the village into lynching Fegelein/chkflip. (although they both did pretty good job at helping the lynch)

And well... Fegelein was right about Nacho's scum meta.

[Miss Stranger]

I must say Mr Flay did great work, too, moving the game forward with the mass claim and... stuff... just... great job, overall.

[Miss Stranger]

Of course you did. I was just giving him credit for moving the game forward with it (not for the suggestion, it was already made, but for god knows what reason the rest of the town didn't follow). Gen_Wolf was sadly too... uh, never mind.

[Miss Stranger]

If Nacho is indeed mafia, he should just self-vote. This trolling would be highly unacceptable, he knows at this point as scum he can't win, so it's simply unethical to waste town's time.

It might be just me, but I don't see Feel It trying to NK unsuccessfully Nacho twice? As a roleblocker he'll know it's either the jailkeeper/bulletproof or cop/doctor setup, and neither make sense to fire at the same target unsuccessfully twice.

I can let Nacho convince me of his innocence, but I'm definitely not NL-ing. This farce has to end now.

[Miss Stranger]

My guess is that nobody will die either night. Because I find a two-time roleblocked mafia goon much more likely than roleblocker unsuccessfully blocking and failing to kill Nacho twice. If anyone else had claimed bulletproof, it'd be different. It's just too much, way too much of a coincidence.

I'm sorry I don't believe coincidences.

[Miss Stranger]

@Mod: I request to be replaced.

I'm sorry, guys, there's some personal problems going on and I really can't concentrate on Mafia any more, I'm probably going off-site for a couple weeks or more, because this is just serious and preoccupying my mind.

Good luck and sorry once again!

Thanks Stranger.

-Vel