Ikaruga Mafia (Game Over!)

[mastin2]

Yo, Bulb. Go bug the administration about our hydra. Still not working.

#first
hi sakura help us find an avatar

#second
VOTE: Natirasha
/inb4

Probably town.

VOTE: Natirasha
Poor predictable Bart...

VOTE: Sakki

Hey guys!! This game is going to be a huge clusterfuck, but it's going to be great as well.
VOTE: TMCT
What up.

Likely town.

ALL THE PEOPLE
THAT I DON'T KNOW
ARGHHHH
VOTE: NACHO

Could be scum.

The most curious thing is scum.

Vote: TMCT

Agreed. (Also, Zed's town.)

VOTE: The Most Curious Thing.
This better count.

[mastin2]

Mastin's scum.

VOTE: TheNecro

Nah, but you very well may be.

VOTE: Saki

Probably town.

...Likely very wrong town, but still probably town.

[mastin2]

Sure can!

VOTE: Xayzeck.

[mastin2]

(Though that'd make SSK prob-town.)

[mastin2]

You know there's this thing you can do during the Day when you want to kill someone.

Thus my vote. (Things'll get less confusing when the admins stop slacking off when it comes to our account.)

Oh, and still not buyin' you being town, btw. Just thought I'd let you know.

[mastin2]

Please keep me updated on your read of me at the end of each of your posts.

'kk.

I still think TMCT is likely-scum.

[mastin2]

Cockiness I expect. Sloppiness? Not so much. I'm ashamed of your play this game.

(Psst. My scumplay is one of the least-sloppy on the site; it's ridiculously tight.)

I believe you're town tmct! They just don't know you!

This is true, so I guess read's a bit weaker than if I knew the player.

Also, SSK's probably town.
(Probably.)

lets policy lynch aegor instead
VOTE: aegor

Did I call this slot town already?
It's totally town.

In other news, our vote is now serious.

Now would probably be a bad time to mention that you were a "hmmmm" read that I ultimately decided was more null than scum but who was

this

close to being in the 'likely scum' list I posted.
(A read which hasn't changed.)

I still think TMCT is a scum-candidate, albeit not as strongly.

[mastin2]

D'oh.

Cockiness I expect. Sloppiness? Not so much. I'm ashamed of your play this game.

(Psst. My scumplay is one of the least-sloppy on the site; it's ridiculously tight.)

I believe you're town tmct! They just don't know you!

This is true, so I guess read's a bit weaker than if I knew the player.

Also, SSK's probably town.
(Probably.)

lets policy lynch aegor instead
VOTE: aegor

Did I call this slot town already?
It's totally town.

In other news, our vote is now serious.

Now would probably be a bad time to mention that you were a "hmmmm" read that I ultimately decided was more null than scum but who was

this

close to being in the 'likely scum' list I posted.
(A read which hasn't changed.)

Much better.

I still think TMCT is a scum-candidate, albeit not as strongly.

[mastin2]

And SSK is defo on Mastin's radar.

Yes he was, no he isn't. He's prob-town.

I am gonna say that Xay is an easy lynch. He's getting better, but he's not on the same level as mastin yet. And mastin knows that.

(Psst. Another aspect of my scum meta is that I'm ridiculously fond of white knighting.)

Oh, and I'm kinda considering moving my vote onto Jordan. TMCT's still a scum candidate, albeit not as strongly.

[mastin2]

Can I do a readslist?

I kinda wanna do a readslist.

7. Zdenek
2. Doublade (Marquis/Caledfwitch)
6. Spring Starflower (Metal Sonic/Sakura Hana)
3. Saki
4. ZZZX
14. MafiaSSK
15. Natirasha
16. Talah
5. PeregrineV
12. Nachomamma8 (ftr, I'm probably gonna assign a "for all of day one, town no matter what" read to Nacho just 'cuz I can)
22. RachMarie (probably town anyway)
13. TSO (also likely town anyway)
10. Dry-fit (and probably town-I'll-misread-as-scum)
8. TiphaineDeath
21. Aegor
9. Sharpest-knife-on-tree
19. Fear (Yessiree/Emogirl123)
11. The Most Curious Thing
20. Jordan_Downey (Jingle/Aphix)
17. Xayzeck


1. Shiny Hydreigon (Wisdom/Notscience/Ms Marangal)
^No posts yet and no read. (Gun to head, town.)

Obv list is not solidified. But rough sketch says this holds.

[mastin2]

Oh, and
VOTE: Jordan_Downey.

Now

we're omgusing.

[mastin2]

Oops.
Uh.

TMCT's still a scum candidate, but far from #1.

[mastin2]

i strongly dont trust slots who make readslists at page 4

You're right.

I shoulda made it on page two.
My b.

[mastin2]

how do you manage to fuck up these quote tags mastin?

Issue on my end that playing from home produces. I could fix it, but I'm too lazy to bother, since I can generally remember to manually fix the quotes and fixing the tags is less work overall than fixing the thing causing the broken quotes in the first place.

Oh. And TMCT's still a scum candidate, but far from #1.

[mastin2]

i'm quite liking the idea of mastin and tmct being scum together

Does not compute.
(That said, Anti and I are both thinking Xayzeck could be town.
In fact, his string of posting right there makes me pretty dang certain of it.)

And had a 'one raised eyebrow' read on mastin primarily for not understanding/agreeing with the early reads, then Anti clarified that they're a hydra. So yeah leaning scum until there's a reason not to.

So.
I'm not sure I'm understanding this correctly.
It's fully possible I'm reading it the wrong way.

But if I'm not misreading this.
If I'm not misunderstanding this.

Talah's actually scum this game, for the very same reason he called me scum in 172.

Oh. And TMCT is still a bit of a minor scumread.

[mastin2]

Is this typical town-Mastin behavior?

The only thing typical about town-Mastin behavior is that there is nothing typical about Mastin's behavior as town.

(ZX is hilariously town, btw.)

TMCT is slightly more scum than he was before.

[mastin2]

(Yep, just confirmed. Anti's take on Xayzeck strongly implied townread.
Speaking of reads, Anti called ZX town even stronger than I did, soyeah, we agree there.
He's got a read on SKOT, too; not sure I should share that one, though. SKOT is an ambivalent read of mine.)

[mastin2]

no don't sugarcoat what i said
i said he was clueless. and it was mostly based on Jordan's whiteknighting.

Cluelessness (especially to being WKed) implies town, Anti.

[mastin2]

Sure thing, Nat!

also the way TMCT hopped onto my wagon, being all awkward and RVS-toney and what not bugs me too

Seemed like a good point.

Anyone else you want to inconsistently tie me with?

Rubbed me the wrong way.

I never said I had a meta basis for my read on TMCT.

TMCT no longer had a trusted-player defending his actions as town, either. Put together with my original scumread, and you get my current read.

TMCT is slightly more scum than he was before. (Not strongly more because these aren't exactly rock-solid thingies.)

[mastin2]

And I've just started reading, so has it been mentioned that the number of light and dark players being exactly equal by chance seems very unprobable?

Improbable, yes, but happened all the same. If anyone submitted a polarity and got back a different result from what they submitted, I think we'd have heard of it by now. Thus, no polarity alterations happened, and thus, all players made their choices which just so happened to be an exact 50/50 split.

[mastin2]

Can you explain your townread on mastin please?

A much, much, much better question would be:
Why aren't

you

townreading me?

Xayzeck seems ridiculously obvtown to me.

Ehh, not as scum as Anti is saying, but his posting IS alternating massively between "dear god, this can't be anything but town" and "my god, lynch this scumbag" all the while never leaving the land of derp. (Which makes my take on it personally be more towards the town half even though his most recent posting is in the latter category.)

Yeah I thought her assessment and immediate read change was weird too. Especially considering mastin was indeed scum in that game.

Precisely my point.
In that game, I scumread you. You called me out on it. "Mastin would NEVER scumread me if she was town so early. Least of all considering how well we work together." You later went on in the dead QT to talk about how you think you can read me accurately in future games, and I even agreed it was distinctly possible.

In this game, you scumread me. And I'm calling you out on it--I don't think you would be scumreading me if you were town, least of all considering how well we work together and how you fancy yourself able to read me. Yet I'm town and you're pushing the idea I'm not.

[mastin2]

(No, voting me is not inherently a scumtell.
Yes,

talah

voting me is a scumtell.
It's not some silly omgus. It's got history backing it.)

[mastin2]

mastin I *knew* that I could get a good read on you based on your entrance. Your town and scum entrances are

vastly

different even though you don't seem aware of the differences.

(For the record, I think this is true of talah, too. Compare talah's entrance this game to other town games.)

A big ping was immediately differing reads. I don't think you put down more than two or three insta-reads which you actually have any meat behind. In the last game we played together where we hydra'd, I understood your reads *immediately*. I expected you to enter the thread with either slight disdain for my aggression or a hearty 'hullo' and you've done neither.

You've not tried to connect with me; not tried to *get* a read on me - you've simply said I'm scum and voted me.

In particular, compare that to this.

So yeah leaning scum until there's a reason not to.

(Which is super interesting considering you've just voted someone else even though you think I'm

definitely

scum).

(Which talah is also guilty of doing.)

So I feel like at least we have an amiable connection to the point where if mastin's town, I'd like to work with her, and I'd think that she'd be far more cautious and wanting to determine my alignment rather than just dropping a vote on me and then telling me I know virtually nothing about her.

Mokay. I'm actually happy to let mastin do her thing for the remainder of the day, and interact as necessary (or as prompted by her).

Probably more relevant ones if I dug deeper (this is a multitasking lazily-done search), but it conveys the idea.

Talah as town I was expecting to be working with me. Not against me.

[mastin2]

Anyway if you're town all you would need to do is be the honest-mastin that exists in your towngames.

So why haven't you seen it?

SSK did.

Like I said, I'd absolutely LOVE to be wrong about this, but your attitude here just isn't what I'd expect from a town-you, given that this is the town-me you've seen before.

[mastin2]

How come Anti and Mastin are on their mains instead of their hydra it is kinda confusing

Because Flay's a slacker. If it bothers you, go bug him. (The more, the merrier.)

you guys should really have posted from the hydra

Believe me.
We want to.
At least, I do.

How can I troll from my main?

(Okay, easily, but how can I do

hydra

trolling without the dang hydra? )

you sure like and dislike a lot fast Saki... keeping an eye on you...

Holy hell, you're actually scum.

(Also, Saki's hilariously obvious town.)

[mastin2]

(Whoops. Forgot. Sorry.)
TWCT is still a decent (but not strong) scum candidate.

[mastin2]

Happy scumday, talah.
(Doublade is also hilariously town, btw.)

VOTE: Dry-fit

You know, normally, I'm the one pushing for a Dry-fit lynch. (Granted, normally, Dry-fit has been town when I've done so. ) This game, I can see the reasoning, but I don't really feel like it's valid for some reason.

1. Shiny Hydreigon (Wisdom/Notscience/Ms Marangal)
^No posts yet and no read. (Gun to head, town.)

why?
VOTE: Jordan

Well, for posts like this. I'm a psychic. I can predict the future and tell you're going to make town posts like this before you've actually made 'em!

[mastin2]

but i've never seen it so is mastin's scumgame as confident as her towngame?

In general, cyclical between being more and being less, depending on the towngame being waffly or being arrogant. Overall, very slight lean towards not only yes, but being moreso than my towngame. I have difficulty faking waffling as scum.

if mastin's one of those people who is virtually indistinguishable i'm probably just going to stop reading her posts entirely.

I'm not. It's possible to read me. You just need to be looking for the right things. GreyICE kinda described this in his MD post where he ranted about meta, and that's the most succinct way of describing it. Try and use a tell on me, you'll fail 95% of the time. You can read me quite easily by simply

looking

at me, and realizing what I'm doing.

The necro wagon in general is bad.

Yeah, pretty much, but I'll have to check the full list of names there to see for sure. It's certainly not going to be all-scum or even mostly-scum, aside from a scumteam that

really

wants me dead and is taking that big of a risk. (And big as my ego may be, it's not

that

large. )

[mastin2]

Field Polarity:

Neutral

Vote Count

Shiny Hydreigon (1): Fear
Doublade (0):
Saki (2): ZZZX, Dry-fit
ZZZX (0):
PeregrineV (0):
Spring Starflower (0):
Zdenek (0):
TiphaineDeath (1): Sharpest-knife-on-tree
Sharpest-knife-on-tree (0):
Dry-fit (3): Saki, Aegor, Doublade
The Most Curious Thing (2): TiphaineDeath, PeregrineV
Nachomamma8 (0):
TSO (0):
MafiaSSK (0):
Natirasha (1): MafiaSSK
Talah (0):
Xayzeck (4): The Most Curious Thing, Natirasha, Zdenek, TheNecromancers
TheNecromancers (4): Jordan_Downey, Talah, Spring Starflower, Xayzeck
Fear (0):
Jordan_Downey (1): Shiny Hydregeion
Aegor (0):
RachMarie (0):
Not Voting (3): Nachomamma8, TSO, RachMarie

It is day 1. With 22 alive, it takes 12 to lynch. Day ends on Sunday, June 15 at 2:00am EST. Countdown: (expired on 2014-06-15 02:00:00).

Hmm, smaller than I thought. There's probably names that have supported it but aren't currently voting; I'll take a look at those as well. Butyeah, off of this,
Jordan still looks like scum.
I explained why talah looks like scum.
Xayzeck on my half looks to be more likely town right now, so I'mma go hydra dis if Anti's still scumreading him.
VOTE: Jordan_Downey.

[mastin2]

You know, normally, I'm the one pushing for a Dry-fit lynch. (Granted, normally, Dry-fit has been town when I've done so. ) This game, I can see the reasoning, but I don't really feel like it's valid for some reason.

Putting aside the absurdity of factoring your nebulous feelings into my thought process, how is this, if anything, not an argument for lynching Dry-Fit, given your past record?

Simple, really.

Dry-fit's posting looked bad to me. I saw it being bad. Others have said it was bad, and me having seen it having been bad, I see where they're coming from. But because previous instances of this have been basically 100% Dry-fit-was-actually-town from me, I don't feel like he's actually scum in spite of the objectively scummy stuff.

VOTE: Necromancers
Can you guys not have five more pages every time I look at the thread.

Is complaining about the thread a universal scumread, or is it specific to you?

(PV's town, btw.)

I kinda need to narrow down the scumz that're bouncing around in my head (and Anti's), but that'll probs have to wait for a lil' bit. Thinking after a full synch-up and everyone's had more time to check in and process stuff. (So probably ~3 days.)

[mastin2]

Currently spring starflower sheeping of necro concerns me. Necro lack of response to it seems to me because it'd be detrimental to bring it up and either way I'm sure they enjoying sheeple as long as they are being followed.

Why would I comment on a townread of mine sheeping me on going after a scumread of mine like that? It'd only discourage me from getting info from others and from, y'know, the scumread, for the sake of a maybe-info (but-most-likely-nothing) on a player I already have plenty of info on.

[mastin2]

See like why is this a wagon.

Because that's a junky null-at-best post?

[mastin2]

Talah where is your hyper puppy like posting? I am beginning to worry about you.

^That.

jordan wagon built from random vote mastin posturing that i didn't read and sheep vote of someone who i'm willing to bet also didn't read it is no.

Well, apparently you REALLY didn't read since it wasn't random at all.

In other news, our vote is now serious.

Now would probably be a bad time to mention that you were a "hmmmm" read that I ultimately decided was more null than scum but who was

this

close to being in the 'likely scum' list I posted.
(A read which hasn't changed.)

And it's developed from there as they've continued posting.

(Countdown for someone calling this post scummy.)

Zero. (We were counting down, not up.)

[mastin2]

Five, six scum, right?

{Sharpest-knife-on-tree, The Most Curious Thing, Natirasha, talah, Xayzeck, Jordan_Downey, Aegor} is not going to be our scumteam. (In part because it exceeds the maximum by one. ) But it's a solid start.

[mastin2]

8. TiphaineDeath
9. Sharpest-knife-on-tree
10. Dry-fit
11. The Most Curious Thing
12. Nachomamma8
13. TSO
15. Natirasha
16. Talah
17. Xayzeck
19. Fear (Yessiree/Emogirl123)
20. Jordan_Downey (Jingle/Aphix)
21. Aegor

This is the full list removing townreads. I'm gonna gamble on Nacho being town and guess TSO's town here, too. TD's a minor townread overall, and Dry-fit is someone I'm not feelin' the scum in. (Xayzeck is someone who varies from time to time, but who I am CURRENTLY feeling is town.)

Butyeah. I'm mainly focusing in here. Aegor I waffle on (but will trust Anti), Fear's a dead-null.

[mastin2]

You only briefly played with me in one game.

Yeah, but I've seen you around so I have a fairly decent idea of what you're capable of doing as town.

This...doesn't seem like it.

Your posting is empty. There's nothing there. Rock-solid, no, 'specially since I don't have that absolute familiarity. Decently-assured, yes, yes I am.

so you are so great and powerful that you "Guess" 2 people who have not checked into the game are town.

Yep! Pretty much.

Dangerous thinking imo.

Welcome to how I live my life.

[mastin2]

right now you are proclaiming reads with little evidence.

Stated. Doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

(I love it when people try to use my own MD theory against me. It's fun watching their cocky smirks turn to horror as what sounded like a brilliant idea full of irony is revealed to be a wakening of a slumbering beast that is preying in a turf they are intimately familiar with, against prey that just now realizes they're in hostile grounds, and they realize that they had absolutely no clue what they were up against.)

[mastin2]

Actually, that post was so bad in so many ways that it by just itself (yet alone the other stuff with it) is enough for this:
VOTE: Sharpest-knife-on-tree.

Mastin, would you please define meglomania for me? <3 .

Though it makes a good joke, I'm actually fairly humble. I'm not "great and powerful", but I am guessing Nacho's town and TSO's town, quite seriously.

[mastin2]

Let's do it the other way.

7. Zdenek
2. Doublade (Marquis/Caledfwitch)
1. Shiny Hydreigon (Wisdom/Notscience/Ms Marangal)
5. PeregrineV
3. Saki
4. ZZZX
6. Spring Starflower (Metal Sonic/Sakura Hana)
14. MafiaSSK
22. RachMarie
8. TiphaineDeath
12. Nachomamma8
13. TSO
10. Dry-fit
19. Fear (Yessiree/Emogirl123)
17. Xayzeck
11. The Most Curious Thing
15. Natirasha
21. Aegor
16. Talah
20. Jordan_Downey (Jingle/Aphix)
9. Sharpest-knife-on-tree

Positions again highly fluid, but I think this gives a general feeling of where I am.

[mastin2]

I know perfectly well what I am doing and the direction I chose.

Apparently not since if you did then you'd have not brought it up and realize I know my own rules better than anyone else. I know their ins and outs better than anyone. I know their intended meaning, even if the literal wording didn't say that. The metaphor I brought up is perfectly accurate a vivid description of it. It's entering into a fight that is quite literally impossible to win, with confidence that you're the one who can't lose because you mistakenly believe you've got an "a-ha!" trap that has been sprung. But I digress. It's not really that relevant to the game.

If you are familiar with me please describe for me, generally who I am.

I don't really hold that intimate familiarity. But I've seen your posting, well...the best term I can think of, is..."richer" than this.

If I wasn't feeling so lazy, I could probably compile some of those games and show it, but that's the most apt description of it, boiled down to its most succinct central point. You're capable of more wealthy, lively, hearty posting. What you've shown hasn't been that. (That, I can show faster, but am still a little bit lazy. ) That's aside from the problems in post 341, of which there are multiple, that only add to it. (I probably will be explaining this one, but am...still incredibly lazy. )

[mastin2]

mastin as ??? explaining a scumread without reasoning

Yeah, but I've seen you around so I have a fairly decent idea of what you're capable of doing as town.
This...doesn't seem like it.
Your posting is empty. There's nothing there. Rock-solid, no, 'specially since I don't have that absolute familiarity. Decently-assured, yes, yes I am.

mastin as scum explaining a "scumread" without reasoning

Talah was a scumread for much of the reasoning Rogers presented, though my own wording is slightly different--basically, there's nothing genuine about talah's posting; it's hollow, shallow, easily faked and overall just feeling plain empty. He's playing a highly-reactionary game rather than a proactive one, and overall, he feels like he's not scumhunting; he feels like he's trying to get a feeling for how to manipulate players.

Know how, normally, when there's a similarity between two games, I'll fully admit it? Y'know. "Okay, I can kinda see that.
...It's wrong, but I can see why you'd think it's right."
Stuff like that?
Or "Sure, but it doesn't mean what you think it does."?
And similar?

Yeah, well.
Have that in mind when I say this.

Those two are absolutely

nothing

alike, and you comparing my game to 172 (when they're basically the difference between night and day) is setting off all kinds of alarm bells.

[mastin2]

TheNecromancers (6): Jordan_Downey, Talah, Xayzeck, Natirasha, Sharpest-knife-on-tree, Aegor

Okay, they can't all be scum.

Nobody (aside from maybe Antihero) would like to have their egos stroked more than to have all scum on a wagon.

But this wagon is, quite bluntly put, pretty much objectively god-awful.
Not all scum, sure.
2-3 scum, assured. (Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe 4 if we're pushin' it.)

Jordan/talah/SKOT (and maybe Nati) being my main focus.

[mastin2]

if only i had a million vig kills for this

Patience, Antihero, 'cause there's someone who needs death much more rapidly.

VOTE: talah.

I just realized.

One of the main things talah and I had in our discussions was that talah would learn to not read me by that meta. We both know that it's a mistake. We both know that it'll lead to a misread on me. That point GreyICE made is kinda what I'm talking about, in that we discussed it. I'll have to pull up the dead QT for the precise wording, but basically, it was agreed--talah would be able to read me on my play in the current game, not by referencing the past game, not by relying on somewhat-forced tells, on things that were contextually-dependent and don't apply elsewhere.


Skip forward to here and now.
Where talah?

Does

exactly

the thing he said he wouldn't be doing.

[mastin2]

The thing is you're a fuckload better at explaining yourself than you give yourself credit for.

Note that here I'm not refusing to explain or saying I can't explain. I'm

slacking off

on explaining.

You laid down reads with little reasoning (which you seem to have run with unless it's been a hallmark) but they were inherently explicable. You were open and offered to explain.

Trends that I have shown this game

.

You can lay down reads and I can have an affinity with them. We didn't talk a hell of a lot in the hydra QT, but it didn't matter, like at all. We looked at very similar things being scumtells, or scum indicators.

(Why talah's reads being out of synch with mine sets off red flags. I laid the foundation. Talah didn't pick up on it, he flat-out rejected it.)

So when you entered this game I expected to *understand where you were coming from* and I just didn't this game.

And this is me, this game, with talah.

My response?

You're actually hitting on the same notes that the players that successfully read me do. I don't think you've quite got the grasp on it yet (meaning in future games, it'll be possible you'll misread me), but I think you're actually really, really close to it (meaning in future games, it won't be PROBABLE you'll misread me ).
I'd be interested in testing that out a bit. See if you can join the ranks of the holy-few-who-never-misread-me. Of which, there are basically only a handful. (Less, actually. AP/zMuffinman are again the only two that I recall off the top of my head, though I do think there are others.)

(Okay, I remember there being a longer conversation than that, but still, shows what I mean.)

[mastin2]

mastin why am i hilariously town again

Because your posting is insanely town?
You're obvtownning the place up.

All your posting is ridiculously town.

[mastin2]

"you dare have the audacity to think i am scum!!????"

Nobutyes. (Or yesbutno? Line's kinda blurred in this case.) Random players thinking I'm scum, not raising my eyebrow.

talah

saying I'm scum,

especially

given our history? Heck yes, when I see that, I'm going to instantly know that something's off.

it just sounds like you are ignoring peoples' reasons for voting you

Except I haven't?

and just attacking them blindly because of the vote.

Except I'm explicitly scumhunting players on the wagon and analyzing them to try and find scum?

For instance, my read on you isn't dropping because of your vote; it's actually strengthened.

[mastin2]

nacho and tso haven't posted and yet you call them town

Yep! I told you before, I'm psychic. Shiny Hygedrion was a townread before they posted, and when they posted, continued being a townread.

it's almost like everyone not voting you is town

Nope! Quite explicitly, I've had ~8 players outside my wagon that I was wondering about. In fact, a fair number of them jumped onto my wagon

after

I was suspicious of them. Not vice-versa.

and everyone voting you is scum

Not everyone, just the majority. Mastinwagons are never good wagons. Well, I suppose they are, but only in the sense that they generate a ton of info in a ridiculously short timeframe, but other than that, not really, 'specially not if they go to a lynch. (ScuMastin never gets lynch without her consent, pretty much.)

It's not an ego if it has

backing

.

[mastin2]

careful your arrogance is showing

Little bit, yeah.
Doesn't make my statement any less true.

VOTE: necro
for empty reads, hollow posts with extraneous info, engaging in pointless arguments, but most importantly, for thread cleaniness

See this? This is what I was talking about.

I suspected Fear

first

, thankyouverymuch. (Okay. Not suspected. Had in dead-null, but given my other reads, close enough.)

This post is, ironically enough, hollow with extraneous info, from a slot that has given basically empty reads and hasn't engaged in pretty much any arguments at all.
(Not necessarily scum. But certainly not a townread.)

[mastin2]

Antihero gave his three most recent scumgames.
He picked them off of that criteria: MOST. RECENT.
They don't match your expectation of his posting. (Or his posting in here for that matter.)
You say, "bah, you have more games than that".

And you wonder why we scumread you, SKOT.

[mastin2]

no, i don't see the need to engage in fruitless arguments that clutter up the thread for everyone

Nor have we. Every single argument I've engaged in has had a purpose. And entering into an argument in which the result might be pointless? Is worth it if the alternative is not entering into an argument at all. The whole, "if you try, you may fail; if you don't try, you're guaranteed to fail" and all that.

all while having no content to consolidate a read on anyone

Oh, but we do.

so, what's your point in pointing out our differences?

Similarities for hypocrisy, differences on things that are worse than the thing you're saying about us.

[mastin2]

if the very fact that mastin is making reads lists is yall's issue with our slot, i'm fucking done

Don't cave in to possible-scum's reasoning, Anti.

I simply was saying I did not think I would get useful reactions from you and would rather pick at mastin. I referenced you winning a lot as scum. You claimed "scum wins a lot" as a retort and said you think you are obvi-scum when you are scum, counteracting my suggesting that you are dangerous scum. Since I do not meta dive and am not a tell driven player that is not something I ask for. I am looking to distinguish between differences in evasion and survival vs elimination and searching...

You claim Antihero wins as scum a lot.
Antihero says that he doesn't really, and thinks himself obvscum.
Antihero provides his most recent scumgames, where this is demonstrated.
They do not match your version but match his.
You post "you have more games than that" as an accusation against him that he's selectively showing games.

And you are also saying our reaction to seeing this train of thought is expected. (Of scum, presumably.)

[mastin2]

I am not using meta other than meta came up as the source of your reaction, in particular to being called good at being scum. Now you have escalated that to diabolical scum genius. No, I did not put you in the category of people like say BabyJesus from way back in the day. That man was a diabolical scum genius. He don't play much these days.

And yet you also ignore that I've essentially done the same thing, in that I

am

a diabolical scum mastermind when scum. Nobody knows how to pull the strings that control the system better than I do. I can predict things that should be impossible to predict, and set things up for a theoretical occurrence days before it could come to pass. I know how the info flows, controlling things so that town players think what I

want

them to think. (Which is evident in that sometimes? I can even make them want to think I'm scum, if the tradeoff is VERY strongly thinking my scumbuddies are town and town players are scum.
/still ridiculously proud of L4D.)

there is a difference between engaging in arguments that might prove not worthwhile and engaging in arguments knowing jackshit will come from it

Yes, well, I'm engaging in arguments I quite explicitly am seeing productive results from, sooooooooooo....

how am I being hypocrite again?

Your reasoning on clutter in the thread was extraneous, you have given basically no reads and no reasoning behind it (you're saying these things about our slot but not really elaborating on them) as you accused us of, and as mentioned, you've lacked engagement until just now.

[mastin2]

"i'm making reads on people with not even a single post to back them up, but i'm going to attack other people for having scumreads on me and get all butthurt because you're not supposed to scumread me so soon".

Not quite, but not as inaccurate as you'd expect me to answer. I'm making some reads with no backing. I've made other reads with plenty of backing, which the majority of my posting is. And it's again you thinking I'm the chicken when I'm the egg, in that I scumread a fair majority of those players...well before they so much as remotely had a scumread on me. And even on those that did, it wasn't because of a player scumreading me, but because it was

that specific player

scumreading me in

that specific way

.

And there really shouldn't be a wagon on us. Not coming from town. The wagon can have town on it, yeah, sure. But it's still ridiculously scumdriven.

not town "but i'm town so that doesn't apply" sorts of rebuttals i think

Except both Anti and I's points are, quite explicitly, exactly that? Saying it doesn't apply is basically the majority of what Antihero's done, and demonstrating it I know has made a large part of my play.

[mastin2]

Back on 18, but before I read those 8 additional pages, basic rundown on my wagon:

TheNecromancers (8): Jordan_Downey, Talah, Xayzeck, Natirasha, Sharpest-knife-on-tree, Aegor, Doublade, Fear.

Jordan:

Jordan's posting immediately struck me as scum even in 68. The accusation was weak, ESPECIALLY given (1) it's me, Mastin, and (2) it's largely not true given that my reads form independently of where a player is voting. Saying we were setting up a town lynch after Xayzeck was also bad. This, coming from a player that isn't brand new to me, who has enough familiarity with my games and my style to KNOW that this is fairly par for the course. The backing doesn't even hold, either.

(Though that'd make SSK prob-town.)

Mastin had a P1 "could be scum" read. Then you bite into the lynchbait who expressed suspicion above the "Can we kill this?" read.
You're obv setting up SSK for D2. Cockiness I expect. Sloppiness? Not so much. I'm ashamed of your play this game.

No, SSK isn't being set up, and at the time I was simply throwing around probabilities. There's also the fact that he's calling our play sloppy. I'll admit, it certainly has been...but that sloppiness should be an indicator of a TOWN mindset, yet he's using it to show a scum one.

I am gonna say that Xay is an easy lynch. He's getting better, but he's not on the same level as mastin yet. And mastin knows that.

There's also the fact that he claims to be familiar with my play, and yet thinks that I would attack an easy lynch like Xayzeck.

Jingle are you pushing me or protecting me

Nope and neither.
I also don't agree PL always means town. It's easy to hide in a PL as scum when the target flips town.

Denies WKing Xayzeck yet that's quite strongly what they have been doing. The whole PL debate is also weird.

I'm not in agreement at all with TheNecromancers, though I have seem manipulative aspects in their posts I personally not seeing much scum. We'll see how it goes.

This line when spoken by a town player is typically accompanied by an unvote. But the tone is scummy-as-hell here. Not seeing much scum, and waiting to see how it goes, in particular, don't feel like the town wording for those statements. ESPECIALLY given this.

Spring Starflower still isn't making any better posts. So don't like that slot.

Not really suspicious of us...yet suspicious of Spring. But keeping their vote on us...why? Because there's a wagon on us.

Not a fan of fear's activity. Accusing people of having no content when also not including content.
Spring Starflowers voting is horrible even if I can agree with the fear vote. Still not introducing anything.
Letting the other head catch up before we decide if we'll change a vote, as including the above I still agree with the Necro wagon at this time.

This is also a horrible post, because Fear?
Voted us.
We?
Gave suspicion on Fear both before and after the vote.
Why does Fear voting us not give so much as a pause for them on our wagon?
Why does our Fear suspicion (which he should be agreeing with) go unnoticed?

The overall picture doesn't make sense coming from a town player. It doesn't add up. The viewpoint they're taking I can't see the reasoning behind from a town player. They're not really scumhunting, merely making statements that're largely about things most likely to be null. Their wording lacks commitment, yet they've basically committed to their vote the whole game. More than that, this simply doesn't

feel

like Jingle's towngame. Admittedly, I'm not too intimately familiar with said towngame, but this doesn't feel like it and it does feel like a scumgame.

The overall read is decently-strong scum, but not overwhelmingly so.

talah:

To understand this read, you have to understand our histories together as players. I've basically outlined it, but there's a difference between quoting and linking to. Here is Gundam Seed, where we were basically introduced to one another. The dead QT, where we talk. Check out message 56 where I cheer as talah catches onto the scum in Kalimar. Then message 64. (65 I think, too.) 69 as well. And from there all the way to 79.

Mastin rageposting. LOL. Let's hydra in a few months or something - I'm dead in all games now and it suits me okay, but I love your attention to detail and I think you'd be great to work with bouncing ideas off.

I die (ESPECIALLY DURING THE DAY), you pretty much know the town's in for a whole lotta HURT.

And talah responded with a smiley. Basically, talah knows that I am an incredibly strong, valuable town player. Which talah even commented on.

It was nice to be able to re-read your posts and look for intent, and then

be able to quiz you on specifics

and have more insight to counteract 'teh mysteriez of succinct'. Actually if you'd survived a day or two I think

it would have been really easy for you to have obvtowned with that posting style+

openness

- obviously scum thought you'd already got there.

Note the contrast here to that game. Note how talah pushed me as scum, without asking questions, without asking inquiries, without that follow-through. I'm just as much open if not moreso this game. Yeah, I've begun by not explaining in detail. But I've been willing to, and have already done so slightly.

Next up, Time distortion. It's as talah said in 172: We made posts basically without using our QT that synched up nearly perfectly, for better or for worse. I posted stuff that talah agreed with, and vice-versa, before the other had the chance to have posted it. Sometimes ninjaing each other on the same exact point just said differently, but using not only the same basic reasoning but reaching the same ultimate conclusion. Showing that, yes, we do synch up fairly well as town.

I already mentioned 172, but again, check out talah's attitude towards me there. He brings up this history. I am forced to dismiss it. He continues pressing valid points about me, and I was kinda not doing very well as a result. Yet here's a critical factor:

talah was extremely hesitant to keep his vote on me

. He voted me because he correctly had me as scum...but he wanted to be wrong. He tried giving me every benefit of the doubt possible, and recognized the chance he could be wrong, and if so, lynching me D1 would be a Very Bad Idea (TM). This game...none of that has been shown.

This game, I'm the one who brought up our history, and now HE is dismissing it. He's kept his vote on me, showing no hesitance about it, in spite of saying that he thinks he can read me correctly and the fact that, bluntly, I'm one of the towniest players in the game right now which means if EVER there was a game where he should be townreading me, it's this one.

Thus, why he's among my stronger scumreads. If not my strongest.

Xayzeck:

Honestly, I'm thinking Xayzeck is town, here. Xayzeck's slot has done a lot of stuff that screams either incredibly dumb or quite simply scum. But while there are flashes of eyebrow-raising scumposting that makes me tilt my head and think about his alignment being scum...I don't think it is. Because while a lot of his pushes are bad, I feel like they come from town all the same. This one's a bit more difficult to explain, but basically, strings of his posting look like town; strings of his posting look like scum. But overall, his tone and the content presented does make me think town.

Natirasha:

Though this is mainly a gut feeling, there actually is reasoning. However, I don't want to explain the read until Nati actually comes and posts more since the storm yesterday brought. (Consider this a close-to-my-chest read.)

The sharpest-knife-on-tree explanation is something that I will get around to after I've read the content in the last eight pages, since I took a skim and know he's posted in the majority of it. Basic rundown is that there are flashes of town, but that his overall mindset looks like scum, especially considering he's had some highly-hypocritical things which show either an extremely double-standard confbias or a scum mindset. So basic SKOT read is confbias-town or scum, with an overall feeling of decent-scumread.

Aegor:

Okay, bluntly, there's nothing town I see in Aegor, really. Quite honestly, the only reason I'm not more strongly scumreading Aegor is that I don't think I've ever had a game where I've townread him, meaning that I'm prone to thinking he's scum regardless of his alignment. So basically, my read here would be much more strongly scum if not for meta-showing-caution. This is in contrast to Dry-fit, in that while I saw bad stuff from Dry-fit that made me suspicious, I can also see Dry-fit as town with his posting; when looking at Aegor, I see bad but I don't see how he could be playing this way as town. Thus, confbias, and thus, not my strongest scumread, but still among them overall. (Because just 'cause I'm confbiasing doesn't mean I'm wrong. )

Doublade:

Not sure if I can really explain the townread here that well. It's basically a combination of tone and mindset. Marquis has shown a ridiculously town tone, coming across as genuine. Furthermore, his thoughts are highly original and show he's thinking critically. He's not making blind assumptions, he's not slacking off, there's actual effort to putting puzzle pieces together; he doesn't seem to have the answers already. He's among my strongest townreads, and I can follow his thoughts perfectly.

Fear:

Similar to SKOT, but I'll just say that admittedly, I don't really have much experience with either head. (Though...emogirl doesn't fancy me as the type to be playing in this manner as town, but this is just from what I remember of The Fall which was a toxic game, soooooo, not a good baseline for her.) If I did, my scumread could be stronger or could be nonexistent, but what I've seen does point to scum, albeit only a little bit.

After catching up and doing the details on the players I didn't detail here, I can also detail other players-of-note. (That is, potential scum players.)

[mastin2]

But let us look at that facts of his games played.
25 total complete games.
Drew scum role 8 total times. He won as scum a total of 6 times. He lost 1 time in a multi-ball game. He lost once as a SK. That is a high win percentage as scum.

High win percentage != competency. Eight scum games is not a large sample size. If his win percentage was near-100% with that number of scumgames and he joined the site within one or two years? Sure, yeah, it'd be significant. If his win percentage was that high with a significantly-larger sample size with his current number of games? Sure, yeah, it'd be significant. But he's been here for five years. That's an average of 1.5 scumgames per year. You're effectively using a sample size of one or two, in spite of saying it's larger, because scumgames/year is far more important the statistic to scumgames overall.

Also, maybe different or maybe along the same lines, food for thought: if a veteran that had won ten scumgames in 2004 came back and lost a scumgame today, what would your thought on that be? The stats say they've got a high win percentage as scum. The numbers say competency as scum. Just a fluke? Or maybe, just maybe, they're not nearly as competent now as they once were.

The quick scum read on non-sense.

So basically...
...You expected us to scumread you for posting non-sense.

Nonsense that would be true our alignment regardless.
Nonsense we would therefore call you out on our alignment regardless.

What do you gain from it, then?

to start off: why dont you give me a person or two in mastin's scumslot of which he has given valid reasons

In-thread at the time of this request alone? Talah, yourself to some extent, beginning to on SKOT (though admittedly not that much), as just the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

Mastin, what is your readslist based off of?

Differs from player to player. Tonality. Mindset. Circumstances. Meta. General aura of things and how they've gone. Like you as town, among my strongest, thanks to stuff like this. Zdenek's a strong townread because I instantly saw the town in his posting and thoughts.

My reads are plenty thought through. I just haven't placed the reasoning in-thread. (Until partially just right now, albeit not fully.)

(TD's 460 is ridiculously town, btw. As is follow-through.)

Forgive me if I do not have a lot of faith in your perspective. I have not seen you do well and seen you suckered in past by someone that appeared 1000% scum and was. Again, that was past this is now. I am wading my way around here.

First half does not mesh with the second half, especially given:

I am not using meta other than meta came up as the source of your reaction, in particular to being called good at being scum.

(Different context, but shows how he treats meta all the same.)

I am not a "tell hunter" nor a "meta hunter" but I did want to see what you did-

YET MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL,

eh, I have tried pulling things from reading past games and I do not do a good job of reading those differences.

I am more of what is going on in the moment

and other stuff which is the tools used where I have played many many games. I cannot shake what do and I cannot do what others.

So pointing me to completed games is all nice and shiny.

And that being said, it really has nothing to do with games with you as a hydra with mastin which is a completely added dynamic and brand spanking new.

Bolded: his stated preference of living in the now, not the past. Yet when TD is playing in the present and raising points that may hold validity, does SKOT pause to consider them?

No. He goes into the past, pointing to completed games which is all "nice and shiny" as he puts it. When he himself has admitted that it was a completely different dynamic. Antihero said it well: dismissing via a reverse 7-for-7 ("you were wrong before, you're wrong again"), when there were legitimate points that by SKOT's own philosophy should have been listened to.

(I will be going over SKOT's posting in this range in more detail later, though, to give you a better idea of how it makes me feel about SKOT. If I had him as my strongest scumread, you'd see me voting him, but I'm not.)

[mastin2]

these were all in the first four pages... what kind of "backing" is anyone expecting besides early game gut...?

(To be fair. I do have backing for most of those statements. I can show more or less the train of thought on anything I remember and I remember most of it, and even if not, know my mind well enough to guess and fill in the gaps to create the picture anyway.)

Mastin has a sample size of 1 completed game. Yet, that was enough to proclaim a read without anything behind it?

Said completed game didn't really factor in at all, btw. I didn't know you were peacebringer because I didn't care to know. I've seen you elsewhere. Just 'cause you don't see my name doesn't mean I'm not a player (I have a laundry list of undisclosed alts), and I read (well, skim) a ridiculously high number of games that I'm not in. (Which does factor into my treatment of you, in that it's kinda difficult to explain the perspective without revealing too much.)

wait... there ate 8/12 votes on Necro already?!?!?!?!?!?!!??!?!?!?!?!??!

Thus it being a scumdriven wagon. Full thoughts will have to wait, on some members of it to check in and for me to gather my thoughts on the rest, but basically, absolute utter complete total minimum of two members. I'm thinking four, not more. Which four, not precisely sure, other than that I'm sure it's not Doublade and personally don't think it's Xayzeck.
Between {Jordan, Talah, Nati, SKOT, Aegor, Fear}, you get decent-scumread, STRONG-scumread, needs-to-post-more-before-read-solidifies (but on scum side), needs-time-to-ponder, strongest-scum-if-not-for-knowing-I'm-biased, and needs-time-to-compile, respectively.

[mastin2]

mastin, you can move the vote back to jordan.

Sure, I guess.
VOTE: Jordan.
With the explicit knowledge that talah's still scum and even stronger.

[mastin2]

Mastin, I heavily disagree with your Xayzeck read and I'll champion my case if you want to talk in an hour or so. I could talk quickly now, but I may have to go.

Unfortunately, I'm actually spending too much time catching up in this game as it is. I'll get to the rest of stuffs later.

[mastin2]

If I see behavior that I think is poor I will react to it. EIther as town or scum.

Guess what: so do we.
We saw behavior we thought was poor from you, and...we reacted to it.

Tell me, given that we'd react to it as town or scum, you gained...

what

, exactly, from doing it?

All the sudden both of them have made a huge shift in how they are posting (both emotion driven posts now to fact driven posts after being called out) furthers my concern on that slot.

Trust me. Anti was ticked off, and is cooled down a bit now. My posting really didn't change much, but I suppose it mighta a little bit 'cause while not angry, I was...agitated. Still am for some players.

I voiced more suspicion on a different slot I should have changed vote or unvoted and the fact I didn't is because of a wagon, but Mastin outright just declaring someone as obvscum and then voting me is town?

Context and circumstances.
You? Keep your vote. The same vote you've had all game. On the lead wagon. In spite of not suspecting us that much. And suspecting other players more.
We? Have moved our vote around a lot, explained our reads, and moved it onto you in part on request and in part because we agreed on it.

well you have seen me elsewhere then what else do I go by elsewhere?

Elsewhere

on the site

. As in, here. On mafiascum. Seeing (and maybe playing in) some of your other games. (And if as a player...with ME as the player using a different name.)

For instance, looking at your peacebringer account avatar, I'm positive we've played more than just one game, but if you can only think of the one, fairly certain that means we played another with me as an alt (or hydra, but probably alt). Now apply that just to you being SKOT instead of peacebringer.

[mangled quote cut]

I like all am inconsistent. I look at patterns and reactions. When I say not a "tell hunter" or "Meta hunter" it does not mean I never use such tools. It means it is not my strength and I don't spend a lot of time trying to use those tools. I am not detail oriented to pick up on slight minor details that break one open as scum. I will not pick up on a subtle change in language or such that gives me an ah-ha that is scum. I need data, the more data I get the more I have to react to. Often times I have my gut response. Sometimes I get a lot out of poking and getting reactions like I have from you 2. You have taken my taking each game as it comes mind set but ignoring my talk about we all have experiences. I did not say totally ignore the past.

This is a dodge of my point. You ignored TD altogether. You didn't consider his points. You didn't analyze them and reject them as having been invalid. You didn't think about whether they were true or not. You didn't think about the points in the present. Instead, you brushed it aside in favor of the past.

There's a difference between not entirely living in the present (what you're claiming) and

entirely ignoring it

. (What I saw you doing.)

And note, in all my poking and prodding and the vote I have not once called you scum.

And note that I haven't disclosed my full read on you, either.

7. Zdenek
2. Doublade (Marquis/Caledfwitch)
1. Shiny Hydreigon (Wisdom/Notscience/Ms Marangal)
5. PeregrineV
3. Saki
4. ZZZX
6. Spring Starflower (Metal Sonic/Sakura Hana)
14. MafiaSSK
22. RachMarie
8. TiphaineDeath
12. Nachomamma8
13. TSO
10. Dry-fit
19. Fear (Yessiree/Emogirl123)
17. Xayzeck
11. The Most Curious Thing
15. Natirasha
21. Aegor
16. Talah
20. Jordan_Downey (Jingle/Aphix)
9. Sharpest-knife-on-tree

Positions again highly fluid

, but I think this gives a general feeling of where I am.

this is where you moved me to #1 scum mastin, and now you want to say that I was not #1 scum...

*cough*
Look up what fluid means. The read was strongest scum, now it's not. It changes.

[mastin2]

@mastin - I have no desire to "work with" scum-you.

Screw it.
I can't.
VOTE: talah.
I'm sorry, Anti, and anyone else who wants to work with me.

I cannot vote for anyone else.
Literally cannot.

Because this?
This is a scumclaim from talah. This is talah, last game, scumreading me.

It's probably a bad idea to lynch mastin Day 1 on the off chance that she's town. So will be keeping an eye on.
UNVOTE: mastin

The scumread is laid out with a vote, fleshed out in follow-through, and in the post I'm quoting, summarizes...but shows why he's not going to pursue lynching me.

(And again, for emphasis: My town and scum entrances are vastly different, but this was my town entrance. A big ping is the difference in reads, because if he were town I'd expect to understand him almost immediately as I have.

He's not tried to connect with me; he's not tried to

get

a read on me

, he just said I was scum and then next post voted me. More than that, I've explained my thinking, yet he's brushed it aside. I made the statements...

and then I backed them up

. I've shown to the best of my ability EXACTLY where I am coming from on this, which is exactly the thing that talah said I can do as town but haven't been doing as scum. To put it bluntly, it's not an entrance I'd expect of talah's personality.)

That not enough? Then have this one. (Emphasized parts have been emphasized to show the critical heart of talah's thoughts towards me as a player.)

So I feel like at least we have an amiable connection to the point where

if mastin's town,

I'd like to work with her

, and I'd think that she'd be far more cautious and wanting to determine my alignment rather than just dropping a vote on me and then telling me I know virtually nothing about her.

So anyway, that's it. I feel like I'm getting overinvested in this line of thinking and it's clouding my judgement so

I'm just going to note my scumread on mastin

and keep sorting through other reads.

THIS. IS. TALAH. AS. TOWN. SCUMREADING. ME. YET. BEING. WILLING. TO. WORK. WITH. ME. On the off chance I am town.

Compare to this game. Where talah flat-out refuses to engage me.
REFUSES.

This is scum talah. I was really, really hoping it wasn't. But it is.
Talah as town flat-out said he thinks of me as something of a mentor.
Talah as town flat-out said that he was willing to not only not lynch me, but to work with me on the chance I was town because he values my input that much.
This talah flat-out said he was refusing.

[mastin2]

You seem to be shoving a burden of proficiency argument at me.

DAMN STRAIGHT.
One that

YOU

created.

The thing is you're a fuckload better at explaining yourself than you give yourself credit for. You laid down reads with little reasoning (which you seem to have run with unless it's been a hallmark) but they were inherently explicable. You were open and offered to explain. So I asked about Kalimar, put myself on the line and said what I thought first, and you agreed and added your own take on it. After you got dayvigged I had that as a tenet of you-town. The ability to explain when pressed.

I laid my reads down with little reasoning, but

have been open and offered to explain

.
Where has your questioning of the reads been?
Where has you asking what I was seeing been?
It hasn't been there at all.

You're not looking for the things you look for in reading my alignment. You're not pressing me.
You're just marking me off as being scum.
And leaving it at just that.

That goes against literally everything.

EVERYTHING

. That I know of a town-talah. (Not to mention violating just about every article I've written for town which you have familiarity with if nothing else.)
You're not only getting the read wrong, but not going about forming (or updating) the read in a town manner.

Do I need to remind you that my initial scum lean was all about *Anti* and not you? How does scumleaning your slot make me scum?

Really now?

And had a 'one raised eyebrow' read on mastin primarily for not understanding/agreeing with the early reads, then Anti clarified that they're a hydra. So yeah leaning scum until there's a reason not to.

This was just Anti? No, it was both of us. More than that, as the same slot, if you scumread the Antihero half, it requires you to have a scumread on my half. And if you have a scumread on my half? Town-you goes about trying to make sure of it, and if sure of it, will note it but not push it.

But you?

Let me quote the important bit from that post for emphasis.

So yeah leaning scum until there's a reason not to.

DEFAULTING TO SCUMREAD. Until there's reason not to. That is not how a town-talah thinks. A town-talah, like a town-Mastin, holds hope for the inner townness in players, and is vastly disappointed when presented with strong evidence to the contrary...yet will still work with that chance, anyway, just in case. Instead of having me as town until presented with strong evidence of me being scum...you default to scum and are only going to change it with reason to. I'm not sure this is coming across clearly, but I'm right, and you dang-well know it.

And it seems reeeeallly fucking strange to me that despite this being pretty apparent, Anti hasn't addressed me once.

Actually, he did. You weren't the only person to say trying-too-hard. He ranted about it a fair deal in our QT. (Him getting accused of trying too hard is, shall we say, not a new accusation.)


Oh. And all of these don't go into Touhou, which I just remembered you were in and were town that I was vastly impressed with, too.

[mastin2]

7. Zdenek
8. TiphaineDeath
2. Doublade (Marquis/Caledfwitch)
1. Shiny Hydreigon (Wisdom/Notscience/Ms Marangal)

5. PeregrineV
3. Saki
4. ZZZX
6. Spring Starflower (Metal Sonic/Sakura Hana)
14. MafiaSSK
22. RachMarie
13. TSO

12. Nachomamma8
10. Dry-fit

17. Xayzeck
11. The Most Curious Thing
9. Sharpest-knife-on-tree
19. Fear (Yessiree/Emogirl123)
15. Natirasha
20. Jordan_Downey (Jingle/Aphix)
21. Aegor
16. Talah

Spaces quite intentional this time. SKOT/Fear/Nati positions may not be accurate, and heck, even the Jordan one isn't assured.
talah's scum. Aegor's probably scum. Whoever else is scum, those are the important ones.

[mastin2]

Why are you representing something that I said in NY 172 as your own words?

I'm not.

The fact that it's your words is

my whole point

.

You're still not trying to engage with me or get a read on me.

EXCEPT I BLATANTLY DID. I even made a reach-out. Asked why you weren't working with me.

YOU said you weren't going to.

You flat-out said you weren't going to work with me, try to hash things out.
WHEN THAT IS ONE OF THE BEST WAYS FOR US TO GET READS ON EACH OTHER. You said it yourself, that's how you got a townread on me in Gundam--by working with me, by seeing my reads, and listening to their explanation, you were able to get a townread on me there.

You've done nothing like that this game.

You're just trying to sell me as scum to town.

And this! This goes against how you see me as scum, too. As scum, selling a town player as scum to the town is something I rarely if ever do. Not self-meta;

those are your words

. (Well, paraphrased, I suppose.) That as scum, I am opaque and don't let people in, and as town am a much better narrator than I claim when I'm scum. This game?

I'm narrating

, giving my orating.

And your argument is 'talah should be townreading me or giving me a free pass Day 1'.

Not exactly, but more or less?

YES!

I'm town this game. You fancy yourself able to read me. So you

should

be townreading me. That you aren't sets off

big freakin' red flags

.

But let's say.
Let's say you aren't as good at reading me as I've thought you to be.

Past experience has shown you to be willing to give the benefit of the doubt

. This game, you've given none.

[mastin2]

Pretty fucking rich considering you readily admitted you'd pretty much forgotten who I was until I called you scum in 172.

Yes.

And I made sure not to forget you since then.

I play with so many players that I do occasionally forget.
But when a player leaves an impression on me I can't forget (which is normally my scumgames since my scumgames are more memorable in general than my towngames), I make sure to never let that player leave my mind.

And you haven't. I cited a fair amount of these things from memory. And then, when people didn't take my word on it, I tracked down the sources

and showed the conversations proving it

. You're not even saying I'm wrong about how you think, because I'm right about it and you dang-well

know

I am. Instead, you make this deflection from the whole point.

Who's the one saying "you know

nothing

about me" this game, talah? Because that's what you're claiming, right here.

Anyway I'm just going to underline in bright red pen Necro=Scum and go find the others. At this stage I'm thinking Rach, possibly SSK, ZZZX, and *maybeee* Starflower depending on Sakura's input. Nati and Pere I have zero clue. Saki's absent which I think is actually slightly townleaning. Anyway.

Quite coincidental that you say this, because I was just going to get to that.

You've shared no thoughts on others.
No thoughts on other players you've had suspicion on.
No thoughts on reasons why.
No explanations.
No reasoning.

Just blank empty reads, shown like this.

Where's the walls of text or the spamposting explaining it?
Where's the detailed descriptions where you show exactly where you are coming from and what you are seeing?
Where's the attempt to get players to understand your reads?
Where's the attempt to

gather

reads, for that matter?

Every aspect of your towngame is absent.

[mastin2]

At this stage I'm thinking Rach, possibly SSK, ZZZX, and *maybeee* Starflower depending on Sakura's input. Nati and Pere I have zero clue. Saki's absent which I think is actually slightly townleaning. Anyway.

posturing aside, the other reads are hilariously bad

This, too.

The best read there is Nati and even that one is not sure-fire.

[mastin2]

That was pretty much the angle "ZOMG NO SCUMHUNTING" that you(scum), AP(scum), and Rogers(town) pushed on me in 172 as well.

Only on the surface level, and with vastly different circumstances. In that game? That game, I

said

you weren't scumhunting...but you

were

. In that game, I claimed you weren't being genuine, but your posts were ridiculously genuine. (Here, there's no emotion behind them. There, there was plenty.) I claimed you were being reactionary, when you were being proactive. Here, though. Here, you really. Really. HAVEN'T BEEN.
Like I can pull up examples of the accusations I made, and contemporary posts of yours that show it to be false and actually the opposite.

Not so here.

Because there? There, I was scum faking my town self in a decently-convincing manner hitting all the right literal points but failing in every general sense in that I was on the ropes. Here? It's the real thing. And now, you're the one trying (and doing a decent job) to hit all the literal points but failing literally every single general check you possibly could.

Regarding not giving you a free pass in *this game*, I recently finished an alt-game with Nacho where I had him in my scumleans and gave him a free pass and he went on into lylo.

Also not my point. (Well, part of my point, but y'know what I mean.) There's a difference between giving a free pass and

refusing to consider the alternative

. You can still press the idea of me being scum...but to do so and ignore everything I bring up? Ignore my content, ignore my posting, blindly assume I am scum until the end of days?

No.

That's not a town-talah. Never. Never ever.

Oh and you should probably explain what me-scum has to gain by calling you-town, scum.

A lynch on quite frankly two of the most competent town players in the game? Anti's ridiculously good at scumhunting when town. I'm not quite as good, but I've been progressively feeling more and more in my stride. My towngame is getting more accurate with each and every town game I'm playing in. In particular, if my suspicions this game are remotely correct, then having me dead early-on prevents me from refining them and from convincing players.

Ironically enough, you yourself gave the perfect reason scum would want to get rid of me early-on. Just you described the dayvig, rather than doing so via lynch. (Even though the result--the person pushing for my death--should be the same, in that it makes them obvscum, well, it took days before Titus was lynched in Gundam.)

Actually if you'd survived a day or two I think it would have been really easy for you to have obvtowned with that posting style+openness - obviously scum thought you'd already got there.

I'm sure as heck open as can be, and bluntly obvtown. Lynching me? Would be a scum field day.

[mastin2]

(For the record, this is basically a 97.5% scumread. It's one of the few. The rarest of the rare. Where a player I hold fundamental trust in shows themselves to be scum. To the point where even if I lost, I'd almost be willing to enter into a 1v1, if not for that slither of a doubt, that tiny morsel of hope that I am wrong and that they are town that I somehow have seriously misread. There's only one or two other possible players for me to have this feeling for, Nacho and SSK, thanks to our histories.

That

strong.)

[mastin2]

Will get to SKOT posts later.

Yeaaah, I am not seeing talah scum, sorry Mastin :/.

Alright. How 'bout this: activity.

Spoiler: brief look at talah activity

Hi Deas! You town this time?

VOTE: mastin2

Hi mastin!

Your entrance to this game is not genuine.

*yawn*

Actually I know more folks playing here than I realised, so -general hello- and down to business.

@Mister, not genuine

how

?

I am talah! Are you town?

Yuppers, sure am.

Well this is good news! Perhaps if mastin is town too we shall be an unstoppable scumhunting force.
Or the first three nightkills ><

O_o

That's even more scumtastic.

1) Have you ever played with DV before in a game?
2) Please explain how "knowing more people" relates to your actions upon entering this game.

Obfuscation is now added to the lack of sincerity.

Very good. I see you have totally ignored my question "Ingenuine

how

?", and added obfuscation, and changed ingenuine to insincere. If you could be a bit more clear in your thoughts it will help me to develop a read on you.

1) Considering your 2) it's strange that you ask this. Because you are saying that having played with people is not game related, or is insincere, or ingenuine (actually I don't know what you're specifically saying because you never clarified just what it was that you found not genuine, but rather steamrolled on with an 'obfuscation' accusation), and here you are asking me to provide *more* information which you apparently find scummy.

The answer is Yes: I've played with Deas (who I think is fun), and mastin (who I see somewhat as a mentor), and Pere, and Smudger, and Nero Cain, and one other player under an undisclosed alt. I also know RachMarie as she modded my first game.
So I'm conversant with several

personalities

in this game, and I think that will aid me in getting reads on players.

2) Probably answered in the above unless you have something more specific or clear to ask.


UNVOTE: mastin
VOTE: Doc

- Answer my question about what you found ingenuine

- I think I just realised what the fuck you're talking about regarding "MOAR" people, and the reason I mentioned it was that I actually said "Hi!" To Deas, then Pere posted and I hadn't noticed he was in the playerlist (and then spotted a couple others)

- I'm sheeping Deas to get a more solid read on him, and I think his vote on Doc was legit

- I'm also aware of shitting up the thread when only a handful of folks have posted so far, so here's a hint and an adieu: I'm town and you're barking up the wrong tree if you are too.

I got major suspicion on Deas during RVS last time we played together. I wasn't burned at all.

Dunno how you form reads, but I tend to like to interact in different ways with people and assess whether I think their responses are genuine or not, and whether they make sense and are consistent with the gamestate.

Anyway, carry on.

Ffs, can you let me get back to cleaning my house for my rental inspection on Tuesday? I'll take any other interrogation on notice for the next 24 hours, kay?

Deas is a dude unless I have alzheimers. Mobile Suit Gundam SEED in large themes topic.

I think Deas voting Doc for (Doc) making a vote which was "fuck that guy", deserved pressure because it was a bad vote, but mainly I like the fact that he (Deas) latched onto it and naked voted because I think that he (Deas) tends to get over-explanatory as scum, dotting i's and crossing t's where town probably wouldn't. So I liked it fine and given my mastin vote was pure RVS and reaction-fishing, and mastin hasn't posted, switched quite happily to simultaneously get a better read on Deas, and find out what Doc was about.

No results yet because I'm being hijacked by you. Nevertheless I'm noting the Pere/Admiral interaction. Dunno what to think about bjc or Doc yet, maybe slight scum on Doc. You I'll abstain on for now.

Taleh, is this DV dotting i's and crossing t's?

I really dislike that first sentence and that question about why someone would ask for a link to a game odd.

It seems more like commentary/observation to me, and having had to specify so early one of the major things I'd look for in scumreading Deas virtually invalidates it. I do have a few other things I'd be keeping an eye out for but for now I'm not concerned and happy to lean town.

Bjc already looks like he is going to be a lynch bait here .

Talah is bad all over . He has one decent post explaining his decisions otherwise he has been bad all over .

So if I've had a bunch of 'bad' posts and one 'decent' post what's your opinion? Was the 'decent' post enough to invalidate all of the 'bad' posts, or are you weighing my alignment only numerically on your opinion of what posts are 'bad' or 'decent'?

Also I left the bjc thing in because lynchbait can only be town, right? So you're townreading bjc? Why?

Talah 1) Called for allies 2) Blindly sheeped those allies 3) Reacted badly to a case being made. For early day one, that's a slam dunk case that I'm not going to "wait and see" on.

1)

What allies did I call for? Was it:

a)

Deas and mastin, suggesting if we're all town we might join forces, in the extremely early (as in, I-couldn't-possibly-have-a-read early) response garnering comment I made?
or,

b)

The entire roster of people I have previously interacted with in the playerlist?

2)

Who were the other

allies

that I was *also* sheeping?
I'll tell you right now that I've sheeped

scumreads

before, because I think it's a useful way to find out if there's conviction and validity behind a case, and to see of others join a wagon and why.

3)

What case did I react badly to? The case being made about me? Which I know to be bullshit? Do tell me how I was supposed to react in your eyes to a super-early overblown case which was 'ur post ain genuwin son', or if you're referring to something else, please clarify.

You appear to be twisting words to exaggerate the validity of your vote, and I might add that your entrance was pretty much what you appear to be accusing me of, in that you sheep Mister and appear to buddy up to him by implicitly agreeing with everything he's said and adding the 'coalition' statement.

Borked quote tags in my post 87, should be this.

Talah 1) Called for allies 2) Blindly sheeped those allies 3) Reacted badly to a case being made. For early day one, that's a slam dunk case that I'm not going to "wait and see" on.

Oh god, mastin rolled scum and it looks like multifaction.

mastin - why did you delete the spacing in the quote of mine you posted? I actually responded to Mister, addressed everyone else I'd played with generally, then asked Mister a question (which is apparent in the fact that I, well, readdressed him with the @ symbol). Removing the spacing makes it look like the entire thing was in response to the quote, which it wasn't.

Secondly why are my and Mister's interactions town vs scum? Do you think I fooled Mister to the point where he's no longer voting me - meaning he's town and his push was good but he's wrong?

Lastly I'll post as much as I like thank you very much. Less than 4 pages a day on day 1 is *nothing* compared to recent larges and I know you know that just from the fact that you were in FE:A and Gundam. So this proposal just seems like a way to squash free conversation and possibly give yourself a reason to complain about excessive activity if you decide to lurk.

Secondly why are my and Mister's interactions town vs scum? Do you think I fooled Mister to the point where he's no longer voting me - meaning he's town and his push was good but he's wrong?

Yeah, you're scum. This line of thought simply doesn't come from a town player. Town player? "Why do you think Rogers is town? Why do you think I'm scum?" Scum player? "Why do you think our interactions are town vs. scum?" (Making an assumption that interactions have anything to do with the read. They might contribute to the overall picture, but are largely irrelevant.) "...Also, he unvoted me; surely that makes him either scum or wrong." (That's essentially what talah's saying, here.)

mastin I *knew* that I could get a good read on you based on your entrance. Your town and scum entrances are

vastly

different even though you don't seem aware of the differences.

A big ping was immediately differing reads. I don't think you put down more than two or three insta-reads which you actually have any meat behind. In the last game we played together where we hydra'd, I understood your reads *immediately*. I expected you to enter the thread with either slight disdain for my aggression or a hearty 'hullo' and you've done neither. You've not tried to connect with me; not tried to *get* a read on me - you've simply said I'm scum and voted me.

(Which is super interesting considering you've just voted someone else even though you think I'm

definitely

scum).

Are you interested in why I think it's multi-scum based on your one post? Because I have a clear though process on that, too.

Talah was a scumread for much of the reasoning Rogers presented, though my own wording is slightly different--basically, there's nothing genuine about talah's posting; it's hollow, shallow, easily faked and overall just feeling plain empty. He's playing a highly-reactionary game rather than a proactive one, and overall, he feels like he's not scumhunting; he feels like he's trying to get a feeling for how to manipulate players.

Let me address this first: "Hollow, shallow, easily faked and overall just feeling plain empty."

Your words. Can you point out instances of this, or are you happy to simply to cast a huge aspersion on my character without explaining your own thinking?

Secondly - how are you asserting that *I* think that it's town vs scum when I clearly implied that I am tending to think that Mister and I is town versus town?

I'm oh so happy to spend the time requoting myself and yourself in context if you disagree that that was my indication.

Disappointed that you're scum this game

VOTE: mastin2

Your entry reads this game are utter shit. Unless you're prepared to back them up where a direct question is asked, they're inauthentic.

This much I know is true.

I also know that I have played precisely *one* scumgame which I'm happy to link if you're not aware of it, and that you've played *many*, written articles, talked about scum agendas. I know you a bit better than you think, especially after Time: The Distortion.

Why didn't you *try* to form a read on me? Are you basing your read one one post and butthurt because I called you scum from your entrance? Is that a mastin reason to have a scumread?

If I'm scum fo' sho' - why not get me lynched so you can be vindicated obvtown? Contrary to what you're presenting, you're an excellent orator, so it should be no problem for you to iterate specifics in my "case". You only have trouble explaining gut reads initially as town. You very rarely let time pass where your scumreads are gut if someone asks you *why*, in my experience. This personal distancing is troubling to me.

Ed: ^@mastin

So this proposal just seems like a way to squash free conversation and possibly give yourself a reason to complain about excessive activity if you decide to lurk.

Why do you think this could potentially happen?

Why do I think what could happen?

Agree with your tentative scumreads except for Admiral at this stage. Also surprised Smudger hasn't turned up yet. Rach leans Town. I'll give a lovely reads-spam in the next day or two.

What are your thoughts on mastin so far? I'm not asking you to pick a side, just interested.

I'll be back in about 36 hours (maybe sooner if I can get some quality forum time at work).

Covering off what I recall as some questions raised/comments I thought to make:
- Rach your couple of posts felt genuine, so gut at this stage.
- mastin would be fine defending against a meta argument with meta, however, what I'm saying is that I spotted two triggers for me - a bad-looking opening readslist and an entrance which was something I didn't expect from what I know of her personality. That coupled with a pretty opportunistic vote on me hit me in the face like a sledgehammer.
- I'm going to have to have a think about my multi-scum assumption, but it was a bit ego-related and I can explain better where I'm at with it in a bit.
- Zdenek, from your perspective don't you think it's a reasonable assumption that if a person votes you and says on the very next line that the person attacking you is town, that they're assuming an argument is town vs scum? Couple that with the fact that for a supposed 'reaction vote' on me - I was the player who'd already come under the most scrutiny up to that point. So mastin's happy to townread, say, aptil on the basis of one very shonky post, but needs to reaction-test me when I'm the player who already has the most in-thread content to read from?
- aptil, underwhelmed by your response. Can you tell me what it is that's making you townread bjc on the basis of him saying "I'm scum" please.

Anyway, I don't think there's any reason for the Doc wagon to die, and regardless it's probably a bad idea to lynch mastin Day 1 on the off chance that she's town. So will be keeping an eye on.

UNVOTE: mastin
VOTE: Doc

If I'm scum fo' sho' - why not get me lynched so you can be vindicated obvtown? Contrary to what you're presenting, you're an excellent orator, so it should be no problem for you to iterate specifics in my "case". You only have trouble explaining gut reads initially as town. You very rarely let time pass where your scumreads are gut if someone asks you *why*, in my experience.

This

personal distancing

is troubling to me.

Can someone, anyone, please explain what the bolded re the underlined actually means; I am having trouble getting the exact point and I feel its important.

Should really be me that explains myself shouldn't it? (I'm reading along, I just really don't have time to post much until tomorrow evening.)

The last game I played was with mastin, in a hydra. It was a small game, but between us we communicated fairly amiably and sparsely and managed to pretty much align reads and identify the scumteam with pretty decent accuracy. The last two large games I'd played before that (including Gundam SEED) had mastin in them. In Gundam particularly, mastin was dayvigged by scum on Day 1 and I spent much of the remainder of the day trying to scream down a lynch on the vig. mastin *ranted* in the dead thread about how he liked my play and that people should be listening to me.

So I feel like at least we have an amiable connection to the point where if mastin's town, I'd like to work with her, and I'd think that she'd be far more cautious and wanting to determine my alignment rather than just dropping a vote on me and then telling me I know virtually nothing about her.

So anyway, that's it. I feel like I'm getting overinvested in this line of thinking and it's clouding my judgement so I'm just going to note my scumread on mastin and keep sorting through other reads.

Edit: Mister, I'm not tackling mastin on a meta argument because I'm not an expert on mastin-meta and frankly don't have the time to take it to ffery/cabd-like levels which would be the only level I'd actually be comfortable saying 'well, this is statistically significant'. That's not my issue, and the post you quoted is not something I can argue with because

I don't know

. My issue is

what *I* know of mastin

, and the difference here in this game. And as mentioned just above I feel like I want to *not* get involved in a shitfight about it when I could be spending time thinking about players' motivations.

See all of this? This is what talah produced, as town, in the span of only a few days.
Note the post numbers.
He was active in the RVS.
He was giddy, even.
He contributed actively, and gave good content. Even in the RVS. Posting a ton of good stuff.

He's posted less this game in its entirety than he did there in such a short period of time.

Spoiler: Have some more

Hello, catboi.

VOTE: Scumfuck

-t

Subject: Micro 285 - Time: The Distortion (Town Win)

I'm here! Even though it's six bloody a.m.

So Scumfuck, are you two going to be imitooting each other exarctly?

-t

Heh, I haven't really caught up with mastin, we have a handful of 'hai there' posts in our hydra QT and that's about it. I've decided to sign my posts because I'm embracing the hydra experience.

Subject: Micro 285 - Time: The Distortion (Town Win)

And naturally in the same post I say that, I forget to sign. Nice.

-t

Just the first page/day.

Subject: Micro 285 - Time: The Distortion (Town Win)

Unofficial Votecount 1.0(a)

HAPPY BIRTHDAY MAJIFFY

Scumfuck (1) - Lucky2u
DOMO (2) - catboi, Messiah Complex (L-2)
catboi (1) - DOMO
Lucky2u (1) - Adaptive Heap

Not voting (2) - Scumfuck, masky
7 alive, 4 to lynch.

Day 1 begins now and ends on Tuesday, Jan 21st at 8:00 PM Eastern Time

(expired on 2014-01-21 20:00:00)

-t

Subject: Micro 285 - Time: The Distortion (Town Win)

Briefly regarding mastin's reads - seems we didn't need to sync at all.
I had Lucky down as questionable because the main effect of voting Scumfuck was to create a (second) L-2 wagon, but the content given in that post was pure RVS. The tone of the post seemed a bit exaggerated to me as well (as did DOMO's entrance, actually).

Messiah's initial vote obviously had some humour behind it. Scumfuck-ffery-head I know to not be a fan of RVS so no vote is nothing unusual - it might take me a bit more time to firm up a townread here but certainly feeling 'human'. catboi was the first poster (enthusiasm) and I thought we'd have good times voting down the list in sequence (which means, actually, that Messiah broke the pattern ^_-)

Hum, so yeah no masky yet - looking forward to that grand entrance!

-t

And so on. active out of the gates.
Immediately.
And continuously.

Getting lazy, but Same thing in this game. Admittedly, he's a bit slower, but the content's still there and still strong.
Similar in Gundam Seed: not quite as active, but ridiculously active overall. Active posting. Lots of content. Solid posting.


Let's take a look at games I'm not in. This one, same thing. Active immediately; you can tell on just the first page.
Here, replaced in and was active immediately throughout the whole game.

That's talah as town.
This talah? This talah is...not like that at all.
That help?

One thing about not seeing talah as scum is that there's not much OF talah to be seen. And I think that's alignment-indicative.

[mastin2]

tl;dr,
talah as town produces an insane amount of content, good posting with a good town.
talah this game has produced significantly less content in significantly more time, and what little content he has is focused on me.

[mastin2]

:/ I don't like meta cases, and nothing Talah has actually done reads scummy to me.

It's not just meta.

One thing about not seeing talah as scum is that there's not much OF talah to be seen. And I think that's alignment-indicative.

It's something which is slightly suspicious by itself that meta just so happens to enhance.

(And that's just the most recent points. There's more.)

[mastin2]

Dude that's shit cuz Talah's been super inactive like the last three months.

talah's been plenty active. (I'm not sure of the legality in linking to talah's posting history. But not really needed to tell.)


Oh, and by the way Nati.
This all you have to say and comment on?

[mastin2]

Out of hydra post because I'm basically posting this then going to bed. Basically, I've fallen massively,

massively

behind this game, in part thanks to computer failure, thanks to mental stress inducing apathy, and most recently, thanks to my vacation to Nebraska, but I'm essentially intending to fully get back into the swing of things. Maybe not by tomorrow (I'm really, REALLY behind this game, and there's a finite amount of time in a day), but with luck and mental fortitude, by the time my V/LA's marked to end.

I technically marked the V/LA as ending Thursday for this reason. I've had a bit of messed up priorities on my games and shoulda placed 'em before browsing speakeasy and whatnot, but, well...it's past midnight, and I still have a sore throat that comes with the territory of basically traveling 36 hours without good sleep, meaning I should be getting sleep. Obviously, the

idea

was for me to get entirely caught up on all MS.net stuff, everywhere, but while I'm nowhere even close, enough progress has been made to the point where at least for one day, I think I can place sleep ahead of duty.

[mastin2]

I would like to formally apologize to everyone for inflicting DGB on them.

...In her defense, I'd have done no better or even worse than she did during the early/midgame, but at the end, I knew Rach was town and KNEW that the Jordan hydra was rather blatantly obvscum and Kaiveran was towntelling all over the place, so I wouldn't have made THAT mistake, but given that I flaked, I have no right to brag and instead can only profusely apologize and lament my lack of presence.

By now, everyone in the game is more or less familiar with the background behind that; I was going through a VERY tough time and flaked from every hydra I was in. I MIGHT have been able to return to the game had Anti been able to carry the slot long enough for me to get out of the rut (which I did, about a week after we were being replaced), but since he was going through his own troubles, well, we didn't.

I suck.