Mini 1486: Fruit Basket Mafia (Game Over)

[Desperado]

/confirm

[Desperado]

Vote: Formerfish

I hate kids.

[Desperado]

Unvote
Vote: Elyse

Fish doesn't seem worried about how he appears to others, he seems legitimately confused and exasperated by the wagon. And he's engaging people on his wagon individually and asking them to outline their thought process. Elyse's 26 is bad and her 13 looks like scum mimicing sland-town.

[Desperado]

I don't think he's overreacting at all. Which posts look antsy?

You were associating your play with Sland's so that when he flips town other players will instinctively give you towncred. Your post wasn't nearly as effective as his and felt awkward and unnecessary.

[Desperado]

Can you bold the anxiety or something? I'm not seeing it.

And what I'm getting it is you, as scum, saw slandaar, as town, post something self-evident but also entertaining and thought "Oh, I should do that too!" so we got your #13.

[Desperado]

I think you're seeing it because you want to see it.

[Desperado]

UberKang doesn't reference Fish being antsy and BvD's comment seemed more theory based that situation specific.

What would you have done in his situation?

Deleted double post.

[Desperado]

Nothing. I would have ignored the votes since it was obvious there was no reason for them and it's a freaking RVS wagon on page 2.

And oh look what Alexcellent says.

OK. And you're an experienced player. Fish has one on-site completed game. His reaction is a newbtell and nothing more.

[Desperado]

I'm still not fond of Kid A's 56 for some reason, but Im not convinced that he's scum.

Formerfish's 80 brings up a couple solid points, and I do agree that Slandaar hiding his reads is at the least giving an anti-town vibe.

MOD:

this will be my last post before I return from my trip Sunday evening, approximately 36 hours. Just a reminder.

No, there is no reason to out townreads. If one of them starts getting strung up I'm sure he'll take the necessary steps, otherwise outing his reads would just make the scum's NK decision easier

Elyse's #60 is an excellent illustration of why she's scum, for the reasons Fish pointed out just now.

[Desperado]

Oh ok GG is a hydra.

@formerfish
I didn't think ASP should have said anything about the votes against him. I was just checking to see what his response would be when I asked him.

Then why did you form the question accusatorially?

"No comments on the votes on you?" clearly implies that he should have commented already and that it's scummy that he hasn't.

[Desperado]

Desperado coz he's calling it straight. His #32 is pretty much spot on; Formerfish was giving us a reaction, but it wasn't a magical telltale scared-newb-scum reaction. That he calls and pushes Elyse on it strongly (the rest of his page 2 posts) looks town motivated to me. Although I'm not 100% sure as to why he sees her #60 as particularly damning - can you explain this to me please Desperado?

"No comments on the votes on you?" was a leading question no matter what Elyse says, and clearly implied that Simple Plan should have commented on his votes and was scummy for not doing it. Coming directly on the heels of Elyse's push on Fish (for commenting on votes on him) was really jarring and doesn't look like real scumhunting, just busy work.

Ok I'm sorry but how the fuck is "I have a townread on you" dodgy?

For me it was the "good job" comment, as if Stubbs should be elated that you've read him as town + blatant pacification.

[Desperado]

If it was such a leading question, then why didn't I jump on him afterwards? Because it wasn't and I didn't intend to.

You interpret things way out of proportion, Desperado. Saying good job does not mean that Stubbs should be elated. Stop misrepresenting everything I say and warping it into something scummy. Take the tunnel vision glasses off and think simpler.

What does it mean then? Why didn't you address my accusation of pacification?

Spoiler:

Because it's true and you're scum this game

[Desperado]

What does what mean?

And how is giving a townread on someone pacifying them?

What did "good job" mean?

And it's pacification because he had just explained why he thought you were scum. Rather than address his concern you told him you townread him (so shut up and stop talking about why you think I'm scum)

[Desperado]

Slandaar we obviously have different views on the Fish and the reactions it drew. Why wasn't I included in your analysis at all?

[Desperado]

Unvote
Vote: Simple Plan

Not sure why everyone is content to call out how bad Simple's reaction to Slandaar's post was without voting it.

[Desperado]

Replace out is null + VT claim is null = not unvoting.

[Desperado]

Oh haha Radiant...

By Crowley he means me. Hello all! Catching up now. I was made aware I'm sitting on L-1. Please allow me at least a day or two to debate my predecessor's failure.

Kill it! Kill it with fire!

[Desperado]

Your catchup post was even worse. Someone hammer please.

[Desperado]

So is anyone gonna hammer Lucky or what

[Desperado]

Sorry guys... Long story short, with as light a schedule as I took in college, I seriously wasn't expecting to find it this difficult to sign on and post, at least daily if not more, and quite frankly its just been impossible- two days in and already a homework assignment that took me four hours, and that's just one class. Combine that with the urgent need for me to get a job now that my mom is going on leave for surgery, and I'm not going to be able to handle the game at the level I truly want to.

As per the request to claim, I'm Vanilla Town.

MOD

: I'm going to need a replacement, please. This has nothing to do with your game, the setup, any of the players in the game, nor you as a mod, and it was a privilege to play in your game for the time I did. I hope that at a point when I have the time to play to the level I usually am able, I might be privileged to participate in one of your games again; I am truly sorry.

Feel free to hammer whenever

[Desperado]

sigh

Because reaction tests are stupid and Lucky said he read the thread ages ago. Your opportunity to catch him in a lie was long past.

[Desperado]

lol why don't we just deal with it right now?

[Desperado]

This might be a stupid question, but who the fuck is No one? I have been looking for a post telling us that someone had been replaced by No one, but can't find it anywhere. So, WTF mate?

Really?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/memberlist.p ... ile&u=7929
http://forum.mafiascum.net/memberlist.p ... le&u=22273

Yeah, silly me, how could I get confused there?

Because this is a normal game and Jesters aren't allowed.

It's really concerning that you didn't know this considering it was already talked about in thread.

[Desperado]

Votecount #6

Kid A - 3 (pdmedic, A Simple Plan, Buffy VS Dracula)
Formerfish - 1 (Slandaar)
Elyse - 1 (UberKang)
A Simple Plan - 7 (Formerfish, Elyse, Desperado, Kid A, Alexcellent, MnemonicDevice, StubbsKVM)

With

13

alive it's

7

to lynch.

Remaining scum are {pdmedic, Buffy, Kang} and {Elyse, Kid A, Alexcellent, mnemonicdevice)

Based on ASP/Lucky's interactions with others, it's probably not pdmedic (RVS vote + justifying later) or Kid A (59)

Seeing pdmedic's activity starting to pick up a bit and seeing that he's trying, I'm going to go ahead and...
UNVOTE: pdmedic.

Now, as far as my current reads go, I'm getting a town read from BvD, Stubbs, and pdmedic, with weak town reads on Gee Gee and Formerfish. Desperado is also a weak town read.

Kid A is probably my top scum read right now, followed by Slandaar. Retreading things, I don't get a good feeling from Kid A's #30, even though I'm fairly certain it was a joke, and I feel like his play is just... Off, I guess, for lack of a better word. His 121 and 123 seem to just be repetitive to pry at pdmedic to get him active, and im unsure what to make of it beyond nagging for answers. I also notice BvD mentioning him ignoring a question from BvD. I still think being able to discuss people's reads and having a chance to get another perspective on a person's behavior would be beneficial to the town, and refusing to share reads isn't being productive, hence my suspicions about Slandaar.

Elyse is also giving off scum vibes, but I'm unsure there; UberKang is giving off mixed vibes, but if I had to guess, I'd say town. Mnemonic Device is reading very unproductive and suspicious as well. From what I've seen of Alexcellent gives off weak scum, but he needs to get active too.

VOTE: Kid A

I'm betting one buddy in his townreads and one buddy in his nullish reads at the bottom. Uber is probably town, same with mnemonic. Elyse and Alex are the best bets for scum in the bottom paragraph.

Vote: Buffy v Dracula

because it's 50/50 on people off the Lucky wagon and their interactions with Simple Plan were incriminating.

[Desperado]

The dumb reaction test + "I'll deal with you [Desperado] tomorrow" hammer doesn't seem like a scum buddy hammer to me at all. If there was one on/one off then I think the one on was earlier.

[Desperado]

The dumb reaction test + "I'll deal with you [Desperado] tomorrow" hammer doesn't seem like a scum buddy hammer to me at all. If there was one on/one off then I think the one on was earlier.

You want to explain why you answered in his place?

I already did. It was a dumb reaction test that didn't serve any purpose.

[Desperado]

Then I guess that's going to go unexplained

[Desperado]

What is your thoughts on Gee Gee and Fishy?

I have no idea who Gee Gee is and accessing their ISO makes it pretty clear why. They're about as null as null gets--why they haven't been replaced yet is a mystery.

Fish is town for his reaction to the RVS wagon and starting the ASP wagon. There was no reason to buss that early, even with a couple of players voicing displeasure with ASP's play. If anything, UberKang and Elyse are more likely to have been scum distancing then Fish is to be scum bussing.

[Desperado]

Indeed. That makes all three more likely to be scum, honestly. Uber especially comes off even worse, ignoring the initial Sland-Kid A-Alex push to vote Elyse, then distancing by parroting Elyse, then ending up on Elyse at the end of the day.

Unvote
Vote: UberKang

[Desperado]

@Mod: I'm voting UberKang, not Gee Gee

[Desperado]

@Desperado, I suppose I can see how you'd see it that way. I found myself agreeing with some of the points Elyse was raising despite the fact I was voting her. I'd have jumped over to the ASP wagon but you guys had it covered after his 'Slandaar's post was awesome' post.

I'm home early today so I'll update with some actual content then.

Why hasn't this wagon gotten any more votes again? Uber agrees that he's been scummy and then misses the point.

Oh yeah and he promised content on Wednesday and hasn't shown up since.

[Desperado]

Right, and the way I see it is he was scummy as hell. Objectivity is scummy.

[Desperado]

I'd certainly like you to elaborate on how you came to the conclusion that everyone was town D1 except me and Gee Gee

[Desperado]

hm. i'll get to it in a moment and start bringing up quotes and stuff. the short version is that i was looking closely at asp/lucky interactions when i read through the thread, and have reasons to suspect everyone else in the game is town (or at least not scum with asp/lucky). desperado is the exception, mostly because i think the timing of his vote and the way he pushed it looked like a bus.

more when i can be bothered pulling up quotes, probably in the next hour or so.

You think that me openly calling out other people for not voting despite voicing suspicion on ASP was me bussing?

[Desperado]

Sounds like you've already made your mind up. What about Gee Gee?

[Desperado]

There isn't much for me to respond to there. "The way it's written looks odd" doesn't strike me as a reliable scum tell. 226 was referring to Lucky's amished tell, and 228 was referring to his shitty reads post. I was definitely confident, you got that much at least.

Almost all of your reads are based on interactions with ASP. That seems pretty lazy to me, considering how subjective something like "scum-scum interaction" is.

Going back to my original wagon analysis, Uber and Alex/muffin fit as a team as well. I'd be comfortable voting either, but would prefer Kang.

[Desperado]

The difference is that I arrived at my reads on you and Kang independently, and they happen to fit as a team. Virtually all of your reads stem from each player's interaction with ASP/Lucky.

[Desperado]

And my point wasn't the nature of the subjectivity but the quantity of reads and the weakness of those reads. For example, something like "I lean town on X, Y, and Z because of Lucky's Post A" is essentially meaningless. You've committed to nothing and are free to change your opinion at basically any time.

It's like the reverse of what you're accusing me of. Why on earth wouldn't I have been confident at that point? I thought ASP was scum and his replacement only reinforced my read.

[Desperado]

btw, what do you make of UK thinking there's only two scum in this game?

Don't really care.

and who do you think is scum outside of UK and me? (because at least one of these isn't scum)

No one. I'm not going to fabricate a third scum read just to placate you because you have to say you're town. What was the purpose of this question?

The difference is that I arrived at my reads on you and Kang independently

what is your read on me based on?

It's based on your lazy scumhunting and your scum painting. All of your townreads are based on interactions with ASP and your two scum reads are the two odd men out.

You've committed to nothing and are free to change your opinion at basically any time.

i would be free to change any of my reads at any time regardless of what i lean town on. either you think leaning town is itself scummy, or you don't.

Sure but now you have the added benefit of not having to explain why you're backtracking on your earlier read, because there's nothing to backtrack from.

PEdit: Dude, you aren't getting it. I'm not saying that using interactions to get reads is scummy. I'm talking about the specific way you've drawn your reads.

[Desperado]

Oh, HAHAHA, I just went back and checked why you think I fit as scum with ASP.

291

yeah, go ahead and tell me how you arrived at this independently of ASP's interactions.

Because see, that isn't even what I'm saying. I meant I arrived at my scum read on you and Kang independently.

[Desperado]

if you're confident enough that you're not going to look at the possibility that anyone is scum outside of me and UK, then are you willing to 1v1 me?

You're putting a whole lot of words in my mouth. 10v3 start is pretty standard, so why should I have a third scum read again?

[Desperado]

because i'm not scum, and since you've stated you're completely unwilling to give scum reads outside of uk and me (no i'm not putting words in your mouth, you said this), you shouldn't have a problem with being held accountable if you somehow manage to get me lynched.

I did not say that; I said I wasn't willing to

fabricate

a scum read just to placate you. You asked me who was scum outside of the two of you and right now my answer is "no one."

[Desperado]

because i'm not scum, and since you've stated you're completely unwilling to give scum reads outside of uk and me (no i'm not putting words in your mouth, you said this), you shouldn't have a problem with being held accountable if you somehow manage to get me lynched.

I did not say that; I said I wasn't willing to

fabricate

a scum read just to placate you. You asked me who was scum outside of the two of you and right now my answer is "no one."

[Desperado]

in fact, you should be relishing this opportunity because if you actually believe i'm scum, you can only benefit from taking me up on this 1v1. so why not?

This is horseshit, pretty much.

Unvote
Vote: MuffinMan

[Desperado]

Are you asking me to make something up?

[Desperado]

If you can come up with something more compelling than "I'm town" then I might consider the possibility that I was wrong.

But I don't see town goading me into a 1v1 like that. So yeah.

[Desperado]

its desp/muffinman or buffy/formerfish btw

...

Neither of these teams is even remotely likely. Show your work.

[Desperado]

It's a bunch of useless crap in my view. I have no idea what he actually thinks about anyone. Maybe stream of consciousness catchup posts are beyond me?

[Desperado]

I probably didn't. what did it say? oh. yes. I did see that. didn't stick out in my memory. this particular game isn't the only thing bouncing around in my head. that's all I will really say about that.

The mod catching you up on what had happened didn't stick out in your memory after asking someone to catch you up on what had happened?

[Desperado]

I can't seem to lose my scumread on Desperado. I'll hold off on voting until I've caught up better.

The scumread that you've never even voted?

The scumread that you got because I blew up you reaction test on the person I was already voting and openly calling for the hammer on?

Seriously, stop and think about that for a second. Muffin's sitting her accusing me of bussing, and you think I'm scum because I didn't let Lucky respond to your stupid gambit? There was absolutely nothing for me to gain from doing that as Lucky's partner.

Alternatively, I'm town, I was extremely confident that Lucky would flip scum, and I was exasperated but what I deemed to be a transparent reaction test that wouldn't have borne fruit regardless. So I called you out on it and told you to just hammer him instead.

[Desperado]

It. Was. Meaningless.

What was the best case scenario for you there?

He mixes something up and gets hammered anyway?

We all already knew ASP had claimed VT. So either Lucky claims a PR and we lynch him for lying, or he claims VT...and we still lynch him.

It served no purpose other than to needlessly draw out the day even further.

[Desperado]

Okay then. How about we get back to scumhunting. Instead of sitting there doing nothing productive.

What are you talking about? Slandaar and muffin are sorting each other, why are you trying to stop that?

[Desperado]

If you like your Slandaar vote, why did you butt in and stop him from interacting with someone?

One would think if you really thought Slandaar was scum you'd be interested in obtaining as many scumSland interactions as possible.

[Desperado]

as a side note, desp suggesting that UK and I are a team shows some cognitive dissonance unless he believes that UK was simply faking when he thought there were only two scum in this game.

I don't typically trust what my scumreads say.

[Desperado]

in order for desperado to believe that i'm scum with UK, he must believe that UK is faking it, or it makes no sense.

Am I voting UK for saying there are two scum left?

No.

[Desperado]

I don't have any thoughts. I don't care about a throwaway comment that is laden with WIFOM.

Why are you so interested in it?

[Desperado]

Unvote
Vote: don_johnson

[Desperado]

And when he flips scum muffin and buffy are confirmed town.

[Desperado]

So was your hop onto the Buffy wagon.

[Desperado]

Votecount:
Buffy VS Dracula - 1 (Elyse)
don_johnson - 1 (UberKang)
MnemonicDevice - 2 (Buffy VS Dracula, FormerFish)
Slandaar - 1 (mnemonicdevice)
Desperado - 2 (zMuffinMan, Kid A)
zMuffinMan - 1 (Desperado)
With 12 alive it's 7 to lynch.

The day comes to a close on

September 17th

at

noon

.

Searching for a replacement for Uberkang, sadly.

So why did you pick the Buffy wagon? Literally every vote was on the table for you. Your vote implies that Buffy is your strongest scum read but your words say otherwise. And "somewhat agreeing" with muffin and then voting someone he explicitly called town is almost exactly how ASP got caught.

[Desperado]

When you voted Buffy he had 1 vote. Two wagons have 2 and several other players have 1. You could have chosen anyone to vote and compromise on, and you chose Buffy.

There is no reason for you to be compromising right now, and your choice of compromise doesn't make sense given the current game state.

[Desperado]

Also, your vote on Buffy is doing nothing to prevent a NL. In fact, putting a third player to L-5 makes a NL an even more likely prospect.

[Desperado]

don't really get why desp jumped off the BvD wagon. in fact, there is no real explanation.

I got more interested in something else.

thought BvD had two votes on them. my bad. if you would rather I vote someone else, let me know who and why. why is there no reason for me to be compromising? ok. I will try it your way.

i'm slowly parsing the latest posts right now, but dj's vote on bvd is the 4th vote, so desp's #530 is wrong.

Yeah I was wrong here. Luckily don tried to suggest we lynch the cop inno, which is so outrageously dumb that it couldn't have come from a scum mindset.

I'm getting a gut scum read from Des, mainly because his top scum list are against my town read list. I'll investigate this more when I have time tomorrow.

Well I obviously don't think Buffy is scum any more. Then muffin fake-raged in a really townie way. At this moment in time I think the remaining scum are in {fish, Viera, Kid A}.

Why are you so interested in it?

i'm interested in

your thoughts

on it because the three options i see are that he's scum faking it for some reason, or he's scum who slipped, or he's town who derped. in the first option, i'd assume you have some reason you think he's faking it (you claim WIFOM apparently). in the second and third options, it makes no sense to think i'm scum with him. this may be totally irrelevant now though because you're apparently changed your mind about it with the dj vote.

And Peabody's claim makes it even more irrelevant.

And when he flips scum muffin and buffy are confirmed town.

i can somewhat understand the bvd thing, but how does what dj said in any way relate to me?

Your interaction just then was not scum-scum...I don't see scumdon erroneously "agreeing" with scummuffin and then voting one of your townreads.

Okay guys. Let's shake things up. We aren't lynching Buffy today.

Why?

You'll be happy to know that I'm your

friendly neighborhood cop

, and I'm pretty confident it's the right choice to claim here. Buffy vs Drac was my innocent result for the night. *Snips the noose around BvD's neck from the gallows*.

Don't believe me? How about you read my predecessor's post who didn't support the BvD wagon?

I'm fairly confident this poor townshydra was going to be lynched due to deadline panic. Which is why I needed to claim now. I won't be able to post again until this afternoon at least.

This makes a lot of sense actually. Explains Uber's weird reaction to my FOS earlier.

Unvote
Vote: Kid A

[Desperado]

No we're not.

[Desperado]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Desperado

Alright so at this point, Slandaar, Desperado, Kid A, and UberKang are my strongest townreads. I'm getting a townfeel from pdmedic too at this point.

The last time you mentioned me was to cheerlead me in 533.

What's up?

[Desperado]

Can you show your work please?

[Desperado]

Quote my abysmal reasoning and me being concerned with my appearance.

[Desperado]

Mmkay. Who's the third scum?

[Desperado]

@ Fish: if you really think that then I suggest you start giving out final reads and hunt some scum. Who are the scum pushing your lynch?

[Desperado]

Unvote
Vote: Formerfish

I expect him to flip town.

[Desperado]

I just want to play nice normal games ugh.

Buffy is scum I assume based on that as clearly they were the cookie jar and are coloured as red (scum).

Saying that I don't really understand why he would claim they are town yesterday. And then it doesn't make sense for scum to kill him when hes wrong.

I also do not understand how this setup passed its review for normalcy.

Anyways;

[*]Roles must use standard names, and Role PMs should not contain flavor.

@Mod:

Please clarify what Peabody flipped.

You can't be serious.

[Desperado]

i think it was another nk

Why assume no kill when we had a claimed cop live through the night?

[Desperado]

You can't be serious.

About which part in particular?

About the part where you thought the kill was legit and it somehow meant BvD was scum.

@muffin: I disagree completely. Kid A was obviously joking and slandaar was obviously taking it seriously and his confusion does not read like town trying to figure something out.

Why did you decide to stay in the game?

Vote: Kid A

^Dude is still trying to scumpaint Peabody and needs to die.

Mod: V/LA from 9/20-9/23

[Desperado]

I'm glad you didn't, fwiw.

[Desperado]

If you guys had been paying attention to the flips you would understand that Peabody's Imaginary Friend (not a real player!) flipping in

white

, just as the Jester had D2, was a joke and meant that no one had died. Or you could have seen that we had 12 players yesterday, lynched someone, and now have 11 players.

[Desperado]

So Formerfish you don't like that I posted a confirm and apologized that it took me a couple of days to do so do to being out of town. Not exactly sure what you want me to say in that situation and you trying to find something in a new player who is still getting his feet wet in this game and saying you generally dislike people who do that seems kinda short sighted to me.

Well I could make a proper case but meh.

ASP made the exact same argument but Medic only 'argued' with Fish about it which is bad due to obviously as scum he would want to get the town off him but not care so much about his buddies.

This didn't work out the last time you didn't have the motivation to produce an actual case. Step it up?

Not voting Viera because 732-737 looks like genuine thought process, not acting.

Hated don's jump on to the wagon + continuation, and hated Elyse saying she'd be good with lynching mnem/me and then voting VA because....??? Slandaar said to? I'm not really sure. Given Kid A's whack DJ case I could see a Kid A/Elyse team. And re-reading Elyse's ISO reminded me how often she pinged scum early on. And her ASP vote looks busstastic to me.

[Desperado]

Hey Elyse are you going to explain why you voted VA originally or just fencesit on something that happened afterwards?

[Desperado]

Who am I tunneling?

[Desperado]

And are you basically saying you voted VA because PoE? Where do Stubbs and don fit into that? Why is Kid A town?

[Desperado]

You want to talk about tunneling, and then say Stubbbs had some good content? He hasn't done jack shit since D1 but scumread me because I didn't let Lucky respond to his reaction test.

Why did scumVA flake and then come back?

[Desperado]

I expect you'll include an analysis of my play from hells bottom as well as switch mafia and how they are reflected here, yeah?

[Desperado]

No. I have a life.

I'm not basing my case entirely off of meta either. It's just support.

It's just support but it was the first thing you thought to mention when you previewed your case?

[Desperado]

I found his reaction test (which you ruined) very town-motivated.

And why would town VA flake and come back?

I asked what content Stubbs has given since D1. Why did you tell me about something he did D1?

Answering a question with a question is totally awesome. The point of the question was that VA was clearly active in other games during the period where she flaked, and you think she is scum, so I want to know why you think she did that as scum considering she would obviously be aware that flaking and coming back would not look good. I mean your whole case on her is that she was absent, as far as I can tell.

[Desperado]

So why did I blow up Stubbs' supertown reaction test if I was distancing?

[Desperado]

1. His attempt to paint me as scummy for imitating Slandaar's post remains god-awful and completely below his standard. He's reaching for things desperately there.

Wow I was reaching on page one? Shocking. And you can't say something like "completely below his standard" without actually explaining what my standard is.

Here he jumps on a question I asked to ASP, which stopped my interrogation of ASP and put the focus on me instead.

No shit. You were my scumread and you approached someone else scummily.

Easy bus. He knows there is support for the wagon and plops a vote on to look town.

This isn't even scumhunting, it's narrative building. Don't you remember being one of the people who supported the wagon without voting just before that? What was your reaction again?

Yeah ff you're so right saying "Yay for Slandaar" should make me obvtown.

I was beginning to doubt my read. That's when I usually ask others for their opinion.
You are still far from obvtown.

What? Formerfish said that saying "Yay for Slandaar" is me trying to look town, so I was being facetious in my response to him. I don't get your response here.

P-edit:
UNVOTE:
VOTE: A Simple Plan

This is true. I was waiting for a response from him but extra pressure won't hurt.

So yeah, I saw some support and threw a vote down to get out in front--I guess that could be scummy if you squint really hard. But you supported it and it took me talking you into it to vote him--I'd argue that's even scummier.

4. He ruined Stubbs' reaction test for no good reason. I thought that was very town of Stubbs and seeing as I didn't pick up on ASP's claim either, it was legitimate.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

5. His insistence on Fish town seemed like he was just going for towncred. Earlier he said "FF's reaction is a newbtell, nothing more." Later he calls him town for it.

Yup. I don't have a perfect memory and my evolving townread on Fish as the game progressed colored my interpretation of his early play.

6. He refuses to give another scumread outside of Muffin and UK even though he's mentioned me as scum for a while. I don't really understand that at all.

Why is this is present tense like it's still factual? I don't even see how this point is the least bit relevant anymore.

7. His votes on Kid A are really bad.

Brilliant analysis.

I get that you're sick and all but this case is whack as fuck. It's lazy and it brings up points that aren't relevant to the gamestate (like #6, which fails to take into account Peabody's claim and how my reads have completed changed since then while simultaneously presenting it as current).

@ VA: What happened to obvscum don_johnson? Or your peabody suspicion? Or your call to look into Elyse/Slandaar that was never followed up on? PS do you normally sheep people you think are suspicious?

[Desperado]

It's wrong? It isn't really an accusation, it's just your interpretation of events. You thought it was over the top, I was exasperated by the protracted D1 and wanted Lucky dead. Pretty sure I said as much at the time as well.

[Desperado]

Oh yeah-- hi TSO. What do you think about this game?

Elyse, why make a long drawn-out case against Desp if you're just going to vote for VA?

Because I don't think she actually believes in her case on me. Mainly because it hinges on me being "competent" and not meeting her expectations when a) we've only played two games together, one of which I was scum (and highly competent!) and the other in which I was town (not nearly as competent!) And then she takes this premise (Desperado is generally competent, he is not playing competently, ergo he is scum) and it somehow makes sense in her head even though it really shouldn't given her experience with me. Particularly, she thinks I blatantly defended my scumpal ASP (rather than just pursuing an independent read) and then followed that up by going overboard with distancing when his lynch was imminent.

Recap: Elyse has first hand experience of my "competency" as scum, yet here she believes I am scum because I am playing "incompetently." It's whack, bunkum, BS, whatever you want to call it--the case blows and she isn't going to vote it because it isn't genuine.

@Muffin: I don't see you doing a whole lot to help my wagon gain any of that traction. Unless that limp wristed "I agree with the rest of her points" was your idea of pushing?

[Desperado]

@Buffy
Because everyone was hounding me to make a case.

@Desp
You're competency is a small part of the case. Also I found you more competent as town sooo

I'm not going to argue semantics with you--I think my competency (or lack thereof IYO) is pretty central to your case.

And as town I participated in a mislynch on mvmafia (town) and pushed so hard on Rach (town) that she got lynched after I got NKed N2.

This is why I said something about you actually looking at our meta together because it's pretty clear you don't know what you're talking about.

[Desperado]

It wasn't out of the blue. I don't think Sland is scum either but "he made a great case on someone who flipped scum" is not a real reason why.

What's the point? Towncred--cutting a weak link--he didn't know a wagon would take off--he planned on starting the wagon and then dismantling it but misjudged it. Do I need to go on?

[Desperado]

I already compromised on town at the deadline once, might as well go for two.

Vote: VA

[Desperado]

Vote: VA

[Desperado]

tl;dr slandaar's my partner and he sucks at mafia

[Desperado]

Guys stop bickering and help me lynch obv-scum Desperado.

And I say no to massclaim right now.

Vote: Elyse

There's no downside to claiming with only one scum left. Here I'll start - VT.

Popcorn to Elyse!

[Desperado]

Also if you honestly, legitimately think I bussed my first partner and then avoided lynching my traitor until I couldn't anymore

and then said I expected him to flip town

then you are out of your damn mind.

Elyse why didn't you ever follow up on me destroying your meta on me? Your case is literally "Desperado is competent and his pushes on me weren't so he's scum" when the only meta you have on me as being competent is as scum. When I brought this up last time you just brushed it off, which I took to mean you were conceding the point--clearly you aren't. So what's up?

[Desperado]

I don't need anyone's approval to do anything.
Why wouldn't I do that as town?
How am I missrepping it?

Your scum tunnels are so transparent, jesus.

[Desperado]

Elyse and I have played together twice.

In Hell's Bottom I was scum and she was town. By N3 I was a universal townread despite pushing two town lynches, and then I got copped and lynched D3. My team endgamed Elyse the next day.

In Switch Mafia I was town and she was scum. She killed me N2 after I pushed a town lynch D1 and then avoided participating in her tunnel on the SK all of day two. And I pushed a lynch on Rach (also town) so hard D2 that she got lynched after I got killed. At no point did I ever suspect her or her partner.

Elyse has somehow concluded that I am a competent player and that, because I am not playing competently in this game, I am scum. It is total and complete bullshit and she knows it.

[Desperado]

Competency has everything to do with accuracy of reads. And I asked you to actually, you know, show some examples of my competent town pushes and incompetent scum pushes, but you refused to do it. So...?

There are 9 alive and a 13 player game didn't start with 4 scum. There is on downside into locking the remaining scum into a claim now with 3 MLs available.

That doesn't answer why I wouldn't WIFOM as town.

[Desperado]

There is zero motivation for me to kill Slandaar last night since he townread me to the moon.

Literally you doing what you just accused me of being scummy for doing.

[Desperado]

Wow. So much less vague.

Seriously. There wasn't a "wagon" on me. Just Desperado.

And his vote was bad OMGUS.

What are you even doing?

Oh really? I thought part of your case was that I wouldn't give you up as a scumread to Muffin even though I'd been on you all game?

um... there are a lot of things wrong with this statement. the most obvious being that, assuming you're scum, you probably wouldn't have known VA was the traitor.

No. I'm with DJ in that I'm relatively sure VA had already been recruited, most likely N1.

Dj is town as fuck on this page also, so there's that

[Desperado]

@ DJ: Justify how KidA makes sense as a partner with ASP/Lucky and pdmedic/VA.

[Desperado]

I don't think mnem is scum but at this stage of the game I also don't intend to be very picky. I looked at his ISO quickly for a claim and didn't see one--I'd like to now.

[Desperado]

Elyse is the last scum.

[Desperado]

Unvote
Vote: mnemonicdevice

[Desperado]

Mafia topic was unused.

You don't say.

[Desperado]

yeah

[Desperado]

So... This game was terrible for me. I didn't realize i was scum, so my vote day 1 was honest. Night 1 I also didn't know. Day 2 I re-read and realized I was scum.... then night 2 I got blocked or whatever. Night three I killed someone. I didn't realize that I had recruited VA.

Dude, if you're going to play here you REALLY need to be aware of your role PM. Like, it's the #1 rule.