Ikaruga Mafia (Game Over!)

[Jordan_Downey]

VOTE: Necromancers

For not being the mod.

[Jordan_Downey]

You know there's this thing you can do during the Day when you want to kill someone.

>read the playerlist
>feel foolish

Antihero wishes he had groped Courtney Love.

In other news, our vote is now serious.

Seriously Necro? Two OMGUS reactions and an obvious attempt at setting up another lynch if Xay flips town?

[Jordan_Downey]

So sad to miss RVS. Glad we got in something at least.

lets policy lynch aegor instead

VOTE: aegor

The policy lynch on hydra is a bad idea. The policy lynch on aegor for it is also a bad idea. These aren't two lefts here. I don't like Spring's vote though. I'm fairly new to the site and even I know there are many policy lynches in this player list that are a better idea then aegor.

vote saki

Bandwagôooooooôn

RVS or not this is horrible I think, but I just now reminded myself this is the biggest game I've played in and a tiny wagon probably isn't any really help at all. So, scratch that.

I think I'll disagree with mastin on tmct. Especially with the following replies.

[Jordan_Downey]

(Though that'd make SSK prob-town.)

Mastin had a P1 "could be scum" read. Then you bite into the lynchbait who expressed suspicion above the "Can we kill this?" read.

You're obv setting up SSK for D2. Cockiness I expect. Sloppiness? Not so much. I'm ashamed of your play this game.

[Jordan_Downey]

I don't think I've ever let RVS last to page 3 when I've been this active.

[Jordan_Downey]

...and you're using OMGUS as a scumtell......?

...
...

you scum, jingle?

Why you pretending to be bad players, Anti?

[Jordan_Downey]

Personality meta? Antihero Reboot. Mafia meta? Discussions with sthar. The meta I'm using? Mastin.

Mastin meta = All the games, recently.

Are you telling me that I should ignore mastin and only sort you? Cause that's not gonna happen. And SSK is defo on Mastin's radar.

I am gonna say that Xay is an easy lynch. He's getting better, but he's not on the same level as mastin yet. And mastin knows that.

[Jordan_Downey]

Welp so far I think mastin's posts completely match his avatar over there. The rest I have to say is going to wait for now, as I've had no luck with getting into stupid fights, however much I want to keep poking.

Xay does looks like a target I'd personally go after. I would be concerned if someone has strong reads page two, but it could just as easily be him trying to bait people, which if that's the case worked quite well. Either way pretty meh there. So I'd move on.

@Mastin2: I am more concerned for the person that votes someone for policy lynching then someone to call for a policy lynch, but Spring's vote makes it a town slot for you? I see that play completely opposite, maybe I'll learn something this game. Aegor makes a stupid move, but considering even just one game I play with him I don't think his policy lynch was just some stupid slip. I certainly know I've dropped a moron post just to see who bites the hardest. Which makes Springs vote stick out as one of the scummier things in this game so far to me.

[Jordan_Downey]

Jingle are you pushing me or protecting me

Nope and neither.

I also don't agree PL always means town. It's easy to hide in a PL as scum when the target flips town.

[Jordan_Downey]

Sorry maybe that was specifically for Jingle despite much of the post referencing mine. I personally don't see much behind his(xay) posts either way yet. I'm not in agreement at all with TheNecromancers, though I have seem manipulative aspects in their posts I personally not seeing much scum. We'll see how it goes.

Spring Starflower still isn't making any better posts. So don't like that slot.

[Jordan_Downey]

Currently spring starflower sheeping of necro concerns me. Necro lack of response to it seems to me because it'd be detrimental to bring it up and either way I'm sure they enjoying sheeple as long as they are being followed. I'd guess at this point they don't share align although at this point I think springs play has been terribad I don't think its scum play.

Someone asks me what I think on necro manipulative play. I feel like Mastin is starting fights and felt anti emotions felt felt. But it might be just how they play, and I'm still going over some stuff with the other head.

[Jordan_Downey]

Not a big fan of attempts of meta being thrown about. It's especially not useful when it's the person themselves throwing around the meta. Such as xay, but honestly don't think it's an alignment indicator either way.

Not a fan of fear's activity. Accusing people of having no content when also not including content.

Spring Starflowers voting is horrible even if I can agree with the fear vote. Still not introducing anything.

Letting the other head catch up before we decide if we'll change a vote, as including the above I still agree with the Necro wagon at this time.

[Jordan_Downey]

Metal Sonic, I don't think actual content of the posts matter that much to anti. He's playing is own game. They are both overconfident, with anti being emotional and seemingly cranky.

Anti you are the only person continuing to bring up the hydra comment. Maybe on sign up he didn't realize how many? He also didn't try pressing the issue, didn't try to press a vote. Yet you keep bringing it up ... Why?

Also, is there a reason everyone can't just make one post instead of several little ones?

[Jordan_Downey]

can you please quote the post that your were referring to?

492 I didn't quote anything as I was thinking it'd post immediately afterwards and I didn't actually think to fix it when every time I went to submit there was five posts.

Anti, even of the first few pages your posts where very emotional in nature. Perhaps that's just your thing as I haven't played with you or even read any games, but it reads forced to me. In regards to the content, mostly I see you raging, and mastin being arrogantly confident, neither of which has added directly to the game.

I do however agree wholeheartedly that Fear is terribad so far and has added even less. Be in my top three for currently scummiest along with Necro and Spring Starflower.

Although the last one I might be confusing incompetence with scum. We'll see there.

[Jordan_Downey]

I meant to get to this tonight, but that's not gonna happen at this point. Aphix, you've got lead until I get off my ass sometime tomorrow and read.

[Jordan_Downey]

1) i thought you said you talked with sthar about my meta. if you never had a meta knowledge why did you act like you did before?
2) the bolded is a substantive argument. care to give any backing for that?
3) you're making baseless accusations, seeing that i can't respond to a baseless accusation, and then try to accuse me of not generating content. gotta' love the logic trap.

One, this is a hydra. What Jingle knows is going to be completely different what I know. In regards to backing. Look over just about any post from you from page 20 back. Only recently have you included any real argument, and have dropped off the emotional fit. Which I appreciate.

not so, my dear metal sonic

jordan seems to be clinging to RVS logic and then using the anti-mastin/hero sentiment to ride out the wagon. this is evidenced by the fact that he can't articulate why he's voting us (other than parroting the party line that we're not "providing content").

ironically, i could say the same for jordan. a quick look at his iso shows he's:
1) whiteknighted Xay
2) tunneled on your slot and our slot the whole game nearly to the exclusion of everyone else (apparently Fear merited a mention, but he's willing to blissfully go along with the wagon even though he apparently doesn't like the company).

I personal tend to directly focus on a few people. I can assure you I'm keeping a watch on the rest of the game. I'd like to see where exactly you think we whiteknighted xay. If it's for thinking he's an easy lynch, I still agree on that. Doesn't mean he's town. An easy lynch can come from either side. A players ability isn't alignment indicative.

In regards to Fear, I don't like his posts. They've added nothing to the game, while accusing you of doing the same, which isn't helpful, but there is very little posting to deal with, and I still like your slot better at the moment.

In regards to no content, I'm sure just like you, I feel like I'm getting all sorts of information from other players in response to my posts, and that's what I need at this point in the game. Perhaps when jingle gets caught up he'll have better site meta posts for you to judge.

[Jordan_Downey]

In 643 Mastin accusing us of retaining a vote on him despite having no suspicion and that I did it because of a wagon ... The original vote was from other head. I have my own suspicions and obviously much like anti don't change our vote very much. I also have had suspicions myself as well, and the fact that all the sudden both of them have made a huge shift in how they are posting(both emotion driven posts now to fact driven posts after being called out) furthers my concern on that slot. I also can see the benefit of leaving my vote on a town slot because of the discussion generated by that wagon, I'm not very concerned with anyone getting lynched at this point, even if I thought TheNecro was town.

Also, I get the feeling that just because I voiced more suspicion on a different slot I should have changed vote or unvoted and the fact I didn't is because of a wagon, but Mastin outright just declaring someone as obvscum and then voting me is town? I don't see the logic there. In fact it looks rather hypocrital. Because it looks like mastin believes a wagon on me is more likely then on talah.

[Jordan_Downey]

(both emotion driven posts now to fact driven posts after being called out) furthers my concern on that slot.

being less pissed off after having time to cool down is apparently a scumtell

you're rooting for things to find now and it's obvious

Lets look at it from my view. I think your posts are fake. The anger from you, the poke everybody from mastin seemed fake. You get called out on it. Your wagon hasn't gone away. So you change posting styles. That doesn't seem to be as much 'time to cool off' as changing your play style as your previous one wasn't working.

[Jordan_Downey]

It's just a feeling I have from reading the posts. That have gotten stronger the more they are posting.

[Jordan_Downey]

Somewhat caught up. Mastin wagon is shit. That probably means mastin is town.

UNVOTE:

I need to

bludgeon my hydra partner for being dumb

discuss reads. Will return later.

[Jordan_Downey]

Whelp, after conferring with Jingle I'll be moving on at this point. I'm personally not seeing the Talah scum in the thread, and don't have much faith in meta, especially when it's not my experience.

Fear and spring starflower still sticking out on review.

SKOT has been pinging me recently, re-reading his iso his posts are wishy washy and I think he might include more qualifiers then me. He continuously mentions just poking Necro for reactions, just poking. 446 he calls them out for feeling evasive, but then counters by saying it's a null tell. Then 648 Necro gives you a good what for and he replies with 667, "Well I didn't really call you scum." Went from sitting on a fence to full on backtracking. Then the, I have suspicions on you but well sheep you anyways, because hey, I'm going to vote out noise instead of actually scumhunt.

VOTE: SKOT

[Jordan_Downey]

In what world Aegor? Isn't motivation by definition the only actual difference between scum and town? There are actions we see as scummy, styles we call scum styles, opportunism bussing and such, but as far as reads go, isn't motivation everything?

Nope. If an argument requires assuming scum motivation, it is not a very good one.

I think it is trying to find scum motivation versus town motivation in a play, not assuming scum motivation. I don't think TD ever mentions anything about assuming there... Maybe I'm completely off base with that one. So if you aren't looking to see if something is scum motivated what do you look for Aegor?

[Jordan_Downey]

Still need some time with all the wall posts but wanted to chime in.

Aegor's posting is scummy. I like how he's spent all game calling for Necro lynch, doesn't want to actually help push the wagon with vote at first. Leaving it on someone he thinks is scummier but is still a second choice for a lynch. See's his other attempt at a wagon that he was trying to push not going anywhere and swaps votes. The lack of content when also providing very little is also a concern.

VOTE: aegor

We also request Mastin pull is head out of the talah mistake that's going to happen and get back to hunting scum.

[Jordan_Downey]

So, TSO. Do a me favor and read your case again. Why does it suck so hard?

Now read Aegor's ISO and realize all of the actually scummy things Xayzeck has done pale in comparison to him.

About half of your case is nonalignment indicative and the other half is meh.

Now both of you stop being dumb and vote Aegor.

Mastin, either post a case on talah that isn't meta or sheep Antihero. Apparently, other me doesn't follow directions and won't tell you to take your head out of your ass, but there are other scum to find and I'm not feeling the D1 meta lynch.

[Jordan_Downey]

He kinda reminds me of Syryana in Open 526, (though I know that's ancient for you), because he's not actually refuting any points, it's just deflection, deflection, deflection. And Syryana was scum that game.

I've disagreed with TSO but up until this point thought it came from town. This is a huge reach, as there is no way someone else's meta is going to apply to Xay. It's is scummy to me. It reads to me as the wagon might fall apart at any time, lets throw everything at it, which is a null tell until you start throwing completely irrelevant stuff into it.

Thor: You mention the other weak player, I'm guessing xay, in 994. Since in reference to Necro suggestion on aegor. Although only one game with aegor, he's shown an ability to read a game and determine his outs when he dodges a lynch by claiming scum in multiball and selling the town on him effectively being a vig and he lasted to end game. Not saying he's amazing by that play, but certainly wouldn't consider that weak.

[Jordan_Downey]

It sounded to me like sarcasm in regards to joining the wagon.

[Jordan_Downey]

Also like how Thor is going to not play the game but willing to put his vote wherever.

[Jordan_Downey]

Necro wagon is dumb

Was you mean?

[Jordan_Downey]

So, hopefully Jingle well be in here with some things to say. I wanted to mention a few things.

TSO: In that multi-ball why do you think we looked town? What made us a "good fucking scumplayer?"

Also, wow. We get a three day extension so everyone decides to run up someone to potentially get lynched. Including some really HORRIBLE math by TSO stating we are l-3 when we are at l-2 with a vote count four posts up? Good job. Really hope they don't ever let you near a cash register.

SKOT: 1337 ... Did you make this horrible post just so you could take the 1337 post? What makes you "feel better about that vote" is a single post from halfway through the game at this point? Okay. I'll come back to that when I have a chance to pull up everything, but you tell us to pick a target?! How about the numerous other people that had such big cases on their scum reads and yet after a deadline extension decide it's a good time to run a player up the flag pole without actual discussion? Cause your post is about as town as what has happened these last few pages.

[Jordan_Downey]

We are a PR, but not an especially powerful one. I'll fullclaim in a minute.

On the other hand, I've got some setup thoughts I want to get out before the day ends, so no one hammer yet.

[Jordan_Downey]

Claim: Polarity locker. We can target a player at the beginning of the night and they will not be able to change their polarity. I'm not sure how utility that is, but it specifically notes that it will not be blocked by polarity, and is a 'neutral shot.'

It is positive utility to have the town at a neutral polarity, or as close to a neutral alignment as possible. This gives us extra information we can use when solving for alignment. To this end, I suggest no one switch their alignment tonight.

[Jordan_Downey]

The mod clarified that the NK can be blocked by polarity, which implies to me that 1. The scum team is larger than it would normally be. 2. This game is multiball. 3. There are multiple killing roles.

In order to accurately get knowledge from the polarity mechanic, we need to get a claim from each lynch candidate at L-1 before the hammer.

[Jordan_Downey]

^ Alignment claim.

[Jordan_Downey]

EBWOTP: The implication is an or choice. The claim is a polarity based thing, which should be obvious. No one except the person who is actually getting lynched should claim polarity, to prevent the scum from having a guaranteed kill.

[Jordan_Downey]

I'm not willing to share the particulars unless I'm absolutely sure I'm getting lynched to prevent the scum from having a night phase to discuss how to get around it. Nice try though. I'll type it up and post it to the hydra QT. Aphix is usually on to post, so I doubt we'll be unable to post it before deadline.

[Jordan_Downey]

Aphix, the post is in the QT. Post it if we get hammered or if intent is stated after discussion happens.

[Jordan_Downey]

The mod would not confirm whether there were other neutral actions, as expected. He did say the night kill is based on polarity.

[Jordan_Downey]

We got a 3 day extension in 1261.

[Jordan_Downey]

Spoiler: I Got Around to an Aegor Case!

i'm serious.

you don't get to join a game knowing full well there are hydras and then policy lynch.

we were first. replace out.

Your death is not mandated by your nature as a hydra.

I am not pushing for a policy lynch; that is your own incorrect inference.

"I want to lynch you for 'reasons.' This is not a policy lynch."

Alright Aegor I'll bite, why do you think Necro is scummy over Xay and Dry?

I think that the Necro hydra is more deserving of a lynch; that does not mean that I find it more scummy necessarily. I can believe player 1 is scummier than player 2 but still advocate for 2's lynch based on other factors, e.g. information generated by the lynch, general effect on the game, influence 2 has on other players, etc.

The hydra's posts in general are irrational, devoid of content, full of vague feelings, and extremely aggressive and defensive. One can verify this easily through an ISO.

Also why are Xay and dry scummy, in your own words.

I addressed dry in a post; ISO me and ask me again if you have questions or could not find my explanation.

Xay is gut. TBH, part of that is others' suspicions; had they not been expressed, I may not be subconsciously seeking some reason to find Xay's posts scummy. That read is definitely subject to change/solidification.

Necro is stated here as not being an alignment motivated lynch. This is by definition a policy lynch. There is no reason for Aegor to be pushing a policy lynch and refusing to call it as such. If he would have been honest about it, I would have taken this as a minor towntell. As it is, it shows a disturbing preoccupation with his own image in the thread that belongs to scum.

OK,

before

we went down the rabbit hole of bullshit with SKOT and Fear in the last few pages, where did any of this happen?

i'm going to completely disengage from aegor before i really do say something to him that gets me banned.

Chillax, man. You are more than welcome to point me in the direction of your probing scumhunting. I would expect a bountiful supply given the percentage of this thread that consists of your hydra's spam.

let me let you all in on something.

yes, i'm cranky. yes, i'm defensive. you know why? because the primary thing against us has been "no content" which is such a shitty accusation given our posting. and the most aggravating thing is that nobody is actually attempting to go to our posting and say "hey, these posts [link], [link], and [link] right here are scummy and you guys are scumfucks." the accusations have largely been "you guys suck, you're not posting content, you get in bad arguments. vote: necro" and that's it (see: fear's vote in post 390)

since there's no real substance, there's no argument to be made. the only thing i can do is go "nuh uh". and then everyone comes into the thread and wonders

why

my blood pressure shoots through the roof whenever i post in this thread.

Again, the easy counter is by pointing to the actual substance your hydra has provided. Maybe I missed it: although I have read the thread, there is a large amount of content produced each 20 mins, it seems.

Hypocrisy at its finest. I stand by hypocrisy in scumhunting as a scumtell. Further, he's not putting forward any reasons that mastinhero is a scumslot, and addresses them as if they're town, but is still voting them.

Is anyone strongly townreading Dry-Fit?

This type of post always pings my scumdar pretty hard. This is sounding out support for a lynch without committing to it. He's leaving his options open, not commiting to anything.

Not liking Aegor's push on me. He ust says my posts are bad but

doesn't give any reason to think they're scum motivated

.

Motivation is not always relevant to whether something is scummy.

This is insane. Scumhunting is all about motivation. The difference between scum and town is motivation. Aegor here is slipping and demonstrating that he's not scumhunting, but trying to portray things as scummy.

I am also completely aware of the fact that, Mastin's stance on Talah is strong enough so that, arguing against it is probably futile, leaving her alive long enough will pretty much be a huge distraction to mastin, and him flipping town would probably serve as a strong enough catalyst in making a hard-reset D2 which will probably make mastin that much more useful as town

I hope you are aware of how terrible this reasoning is. First, it assumes that mastin is town. Second, you are essentially advocating lynching a player who may be town so that another obsessive player may be useful in the future. Really?

Hypocrisy on the PL front. Further, Aegor is expressing that he doesn't see Shiny's purpose here, but he also doesn't follow through. There's no evolution of reads from this. He doesn't push Shiny to figure out why they're thinking the way they are. He clearly has an opportunity to push and develop reads here, and he doesn't even try.

Uhh... no? I take it you aren't a very guts/emotive/relationship type of player, because if you were you would know the difficulty behind making reads on players with said relationship, and how unlikely it is for a read on them to be change

Translation into English please?

VOTE: Necro if I am not already.

There is no reason here for SH's post to solidify his Necro read. He is already voting Necro, but clearly is not paying enough attention to his only tool in scumhunting to be able to know that he's voting for the lynch he's been pushing literally all day. He also continues to fail to give a good reason for his vote.

Non-voters, (please) vote. No one is in danger of a lynch, so there really is no reason not to be voting someone.

An empty call to action to the town. This is scum pretending to contribute.

VOTE: MafiaSSK

VOTE: Xayzeck

Here he is putting his vote wherever the fuck he thinks is more likely than his own lynch. He's not looking for scum, he's looking to live. This is not a town posting style.

VOTE: Jordan

The Aegor haters still have three days to mobilize.

And here, where he jumps onto us again, he still manages to show that his priority and thoughts are still revolving around himself. Where town is looking around them for scum, Aegor is looking at himself and saying "How can I not get lynched today?"

The above is why I think Aegor is the best lynch today. SKOT is also pretty good from where I stand.

[Jordan_Downey]

Hey Thor, I love your beard. It's all bushy and Smurphtastic. Now why do you seem so different this game from when I played with you last time?

[Jordan_Downey]

Oh, also, the last 2 hours or so of posting has been Jingle. I might start being a lurksack again. I'm not sure.

[Jordan_Downey]

I have no interest in doing analysis on your scumplay for you, Jordan, I've clearly said I want to lynch Xayzeck over you. If you can fool me, I think you're good at scum, and you did in that game.

Go ahead and claim if you're a PR so we can restart Xayzeck.

Okay, so if T S O doesn't want to take a guess at it. Anyone know the easy way scum looks like town in a MULTIBALL setup?

APHIX

[Jordan_Downey]

Is it because everyone looks like town next to RM. Because everyone looks like town next to RM.

[Jordan_Downey]

tldr response to skot being a moron

no I did not tell you to pick a target, that is what you did with vote. Hmm, who is someone who may be easy to deflect toward.

So you say you didn't tell me to pick a target ... But in this post ... JUST BEFORE ...

Hey, when you are getting run up, pick a target and start finding out reasons others may attend to, to try and start a counter wagon. Your representation of my engagement with Necro is entirely a misrepresentation. But hey, thanks for making me feel better about that vote.

You say specifically for me to pick a target and start a counter claim when I'm going to be lynched .... So you are obviously talking about me post the wagon forming but I obviously haven't posted so I'm not trying to find an easy target for a counter claim which you indicate I'm doing I assume by 1348 above when you say "easy to deflect toward," especially when the post you are quoting is from 600+ posts ago. Stop being stupid. Stop lying, if you aren't lying and contradicting yourself. Be clear in your posts especially in relation to your quotes.

To clarify my 727 I well go ahead and post some quotes ...

BOLD

added in by me.

yes, I am purposefully picking at things.

There is no malice here though, no ill will, just trying to gauge the slot. I can get very aggressive in my picking at things. However, it is not really about the "minor" details with me but the overall picture.

Right now I sense some evasion

, this in turn results in more picking. Sorry if it is frustrating. It is one of the things I do.

Mention purposely picking at things. Mention it being evasive.

btw, my response to such a statement is "and, so what." the reactions that I get from you are quite different than that. Now granted I don't know you or mastin for that matter. I have no baseline on your reactions and reading past games does not give them to me.

I do know there is an evasive feel. Now not all evasion feels are scum driven and can be "hyper-survival" reactions or other factors

. I have no information other than what mastin has said and taught compared to what she is doing here. Your reactions became a side-note.

Mention it being evasive but evasion isn't always scum driven. AKA null.

I like all am inconsistent. I look at patterns and reactions. When I say not a "tell hunter" or "Meta hunter" it does not mean I never use such tools. It means it is not my strength and I don't spend a lot of time trying to use those tools. I am not detail oriented to pick up on slight minor details that break one open as scum. I will not pick up on a subtle change in language or such that gives me an ah-ha that is scum. I need data, the more data I get the more I have to react to. Often times I have my gut response. Sometimes I get a lot out of poking and getting reactions like I have from you 2. You have taken my taking each game as it comes mind set but ignoring my talk about we all have experiences. I did not say totally ignore the past.

And note, in all my poking and prodding and the vote I have not once called you scum.

I have stated that I was drawing reactions and this is preciously what I did. I have in fact seen enough and felt I engaged in enough prodding after getting irritated with the idiotic scum read, which is even now more idiotic given your proclamation of being familiar with me from elsewhere. Please feel free to identify names I go by elsewhere when I don't go by peacebringer. TIA.

Now after all this you back track, WHOAH WHOAH, I didn't call you scum. Oh no. I'm just trying to read you.

fair enough... my impression can be wrong...

vote talah...

Yeah, okay. In 707 you state they are going at it and being stubborn. Which also gives a feeling of it being a null discussion, but you sheep mastin in the long run anyways, and then later state you see mastin as town in 722 . Now perhaps I'm misunderstanding you because in my view you are ALL over the map in every different direction. But I clearly see all I mentioned in that post on you, so saying it's misrepresentation is pretty far out there. Still think you are somewhere between scum and null-stupid, but certainly know your posts aren't town motivated.

So, instead of saying that I'm misrepresenting you, perhaps go a head and either a) explain yourself properly or b) accept that it's in your iso and move on. If you are town, you aren't helping town out by just being all over the map and then just responding by saying, "NOPE I DIDN'T SAY THAT. MISREP!"

[Jordan_Downey]

Alright. Tomorrow is my Friday so I'll take a look a dry-fit. Is there any actual case anywhere?

aegor is obviously our number one choice especially with 1484, in my limited experience someone with something to hide is less likely to over look something, not to mention just every post of his vibes wrong. After that I'd personally be looking at skot and I certainly know my other head has mentioned suspicions there. I don't like titus' entrance, but the slot is improved over the lurking hydra so I enjoy that.

Edited because others posting ... SH there reminded me I don't like them. I hate the whole, I'll do this if you do this, without actually dedicating themselves to the action. It's more blatant then I'd expect in scum play, but still comes post lynch as, well ... I only did it because x players also did it. It's no ones fault. BULLshit.

[Jordan_Downey]

Actually, I think that Mala is almost conftown. The particular reference she's making isn't something I'd expect scum to think of trying to fake. I'm not sure that it points entirely at multiball in the way she's thinking, but I don't think it's something scum would bring up.

Why the sad face at me, Thor?

You were bringing up unCCed as regards Jordan as though that means anything at all. There could be 4 of that role in this game and I wouldn't be surprised nor inclined to lynch anyone over it.
I also have no idea why there being 1 of that role somehow makes him less likely to be scum.
You don't seem to be processing your thoughts. Are you really scumhunting, or just trying to look like you are?

I also don't like the assumption we need a lynch. Yeah, lynches give info but so do night kills. Unless scum NK and town no lynch, we are getting information. My opinion though is not widely accepted.

Your opinion may or may not be correct - though I have no idea why you value the info of night kills and not the info of lynches, and if you like one I see no reason not to like the other.
I'd also add that, statistically, more scum die to lynches than to night kills.
And that scum flips are vastly better info than town flips.
So...

i'm paranoid of thor and him dancing around all three of today's major wagons didn't and doesn't help to calm that.

You have accurately identified that I have no issue with a number of people ending up dead.

This looks more like town Thor to me. Thor, you have my permission to continue poking people until their alignment falls out. I still support Aegor and SKOT wagons. Dry fit might be a possibility.

PereV, any chance of reasoning to support your flash wagon? If I remember correctly the only reasons anyone wanted to lynch Jon were crap.

Fuck it. Aegor wagon is stagnating and we don't have time. Dry-fit it is.

VOTE: Dry-fit

Whoopsies.

VOTE: Dry-fit

[Jordan_Downey]

1552 by Jon there is weird to me. I think he needed to add the "in my experience" qualifier a few more times.

[Jordan_Downey]

Don't be an ass, Dry-fit. At least claim your polarity if you are town.

[Jordan_Downey]

Information, Titus. We want as much information as possible.

Again, no one change their polarity tonight. Mastinhero, I plan to target you with my ability in order to confirm it, so you should try to change.

[Jordan_Downey]

When are we gonna bust Dry-fit for anything? The polarity claim, as I mentioned earlier, is part of my plan and should take place immediately before the lynch, every day. There is a point behind confirming my role, though you're right in that it doesn't confirm my alignment.

@TSO- I don't think 12 hours is gonna be enough for the Aegor wagon to get to lynch.

[Jordan_Downey]

I'd be willing to vote Aegor. I have been all day. I'm not willing to unvote to do so. You see my conundrum.

[Jordan_Downey]

I'm not telling them to claim what polarity they are. We do not know what polarity they are, unless you've got some special insight you'd like to share with the class. I just want them to attempt to change polarities from what they are now to the other option, and confirm tomorrow whether said change actually happened. Hint: it won't. I can't tell if you're being dense or just scum afraid of my plan.

[Jordan_Downey]

Fine, TSO. VOTE: Aegor My vote will be going back to Dry-fit at about 6 here because I can't guarantee I'll be on then.

[Jordan_Downey]

To anyone doubting my plan here is a brief rundown of how it doesn't hurt us to trust me right now:

1. No one's alignment is known. That means that staying the same and switching have roughly the same chances at being effective.
2. My plan effectively doesn't change anything until I reveal it tomorrow, where we will have a day phase to discuss it. This can only add content to analyze.
3. Should scum be afraid of it, then they will likely kill me tonight, resolving a slot of contention and confirming my alignment, which can only be a good thing for town.
4. If my logic is flawed, we will be able to figure that out, without having changed our play substantially.

There is no reason, at all, from a town POV not to at least humor me tonight.

[Jordan_Downey]

Fine, TSO. VOTE: Aegor My vote will be going back to Dry-fit at about 6 here because I can't guarantee I'll be on after then.

Edited.

[Jordan_Downey]

I honestly don't want an aegor vote just because tso wants it.

Still don't see anyone else sheeping you TSO, do you have a money back guarantee?

aphix

[Jordan_Downey]

We have 9 hours. I will be moving my vote in roughly 4 because I can't guarantee I'll be on after then.

[Jordan_Downey]

Then convince me of the damage following it causes.

[Jordan_Downey]

At worst, my plan does not hurt us. At best, it gives us an advantage over scum. Why not give it a chance. I promise to full reveal tomorrow, as well as the rest of my setup spec so far.

[Jordan_Downey]

The only person not voting one of those wagons is V/LA until Friday, so we need people from one wagon to shift to the other. I still plan to shift back to Dry Fit in ~3 hours if we don't get a consensus on Aegor.

[Jordan_Downey]

Nevermind. Thor is apparently anti-indecision.

[Jordan_Downey]

Aegor is L-1. Aegor please claim your role.

[Jordan_Downey]

Context, Thor. I'm saying I'm no longer planning on jumping to dry-fit to get a lynch through.

[Jordan_Downey]

I'm pretty sure you're missing the confbias or scum motivation to lynch me. Your understanding fits mine.

[Jordan_Downey]

Your argument is basically that my plan is going to fail because you will not cooperate. Am I getting that right? Not that there is no benefit to be had, nor that there is a reason not to follow it, but that you (or 'lurk-a-derps') won't. You'd better have a damn good reason should you fail the plan, because I see no town motivation to that. From my POV I believe choosing not to change polarities is optimal play today. Be ready to justify yourself if you don't agree.

[Jordan_Downey]

BTW, Titus and SKOT need to be looked at tomorrow. Just in case I die.

[Jordan_Downey]

My role is confirmable, you're being stupid. If my plan is bad, lynch me for it tomorrow. The goal here is to get as much information as possible. If you don't follow the plan then you'd best have a damn good reason. I'm promising full disclosure tomorrow, so stop being an idiot.

[Jordan_Downey]

Also, why? Fucking give us a reason or STFU. This soft defense crap is self serving bullshit, and has no purpose coming from town. Goddammit, why do I suddenly have so many scumreads?

[Jordan_Downey]

Your argument is basically that my plan is going to fail because you will not cooperate. Am I getting that right? Not that there is no benefit to be had, nor that there is a reason not to follow it, but that you (or 'lurk-a-derps') won't. You'd better have a damn good reason should you fail the plan, because I see no town motivation to that. From my POV I believe choosing not to change polarities is optimal play today. Be ready to justify yourself if you don't agree.

No, I said I am not going to let scum know what I am going to do. People will choose to do what they think is best based on there role or being ignorant of it. It has nothing to do with whether I change my polarity or not, there are others who will not. And what possible benefit is there? Maybe a polarity cop? There is no substance to your plan and thinking you can pick one person to "switch" and try and lock them is fool hardy as it tells scum something they wouldn't know right off the bat.

I WILL EXPLAIN THE BENEFIT TOMORROW. There is no town motivation behind not at least seeing this through. You're not making any reasonable arguments for why you shouldn't give my plan a shot. There is no additional information tonight. The only information is that you don't change alignments. Explain to me how that benefits scum? Our polarities are unknown. Either explain to me using logic why my plan benefits scum or be ready to explain why you didn't fucking listen to me tomorrow.

[Jordan_Downey]

We're in 'Murica. And Aegor's scumbuddies are going to lurk out the day.

[Jordan_Downey]

Alright. Jingle is going to be V/LA until Monday. I'll be here and can attempt to get information from him as necessary as we have a big of a detachment seeing I don't quite understand his plan myself.

We'd be interesting in knowing who changed polarities and for TN to acknowledge the block, but he's not asking for polarity claim.

[Jordan_Downey]

Wow..

First you claim we should lynch all the wagons for info but noooo that's not chaining info lynches.
Then, you claim that Mala is probably town for wanting to lynch you but I'm scum for possibly thinking your scum.

Also, I love how you came swiniging in on Jon assuming he's scum and ignoring the blatant scumminess by Doublade.

So, thanks for the report titus. I don't know about malakittens but part of me would love a necro lynch, unfortunately it's completely independent on alignment and isn't something I'd be pushing this game. Aside from Necro vomiting wagon analysis and buddy theory on the board today, what makes you think they are scum?

[Jordan_Downey]

Jordan, wow that's a disturbingly leading question on Necro.

I don't care for them because of their chaining lynches, ridiculous theories and arguments that assume without actually listening. For instance, the Doublade town white knight.

Doublade asked to cut short the twilight. That generally only serves scum who are afraid to slip

Okay, you just mentioned the last few posts which you certainly disagree with. So, they are solely scum based off todays play, their game theory on lynching to get the most info?

Also, what you are accusing doublade of doing is odd, but to be so obvious about it isn't normally scum MO. I've not played with them, but do they scum slip while trying to avoid a scum slip often?

[Jordan_Downey]

Just woke up after my second 16 hour shift this weekend. Have read the thread, but I need to go to work now. I'll be on to explain my plan tonight.

[Jordan_Downey]

VOTE: SKOT

Had gut suspicions from yesterday, still continuing into today. Still don't feel like SKOT has contributed anything to the game except lots of empty posts. Luckily my gut seems to match up with other heads reads, and Jingle is way better at making a case. Decided we went too long without a vote out there.

[Jordan_Downey]

Sorry about the lateness of this, I won a friend 500 dollars at a craps table last night and he got me drunk as a thank you. Posting completely slipped my mind.

The plan had a couple of different levels, but the first is purely math. Optimal scumplay with even or close to even numbers is to shoot using whichever polarity has more scum. This leads me to the belief that the scumteam had more dark players than light players. This is exploitable and gives more information for analysis.

Alternatively, with an uneven distribution of polarities, the correct play for scum is full of WIFOM, as there is no reason for anyone to stay at their current polarity, and there is no reason for anyone to either stay with their current polarity or change. The slight increase (it's now a 50%) in chance for a protect is not worth the lost information, especially since the amount of information gained increases proportionally to how much higher the odds of the NK working are.

On night 1 there were 2 choices for each player: Initial Polarity and Change. The odds of two players having the same initial polarity are .5. The odds of two players having the same polarity after changing are

still

.5. There is no reason not to have attempted to gain information last night.

The second level to the plan is that scum would naturally attempt to derail the plan. I expected this to manifest in the form of scum changing polarities. To them, they cannot afford the chance that my plan would be breaking, and as such would need to stop it from being successful. SKOT did more than just that.

No, I said I am not going to let scum know what I am going to do. People will choose to do what they think is best based on there role or being ignorant of it. It has nothing to do with whether I change my polarity or not, there are others who will not. And what possible benefit is there? Maybe a polarity cop? There is no substance to your plan and thinking you can pick one person to "switch" and try and lock them is fool hardy as it tells scum something they wouldn't know right off the bat.

This is exactly the kind of post I would expect from scum attempting to derail a plan that might screw them. Here he is dismissing the plan outright and telling everyone that it will not work. He's attempting to stop the plan from even having a chance, by suggesting that town will not even attempt to use it.

THERE IS NO TOWN MOTIVATION BEHIND NOT EVEN ATTEMPTING TO USE THE PLAN.

Going forward, each day we should claim whether we changed polarities. At some point, we will want to massclaim polarities. That will let us work backwards to figure out who could have killed on which nights, giving us additional information to analyze. We should not claim what polarity we currently are, ever, because they are included in the flips.

Claiming your polarity before massclaim is antitown.

Scum cannot afford to lie about whether they changed polarities in case they get caught.

I'll post a case on SKOT after I get off work.

-Jingle

[Jordan_Downey]

Back and responding to all questions asked of me. If anyone wants to ask more, I've got some time atm to interact.

[Jordan_Downey]

@Jordan-

what post was this initial plan that Sharpest is trying to scum-derail?

I specifically didn't post the full plan until today, just now, in the post you clearly read. I'll post the back and forth between me and SKOT where he tried to derail it under a spoiler.

Spoiler: A bunch of quotes you should have already read.

Claim: Polarity locker. We can target a player at the beginning of the night and they will not be able to change their polarity. I'm not sure how utility that is, but it specifically notes that it will not be blocked by polarity, and is a 'neutral shot.'

It is positive utility to have the town at a neutral polarity, or as close to a neutral alignment as possible. This gives us extra information we can use when solving for alignment. To this end, I suggest no one switch their alignment tonight.

The mod clarified that the NK can be blocked by polarity, which implies to me that 1. The scum team is larger than it would normally be. 2. This game is multiball. 3. There are multiple killing roles.

In order to accurately get knowledge from the polarity mechanic, we need to get a claim from each lynch candidate at L-1 before the hammer.

I'm not telling them to claim what polarity they are. We do not know what polarity they are, unless you've got some special insight you'd like to share with the class. I just want them to attempt to change polarities from what they are now to the other option, and confirm tomorrow whether said change actually happened. Hint: it won't. I can't tell if you're being dense or just scum afraid of my plan.

To anyone doubting my plan here is a brief rundown of how it doesn't hurt us to trust me right now:

1. No one's alignment is known. That means that staying the same and switching have roughly the same chances at being effective.
2. My plan effectively doesn't change anything until I reveal it tomorrow, where we will have a day phase to discuss it. This can only add content to analyze.
3. Should scum be afraid of it, then they will likely kill me tonight, resolving a slot of contention and confirming my alignment, which can only be a good thing for town.
4. If my logic is flawed, we will be able to figure that out, without having changed our play substantially.

There is no reason, at all, from a town POV not to at least humor me tonight.

I honestly don't want an aegor vote just because tso wants it.

Still don't see anyone else sheeping you TSO, do you have a money back guarantee?

aphix

I can understand the sentiment but it was not a TSO push it was more either/or here right?

Also I am not sure the value of your plan.

At worst, my plan does not hurt us. At best, it gives us an advantage over scum. Why not give it a chance. I promise to full reveal tomorrow, as well as the rest of my setup spec so far.

At worst, my plan does not hurt us. At best, it gives us an advantage over scum. Why not give it a chance. I promise to full reveal tomorrow, as well as the rest of my setup spec so far.

there is no way you are going to get full town compliance with this. 1st of all you can be interfered with or blocked so focusing on 1 player is flawed. 2nd you will not get full compliance as each person will make the decision best for there particular role. Add in lurk-a-derps who will not even read the plan. It really does nothing to narrow things in on scum and provide them less place to hide. And I personally am not going to confirm or deny what I am going to do or not do regarding polarity.

Your argument is basically that my plan is going to fail because you will not cooperate. Am I getting that right? Not that there is no benefit to be had, nor that there is a reason not to follow it, but that you (or 'lurk-a-derps') won't. You'd better have a damn good reason should you fail the plan, because I see no town motivation to that. From my POV I believe choosing not to change polarities is optimal play today. Be ready to justify yourself if you don't agree.

My role is confirmable, you're being stupid. If my plan is bad, lynch me for it tomorrow. The goal here is to get as much information as possible. If you don't follow the plan then you'd best have a damn good reason. I'm promising full disclosure tomorrow, so stop being an idiot.

Your argument is basically that my plan is going to fail because you will not cooperate. Am I getting that right? Not that there is no benefit to be had, nor that there is a reason not to follow it, but that you (or 'lurk-a-derps') won't. You'd better have a damn good reason should you fail the plan, because I see no town motivation to that. From my POV I believe choosing not to change polarities is optimal play today. Be ready to justify yourself if you don't agree.

No, I said I am not going to let scum know what I am going to do. People will choose to do what they think is best based on there role or being ignorant of it. It has nothing to do with whether I change my polarity or not, there are others who will not. And what possible benefit is there? Maybe a polarity cop? There is no substance to your plan and thinking you can pick one person to "switch" and try and lock them is fool hardy as it tells scum something they wouldn't know right off the bat.

I WILL EXPLAIN THE BENEFIT TOMORROW. There is no town motivation behind not at least seeing this through. You're not making any reasonable arguments for why you shouldn't give my plan a shot. There is no additional information tonight. The only information is that you don't change alignments. Explain to me how that benefits scum? Our polarities are unknown. Either explain to me using logic why my plan benefits scum or be ready to explain why you didn't fucking listen to me tomorrow.

He never responded to me after 1702 despite posting again before the thread closed.

Hey, mastinhero, would you please be my bestest friend ever and link me to whichever post is the best summary of your talah/jon case? I need to read that ISO and I'd prefer if I didn't have to hunt it down myself. I will if you're not nice though.

[Jordan_Downey]

The second level to the plan is that scum would naturally attempt to derail the plan.

Unless, y'know. It was a scum plan, neutral or beneficial to them, and town players reacted to it as being exactly that.

Please, mastin, tell me what about my plan is beneficial to scum. What about the posts where I explained how my plan does not hurt town in any way? Please, pick over my plan with a fine toothed comb to find any exploits I might be missing.

SKOT's posting, which Jingle is attempting to paint as being scum-motivated, is actually hilariously townposting. There was no townier way to take that stance, and frankly, it was one of the towniest stances to take towards the whole affair: "People will do what is best based on their role". Meaning if following the plan is good for their role, they'll follow; if bad, they won't. It's exactly the kind of post I'd expect from town having doubt in the plan--not scum derailing the plan. Let's assume Jordan-town; scum can derail the plan by remaining silent and using their roles in a way to circumvent and subvert the plan, making it work for them instead of against them. That's optimal scum play, in fact: turn the town's gamebreaking strategy into a web of confusion that ultimately does break the game...in favor of the scum, who know more about the setup than the town, and thus, can coordinate their actions better to cause more cohesion that the town would lack.

SKOT knew this, essentially, and pointed it out. That wasn't scumposting; that was townposting. Because he's right--the plan is flawed. I happen to think some of what Jordan has said is true: keeping roughly-even polarities is probably beneficial to the town overall. I don't think town should be switching polarities that often, either. I think any polarity shifts should be claimed, and whether they were willing or not. I also do not think claiming polarities is a good idea. That does not mean I think Jordan's plan is going to work. Nor did I particularly put effort into following it.

1. If you can find a theoretical situation where this plan can hurt us speak up now.
2. SKOT's initial stance is understandable from town. The rest of his activity is decidedly not. First, he's subtly directing people to not follow the plan. He's outright stating that it will fail. This is leading town towards not even attempting to follow the plan.
3. How is scum going to derail a plan they don't have details on, other than exactly how SKOT tried (and succeeded) to? How is scum going to turn my strategy into a benefit to them without the details? How is this plan in any way breakable?
4. So my plan is going to fail, but you're completely willing to follow it anyway? You're adorable. Please, enlighten me as to the flaws you appear to see.

I'm gone for a bit, but I should be back later tonight.

[Jordan_Downey]

Yeah that's the thing. I really don't see you convincing me that you're town. I didn't like your pred's posts.

You are talking about titus here right?

[Jordan_Downey]

VOTE: zzzx

I'm not even concerned that all of his list is scum or I'm not talking about it, suspicion tends to come from town. I don't like the fact that he says, I have these reads. I have these reads. I got a read list typed up blah blah. Then when he gets his reads, they are all crap. It's like he looked at the activity log and that's where most his reads came from. Like he is not reading the game at all or paying attention to much. It all feels quite like he's trying to look lack a lazy I don't know whats going on town and not being very successful at it.

[Jordan_Downey]

It's alright antihero. If consider it if I thought it was a good idea.

Not sure what it means currently but the Titus Thor interaction seems off right there. Well have to remember that all for going over later.

I also think zzzx posts since his wagon ran up is quite damning. I do not feel it comes from a town view.

[Jordan_Downey]

so i'm still on page 10 of this thread. forgive me for not noticing a case of innocence.
but are you self metaing? i don't like self meta.

pedit: i feel lost

I dont self meta unless I am being pressured to do so to prove how an action is real and not just an excuse I made up for this game (the reason I couldnt get the readlist here)

If only someone had asked you to finish....

^^^ This. What I'm confused on is if the had a reads list mostly written up ... Even if the document went somewhere .... He'd still have some idea of the game to actually write out SOME sort of reads list. But that's just my opinion.

[Jordan_Downey]

i hear that if you talk about ongoing games, zoraster jumps out of your closet and kicks you in the nuts

What if you don't have a closet?

Also, the wording was off, but I don't see any really difficulty in figuring out what SKOT was saying Titus.

This whole discussion about survival/evasion is about bs theory and I'm not sure I see the relevance to the game. I don't like the self vote give up I don't think town should ever self vote it cuts off information to town, but at the end of the day it's not directly an alignment tell. I feel combined with the lack of willingness to provide information or participate because he's "trying not to get lynched" is BS and scum motivation. I don't see a struggle to avoid a lynch. I don't see an attempt to build another wagon. I see a lot of whining and complaining. Maybe that's town ZZZX, if so I wish that was lynched out of him by now.

[Jordan_Downey]

I'm about to go to bed for the night, but before I do I'd like to let y'all know that I am going to get to this game. Tomorrow. I've missed too much of this game and forgotten even more, so I'd be useless if I tried to get to anything tonight.

We didn't change polarities. If anyone has not claimed whether they did, or if anyone did not claim yesterday, please do so.

If there is anything I need to address that aphix hasn't already answered, I'd be pretty happy to have you address me.

[Jordan_Downey]

lurking is one thing but he pops on just often enough to try to avoid being prodded and does NO content.

Now I know you have stuff going on. But I also don't like lurk Rach so are you the kettle or the pot?

[Jordan_Downey]

I will get to this game, but I've run out of shits to give tonight.

Tomorrow, I promise.

[Jordan_Downey]

Because choosing not to replace out is a scumtell? Fuck that. Replacing out should never have a place in the strategy of a game, the fact that it does for some people honestly disgusts me. If life is hard or you don't have time or something happens IRL, whatever, you need to replace out, it happens. But replacing out as part of a strategy is pathetic and honestly if I had a choice people would get blacklisted and/or banned is it was ever discovered they'd done it.

/TD Rant.

QFT. All alignments aside, replacements are a necessary evil and should be used only when necessary. Strategic replacements are a special type of douchebaggery that burns my soul.

Sorry about my lack of giving a shit about this game. I'll get back into it tonight and tomorrow. I plan to kill a bottle of scotch and check ISOs right now, and if I'm still coherent enough to post that'll happen. If not, expect me to be both sober and awake tomorrow afternoon.

[Jordan_Downey]

My drunken ISO's last night make me think this is towntitus. I've seen her twice as scum and once as town and this doesn't feel like the overly dismissive tunnel of scumtitus but the surety tunnel of towntitus. At this point, I'd be willing to sheep her on Doublade if that wagon got last minute support, but I feel better about VOTE: Saki than Titus.

I don't think that Saki's not replacing out is a tell, but there just isn't enough there for me to get townfeels. Further, the active lurking (popping in every few days to say nothing and then disappear again) does ping my scumdar slightly. I would have found it less scummy if he had announced V/LA and then said nothing. The behavior here shows at least some ability to show up to the thread, and it wouldn't have been much more to actually comment. Incidentally, if he couldn't actually find the time to actually comment then no posts at all would make more sense. Combine that with a lack of real content now that he's back, and I'm more ok with this than Titus.

[Jordan_Downey]

I'm here, and I'll hammer before going to bed tonight.

[Jordan_Downey]

Actually, fuck it. I can't be sure I won't pass out. VOTE: ZZZX That way I can go to bed now.

[Jordan_Downey]

Wait a minute. Titus was bussing? WTH happened there?

If we get 4 kills tonight this will be the best game ever.

Vote: Jon

5 kills. We need to Fibonacci sequence this shit.

I need to talk with my other half, but we didn't shift polarity last night. I need to figure out what the flips mean for associatives.

[Jordan_Downey]

aphix, if you see this before you see me we need to talk tonight, badly. I've seen a couple of things recently and I need to ask somebody if I'm smoking peyote or if my thought bubbles make sense. If my thought bubbles make sense this game just got easy.

[Jordan_Downey]

Before I share my thoughts, I wanted to ask Mastinhero if he thinks it's better to push solitary scum or group scum in this situation, assuming I have a theory on each.

My logic wasn't as set in stone as I thought it was, but I'm still pretty convinced that I'm right.

[Jordan_Downey]

I'm a little busy today, but here's my suspicions. I think Thor is probably the SK. I believe Jon and TD to be a scum team with possibly 1-2 more members. Not members of that team are Eddie and Rach based on their pushes today. I do have reasoning for both of these theories, but I'd like to see reactions first to gauge how accurate my reads are.

I'm leaning towards voting Thor, just to reduce the number of killing roles.

[Jordan_Downey]

What makes me an SK?

First, no one is treating you like a scumbuddy and you are treating no one like a scumbuddy. This whole "Thor is scum for being alive" thing is so stupid, especially with this being functionally multiball now, that I can't see a universe where one of the people pushing that angle isn't scum. Thus Thor is not faction scum. The Thor attitude of push everyone who is suspicious and the SK attitude of push everyone that I can without looking scummy are close enough that I'm not sure there's a difference, so I can't use that to prove or disprove my theory. Further:

Ok, I didn't really notice that. Does this mean you're seeing Saki as Town? Someone to keep around?

Yes.

As far as Thor's "not paying attention", I just got home from a weekend of camping/fishing/ drinking/ and eating. Then a long drive. I did notice two dead scum!!! that's pretty cool. And I'm dealing with a new, unexpected member of the family. A two year old Pomeranian. He's still in the demanding attention stage. So yeah, I'm a little distracted. Scum though, no.

The accuracy of my reads is exciting to me when it works.

Suspicion of Thor is going up he is still with us and yeah that is weird.

How many scum directed kills do you think we've had thus far?

The third chunk there is an odd question, and when I asked myself who I benefited from asking it, the answer that came to mind was scum looking for SK/Vig or SK looking for Vig. With that in mind it looked like vigfishing.

JD why do you think there is an SK?

Three night kills last night with two mafia flips... Titus and Doublade had nothing to distinguish multiple scumteams and I frankly don't think Werewolf makes any sense with the flavor. SK makes the most sense to me, and a strongman SK would be pretty elegant with the whole built-in-doctor mechanic.

Either way, we've discussed and we think Jon is more sure a flip than Thor (I have my doubts) and I've aired my concerns.

VOTE: Jon

[Jordan_Downey]

First, no one is treating you like a scumbuddy and you are treating no one like a scumbuddy. This whole "Thor is scum for being alive" thing is so stupid, especially with this being functionally multiball now, that I can't see a universe where one of the people pushing that angle isn't scum. Thus Thor is not faction scum. The Thor attitude of push everyone who is suspicious and the SK attitude of push everyone that I can without looking scummy are close enough that I'm not sure there's a difference, so I can't use that to prove or disprove my theory.

I just have to call out this part of the theory though. All of the points are bad, but this one is nonsensical.

He has made a town case on me.
He is using it to argue that I am SK.

I made a case for why your behavior is not group scum, yes. I do not believe you to be group scum. I do believe you to be solo scum. Those are not mutually exclusive.

@Jordan - your case is laughably bad. Why are you sheeping your SK read?

I think you're solo scum I shouldn't be voting the same person as you? How does that make any sense? I'm voting Jon because I think he's scum, not because you are voting him. I genuinely believe that you are voting him because you think he's scum as well. Of the two of you, you are the one I am more likely to be wrong about, and he has the larger wagon.

@ Jordan When I flip Town, are you still going to go after Tipthaine? What beside his supposed connection do you think makes Tipthaine scummy? I'm not seeing it. Could you flesh out your theory some more, I'm not convinced it's a Town push. As far as the "This whole "Thor is scum for being alive" thing is so stupid", and "that I can't see a universe where one of the people pushing that angle isn't scum.", prepare to eat your words.

If you flip town, I will reread to figure out where I developed my reads wrong. When you flip scum I will reread to try to find scumbuddies.

[Jordan_Downey]

@ Dryfit- I'm sorry, you asked me questions about Eddie? I assume this is the "Who has he been pushing today?" bit to which the answer is he hasn't done anything today. The reason Jon and TD aren't his scumbuddies is entirely on their end of the interactions.

Jon's scumminess is fairly apparent to me, but as a case for the nonbelievers, here goes:

Spoiler: Jon's Scum!

Scum
RachMarie
The Necromancers
Eddie Fenix

The Necromancers have pulled out of the game, and I don't know for sure what that's about. But I get this niggling they might be Town. Malakittens flipped Town, they were right on ZZZX, and a few other things make me think I've been wrong on them. I hope I'm wrong on them. Their interaction with Titus makes me want to lean Town on them.

I really get the feeling EddieFenix is Town. His interactions with Thor, as well as with Titus and a few others make me believe I'm right.

@ Rach I'll get around to reading your GTKAS, and I really, really do empathize. Though I don't have diabetes, I do deal with ongoing health issues that are unpleasant, and time consuming. Growing old, sometimes, sucks. I'll give your slot another look over, and I'll try to be open to being wrong.

I haven't read the thread through since back when Thor and I were the only ones voting ZZZX. I don't even know what happened to turn the Day back around to him. So, I'd best shut up and go read the end of Yesterday. Who knows, there may be things in that, that will make parts of this post obsolete.

TD brought this up and allowed it to be dismissed way too easily, which is the main reason I think he's Jon's scumbuddy. I could see maybe changing one of your reads over the course of a post, but these are the three people he names as scumreads and it doesn't sound like he's scumreading any of them. This kind of inconsistency does not come from someone who is actually trying to develop reads. This comes from someone who is trying to look like they're contributing, and pulling reads out of thin air to justify things. Who doesn't care about the veracity of their reads? That's right: Scum.

My utility ended long ago, so I'm disposable now. What's your reason for the vote?

This post is terrible. Just incredibly awful. There is no reason ever to post something like this as town. As scum, though, it's making himself a smaller target to any sk or vig shots. If he doesn't have utility, then they're not going to prioritize him as the kill. This just screams survivalism.

I've recently gotten home after a nice camping and fishing trip. I want to check on something, and I'll be back around.

I think it's about time to have Saki's flip. No sensible Town would want this big of an enigma at the end of the game. But the bad thing is, he's still a 50-50 flip. With no association tells, really.

Ok, I didn't really notice that. Does this mean you're seeing Saki as Town? Someone to keep around?

These two together are worth noting as Jon trying to push for a Saki lynch then abandoning the push immediately after any resistance whatsoever is shown. He's not pushing someone he thinks is scum, he's pushing someone he thinks will get lynched, then backing off when he sees evidence he was wrong. What is his opinion on Saki since then? Oh yeah, that's right:

wait are you suggesting that both Doublade and I are bussing Saki, Jon?

The game I played with Saki, he was Town, and acted like this all the way through. I haven't read any of his recent games. It's a possibility you're bussing him, or he's just Town

There's too many slots to go all out meta for this game. I know your meta, and yours seems off. It could be Meat World issues I'm seeing, but even then, why say you're more suspicious of Thor, but stop shy of calling him a scum read? It's the little things like that that keep me scum reading you. I realize that's the pot calling the kettle black, but it's the way I stand right now. If it makes you feel better, my scum read on you is wavering.

If you or Thor ever flip, I'd almost guarantee the other one will be a different alignment.

I

want

to go through and see who's scum read who, and check it against the voting record. Also I'd like to see who's Town reading who, and check out each scum case presented. I just need the time. Summer is the worst time to play Mafia for me. I just don't have the time like I do in the other seasons.

The hypocrisy is strong with this one. "I have town meta on Saki, but you might be bussing him." "I think you are playing dissimilarly to your town meta, but that might be RL." "I dislike your lack of conviction on your Thor read, but I'm beginning to waffle on my read on you." Combining that with his complaints about RL taking too much of his time, and everything about this post screams scum to me. All of his complaints about others are equally applicable to himself here. The Thor and Rach false dichotomy also makes sure he has somewhere safe to hide tomorrow should he get his mislynch.

I've started a post, then deleted it, rinse and repeated several times today. I haven't been at such a loss in a long time, if ever. I'm also going to be extremely busy until late tonight, so I need to post

something

right now.

Titus tried to make a connection to me earlier when she tried to make it appear she was coaching me.

She also bussed her partner Doublade.

Scum could be setting up Thor for a mislynch, but if so, they're being extremely cautious with it.

Saki has a bigger chance of being Town, not by anything they've done, but by Doublade pushing for their lynch.

I don't remember how Titus saw them, but I'll check later.

Those I have no intention of voting Today, Tipthaine, Peregrine, and SKOT. Probably not Jordan Downey either.

I'm glad The Necromancers are back, and I'd like to hear from them, even if it's only to call me scum.

Eddie, Dry Fit, and Xayzeck are all null to me. This is also the priority of the order I'd feel about voting for them.

I think Rach is scum, back pedaling.

Perpetual Nonsense fits somewhere, but ATM I'm not sure where.

This is the best I can do now, at least it gives some clue of where I stand.

As for a scum read on me, The Necromancers made an encyclopedia, Titus connected herself to me, and Thor has said my not noticing Doublade was wanting Saki lynched was scummy. Also I was on ZZZX's wagon, and firmly on it. Is there anything else (from anybody) that they think makes me scum? I'd be open to discussing it.

Here he is touting Saki town based on Doublade pushing him. Further, he acknowledges Titus bussing Doublade in one line, then says Saki is town because Doublade was pushing him two lines later, without any further analysis. Frankly, the inconsistency there gets to me. It reads like he's crafting reasons for reads and not looking for reads based on reasons.

The rest of the post is no better. This appears to be Jon making a scumcase for himself. I'm really not sure why anyone would ever do this, but all of the points he brings up are scummy things he does, and it adds up to a compelling picture.

I'm not going to bother prettying this up tonight, but if anyone has questions, feel free to voice them. We will get back to you when we feel like it.

[Jordan_Downey]

hmm... has jordan followed through with anything from their "grand plan"?
I don't think so
I could be persuaded to go that direction I believe.

Frankly I've done nothing recently. I was in the process of disappearing entirely, and now I'm getting ready for a major rescheduling at work. I plan on compiling the claims when I get the chance, but we've missed enough of them that I'm not sure the plan is still viable. It's definitely not useable without more information, and I don't think we're at massclaim stage yet considering no flipped investigatives or protectives. Probably tomorrow. With that said, anyone who wants to compile the list of polarity change claims would be my bestest friend ever.

..... If I did not have a better SK suspect, I would think you were SK, and thus voting you, not sure how much more clear I can be.

Who is this mysterious SK suspect? I don't see any reason not to at least name your suspicions.

Here are some of Doubleade's posts about Jordan

he's both in my "i don't care" pile and my "i kind of hate mastin's 'case' against you" pile. i want to say i'd be ok with the lynch but i want the xayzeck lynch and dry fit lynch so much more for me to be willing to compromise on that -or- aegor

don't drag me into this shit i distinctly remember saying i had bad feelings about and didn't like the jordan lynch because of how it started in the first place

lol jordan is town

jordan is town. aegor is town. please lynch xayzeck we were so close to it

more importantly as scum jordan is apparently much more into the game and less detached. they're making much longer and more involved posts there; it makes sense with heads being the kinds of players who prefer scum to town. jordan is active now, but it feels like they've stopped caring as much about this game.

jordan is town but it's going to end up being an "wow lots of people like this wagon time to sheep it" lynch.

jordan is town, but he was forced to out himself in order to derail the wagon on him

because jordan totally didn't already claim with a "lock" keyword earlier right

Let's look at what Doublade said about Saki.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: saki

quack

Sorry! I'll try to make occasional short posts (pretty much same as always) and not dumb silly dodges like Saki.

hihi

SAKI I SWEAR TO GOD

[caled]

UNVOTE: VOTE: saki yeah, titus is town.

To add insult to injury, a totally viable and justifiable Saki wagon didn't even get more than 5 votes, while ZZZX is probably going to be lynched today. ZZZX has actually done things and played his usual town meta, while Saki is... well, you know. I don't even know or care anymore if he's town or scum, but why is the ZZZX wagon so much better than his? Because Saki has an earlier join date or something?

Doublade never pushes Saki (really) until the end of Yesterday. They called Jordan Town long and loud though.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Jordan Downey

Any analysis you'd like to give with that information? You can try to make your OMGUS less obvious if you want, but your timing here could not be any more opportunistic.

PEdit: Shhh. Thor, Saki's pretending to be a real boy. Posting is marginally better than no-posting.

[Jordan_Downey]

I'm going out of town for the weekend, and my hydra buddy has been pretty mysteriously gone lately, so I'm going to have to

V/LA until Sunday, 10th August.

Hopefully I'll be able to post and will annoy all of you with an unnecessary V/LA, but just in case, there you go.

[Jordan_Downey]

Hey guys, been keeping up with this game but honestly nothing relevant has happened that I felt replying on that Jingle hasn't taken care of but to further our 3111 in regards to Jon. In 3060 I recommend everyone reread that. He calls puts the Necros in his scum read, then calls them town in the post. He puts EddieFenix in his scum list but calls them town. He puts Rach in his scum list, continues says oh they might be town I think they are town up to the point he votes them. He puts ourself in his town read pile. Later mentions he's probably not voting us, and now pulls a 180 and calls us def scum.

The fact that he is so inconsistent with his reads and provides no reasoning for his switches leads me to think Jon is scum.

I think we are still one mind in thinking TD's response to Jon posts is also scummy as she points on one mention of Jon's read slip, but does pressure him or bring up the other big slip or the inconsistency of the play. Just a hey bud, take a look at your post again.

As to the Thor aspect ... Still think he's SK.

L-1 if Xayzeck count is right, and quick count looks accurate.

VOTE: Thor

VOTE: Thor

Never thought I'd say this but thanks Xay

[Jordan_Downey]

The fact that he is so inconsistent with his reads and provides no reasoning for his switches leads me to think Jon is scum.

In the one post where I was inconsistent with the Eddie read, I made that post over a period of several hours. I added to it as I was reading different parts of the thread. The reason I even mentioned Eddie again was because TD had scum read him. I went back and read Eddie's ISO and added the comment about him not looking that scummy.

Any other inconsistencies you'd like to bring up, I'll answer to the best of my abilities, if you're interested.

@ Thor Who is scum, and who is dumb Town on your wagon? I have a feeling there's scum on it, whether they're bussing or not.

Well as I brought up you've been wishy washy on Each. You've gone from stating we are town to all but saying we are cojf scum. You've yet to state why you thought Eddie and thenecro was scum or why you now town read them. You are throwing reads in every direction but giving no logic or reason behind them. So its impossible to tell where you are coming from.

I really need to set up a different browser on all my devices for this account.

[Jordan_Downey]

PeregrineV: What was the govern about? As it didn't stop of a death. Did you misread a PM? Was it to try stopping discussion or make Thor think he was safe?

I'm going to assume Thor had a bunch of no visit results, that probably would hurt town more then anything at this point that's why there was no claim. Or polarity effects his role as well.

Honestly not sure if polarity change claims matter. As jingle has already stated we've had enough people not do them that it doesn't help to backtrack anything, but for sake of disclosure, no change.

You are correct. I'm so glad you could catch that as I remembered I was logged in on main while taking a shower.

TiphaineDeath: If you have a good case on xayzeck being SK ... With Thor flipping town now, I'm concerned on why you wouldn't bring it up yesterday. I know we were pushing a thor lynch as we felt there was a good chance he was SK, and if someone is getting lynch as SK and you have a case that someone else is SK ... I'm concerned about your town play there. Especially when you state that you don't think he's scum. You'd think he was SK if you didn't have a better SK, that leaves me to assume you thought he was town and didn't try to fight the lynch with your SK case?

[Jordan_Downey]

Yeah, we locked PV last night. We've been RNG-ing that since D2 because for the life of me I can't figure out why it's a useful role and I'm hoping it does something with someone else's role. Possibly stopping a mafia ability to change someone's alignment.

SKOT, I'm not sure if you're being purposefully dense, but the first part of the plan fell apart when we didn't stay close to neutral alignment. The second part was always a post mass-polarity claim, and with the lack of people actually claiming change or not change it's not really worth balls at this point.

[Jordan_Downey]

VOTE: jordan

All aboard, guys and girls!

A few thoughts. Why has no one called us out on wagon hopping? Why would polarity locking be anti-town?

Does not compute.

VOTE: Perpetual Nonsense

[Jordan_Downey]

Your jumping onto my wagon based was based on PereV as far as I can tell. That with your implication that you don't think polarity locking would be anti-town doesn't jive. These two things do not make sense together. Please explain.

[Jordan_Downey]

It locks before polarity changes, which are before other actions.

[Jordan_Downey]

Sure I'm willing to claim my targets going back to the beginning.

I locked Mastinhero N1.
I locked TD N2.
I locked Titus N3.
I locked PerV N4.
I plan to lock someone new tonight.

I have no knowledge, or choice, of the polarity when I lock it. Honestly, I've been a bit baffled as to what my power is supposed to do. My best guess is that scum has some method of manipulating the polarity of others, and my role is intended to dick with that. Possibly there is some role that interacts with mine to some benefit. I have no idea if any of the missing kills are because I got lucky, nor do I know if I helped with killing Titus. If anyone I lock flips without the locked modifier then we'll know that I was useful. Otherwise, I have no way of knowing. I don't know how other people see my role, given the bias of the PM saying town bulb sent me, but the power is confusing as hell and I can't wait until the game is over to figure out what it was supposed to do.

[Jordan_Downey]

I'll yell at the RNG later to take into account claims.

What would you suggest I do with my power? I'm open to thoughts on how to use it better.

[Jordan_Downey]

Although, yeah, that means odds are I've been useless this game.

[Jordan_Downey]

Looking at this back and forth I think you're operating under the impression that the lock is permanent. It only stops polarity changing on that night.

I'll yell at the RNG later to take into account claims.

That would be you, the player, that would do that. Just like I'm sure you didn't include dead people or the "no one tonight" categories in your "list".

What would you suggest I do with my power? I'm open to thoughts on how to use it better.

Locking scummy players into their polarity seems the smartest thing. Or, just NOT using it until either of you can figure out the best town use for it, if any.

There's this handy list in Post 1 that reads Alive players, because our mod is good at doing his job. I used that. I was attempting to use it like a jailkeeper in a game I wasn't paying enough attention to. Was RNGing it a good idea? Probably not. Was it worse than not using it at all? Maybe. I still think there was a reason behind my role, and will continue attempting to figure it out unapologetically.

[Jordan_Downey]

I've been trying to get a xay wagon for forever and a half, but yes, the wagon on you, PN, has plenty of validity or I wouldn't be voting you. Though to be fair I am voting you more for recent reactions than anything else.

I too am surprised I haven't been lynched for not really doing anything

I'm a bad person but this post ALONE makes me want to lynch him, but I feel like we have as much chance lynching scum/sk as we do lynching town/vig here. The other thing that kills me on the xay front is the lack of a vote along with lack of other activity. Yes that goes for saki and rach as well, but xay been here and posted and still isn't doing anything. Isn't pushing anything. Isn't using his vote. Which indicates to me day activity isn't important to him this game.

I'll consult with jingle about this.

[Jordan_Downey]

Does any vote have the support? We are like the most indecisive town ever.

Everyone should post a list of who they're willing to lynch and we can go from there, that way we don't get stuck at deadline, again.

[Jordan_Downey]

Does any vote have the support? We are like the most indecisive town ever.

Everyone should post a list of who they're willing to lynch and we can go from there, that way we don't get stuck at deadline, again.

You could vote Saki for survival.

What? You want me to join a vanity wagon because I think we're bad at reaching a consensus? How does that make any sense at all?

[Jordan_Downey]

Looked at PerV's ISO, closest I could find to a crumb would be the Necro thing, but I don't think that makes sense as a cop crumb because of how easily he abandoned it. I think if it were a cop crumb he would've continued pushing there. I would appreciate a second set of eyes, though.

[Jordan_Downey]

Still if you're scum, you come and hammer this townie.

You don't even know if scum were already on the wagon, unless you're scum.

I was unfortunately thinking the same thing. The logic is flawed. What if any remaining scum are within DrippingGoofball, Jon_h61, TiphaineDeath? That would mean no scum to hammer. Not to mention he was at l-2 as far as I can see at deadline. Even if he was town and there were two scum left off the wagon, I don't see scum quick hammering when it's pretty apparent we have a vig. That's suicide.

Sorry, could have sworn I logged in on hydra to post that.

[Jordan_Downey]

Sorry about that, Bulb. I promise a third won't be necessary. Life's been a little bit hectic and I genuinely forgot to keep up with this game. Yeah, I'm an asshat.

What a dumb wagon.

no, your being dumb by not being on it. Read PV's posts. Seriously. Ignore Saki's cherry picking one he can twist. Cop calls a player scum multiple times you lynch that player. Period. You are being a stubborn cuss for not cooperating.

This is like, the shittiest reasoning. I'm going to go over both of the wagons and hard reset, but I'm totally 0% behind this reasoning. It is clear that PerV did not have a guilty on Saki. Saki has pointed that out. You're

still

arguing his lynch based solely on PerV having a scumread on him. If SKOT isn't scum here, I don't know what to think.

I'm also giving up on syncing with my hydra partner, because we just can't seem to make the time to talk to each other.

[Jordan_Downey]

Yeah, so VOTE: SKOT

The Saki wagon is damned terrible. I could be convinced to switch to PN, but SKOT is more likely scum IMO.

[Jordan_Downey]

Yeah, I'm an asshat.

I'm fully being Jingle being an asshat. Also fully behind our vote.

Honestly thought I had posted a bit more recent in here, but in a big decision point where I might be leaving my employment and it's been a little stressful.

[Jordan_Downey]

Yeah, so VOTE: SKOT

The Saki wagon is damned terrible. I could be convinced to switch to PN, but SKOT is more likely scum IMO.

so please enlighten me oh great-wise hydra why you consider Saki wagon damned terrible?

The whole. There's no cohesive case. The biggest reasoning I can find for a case is "PerV said he was suspicious about Saki." There is no risk to jumping on this wagon, because you're putting the reasoning of it entirely on the shoulders of a dead player. There is exactly zero reason that PerV's role PM would make his reads any better, and yet you're making the argument that because he was a cop his suspicions that obviously don't have a result backing them up are somehow better.

IKA sheeped you on that shitty ass read. PN voted out of self preservation, which

might

be town, but is definitely not goodvotes. Saki voting himself is almost as expected as the sun shining in the morning from what I've heard.

Especially given the fact that I found PerV's case about as convincing as a kid in a bedsheet on Halloween pretending to be a ghost, I'll stand by my: "It's a shitty wagon." statement.

Sorry Bulb.

[Jordan_Downey]

SKOT is town, what is this rubbish?

You

will

need to explain this thoroughly tomorrow. For now, I can compromise on PN.

VOTE: PN

You'd better have some damn good reasoning DGB, cause I can't see a reason for town to act like he's acting.

[Jordan_Downey]

L-1 BTW.

[Jordan_Downey]

DGB, I believe you owe me a reason why SKOT is town. With yesterday's information please.

[Jordan_Downey]

This might be mylo, btw. I seem to remember a 6 scum 1 SK theory.

That might mean massclaim here, because we can't afford to mislynch.

I would prefer a popcorn starting with Rach.

Does anybody know what ika's power did?

[Jordan_Downey]

DGB, we had a question for you.

SKOT- Where did the third kill come from then if you are so sure there isn't an SK? Do you think at this point SCUM had a one shot extra kill? Did you have two shots at some point? Because with all the flips there isn't a way this is multiball.

The fact there isn't a CC claim to SKOT yet either means someone is still not on board, or he's actually vig although I could see him thinking he could 1v1 at least for another night, mislynch and a kill who two puts him close to wining the game as scum/sk, but then certainly gets him there for town as well, so we'll see. Still doesn't explain the three kill night, and it's adamant stance there is no SK concerns me that he's the one pulling the trigger. So I don't have time to consult with jingle and he's more experienced but there is where I stand on the game.

TOWN PILE-
SKOT: Vig. I do agree that SKOT repeating he is town is a concern to me. You post something and people read it enough it starts effecting they'll judgment. It's a manipulative play. Same with his attempt currently to strong arm DGB. All red flags. My assumption with his play is he isn't scum, but maybe he's the third party we are looking for.

UNSURE.
RachMarie: lurksack even considering whatever is going on. In a newbie game with her as IC she conceded that she lurks as scum and it's a valid tactic. If she does it in that situation I'd see her doing it in this game.
Saki: Still would love DGBs reasons Saki is town. I definately don't by the cop having a scum read on saki, means saki is scum.
Xayzeck: Hasn't really contributed much to the game. But from what I've seen is common to parrot whatever is going on.
DrippingGoofball: Still waiting on reasons Saki is town.

[Jordan_Downey]

well then let me tell you what... I know there is a vig, because it is me.
I killed Titus, Ki-Gi, and TD. I also tried to kill Zzzx but my polarity is off. I had thought of killing you based on PV's suggestion but I opted for Zzzx instead. I have no idea who killed Double- as no one has taken responsibility for that kill and it was not me. There is no serial killer.

How can that last sentence be any clearer? Also how does repetition not actually influence people? You do realize that is a big stand by in marketing which has a firm basis in psychological studies. Either it means you are trying to convince others your yourself. Maybe your the unique one of situation of all of man kind but unlikely. Rather you are purposefully trying to be manipulative is to be figured out. Not to mention you pretty much just threated DGB ...

oh and DGB after leading the PN mislynch... well you really should sheep here in spite of your declaration of skaki as aggressive town. You clearly have been wrong on some things. Well, unless you are scum partner with Saki...

You pushed a mislynch yesterday. You are scum if you don't help lynch saki today. That is what that says. Period.

But other then trying to point out a poor tactic that hopefully you'll take thought in, this discussion isn't going to further the game for us. I really want rach to actually get in here and play, though I'm starting to think she might just play poorly as scum and that's why she lurks. As everyone seems to want to let lurkers lurk until the endgame, and hopefully DGB provides some good insight here as well.

[Jordan_Downey]

It is a scum tell, especially where I come from that scum often excessively focus on some factors that take attention off of them. In this case, the scum team had it in mind that there was a SK (not a vig). So they started talking about it. TD went on and on and on how Xay has to be a SK. Saki comes in today again focused on SK. It is a scum tell. There are related ones to that, but it does happen quite often and is happening here.

The most compelling case I've seen on Saki yet. Why the fuck couldn't this be said yesterday?

@Rach- I have great sympathy for your RL issues, but they don't help me with your alignment. On the other hand, I hope you have an easy move and love the new neighborhood.

TSO, Light Locked Vanilla Townie, killed Night 1.

Nero Cain, Town Deflector, killed Night 2. His polarity was Dark at the time of his death.
Shiny Hydreigon, Vanilla Townie, killed Night 2. Their polarity was Light at the time of their death.

Doublade, Mafia Goon, killed Night 3. Their polarity was Dark at the time of their death.
Malakittens, Town Polar Shifter, killed Night 3. Her polarity was Dark at the time of her death.

Titus, Dark Locked Mafia Goon, killed Night 3.

Ki-Gi, Mafia Polar Majority, killed Night 4. His polarity was Dark at the time of his death.

Dry-fit, Dark Locked Vanilla Townie, killed Night 4.

PeregrineV, Town Cop, killed Night 5. His polarity was Dark at the time of his death.

TiphaineDeath, Light Locked Mafia Goon, killed Night 6.

Ika, Town Polar Linker, killed Night 6. His polarity was Light at the time of his death.

This leaves two days of two unclaimed kills.

We need to discuss the whole SKOT dynamic in our hydra QT, but I fully believe he has been acting in a protown manner. The shots he's claimed make sense. That he wasn't concerned after N2 about a possible SK when neither kill was his is mildly concerning.

[Jordan_Downey]

Two things that jump out here to me that is a concern.

One sorry I wasn't clear, I do understand you have things going on IRL Rach that is understandable. What isn't understandable to me is you seem to respond if someone says anything directed to you, and it feels to me in short order. You responded to my in what, less then two hours? Which indicates to me you are following the game. But you haven't provided any content for almost a month now, what you have provided is very neutral information. Like you are trying to stay on the back burner and not get noticed. When you have posted recently you also haven't participated in the game. If you can't participate I'd honestly wish you would have replaced out a month ago at this point. The fact that you haven't and continue to sit in the background makes me think you aren't town.

I'm also concerned with DGB post 3803. He mentioned lynch Rach tomorrow. His bases is on lurking. I don't see any other stance on it there. Which might sound hypocritical but my viewpoint on Rach is a little deeper then just lurking or having other stuff going on. Then doesn't mention Rach for awhile. What mostly concerns me on DGB is he's testing the waters on Rach. He's not taking a strong stance there. He's stuck his votes on PerV and then PN. Hasn't voted anywhere else. I also feel like his posts aren't from a confident, assumptive nature I'd associate with a town pushing a lynch. And how he's conftowned multiple people is beyond me. I get the SKOT thing now, but not prior, I'd perhaps want some explaining here as perhaps I'm just a moron.

[Jordan_Downey]

I send all like-polarity actions used on me back at the user instead of absorbing them. (Which is why I guessed what a "Deflector" was.)I was not told if the actions I send back are successful or not or even what polarity they are.

So are you told if you are targeted? I'm also particularly concerned about mentioning what polarity they are ... By they I'm guessing you are saying the person or the action .... but honestly, why would you include that ... When you say you send all like-polarity actions back at the person. The polarity is the same as yours .... Not to mention you don't know if it's successful .... Does your role PM indicate it would be successful? As since you have the same alignment as them ... they couldn't affect themselves, so it wouldn't be successful unless your role reverses the polarity .... Your role doesn't seem valid with how you explain it.

[Jordan_Downey]

I'm confused as to what utility your role has for town. Also, the interaction with both tracker and cop seems weird. Stand by while the hydra discusses.

I think it likely that we are either in 3v2v1 or 4v1v1. There are 2 kills that came from dark polarities last night. One is probably protown-SKOT. The other is probably antitown. For this reason, I think that tonight I should lock someone we determine beforehand and SKOT should shoot from the light polarity, This should either A, confirm that player as not having killed ika or kill scum. This would prevent at least one of the NK's tonight from killing town. On the other hand, this makes it very probable that SKOT dies tonight. SKOT, what do you think of this plan? Everyone else, do you see any flaws in my reasoning?

[Jordan_Downey]

If we lynch someone of the dark polarity, then we definitely don't do this, as it means killing the vig for no gain.

[Jordan_Downey]

That sound like a scum claim to me.
Lynch him. No loss.
I am going to do what I think is best. I am not going to follow any plan suggested by someone who could be scum.

I'm hearing "No, I wouldn't like you to lock in my vig-target's polarity to stop them from switching polarities and would prefer to play a WIFOM game." Is that right?

I'm also leaning towards saki being scum based on the claim. It sounds like it's designed to make him a bad NK target, and with a claimed vig sounds survivalistic, but I want a chance to talk to my hydra partner. I'd also like you to think through the plan and reconsider it. If there is a way that it benefits scum, then we can drop it but I think it gives us the highest chance of hitting scum.

[Jordan_Downey]

VOTE: Saki

WIFOM games it is.

SKOT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmHeP9Sve48

[Jordan_Downey]

Honestly. Can someone tell me why DGB is considered town to you? PN push and mislynch. Testing the waters with Rach but not trying to make a case or push there. His Saki is SOOOO TOWN it's not funny but I'll vote him in what mylo/lylo? And now us. This guy is beyond all over the place. Could someone explain to me here your thoughts?

I'm not completely sold on scum saki but I think the other head is much more convinced. At this point due to the various things above I'd much rather see someone out of rach/dgb ... Possibly xay or saki next. I'm thinking if there are two scum left it's most likely rach/dgb.

[Jordan_Downey]

Next, as in order of preference.

[Jordan_Downey]

Welp, followed up with jingle. Honestly at this point, DGB if you are town. You are providing us no possibility of winning this game. I feel at this point you are trying to be so obviously scummy that we decide to think you couldn't possibly be scum, and hopefully everyone else can see that.

VOTE: DGB

[Jordan_Downey]

Jordan why were you so confident in L-1ing Saki?

2 big reasons. At that point, I was almost fully convinced he was scum based on what I thought he had claimed. (I was wrong in my reading, more on that in a minute.) Second, if scum does quickhammer here, there is a very good chance they will get shot.

On the matter of Saki's claim, somehow, on my original read of it I managed to get that he was a BP/Ascetic with a 50/50 shot at having the Night Action directed at him return on the user. Which would be a scumclaim. There is no way I could see anyone claiming ever being town.


As far as reads go, we feel fairly secure that SKOT at the very least claimed the shots he actually made. I think that raises the odds of him being a protown killing role dramatically.

For me, Xayzeck has been a solid meta town read for most of the game. I know that he's been a little apathetic in mafia games in general recently. He hasn't shown the aggression I see when he's scum, even when he's apathetic scum. Aphix disagrees, but I'm forcing him to sheep me on this one.

Saki has been putting pressure on keeping the thread moving. He's been pushing reads and making waves, and generally attempting to solve the game since he came back from what I seem to remember being a site wide flake. My one concern here is the way his reflection-thing works with cops and trackers. Hypothetically, if a cop targets him and they're the same polarity, then the cop gets a result of his own alignment, right? That seems incredibly useful as scum. I don't even know what result a tracker would get. "Your target visited you.' or "Your target visited himself." both seem possible, and both seem like results I would see as town as a tracker.

Rach is a big ball of null to me. She's been prod-dodging and lurking all game, but I've been around enough to know town does that just as much as scum does. Aphix is pretty much convinced she's trying to fly under the radar using RL as an excuse, but I don't get the feeling that she would be the kind to do that. I would lynch based on PoE, but I'm more convinced by far on DGB.

DGB recently has been pushing every way possible, and it feels like scum survivalism. Her vote hopping doesn't look like she's trying to solve anything, and her reaction to SKOT's pressure to vote doesn't read like "I'm sheeping a town-read." but more like "Please don't suspect me." This is easily my biggest scumread.

[Jordan_Downey]

Also, after a look at the flips and some thinking, I don't think 6 scum makes sense. There's not enough town power to make up for that big of a scumteam, IMO.

That means we are likely in 4v1v1 territory today.

[Jordan_Downey]

Also, after a look at the flips and some thinking, I don't think 6 scum makes sense. There's not enough town power to make up for that big of a scumteam, IMO.

That means we are likely in 4v1v1 territory today.

you really should've listened to me like a week ago yo

so if the 3 kill thing is vig/scum/sk

then skot's clear?

With his claim and no CC. What do you think Xay?

[Jordan_Downey]

V/LA: Friday 9/19 til Sunday 9/21

For the Jingle head.

[Jordan_Downey]

Also SKOT is clear unless he gets shot or a vig flips. I'm 100% convinced that a vig exists. If he's not the vig, the vig will shoot him.

[Jordan_Downey]

This is me saying don't CC as a vig. Feel free to CC as an SK.

[Jordan_Downey]

So SKOT, aside from cop stated he didn't like Saki, which there is evidence that he wasn't sold himself of that read ... Could you surmise your case on him for me? Cause I don't remember one currently, just you screaming he is scum. Which hasn't been convincing.

That's ME!

[Jordan_Downey]

We're fine with the Rach lynch. Seeing as that seems to be where the support is DGB can wait.

I'd say I'd be interested in SKOTs reply but at this point I'm sure it's more about Saki-scum, so I'm not sure if we'll gain anything from it.
Including the fact either he is the vig as he claims to be, the actual vig'll sort it out or we'll have a vig flip and we'll have a lynch tomorrow.

VOTE: RachMarie

[Jordan_Downey]

Fuck. And I was certain DGB was scum. Sorry SKOT, I really should have sheeped you.

In other news, did anyone catch the saki scumclaim? Nope? Huh. I'll explain in a minute.

We locked Kai last night because of the Rach flip. We were sure that Saki was town. We thought DGB was the one who was more likely to shoot us, and were hoping that SKOT would survive. We thought vig in LYLO would be better than us. Kaiverian is scum because e's trying to convince us that town has already lost. We haven't. We have a psuedo doc effect in the polarities, which means we have a chance.

Now, to saki's scumclaim:

beats me

I was dark going into last night

Saki was "dark going into last night." which is all well and good until you realize that was yesterday's polarity. Saki is claiming to have been dark yesterday. Why is this a scumclaim? Yesterday we had two light aligned flips. That means we had two kills sent by players of the dark polarity. This wouldn't be a huge issue until you realize there can only have been two players of the dark polarity yesterday. One was ika. Saki just claimed to have been the other. Thus Saki just claimed to have shot two nights ago and hit ika.

DGB we can still win this. We play kingmaker for Kai, or we lock Kai's alignment and hope to god he can't shoot us tonight. We still have a chance. Don't throw the game here.

VOTE: Saki

[Jordan_Downey]

UNVOTE:

UNVOTE:

[Jordan_Downey]

There's no way that Skot didn't shoot saki last night. That means that saki is light polarity. We don't know for sure Kai's polarity. We lynch Kai, then I lock Saki into light polarity and we both go light polarity. He won't be able to kill either of us.

Unless you're dark polarity, in which case we know every polarity right now and can lynch either of them.

[Jordan_Downey]

TiphaineDeath, Light Locked Mafia Goon, was night killed.
Ika, Town Polar Linker, was night killed. His polarity was Light at the time of his death.

2 light flips. Two dark aligned people. Not a hard leap to make to "everyone who was dark aligned has a NK." Saki claimed that he was dark aligned.

[Jordan_Downey]

DGB we can still win this. We play kingmaker for Kai, or we lock Kai's alignment and hope to god he can't shoot us tonight. We still have a chance. Don't throw the game here.

What's the difference between lynching Saki or Kai, given that both are scum, then?

If we know the alignment of one of them, I can lock that alignment and we can both switch to that alignment. A no lynch here is the only way that doesn't work, because I can't lock two scum. We know saki's alignment, thus saki is the one we should keep around.

Kai is arguing, because e knows if we follow my plan then he can't win.

Kai, if you are town, stop voting for a no lynch in possible lylo, thanks.

[Jordan_Downey]

What is your argument for saki is town, Kai?

[Jordan_Downey]

DGB, don't end this yet. I need to think about this and see if we have an out.

[Jordan_Downey]

WTF?

I lock a player for one night.

[Jordan_Downey]

Holy shit. Has that seriously been a thing this game?

[Jordan_Downey]

I've realized that town cannot reach the majority to lynch one of the scum, because the scum realize that I can stop them from killing. I'm not going to lock anyone tonight. Scum, the only thing I can say is be absolutely sure you can actually win with a tie. I know in some setups one scumteam beats another if they tie LYLO. Are you sure that you can win together?

VOTE: No Lynch

Hopefully tomorrow happens.

[Jordan_Downey]

We'd need 3 votes to lynch him. We only have 2 votes.

[Jordan_Downey]

VOTE: Kai

[Jordan_Downey]

Town + Town wouldn't do it until they had thoroughly considered all the options and discussed it beforehand, rather than just quickwagoning me out of the blue like morons.

Town + Scum wouldn't do it because then the lone scum on the wagon would be handing the hammer to other scum and therein maximizing the chances that they die during the night.

T+T did do it. And it's fucking obvious why. You're scum. Saki's scum. If we can lynch one of you, I can lock the other one and we can survive to win. Which is exactly why no one is hammering here.

There is no method by which town gets a majority here, because neither scum is going to vote for the other one. I played my hand too early realized too late that if one of you dies I can stop the other from killing us. The only hammer that can happen at this point is on me because neither scum is going to vote anyone else.

[Jordan_Downey]

Although... I suppose that we theoretically could be in 3v1 if the mafia was only a 4 person scumteam. In which case no lynch is still the best option. Which would mean Kai is town.

VOTE: No Lynch

[Jordan_Downey]

Jordan just told us he locked Kai and is now saying he didn't

I'm guessing you think a townie would be bullshitting like that about a role action that could potentially make or break the game?

I did lock Kai. Last night. He will be able to change polarities tonight. DGB can confirm that, because I locked her slot N1. Lynching me is an auto-lose for town. Good try though.

[Jordan_Downey]

I locked Kai. Last night. He could not change polarities. Last night. You two are scum. If only one of you is alive going into night phase, I can lock you. You will not be able to switch polarities. DGB and I, as town, can become the same alignment as you. You will not be able to kill us. You will lose to the lynch tomorrow.

Really, this isn't a complicated concept.

[Jordan_Downey]

I thought everyone understood that. If you look at my play it's fairly obvious that I haven't been trying to hide that it only stops someone changing for one night.

[Jordan_Downey]

We locked Saki.

[Jordan_Downey]

Sooo. I don't get why DGB would claim to be locked as any alignment. Please tell us. I'll talking to myself tonight. TYIA

[Jordan_Downey]

So, we're in agreement that one of Saki/DGB has to be scum because of the flip yesterday and the claims. I think it's Saki because he as good as claimed scum yesterday. Other me thinks its DGB because of the entrance today. There is a chance that both of them are scum, in which case Kai must be town. Neither of us thinks Kai is town.

Fuck it.

VOTE: NoLynch

I need to keep thinking, and there's not much any of you can say that won't just confuse the issue more. I think No Lynch is our best bet now, especially since I don't trust myself to lynch right anymore. Fuck this game, it makes my head hurt.

[Jordan_Downey]

Kai obviously shot Saki looking to hit town. DGB, anything to say before I vote?

[Jordan_Downey]

Actually fuck that.

VOTE: Kai

[Jordan_Downey]

I'll assume that being neutral means that all your actions go through and all actions work on you. In isolation its a double edged sword and thus difficult to place on town or scum. I will note that it fits Jordan's claimed role particularly well.

Quite a jump here from no information.

You also claimed the polarity that killed Saki.

Either you're neutral scum whose action always goes through or your Light aligned scum who got a kill off on Saki last night.

DGB, end this game.

[Jordan_Downey]

Yeah... Kai's still scum. DGB, let me know if you need evidence. Otherwise, I'mma gonna go play RPGS.

[Jordan_Downey]

Oh, this isn't over? Hi Kai. You're still scum. Your argument of me being "anti-town" when voting the confirmed scum is pretty laughable.

I'm light aligned. Kai claiming light aligned as well when the Day polarity is Neutral was what raised my eyebrows. My action is a neutral shot that resolves before any other actions. I, however, am not neutral. That made me realize that you were conftown, DGB, as dark aligned you couldn't kill Saki. Whether Kai is neutral (which seems likely given his preoccupation with that) or light and somehow you're doubledark Doesn't really matter to me.