Mini 1630: Edgar Allan Poe uPick GAME OVER!

[Catastrophe]

Is there a sample VT role pm?

Why did you want this, please?

Curious to hear this as well.

Hello everybody!

Initial reaction to PL's claim is that the slot is town. Seems like a pretty well-orchestrated first post for a scum hydra. Will pass this by T S O too to see what he thinks but I wanted to get a first post in.

Also,

VOTE: Purloined Letter

[Catastrophe]

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

OK so I'm getting done with holiday stuff and will be able to post more in depth during the next couple of days but for now we need a prod-dodge and I'm going to throw some stuff into it.

@FTL: I'd just like to point out that we haven't said anything since our first post. That's why we didn't follow up on the question.
@Policy: Why is Lynx obvtown again?
@copper: What exactly is the "shallow observation" you're talking about in #160?
@copper: Please explain the phrase "first to brake off the wagon on a more or less obvious town now" in post #142. Who is the obvious town you're talking about, how did we "brake off" the wagon and what is scummy about that?

UNVOTE: Purloined, obviously.

Some observations:

-FTL seems town to me. There's the reasoning behind asking for a public VT PM (I was also a tad confused by the "morbid" name), but I also realized that scum would be more likely to PM the mod and ask for a public VT PM to be posted, as opposed to asking publicly in the thread.
-Somebody questioned my reasoning on Policy being town. I've realized now that there are more reasons to treat PL as a townread: If they're telling the truth about their role, they likely get NK'ed pretty early or, given enough time, their role can confirm itself if we get two lovers dying. I don't see scum having a loverizer because that basically gives them an extra kill.

I haven't heard from TSO yet, but I'm hoping now that we're past all the holiday stuff we'll become more active.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

@Policy: Why is Lynx obvtown again?

Have you read his posts?

-Ceph

This answer is you basically saying "because."

Tell me why.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

Well I was going to walk in here to yelll and ceph and reign orcinus back to the driver's seat but then lynx kept posting and ???


PL gets no townpoints for that opening, he literally went down the "what makes morph townread something on the first post" list and checked every box as he went. Which seems too deliberate and targeted at me?


P-edit: I expect some amusing walls in response from copper, now having played with him once and seeing his style.

Nope, don't like this post at all - the ego in it is off.

I actually have ffery-as-mod/gamedesigner meta here, but i'm not entirely sure it's worth discussing today.

No, it's not.

Lynxkuroneko

Are you a miller?

This is a stupid at best and scum at worst rolefish.

Reconnaisance.

Oh, its worth it. No matter the outcome.

Please leave this thing alone, it's so clearly town.

Is there a sample VT role pm?

Why did you want this, Faster than Light?

@Lynx: Do you think there are scum on your wagon? If so, who do you think they are?

my faction looked scummy but i knew I was town so i had to double check

orci's first post reconfirmed me but i had to triple check

This is very, very town, however, as I had the -exact- same reaction.

Catastrophe is pinging a little for me, although I don't have anything substantial other than tacked-on interest in why we asked for a sample pm and then no real substantial followup on that (unlike bookitty)

OK so I'm getting done with holiday stuff and will be able to post more in depth during the next couple of days but for now we need a prod-dodge and I'm going to throw some stuff into it.

@FTL: I'd just like to point out that we haven't said anything since our first post. That's why we didn't follow up on the question.
@Policy: Why is Lynx obvtown again?
@copper: What exactly is the "shallow observation" you're talking about in #160?
@copper: Please explain the phrase "first to brake off the wagon on a more or less obvious town now" in post #142. Who is the obvious town you're talking about, how did we "brake off" the wagon and what is scummy about that?

UNVOTE: Purloined, obviously.

Some observations:

-FTL seems town to me. There's the reasoning behind asking for a public VT PM (I was also a tad confused by the "morbid" name), but I also realized that scum would be more likely to PM the mod and ask for a public VT PM to be posted, as opposed to asking publicly in the thread.
-Somebody questioned my reasoning on Policy being town. I've realized now that there are more reasons to treat PL as a townread: If they're telling the truth about their role, they likely get NK'ed pretty early or, given enough time, their role can confirm itself if we get two lovers dying. I don't see scum having a loverizer because that basically gives them an extra kill.

I haven't heard from TSO yet, but I'm hoping now that we're past all the holiday stuff we'll become more active.

--tool.

I agree with everything here except the questioning of Lynx.

Am I the only one who keeps looking at Varsoon's vote as RVS?

Because it sounds like RVS to me

But at the same time 168 makes a catastrophe/ftl scumteam unlikely

pity

What relevance does this have to anything?

VOTE: catastrophe

choo choo

to those who can't tell this was the head that hasn't posted until now

Yeah, it was the first really illogical post from the hydra.

@Catastrophe
I read lynx as more or less confirmed because starting the game with the idea of getting lynched, admitting you did so, still ask to get lynched and ask if you can reveal why is not something I see in the range of plays of Lynx scum, if you read his scum qt and how he describes himself in general, he is player conscious of being new to the game and thinking he is not very good, so it makes perfect sense to me that he would be willing to sacrifice himself to give town some sort of boon, while it's extremely unlikely he comes prepared with a risky gambit to confirm himself as scum.

[Catastrophe]

Missed the last quote - I agree with it, but I don't see how tool was magically expected to have read his scum QT.

[Catastrophe]

All of this is TSO - I should probably try to set an example by signing, so I'll do that from now on.

[Catastrophe]

Town:

LynxKuroneko (claim)
Faster than Light (asking publicly + wc confusion)
Catastrophe (we're fucking obvtown)

Nulltown:

Policy Lynch (their first post was good, but the reason they get called town for it was the SK part. I thought the same. However, their read on us makes no sense.)
Bookitty (A lot of her play so far has had pro-town motivation, from a skim. The only one here who's actually being townread for play.)
Krystal Bald (PR is more likely to come from town. Aside from that, they made one brilliant post which made me laugh.)
PurloinedLetter (their voteproof claim is true, at the least, and I've only ever seen a Lynchproof scum once. it was only for d1, too. to be watched, however.)

Null:

Ghatokaca (consider posting)
Brantz (who are you)
copper223 (He's probably posted enough to be readable - but I'm not going to try to read him yet.)

Nullscum:

Kthxbye (145 doesn't make sense to me ("I'm not seeing copper-town yet, but not sure - VOTE: copper) - ???)
CaskOfAmontillado (This thing is pretty close to null, really, but I'm just not really a fan of it so far. Make me believe, please.)

Scum:

Medea the Alien (The hydra gives me a really uneasy feeling so far. I don't like anything they've done so far.)

-TSO

[Catastrophe]

I'm trying to decide whether I'm townreading Brantz or not for basically having my reads bar Medea.

[Catastrophe]

And yes, that was TSO.

[Catastrophe]

I don't understand why people are scumreading cask. Brantz and cat, explain please.

Let me guide you back to my readslist, where I gave reasoning for my Cask read.

Kthx and catastrophe scumreads are definitely understood.

...nope, I have no idea why you're scumreading us. I can't wait to find out though.

-TSO

[Catastrophe]

CaskOfAmontillado (This thing is pretty close to null, really, but I'm just not really a fan of it so far. Make me believe, please.)

Let me guide you back to my readslist, where I

gave

didn't give

reasoning for my Cask read.

Ftfy

I want an explanation. 'I don't like it so far' is not an explanation, that is close to the definition of a scumread.

You didn't fix anything, actually.

That slot is at nullscum because a lot of its posts made me mildly uneasy, such as sthar talking to Krystal about the PR. <--- That is called a gut read. It's a perfectly viable, acceptable and useful way of reading people in Mafia.

But, actually, I'd have assumed that was somewhat obvious - given that, in the initial read, it's clearly stated the slot is closer to null than scum and no specific posts are given (a la Kthx) so it's a general thing. I would find these assumptions pretty elementary to make.

Clearly it was more difficult than it seemed to me.

I more or less scumread you for the fact that your reads are mostly echoed from others and that the only new thing you bring to the table, a medea scumread, is heavily underexplained, again.

I am in awe of how stunningly bad a reason this is to scumread someone.

Can you explain the problem you have here? Is it the bit where my reads are the same as others?

I hate to shatter your paradigm of this game - but that's not a reason to scumread someone. It's not even

close.

I have no idea what you wanted here - did you believe that we simply couldn't have the same reads as others, or some other nonsense like that?

Or could it be

many of the reads are the same because they're not opinion-based reads, they're claim-based reads, which are pretty clearly being universally townread?

Did you consider that once? Or did you consider that the Medea scumread, for example, doesn't have a huge amount of content because

we're 8 pages into the game and the hydra is V/LA?

-TSO

[Catastrophe]

That's not even checking out his facts or doing any kind of disprovals - it's possible that nobody had really stated this set of reads before and Tier is wrong, but I don't really care, the post would still be bad enough for me to dismiss.

-TSO

[Catastrophe]

Krystal, you can vote can't you? And if so, can you try to explain why you haven't voted anybody yet?

--tool

[Catastrophe]

Lol, upset much

I think it's just called being right.

[Catastrophe]

Krystal, you can vote can't you? And if so, can you try to explain why you haven't voted anybody yet?

*Points at herself. Forms two mouths with her two hands. She looks back and forth as the left mouth flaps its trap and the right mouth stays shut. Points at the right mouth, then at her wrist and taps her foot.*
*Points at Catastrophe. Places her right hand palm-up and waits, staring.*

Took me a bit, but I'm pretty sure I understand this one. For anybody who doesn't understand: Krystal is saying that one head of the hydra has been doing all the talking and they don't want to vote without having both people on board.

And then they're asking us why we haven't voted yet, to which I respond: We've been trying to coordinate reads too. We

mostly

agree, but I think copper looks bad while TSO had him at null I think and he felt like Medea was scummy while I have them at null.

We agree that Lynx is town and we both have Policy, FTL, Bookitty and Purloined as either town or nulltown.

I think if we were to vote right now it would be for Kthxbye, but I want to make sure TSO is cool with that before we actually do it.

My reasons for Kthxbye:

-It kind of seems like Kthxbye gave out his townreads on Policy and Krystal in #67 a little

too

easily. Mostly with Krystal. So Krystal has a post restriction...that makes him totally town? To me, this kind of feels like scum who already know the alignment of the people they're reading.
-When Policy questions Kthx's townread on Krystal, Kthx responds in #85 with several small reasons. It reads to me a little bit like retroactive reasoning, especially since Kthx admits that "having a PR doesn't make one town," which is sort of contradictory to his stance in #67.
-#145 is totally weird. He's not sure about copper, then quotes a post that has nothing to do with copper and then he's convinced enough to vote copper?
-That plus the reasoning he piles on in #189 makes me think that if one of {copper, Kthxbye} is scum, the other is not.

Also, in response to this...

Why are people townreading Boo?

Here are my reasons:

-#27 is a good question and looks like town scumhunting. Note that they followed up on the question in #122 when FTL didn't respond.
-Lots of good questions to people in several posts. Also looks like genuine scumhunting.
-The stuff about their passive, triggered ability in #136/138 also seems very town. As I said before, I don't think scum would want to reveal anything about their roles in the game. Talking vaguely about a passive power role this early in the game and then asking people not to talk about it when they realize others don't have it doesn't strike me as a set of moves scum would make unless they were very, very clever.

[Catastrophe]

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

I'm trying to run an experiment with this game.

A theory I've been thinking about and in fact discussing it with people at another site:

Long D1's are actually detrimental to town because of the mass of analysis that is poured into the game D1 with low information and flips creates long and boring back and forths.

Later on, when the information is available through flips, people are likelier to be burnt out, not analyze and read as thoroughly, and "wing it." Personally I've winged decisions more closer to endgame if I've been burnt out from stress (Tales of You) than if I've held back on that energy. Think long distance race with burst of energy at the end which you would only have if you are preserving it.

Extrapolating it to games in general, my theory is that town have better win rates when D1 and potentially D2 have been low volume days. This leads to more active future days. Analysis late-game will always be higher quality than early game analysis because of more information. By limiting the size of D1 and early days, we increase the potential for town winning.

My first thoughts upon seeing this playerlist with the multitude of hydras was that it would be a spam D1. I'm pleasantly surprised that we are halfway to deadline with only ten pages so keep up the good work.

I'll be posting a list of my early reads and substantial contribution by the next few days.

The only part of this post I find particularly interesting is the last line.

I'm trying to run an experiment with this game.

A theory I've been thinking about and in fact discussing it with people at another site:

Long D1's are actually detrimental to town because of the mass of analysis that is poured into the game D1 with low information and flips creates long and boring back and forths.

Later on, when the information is available through flips, people are likelier to be burnt out, not analyze and read as thoroughly, and "wing it." Personally I've winged decisions more closer to endgame if I've been burnt out from stress (Tales of You) than if I've held back on that energy. Think long distance race with burst of energy at the end which you would only have if you are preserving it.

Extrapolating it to games in general, my theory is that town have better win rates when D1 and potentially D2 have been low volume days. This leads to more active future days. Analysis late-game will always be higher quality than early game analysis because of more information. By limiting the size of D1 and early days, we increase the potential for town winning.

My first thoughts upon seeing this playerlist with the multitude of hydras was that it would be a spam D1. I'm pleasantly surprised that we are halfway to deadline with only ten pages so keep up the good work.

I'll be posting a list of my early reads and substantial contribution by the next few days.

this guy is town

I do not understand how you managed to come to this conclusion since the post is exposition about other people posting and a promise to do better soon.

Tiershift: I can't see a treestump being scum, but especially given the way he revealed his role, feel like he has to be town.

Can you go into more detail here? It's not clear enough to me.

-TSO

[Catastrophe]

The only reason I am townreading Faster than Light is their post about whether Morbid is the town. That's it. Their play is really not town.

[Catastrophe]

Okay, just before this clogs up the thread:
We are unvotable/voteless for X number of days. You will not know what number X is, as we have another ability that is influenced by X and that ability should not be claimed. X might or might not be influenceable.

@Cata: The way this was claimed feels very town to me. I feel like scum would tell us exactly the number of days they would be voteless to gain towncred, but without doing so Tier has given us even more information on their role!

So, what you're saying here is, when they said "We'll be voteless for X days, X is completely variable and you don't get to know it!" we got more information on their ability than, say, "We are voteless for 3 days." ...?

What?

There's a disproportionate amount of real estate in the ISO devoted to Lynx, and even with all that she comes to the hilariously erroneous conclusion that we should lynch him even though she's convinced he's town. Regardless of any claimed abilities, he's definitely better to town alive than dead.

But Lynx has -said- that he's more use alive than dead - what's the problem here?

Is there a reason you just backed the fuck off here? Or did you just not have anything else to say?

In the preceding post, TSO asked me to elaborate while 3/4 of the post was yelling at me. I know that from him and I know responding to find him out will do me no good in such a situation and will instead just lead to him clogging up the gamethread. The reason I made the post was not to convince the town to vote catastrophe, but rather to engage him and when I saw I couldn't, I stopped.
@TSO: it's a pretty serious flaw in your play that you prefer yelling over working together, but w/e.

Well, yeah, you definitely engaged me - but you were wrong. So, I told you exactly that.

It was a pretty bad post, and I presumed you hadn't responded because you knew you were wrong.

It's cute you trying to pin this on me by saying that "I couldn't respond because that psychopath TSO was yelling at me!", but it's simply not true. I didn't use caps in that post, I didn't even swear in that post.

You were wrong, plain and simple - and it's alright to be wrong sometimes, but if you try to say that your problem is my fault, that's when

I

have a problem.

-TSO

[Catastrophe]

What if the neighbouriser lies to us about what Lynx is saying because they're scum?

[Catastrophe]

he doesn't seem like the type to fake that sort of shit (assuming toolenduso?).

Yes, I'm toolenduso.

I still have the utmost desire not to engage you,

"Don't let your feelings get in the way of productive play." -- FDR

but can you please explain the coa and medea reads further? The problem I have with them is that they're pretty much non-commital reads.

I'd prefer tool to answer this, if possible.

Well you're kind of asking me to explain TSO's reads, since you're referencing the readslist he posted. I can't do that.

I can tell you the way that I feel about Cask at least. Medea doesn't have enough for me to form a read yet.

For CoA, here's what I think (this doesn't take into account some of the slot's more recent posts):

-#89 looks like sthar trying to figure out whether the post restriction is real or not to me, which strikes me as town because why would scum care? They would already know what Krystal's alignment was. Not that a PR tells you a person's alignment

necessarily

, but that seems to be how sthar is approaching the situation. Playing devil's advocate, it could easily come from scum who are good at letting go of their mission and playing like they're town who don't know anything. But I would need to know sthar's meta to get a feel for whether that was more likely than the town explanation and I don't know enough about sthar to say which I think is more likely.
-Policy had a good point about the last thing Cask writes in #97, which is questioning how copper knows that Krystal's PR is real -- as scum, copper wouldn't know. This could come from scum looking for any reason to scumread copper. Town explanation would be either that Cask was just needling copper or that Cask just didn't fully think through what they were saying before they posted. I tend to lean scum on this one.
-The amount of attention Cask pays to copper is weird (it's like, almost every post in their ISO) and I'm actually wondering whether it could be a designed distancing tactic between partners. This point's only important if one flips scum, and if that happens we'll have more to analyze from whichever slot's still standing.

I plan on doing more work on this game tomorrow.

--tool

[Catastrophe]

Couple of things I forgot to address:

To expound,

I don't want to lynch Lynx

because it's the most solid town read. On the other hand, Lynx will prolly be killed at night due to his posting about his being lynched ability being strong. If I was scum and Lynx isn't lynched today, I'd take him out just in case, even if he is over exaggerating/estimating his lynched ability. The town in me though really wants to keep a very solid town read alive. So yeah, it's pretty much in Lynx's hands at this point. I'll prolly just follow whatever he thinks is best in this situation seeing as he knows his powers and the rest of us can only guess at this point. He's painted a big bulls eye on his chest for scum to NK and

if he thinks it's best for him to be lynched today, then we should trust it's best.

This post looks so much like you trying to look hesitant to lynch town. You start off opposed to lynching lynx and then slowly convince yourself that it's the best play while putting the responsibility for it in lynx's hands.

I'm The Conqueror Worm. I am of the Morbid (as if I'd claim anything else). I enable full card flips. Upon my death, only character's and their alignment will be flipped. Not much better than VT and if ya'll think keeping town PR's from scum is worth it, lynch me.

Forgive me if I'm misreading your claim, but are you saying that after you die we get to know the flavor, alignment and role of the people who have died? Because we, uh, generally get that information in all mafia games.

Also, to make this clear, I've pretty much stopped scumreading copper. I wrote my read on Cask in that last post a while ago when I thought copper looked really bad.

--tool

[Catastrophe]

So, Kthx, you're saying that we

stop

getting full flips after you die?

Can somebody who believes this claim please explain why? Because claiming a role that punishes town if you die seems like an awfully convenient claim. It also seems like something town would want to keep hidden as long as possible, because revealing the role means scum have an easy way to prevent town from getting information if they kill you. And here we have Kthx claiming it when he's nowhere near L-1 and in fact a large contingency of the town wants to lynch Lynx today.

Also, kthx:

Now, since I'm me and I know my role, I find it very scummy that copper votes me for being scum, followed shortly by

I think the claim from Kthxbye is genuine and Lynx should consider adding him to his wagon, will censor the rest

and here's the scummy part where he forgets the above and says

BRantz I don't like, Policy Lynch is a good substitute, I'd go with Kthxbye over FTL.

I'm pretty sure you're misreading the second quote from copper. He was commenting on Lynx's readslist/list of people who should vote Lynx. Saying that you should be on the list is a way of saying he thinks you're town.

--tool

[Catastrophe]

Thanks tool. I assume that you do not feel the same about medea as tso does?

I didn't at first. After re-reading the slot's ISO I agree with him though (maybe a little less strongly, but agreement nonetheless) that Medea belongs on the lower half of our readslist.

Spoiler: Here's why

Well I was going to walk in here to yelll and ceph and reign orcinus back to the driver's seat but then lynx kept posting and ???

IIoA (if I'm using the term correctly, and I feel like I am). Not a crime, especially on the first post, but this gets repeated throughout the ISO despite falling behind on the game.

PL gets no townpoints for that opening, he literally went down the "what makes morph townread something on the first post" list and checked every box as he went. Which seems too deliberate and targeted at me?

This seems to take into consideration the manner in which the claim was posted and not the claim itself, which looks like scum trying to look suspicious.

That was two posts. And is this gonna be advance wars where you keep prepping cases on me until ffery tells you i'm a mason?

A dodge of Policy's point and a redirection to a situation in which (one of Policy's heads) was wrong before, which does not apply here.

Also, Kthx looks really bad to us right now.

VOTE: Kthxbye

I kind of want to look at some of Kthx's meta that people keep talking about, but seriously why would town claim a role like that so early? And how is that not a super convenient fakeclaim for scum to make?

[Catastrophe]

--tool

[Catastrophe]

Cata makes me itch... its between Cata and FTL.

FTL is already on your wagon, and knowing what this is actually going to do, we should really be on it.

Not totally comfortable with BRantz, but there's not really anybody else I would suggest putting on instead. Why don't you want to self-vote again? That would allow us to get BRantz off the wagon and then we could hop on instead.

It seems outlandish to me to fakeclaim as Kthxbye did there

I'd like to hear some explanation on this. I don't understand why it's such a weird thought that scum would fakeclaim.

Also,

Yes, I did misread copper's post. Still not warm and fuzzy on him, but the push from Cata and BRantz onto me with the attempt to discredit my PR is just more scummy.

UNVOTE: copper

for now....

This is about as scummy a response as Kthx could have possibly given to our pressure. It's total OMGUS with no teeth behind it.

[Catastrophe]

Cata makes me itch... its between Cata and FTL.

Why?

I'd not want cat on this wagon because he's suggesting he should be.

Sorry, we'll go off and improve our townplay, we didn't realise that Town couldn't possibly want to be on a wagon advertised for town.

BRantz should definitely NOT be on Lynx. Cata is in the same boat for me.

Aside from OMGUS, what's your scumread on us for? Until you actually give a reason, your read on us is a joke.

Because cat is trying to manipulate the lynx wagon

By ...trying to get on the wagon? Unless you mean that us wanting to be on the wagon of town is somehow a scumtell, no, this still would make no sense.

And now I am, but you get the point.

Yeah. I'm starting to.

-TSO

[Catastrophe]

I've said it to tool, but I feel really really uncomfortable with how this Lynx wagon is forming. If you're town and you vote without being asked, it's basically the two fingers to everyone.

I would like Lynx to choose exactly who's on the wagon, then have everyone on that list vote. Only them. I don't want anyone other than Lynx doing so, at all. Yes, Tier, your mediocre attempts to direct votes are included.

No idea if we're voting, but if we're on Lynx, I'll unvote whenever.

-TSO

[Catastrophe]

Sure, lynx decides. But stop suggesting yourself.

That's nice.

but why

Good townplay, otherwise people who aren't town will somehow get on it.

They might get on it anyway, but let's make it harder.

why is everyone so afraid of "scum manipulating".
scum manipulate lynches, they don't manipulate vig shots.
and yet double lynches are far more helpful to town than lynch + vig.

Do you have an issue with Lynx choosing, or ...? It's just I have no idea what you're going for here.

-TSO

[Catastrophe]

I'm okay with Lynx choosing his wagon. I expect Lynx to choose his wagon. Expecting no input from anyone else is unreasonable and not good town play.

Really? I mean, I agree.

But when we say "I expect Lynx to choose his wagon" then we get people derpvoting into the wagon, we get people like Kthx, whose credibility is dead, declaring who can and can't be on the wagon, we get people like Tier declaring "If you want to be on the wagon, I don't want you on the wagon!" which is wtflogic, etc. etc.

Everyone wants to be on the list and he can't put every player in the game on it. Why doesn't he just choose himself instead of having every player try to influence it in their own way (subtle or not so subtle)?

[Catastrophe]

I disagree with FtL, for one, but no-one will get off the wagon because everyone wants to be on it. Thumbs up, guys. Thumbs up.

-TSO

[Catastrophe]

Catching up right now, but can somebody unvote so lynx can just decide who is on his wagon? It's clearly the best way to pick.

Thank you...

Lynx has already said who he wants to be on the wagon CoA, we were just waiting for Krystal to show back up.

Not really, at all.

Catastrophe- I can read TSO, and I dont have a townread on him yet which makes my teeth itch. The tool content may be throwing me off though, so I'm gonna give them a day or so.

My picks are actually Bookitty, Catastrophe, and Madea./quote]

I'm relying on sthar for the TSO read. If he's not townreading him by now, he's probably not town. Next!

I understand it's a hydra, but reading me isn't impossible and delegating 100% responsibility to sthar to be right or wrong about it is meh.

We've got a day left, right? Everyone suggest 7 (SEVEN) players to be on my wagon, starting with most town-read. Doesn't have to be a paragraph explanation for each. Simple summation will do. This doesn't apply to Krystal obviously, because they aren't interested in playing much. I'll make a final decision from there. Over. Yay, forcing players to provide input and put themselves out there for the good of mankind! (Or for this town at least.)

This is probably a good idea, I guess. I don't know - I'm tired fighting for you to solely make up your mind and I'm going to go with this because it's a strong compromise if you make the end decision.

Note: I want FTL off the wagon. He dropped that vote and dropped out of sight so no one could tell him to leave (my interpretation). I think that is TERRIBLY scummy

Also, this.

[Catastrophe]

Catastrophe
Policy Lynch
copper
Kthx (I could see ffery using this if she'd recently seen it)
Krystal

I specifically want those 5 on it, don't really care after that. However...

People I specifically DON'T want on it:
Medea
FtL

-TSO

[Catastrophe]

tool hasn't been synched with me lately, but he will soon hopefully. these might be edited slightly if he gets back soon.

[Catastrophe]

TSO and I are working on a complete list. For now, I have two things to say:

1. Unless there's some compelling reason not to have Lynx self-vote, I think he should have the hammer or at least self-vote before deadline. If we get a result that one or more scum was on the wagon, having Lynx included in the list eliminates one slot that could be the scum player.
2. For the same reason, I think Tier should be off the wagon. If he had a vote, it would be a different story. But again, if we get a result that there was one or more scum on the wagon, we would want as few people to choose from as possible.

[Catastrophe]

Official Catastrophe Hydra List for People We'd Like to See on Lynx's Wagon™

--PREFERRED WAGON MEMBERS--
1. Catastrophe
2. Lynx
3. Policy
4. copper
5. Boo
6. Krystal
7. Ghato
--SUBSTITUTES FOR ANYBODY IN THE TOP 7 WHO DOESN'T END UP ON THE ACTUAL WAGON--
8. Brantz
9. FtL
10. Kthx
--PREFERABLY LEFT OFF THE WAGON--
11. Medea
12. Cask

We left Tier off because he doesn't have a vote and for the reason I mentioned in the last post.

--tool

[Catastrophe]

Yes, Kthx, because you've explained your read

so

clearly.

VOTE: Lynx

-TSO

[Catastrophe]

droppin the hamma like I dropped yo mamma

[Catastrophe]

Lynx, if there's any last stuff we need to know, now's the time.

[Catastrophe]

We have a question in to the mod about what she meant when she said there was at least one scum on the Lynx wagon. Not sure if she'll answer, but for now I choose to believe that she meant there was exactly one scum on the wagon.

I still feel like it's Kthx, but I'm not clear on how TSO feels about this.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

Not sure if she'll answer, but for now I choose to believe that she meant there was exactly one scum on the wagon.

The flip says this explicitly.

Not really. The death scene says this:

One, at least one! There are at least one non-Morbid betrayer involved in my demise!

Which says

at least

one, which is not an exact number. And the role PM says this:

- If you are lynched, the number of scum who voted you will be revealed in your cardflip.

Which says that she will say

exactly

how many. Both cannot be true, but I'm not sure which is it right now.

I mean, am I missing something? At least one =/= exactly one, in my book. At least one leaves room for there to have been more than one.

[Catastrophe]

Faster than Light is a role cop, by the way.

What makes you so sure about this?

There's a scum power role that was on the wagon but didn't show up to the sensor somehow.

What makes you so sure about this?

I still need to discuss with metal sonic how much we plan to claim outside of Cask being scum.
-V

I mean, I don't see a reason for you as scum to do this. Cask's theory of scum trying to prevent them from using their even-night ability doesn't make a ton of sense to me; they would need to have a pretty bitchin' power role for scum to actually feel

that

strongly about stopping them from using it and town already seems to have a lot of power.

But could you tell us whether your result leaves room for Cask to not be scum?

Cata, you are dense if you think I'm scum after the card flips. The evedence is there that my PR is exactly as I state it. The only way you think I'm scum still is if you think scum have my PR which makes zero sense.

Can you elaborate? Because I'm not seeing what you're seeing apparently.

At any rate, we have a probable 2 scum in a group of 6 and 1 scum in a group of 5. That's exactly a 1/3 chance at hitting scum if we focus on those not on the wagon vs a 1/5 chance if we hunt for the 1.

Oh yeah good point.

Scum will more that likely target the town on the Lynx wagon D1 so us doing the same during the day phase is explicitly retarded beyond belief.

No need to go there. Let's be civil.

My personal opinion, and this isn't OMGUS, is that it's Cata or BRantz....like I expressed yesterday.

I have seen absolutely no reasoning from you as to why we're scum except that we've pushed against you. That's, like, the definition of OMGUS.

@Tier:

Can you vote/be voted now?

--tool

[Catastrophe]

I've seen a lot of speculation here, but no one has provided information direct from the mod or has indicated that they've even asked her. If they were really concerned about it, why wouldn't they have asked her in thread or via PM?

I have to wrap my head around all this stuff and talk to TSO about what's happened but I'd just like to point out that we did, in fact, ask the mod:

We have a question in to the mod about what she meant when she said there was at least one scum on the Lynx wagon.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

@Cat: So did Ghato. I myself asked in thread. Copper hadn't indicated even that they'd asked at the point they sheeped COA's invisible scum on the sensor theory. Copper has said he already got a response, though. Have you?

She sent it to TSO, so I hadn't seen the response until just a minute ago when she forwarded it to me. All she said was that the results she posted are correct.

Also, when did Ghato ask?

[Catastrophe]

Yeah it pretty much seems to me that there was a non-scannable player on the lynch. I don't know how else to explain the discrepancy between the role PM and the result we got.

But I don't see how we can assume that the non-scannable player(s) was/were town or scum. That's basically just speculation. Couldn't it have been Lynx that was the non-scannable one?

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

Seeing that Lynx's role is incredibly powerful, I could maybe imagine having unscannable town just to create ambiguity in the results and not allow them to be completely game breaking. My conclusion that it's a scum special only comes from the fact no one's chosen to say anything, not from the role itself.

Right, the thing is, it seems like a lot of players have passive, triggered abilities and they don't know what they are. It would make sense for either town or scum not to know that they were unscannable, since having that ability spelled out in your role PM pretty much confirms that there is a scanner in the game.

Morbid are the town. Non-Morbid are the non-town. It CANNOT be an unscannable townie. It just can't, unless you're going to assume everything Ffery said here was a lie.

My conception of an unscannable player (scum or town) is that if they're on the wagon they cause the wording to be changed from "there were X non-morbid players" to "there were at least X non-morbid players" or some other non-definitive statement. Just because the mod said that there was at least one scum player doesn't mean that the player causing the result wording to be vague is also scum.

[Catastrophe]

That last post was from me by the way.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

@Catastrophe
Ok that is a fair point, so is there such a player on the lynch that could have tried to get scanned without knowing it was a bad idea?

- I can say there is nothing in my role PM which would suggest it, so it's not me.

Nothing in our PM to suggest it either.

@Cat: If a townie was unscannable and that wasn't revealed to them in this game, I'd regard it as pretty bastard given the nature of Lynx's role. This isn't a bastard game, so I think that's an unlikely scenario.

I don't follow. Why would that be bastard? I think it makes sense not to tell a player that they're unscannable because if you do then it tells that player that there's a scanner in the game. Especially for town it makes sense, because then that player could independently confirm Lynx's claim.

That being said, three out of five remaining players who were on the Lynx wagon say that they don't have anything in their PMs to suggest that they might be unscannable so it might be a moot point.

[Catastrophe]

If there's an immune-to-investigation role out there, then his role PM is a lie. It's inaccurate. It's assuring Lynx that there isn't a role that there actually is.

What? When you give a role PM to a vig you don't tell them whether there's a BP in the game. When you give a role PM to a gunsmith you don't tell them whether there's a faction they'll get a negative result on that's still scum (Werewolf/SK). When you give a role PM to a cop you don't tell them whether there's a godfather.

The role PM tells Lynx what his ability does when it works properly. It seems wrong to me to assume that if there was a role out there that would mess with the result, the mod would spell that out in Lynx's role PM.

[Catastrophe]

OK that's two people now who have said that Kthx's role has been confirmed. What am I missing? How has it been confirmed?

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

The role could have been given to him as a fakeclaim; I don't buy that his role is real just because fferyllt has used it before.

Is the full role PM not what we would normally get in a UPick game where lots of people have multiple PRs complete with flavor? I kind of thought we would normally get that.

And I see the loss of role info upon flips as more anti-town than anti-scum. Scum loses the knowledge of what PRs have been killed; town loses the ability to know whether scum is claiming the role of a dead player.

[Catastrophe]

Didn't consider that. I'll have to think that over.

On the second thing: You're saying it's an anti-scum power. While I agree that depriving scum of information hurts them, I think it hurts town more. If we lose roleflips upon death, scum will later be able to get away with fakeclaiming things. If a player gets NK'ed or lynched without fully claiming, scum can later claim that role and town would be none the wiser that scum is claiming the role of a dead person.

P-Edit: I didn't consider the implications of Kthx claiming before we had any flips.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

@Tool: We lose the pro-town power that Kthx has if he's dead. Anti-scum = pro-town. I think Kthx's power makes more sense for town than scum. I don't understand what you are saying at all.

You know what, I don't even think this really matters. If it becomes more relevant at some point we can talk about it some more but for now I feel like this is just argument for the sake of argument. I guess the only important thing here is that I think it would suck for town to not get role flips.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

@tool: We agree. I don't know why you think otherwise. I said I thought

Kthxbye was likely town because his role was anti-scum

, ergo, pro-town, and that it would be a negative utility role for scum.

Ah. See, the bolded is where this starts to get problematic for me.

We only partially agree. You say it's anti-scum, and while I agree that losing role flips would be bad for scum I assert that it is far more detrimental to town. Yes, it's anti-scum. It's way more anti-town. Therefore I don't agree with the argument that his role makes him town based on the assumption that it's an anti-scum role.

As a matter of fact, scum having this PR

could

help explain why Kthx claimed when he did -- as scum, he would know he wasn't in trouble of being NK'ed, and forgot that from a townie's point of view claiming would put him in danger.

To be entirely clear: I am not saying that I necessarily see Kthx as scum. I'm saying that Boo's reasoning here doesn't make sense to me. As a matter of fact I'm starting to believe a theory that might exclude the possibility that Kthx is scum. I want to get more coordinated with TSO before I talk about it.

[Catastrophe]

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

Imagine there are 6 players on that lynch, 4 are morbid, one is non morbid and one is euforic aligned but results on him yield no information (if you were to investigate him you would get a no result back), now the scan goes through, the mod says:

At least one is non morbid, this is accurate and integrates the information that there is a blank, with in this case there being 1 non morbid and 1 euforic on the lynch.

Are you saying the non-town faction is called euphoric? How do you know?

[Catastrophe]

@Krystal: I've never been in a game with a cult. Also, you look at Bookitty's discussion of Ffery's wording and think that looks like town trying to figure things out? She actually argued that a PR's role PM should say whether there's another role in the game that will mess with their result. She was stubborn to the point of making arguments that didn't make any sense.

Anyway, I believe Krystal's result. I never considered the thing about the active and passive roles, and like I've been saying, Kthx being scum explains the way he claimed. Not to mention all the other scummy stuff he's done.

Although at some point we have to talk about the likelihood of town having a sensor, a rolecop and a third even-night investigative role.

We're considering Tier's idea of keeping Kthx around so we keep getting roleflips.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

It's not an active role. It's a passive role. When he dies, we lose full role flips. He can't control it, therefore it's passive.

This is not a secret. It's what he's said all along, it's what you and copper have said all along, and it took me longer than most people to realize how his role worked.

You think I had prior knowledge of what his role did? Did you forget the part where I didn't even understand what his role was until multiple people explained it?

[Catastrophe]

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

"When he's alive we get full role flips" and "when he's dead we lose full role flips" mean the same goddamn thing, Kitty. What are you even saying.

[Catastrophe]

For those who don't remember, this is how things went:

I enable full card flips. Upon my death, only character's and their alignment will be flipped.

Forgive me if I'm misreading your claim, but are you saying that after you die we get to know the flavor, alignment and role of the people who have died? Because we, uh, generally get that information in all mafia games.

@Cata: I think kthx is saying that we get full flips as long as he is alive. After that we only get names and alignments.

copper wants to lynch full flips. Hmmm, who'd wanna do that? Oh yeah, scum.

So, Kthx, you're saying that we

stop

getting full flips after you die?

So you're saying that because I understood something that was

really, really fucking obvious

after it was explained, I must have had advance knowledge?

[Catastrophe]

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN ACTIVE ABILITY YOU USE WHEN YOU'RE DEAD.

[Catastrophe]

You're running around in a circle, copper.

The role does one thing when he's alive and another when he's dead. You can look at it from any angle and that fact will be, and always has been, true. What you're saying right now is basically "If it's something he has when he's alive, it's pro-town. If it's something he has when he's dead, it's pro-scum."

It's a role that functions regardless of his actions whether he's alive or dead, so what you're saying makes no sense. It's like saying A=B, B=C and A=C, but when you look at A it looks pro-town and when you look at C it looks pro-scum.

[Catastrophe]

"Passive ability while alive that triggers upon death" = "passive ability while alive" = "passive ability while dead"

"Town gets full role flips while Kthx is alive" = "town loses full role flips when Kthx dies"

Both of you keep saying two things that mean the exact same thing and then acting like they mean something different.

P-Edit: Because I understood that town would lose full role flips upon death and scum would gain the ability to fakeclaim more things with relative impunity. BRantz understood this. Policy Lynch understood this. I don't understand why you can't wrap your head around it.

[Catastrophe]

HE SAID IT IN #408. HE SAID COPPER WANTS TO LYNCH FULL FLIPS. HE FLAT OUT, EXPLICITLY, OBVIOUSLY TOLD US THAT WE WOULD LOSE FULL FLIPS IF HE DIED.

Your dichotomy is a misrepresentation of what was being said. It's not "If you let me play on your PS4 I'll give you a cupcake," It was (and always was, and obviously was), "Hey copper, I brought some cupcakes over and when I leave I'm taking them with me."

[Catastrophe]

He is both giving it to you while he's alive and taking it away when he dies. They are two sides of the same coin. They are both true and in fact one cannot be true without the other being true.

The same thing happens regardless of whether you think of it as something he gives us or something he takes away. His role doesn't change just because you think of it differently.

[Catastrophe]

Aaaaaaaand now you're changing your argument.

This current round of discussion is about my conception

before Krystal's result was made public

of what Kthx's role did, not whether I believed it was true at the time. At the time, I wasn't sure of whether the role was real or not.

I'm not saying that I believed Kthx's role was real at the time. I believe it is now because we have an investigative result saying it is. When I made post #898 I was trying to feel out whether Kthx's role had been confirmed like so many people were saying.

[Catastrophe]

@Copper: I postulated that it could be a fakeclaim after Policy Lynch brought that up.

@Boo: What I said was:

Your dichotomy is a misrepresentation of

what was being said

.

I was explaining what Kthx had obviously claimed, not what I obviously believed.

You have both shoved fiery torches of confbias into your eyeballs and voluntarily sliced out the logic centers of your brains and I can't keep arguing this ridiculous bullshit with you forever. So if enough people out there actually believe this pile of crap for us to get lynched over it, then we can talk about it some more. But right now this is a stumbling block you have placed in the way of town having discussions that matter.

TSO can talk about this if he wants. For now, I'm done.

[Catastrophe]

Hi. I'm TSO.

I have not been supporting tool whatsoever because I, again, have exams in 2 weeks. I have been skimming the thread but mainly posting in the Catastrophe PT. I, however, despise our hydra being scumread for no deal.

So, here's the deal.

Bookitty: Lay out your fucking case and stop arguing words with tool. That really fucking annoys me. He's town. We're town. tool is both correct enough and smart enough to kick your fucking ass in a war of words, and with the layers of bullshit and condescension in your words you clearly feel you can win, so either continue being a coward or stand up. Thanks.

copper: You can do 1 of 2 things here.

1) Stop the violent buddy of Bookitty and make your own case if you're so sure we are scum.
2) Run the fuck back to your scum topic.

-TSO

[Catastrophe]

Yeah, yeah, that's nice. Speaking of which...

[Catastrophe]

This is the last time I try.

Case 1
Imagine there are 6 players on that lynch, 4 are morbid, one is non morbid and one is non morbid but results on him yield no information (if you were to investigate him you would get a no result back), now the scan goes through, the mod says:

At least one is non morbid, this is accurate and integrates the information that there is a blank, with in this case there being 2 non morbid on the lynch.

Case 2
Imagine there are 6 players on that lynch, 4 are morbid, one is non morbid and one is morbid but results on him yield no information (if you were to investigate him you would get a no result back), now the scan goes through, the mod says:

At least one is non morbid, this is accurate and integrates the information that there is a blank, with in this case there being exactly 1 non morbid on the lynch.

Case 3.
Imagine there are 6 players on that lynch, 4 are morbid, one is non morbid and one is euforic aligned but results on him yield no information (if you were to investigate him you would get a no result back), now the scan goes through, the mod says:

At least one is non morbid, this is accurate and integrates the information that there is a blank, with in this case there being 1 non morbid and 1 euforic on the lynch.

As you can see, in all cases the phrasing the mod used is applicable, since we have no reason to believe there is a third party at the current time and I don't see why a morbid aligned would try to screw us over on purpose, we make the assumption this blank player is also scum.

Why did you use non-morbid repeatedly and then change to euforic?
More to the point, where did you get euforic?

[Catastrophe]

Because neither euforic nor euphoric are direct antonyms of morbid, in a Google search or in real life. So I don't understand how you came upon the word.

And, as well as this, in your Case 2 I am almost 100% sure that any town player would have claimed - the role causing confusion here is almost certainly anti-town aligned.

[Catastrophe]

Bookitty: Lay out your fucking case and stop arguing words with tool. That really fucking annoys me. He's town. We're town. tool is both correct enough and smart enough to kick your fucking ass in a war of words, and with the layers of bullshit and condescension in your words you clearly feel you can win, so either continue being a coward or stand up. Thanks.

Did you read the discussion? I HAVE made my case.

It depends on a kthxbye scum flip, though, so I'm waiting to see.

I'm not being condescending. I don't regard drawing scum as a moral failing nor yet a mental one. I'm saying, I think you're scum, here's why. I laid it out. You can like it or not, but you can't argue that I'm being a coward when I laid out my case from front to back right in the thread.

If kthxbye isn't scum, then my case falls apart completely. Then you can point and laugh, I guess. But if you can kick my ass in a war of words, please do so. Don't just talk about how you can.

Can you show me the one post where your case is laid out?

Because every time tool addressed one, the argument moved onto a new post, with slightly different arguments.

And I'm not saying -I- can kick your ass. I'm not even 100% caught up. tool, however, can and is.

[Catastrophe]

I hope to incrementally work my way back through this game in the next couple of days and get a fresh perspective on things. Here's a couple things I wanted to say right now:

-Copper accused me of lying a while back, basically because he said that I had brought up the possibility of Kthx having a mod-provided fakeclaim before Policy Lynch did. Short answer is that in the post where I voted Kthx I used the term "fakeclaim" to mean "a claim that is not true" and not "a mod-provided fakeclaim." I think the wording of the sentence backs this up.
-Boo and copper's case on us still makes no sense and I'm prepared to lay out why in as clear of terms as possible should we need to, but for now it seems pretty irrelevant as Kthx makes the most sense to lynch today.
-I think Krystal and Boo adequately rebutted Kthx's points.
-Cask's case on Ghato isn't bad and I could see them being scum but this is something I plan to look at in more detail as I re-read.
-I agree we should wait for catch-ups from Medea, Ghato and Faster before lynching today.
-I don't see any way for BRantz to be scum. FtL also seems to be pretty well cleared. Cask I'm not so sure about. Need to go back and look at why people think they're probtown/clear.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

Hurry up and get to night already so cat can die

Um...are you going to use a vig shot on us tonight?

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

Well I'm pretty confident that he is and it would be a pretty awful mistake for you to shoot us so let's talk please before you mess things up for town.

Why do you think we're scum?

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

Kthx is at L-1, right? Could somebody unvote so we can give Reck some time to catch up before Kthx self-hammers?

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

Actually Reck your vote is on Kthx.

[Catastrophe]

@Reck: Here's a list of claims

-Faster Than Light: Vig, targeted Cask last night and was blocked. One shot was used in the attempt. Claim is in #760.
-Tier: Began as a treestump (this was confirmed by votecounts) then gained the ability to vote and be voted over N1 for some reason nobody seems to be sure about. Claim is in #794.
-Kthx: Enables the posting of full role PMs while alive. After he dies we get alignment and flavor but not roles. This much is basically confirmed by Krystal Bald's investigation (although Krystal's investigation shows he has an active ability as well -- strong man, ie scum). Kthx's claim is in #350.
-Cask: Even-night investigative of some kind. Claim is in #727 and #736.
-Krystal: Rolecop with a post restriction where they can only communicate by use of facial expressions. The post restriction has been confirmed because they lost their vote when they broke the restriction in order to give their result on Kthx. That's all in #946.
-BRantz: JK. Claim is in #762. Jailed Cask last night, preventing FtL's vig shot from going through. I think pretty much everybody is on board that BRantz's claim is confirmed because of what we know from FtL as well as Krystal Bald's result that Kthx is a strongman.
-Ghato: Neighborizer of the dead. Claim is in #303. Says they neighborized the D1 lynch (Lynx) but we have yet to hear from them.

Flips:

-Lynx was a self-watcher and sensor. Wording of the result upon Lynx's lynch D1 was ambiguous but we know that there was at least one scum on the wagon.
-Policy was a rolestopper and loverizer. They didn't use an action N1. Also they got to send us dying messages at the start of D2.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

Oh FFS Kthx it's a matter of semantics. When you're alive we get full flips, when you die we lose them. It's that simple and it doesn't matter whether you think of it as being triggered upon death or an ability you give to the town while you're alive or a cupcake you get when you play PS4.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

OK, well FMPOV it doesn't make a bit of difference guys. It means the same thing -- when you're alive we get full flips. When you die we lose them.

Also...you're saying it makes more sense for your town PM to look different than two town PMs we've seen than it does for you to just be scum?

Got it.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

Well for one, there were no flips by the time you claimed.

I think that you, as scum, claimed the half of your role PM that you could pass off as being town and didn't think to claim a second ability. Possibly because you didn't know whether townies typically had two abilities.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

*Waves. Holds up a finger.*

Did they just miss this was not a hammer?????

Not how I read it. I feel like Krystal was trying to tell the mod they're still around.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

Well I'm working on going through ISOs right now. Given that FtL might vig us tonight, would you mind waiting for me to get done with those?

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

This is tool.

I'll start off with this: After Tier posted his last thing about the while alive/while dead ability it finally clicked. Bookitty was saying that I was approaching Kthx's claim as though it were a "while dead" ability while she thought it was a "while alive" ability.

To be clear, her logic still makes absolutely no freaking sense. The role is the same regardless of whether it's a while alive ability or a while dead ability. The exact. Freaking. Same. And looking at it one way or another doesn't change whether the role itself is pro-town or pro-scum. While it's alive it helps town. While it's dead it helps scum.

The reason her case doesn't apply to me is that I never looked at the claim through the lens of being a "while alive" or "while dead" ability. I looked at the claim and thought "OK so when he's alive we get flips, when he's dead we lose them." It never occurred to me to think about where it would be listed in the role PM. I just thought of it in terms of what the role did.

Somehow, Bookitty came to the conclusion that the utility of the role changes depending on where it's listed in the role PM. I did not share this (objectively false) view, and in fact never thought about where it would be listed in the role PM, so I had no idea what she was even saying.

Anyway, here's my readslist after going through ISOs again. When I felt it unnecessary to go through a player's ISO, I simply listed my read on them. I don't explain the read on Kthx because he's been discussed ad nauseum and my read on him hasn't changed.

Just know that TSO hasn't looked at this and therefore it's entirely possible he disagrees with me.

Town

Spoiler: FtL

-Claimed vig who took a shot at Cask last night. While I don't understand how Cask not dying was ever supposed to signify Cask being scum, I also see no reason for scum to pull a move like FtL's. Doing so would eventually be a 1v1 and a confirmed scum death, and in that case why not go for fakeclaiming an actual investigative role instead of a vig?
-ESPECIALLY if it actually turns out that Krystal is lying about her result on Kthx. If that's the case, that would mean that two scum decided to 1v1 on the same day and I just don't buy that.

Spoiler: Bookitty/Reck

-Generally helpful and scumhunty D1.
-If Bookitty's slot is town, then she: thought of Kthx's power as being a "while alive" ability rather than a "while dead" ability and freaked the fuck out when she (mistakenly) thought that I had thought of the role as being the opposite, which it now has been revealed to be.
-If Bookitty's slot is scum, then she: should have already known whether it was a "while dead" or "while alive" ability, and therefore would have needed to assume the opposite in order to come to her (silly and misguided) view of Kthx's role.
-So yeah, actually I think I have to admit that I don't think this slot is scum. And I wanted it to be so badly. Thought I found a scumslip, even. But basically, in order for Bookitty to even make her ridiculous case on us I think she had to be thinking of things from a point of view where she didn't have information that scum would have.

Spoiler: Krystal

-It would be pretty dumb for scum to 1v1 on Kthx the way Krystal has.
-The post restriction has been confirmed by Krystal losing their vote, and the presence of such a post restriction heavily implies that Krystal has a valuable power role. If Krystal is scum and has such a valuable power role, why would she suicide like this?

Spoiler: BRantz

-Pretty much conftown in my book. It makes sense for town to have a JK with a vig and strongman in the game, and the fact that no player seems to be suspicious of BRantz since his claim pretty much means there are no counterclaims lurking in the shadows that would cast doubt on BRantz's claim.
-Also the lack of a kill on Cask pretty much confirms BRantz being JK.

Null-town

Spoiler: Cask

-Obviously the most important thing here is the claim. They've claimed even-night investigative and Krystal has suggested that town could have three investigative roles if each one was appropriately handicapped. Cask's handicap is being even-night, Krystal's is the post restriction and Lynx's was that he had to die in order for us to get anything. So I think it's possible we have all three, though I see no reason for the claim to be true just based on what role they claimed.
-Overall, this slot's behavior when FtL tried to get them lynched strikes me as supporting the investigative claim. There's no hesitation there, and they even say that FtL must be a rolecop because they're certain that scum has found them out and is now pulling a 1v1 to get them lynched.

Null

Spoiler: Purloined/Tier

-Nothing really stood out as Purloined.
-As Tier, I'll start with his own case for why he's town. Tier argues that he tried to draw the NK on day one by suggesting that town would get some awesome ability if whatever unspecified event happened. The key to this, in my view, is Tier's subsequent point that his role would be horrible balance if it were on the side of scum. Given the sheer number of town PRs we appear to have, this kind of makes sense. On the other hand, we don't really know what scum has right now except probably a strongman. So how are we supposed to know that it would be terrible for scum to have a temporary treestump? I tend to agree that it would be kind of weird for a scum player to be unkillable for at least the first day/night phase, I'm not sure that it would be impossible to give scum enough firepower to balance it out. I guess it makes sense that if ffery wanted to handicap scum she could do it in much more subtle ways, like making their power roles x-shot or even/odd night or something else that wouldn't be readily available knowledge to town. It's hard for me to say; I don't feel super comfortable doing setup spec and this is starting to get pretty hypothetical. The argument kind of makes sense to me but I just have some question marks that prevent it from being so solid an argument I just write Tier off as being town and move on.
-Other significant game events: Arguing that we shouldn't be on the Lynx wagon because we want to be (#523), which is kind of weird because it makes total sense for town (or scum, for that matter) to want to be on the wagon. Could be scum trying to make room for a partner to get onto the wagon to mess up the sensor result.
-Catching copper's "scumslip." In my gut this feels like a towny thing to do. I guess it just feels like it would take pretty clever scum to catch a fake scumslip, but I admit it's really not outside the realm of likelihood for scum to do this.
-Bringing up the possibility of keeping Kthx alive for full flips/pushing Kthx's lynch through uncertainty from other players: I could see both of these coming from either alignment.
-I guess Tier is kind of a mild townread for me but I still see ways this slot could be scum. I'm just worried about this slot because if Tier is scum then I think it would be pretty hard to show why.

Null-scum

Spoiler: copper

-Put in quite a bit of researching on D1, doing things like checking into meta pretty early for a lot of players. By no means a foolproof towntell, but I tend to think scum would be more likely to try to twist what a player is saying in the current game than try to find meta that should generally point to everybody in the town as being town.
-Gets into a weird argument with Cask toward the beginning of the game about the nature of Krystal's post restriction. Sticks to a clearly flawed argument, which I generally find to be scummy.
-Votes us for weird reasons, defends his points when scrutinized and then abandons the scumread on us as soon as TSO posts a readslist he agrees with. Kind of a weird trajectory and potentially scummy.
-Won't lie, I skimmed a lot of this ISO. It's pretty long :/
-Lots of garbled/weird logic throughout this game, like not seeing any way that scumKthx would claim early, assuming that there were exactly two townies on the Lynx wagon, assuming that because more than one scum might have managed to sneak onto the wagon that there's no way scum were lurking D1, etc. Bits and pieces could have scum motivation, like trying to get people to townread Kthx.
-Hopping onto Bookitty's bad case against us looks kind of like scummy opportunism, but fits in with the overall style of his logic in this game.
-Not sure what to think about his constant voting and unvoting of Kthx and his momentary switch to thinking that Krystal was the one lying based on the multiple fake self-hammers. Scum buddy trying to give his partner an easy out? Paranoid town?
-Overall I find myself more uneasy when looking at copper's slot after doing the ISO read-through. There's just a lot of question marks here -- times when his logic doesn't make sense, times when he seemed to chase things with conviction only to give them up without very good reasoning.

Spoiler: Medea

-The rejection of Policy's claim in Medea's first post (#65) seems like scum trying to look like they don't buy things easily, ie paranoid. It looks like they're trying to look paranoid rather than actually being paranoid because the premise upon their paranoia rests doesn't stand up to much scrutiny. Instead of looking at the claim itself they look at the way in which Policy claimed.
-The idea that they're fine not being on the Lynx wagon in #514 could be significant. If, for instance, Medea flips scum, then we can consider whether they were fine with this because scum was already slated to be on the Lynx wagon at that point. The people who were voting Lynx at the time were Boo, FtL, copper, Policy and BRantz.
-Their nonchalant reaction to Kthx's claim raises my hackles a bit but I can't think of any particular reason why this points to scum that can't be easily rebutted.
-I see nothing to make them look extremely towny, nor anything super scummy. From the few things that did jump out to me in the ISO, as well as through PoE, I find it entirely likely that they are scum.

Spoiler: Ghato

-While we can't be sure whether it's intentional or unintentional, #246 functions as a convenient excuse to not contribute much to the game D1 or D2.
-As has been said before, it would be weird for scumGhato to say that they would dead neighborize Lynx and then not do it. Even if they didn't, why not just pretend like they did and pass along some bullshit message from Lynx? Ghato says that the neighbor thread got locked and I guess we have to assume that some role out there did so either passively or actively. No way of looking at all the possibilities associated with the claim or the subsequent lack of utility and coming up with any way of determining alignment IMO.
-I also don't think that Ghato offering to neighborize Lynx as a failsafe to ensure that town would receive the result is necessarily towny. Again, scum with this ability could offer to do so and then pass along incorrect information.
-#711 is the weirdest post in this ISO and the main red flag making them lean scum for me. They seem to think that the mod's result was clearly saying there was exactly one scum on the Lynx lynch rather than "one or more." If there was more than one scum on the Lynx wagon, it would be very much in scum's best interests to try to convince town that there was only one scum on the wagon. Scum could have even discussed this at night. If there was exactly one scum on the wagon, this could have even been a slip from Ghato -- knowing that there was only one scum and thinking it silly when a towny was unsure.

Scum

Kthx

[Catastrophe]

Copper, calm down. It takes time to catch up with 50 pages of gameplay.

I'm ready to vote Kthx, but I know he'll just self-hammer as soon as he's at L-1. Anybody else have stuff to say before the end of the day?

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

You're saying an awful lot for somebody who thinks there's nothing left to say.

[Catastrophe]

Oh yeah I forgot about Nikanor.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

Justification: Nikanor wants to get a post in before the lynch.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

Again, the argument makes no sense to me that ffery somehow lied to Lynx or is a shitty mod just because some role exists out there that fucked with the sensor result. That's not lying to the player, it's just omitting (as any mod would) that a role exists that would mess with the result.

"At least one" does not mean "exactly one" and I'm just having a hard time seeing how you look at that result and think that it's unambiguous.

--tool.

Mine. Sorry.

[Catastrophe]

@sthar: TSO says Medea is a much better vig shot than Ghato.

[Catastrophe]

Krystal, do you have more to say or are you ready to go to night?

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

VOTE: Kthxbye

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

Cask, anything to report?

[Catastrophe]

So, one of {Copper, Ghato} is scum.

[Catastrophe]

And we don't want a quicklynch today - yes we know Krystal is scum - no we don't need her instantly dead.

-tso

[Catastrophe]

Well I guess that could be a town role if your results were stolen. Like maybe somebody thought you would die and so they wanted to grab your results and give them to town themselves.

Are you sure your result didn't just get blocked?

If a townie has the results they should definitely come forward with them.

Copper I don't know why you think you look so obvtown. From where we're sitting you're right up there as being one of the most likely scum. But for the sake of thoroughness, would you care to make an argument for why you're town?

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

Are you kidding me Tool? I was the only one who even thought that Kthxbye might be town, you just wanted to lynch him end of story. You really think I put doubt in your minds as scum and play around with the lynch by fake hammering him and giving him a chance to recover? You're out of your mind if you are town.

Spoken like somebody who chose their behavior specifically so they could point to it as a reason for being town later on.

Who do you think is scum on the Lynx wagon?

[Catastrophe]

Copper, explain to me how Cask being scum is still likely to you. Explain to me how you think it's likely that two scum would fakeclaim investigative roles on the same day.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

in this case I doubt what happened to the rest of us was a factor.

Not sure I'm understanding you here -- who are you talking about when you say "us"?

[Catastrophe]

@Tier: Can you explain (without giving away your role) why you couldn't have just done whatever your power is to somebody other than Krystal last night?

[Catastrophe]

So you used the word "us" to refer to Cask?

[Catastrophe]

Why doesn't it matter? Isn't it a good thing if you're confirmed?

[Catastrophe]

Well, no, we had 11 days until deadline. But OK.

Medea, FtL, anything to say?

[Catastrophe]

Tier, if you're going to do something tonight that will allow somebody else to confirm you, I feel like it should be someone other than copper.

[Catastrophe]

Well we would be a good choice obviously but I know you don't necessarily have a reason to trust us. All I can say is that if you can "confirm" yourself with town and you do it with us, it will have a good outcome. Unless it's something that would suck for us, in which case it would not be a good outcome.

Reck could be a good choice. Cask is probably getting killed tonight, so FtL would also be a good choice. Probably a better one, actually.

[Catastrophe]

We are half of the reason copper and Medea both died N3.

We are Arthur Gordon Pym, a 1-shot cannibal. Our ability was to "eat" a dead player at night and gain one of their abilities (like a backup). We "ate" Policy for the loverizer ability on N2, then loverized Medea and copper N3. FtL must have shot one of them, killing them both.

We also have Reck's thing about having some passive ability that can be triggered whether we're alive or dead.

@Copper: Any idea why you can talk, and why Medea can also talk but is limited to 30 posts?

[Catastrophe]

Tier is clear.

[Catastrophe]

We got perfume from Tier during the night btw. Seems like a fruit vendor type thing.

[Catastrophe]

We loverized copper because I thought he was scum. I did a six-game meta dive on him and concluded he was doing something in this game that he usually only does as scum. Then there was the other stuff I talked about in-thread.

[Catastrophe]

I found that as scum you tend to respond to pressure by pointing out specific things you've done in the game and constructing a case for why you're town that portrays your towniness as being super obvious. Whereas, as town you respond to pressure a bit more calmly and explain why each point the person is bringing up is wrong, without saying things like "But I did X. I would never do X if I were scum!"

I was seeing that in this game so thought you were playing to your scum meta.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

I meant it was a bad opening post which immediately gave me scumvibes. I think I'd have pushed and got the Medea lynch d1 were it not for Lynx.

[Catastrophe]

And it was way too arrogant as well - especially the first two lines in the post.

[Catastrophe]

I'll go pull the quotes, Tier. But in the meantime, I kind of feel like our claim makes us town. I mean, there were three kills in one night. How else do you explain that without believing our claim?

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

First two posts were mine.

I thought it was Reck until now but his claim is pretty town because we also have that event thing iirc.

-tso

[Catastrophe]

Examples of copper pointing to game events/actions he's taken as "proof" that he's town:

As scum:

Regarding the Potato kill, that if anything is the reason why I am not scum with Mollie, Potato himself changed his mind about it, so by killing him I'm not even preventing that read from resurfacing, if anything I would be drawing attention to it, and you actually voted for him at the time because of the logical leap he made, why are you bringing this up now?

- The fact I passed up on the opportunity to freely chose what to claim damn well is alignment indicative, as scum I would have every incentive to claim last.
- The fact that instead of thinking about what that means for

my alignment

he misreps me and blames me for not calling him town because he chose to claim VT over BP (a point that was not even in contention and that according to

him

is scummy to make, since he previously accused me of giving importance to claiming VT, which should be completely null, hypocritical much?) shows that his priority is to scumread others and protect himself instead of trying to figure this out.

Here's one I can't quote because the thread is locked.
And another.
And another.
And a fourth.
And a fifth.
A sixth.
A seventh.
And an eighth.

As town:
One I can't quote because the game is locked.

Here's a game where copper was town and didn't do this at all. When people scumread him in this game, he tends to just argue against their points without pointing at his own play to come up with reasons why he isn't/can't be scum.

And I didn't look through this one with quite the amount of thoroughness that I did with the one town game I found where he did use his own posting as a reason for why he was totally town, but from what I know based on a quick run-through of his ISO as well as my memory from the game, he didn't exhibit the behavior in this game either.

Here are examples of copper doing it in this game:

@Lynx

- Copper: my behavior regarding your play today should tell you what I rolled.

@Krystal
Also comon mate, comfirmed scum from your pov claims on me to try and mislynch me and you think I may be scum too?

You think I am scum after yesterday? I think you need to play other games.

Are you kidding me Tool? I was the only one who even thought that Kthxbye might be town, you just wanted to lynch him end of story. You really think I put doubt in your minds as scum and play around with the lynch by fake hammering him and giving him a chance to recover? You're out of your mind if you are town.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL, as if it's worth sabotaging my teammate Krystal to get towncred when everyone minus you was townreading me anyway.

@Ghato
How is switching votes not defending Kthx, there is no clearer signal you can give, once again there is no reason to fake hammer as scum there jeopardizing Krystal's play, so your scumread here is most likely faked because you have to scumread one player on the wagon, Cat already scumreads me and who knows about Reck so this is almost guaranteed scum opportunistically pushing, nice of you to come out of hiding to out yourselves.

And here's one that doesn't point to a specific thing he did as proof of his towniness, but fit in with the whole "isn't it obvious I'm town" vibe:

@TSO
I like most of that readlist, of course I'm 10x more obvious town than you from where I'm sitting but probably there is a bias involved there, for both of us.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

Are we pulling the 'I'm almost confirmed town'-card, TSO?

Well I'm asking you to consider our claim because it's really best for town if we aren't in the running as a lynch candidate today. I feel like our claim makes us town, so if it doesn't then please explain why.

Ghato needs to full claim.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

Lynx was a self-sensor, and upon lynch we got confirmation from the mod that "at least one" non-morbid player was on the Lynx wagon.

Two scum have died so far and both were on the wagon, so the third scum has to be on the wagon.

Tier was not on the wagon, therefore he cannot be scum.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

*two scum have died so far and both were off the Lynx wagon, so the third scum has to be on the Lynx wagon.

[Catastrophe]

Well we know scum have/had a role that could detain Cask's results, possibly one that could mess with the sensor result and we know that they had a beloved princess. The last one alone is pretty heavy, but a backup that can choose when and who to back up? Seems like a bit much.

[Catastrophe]

Also, if we were scum then why would we loverize one of our scum partners with a townie instead of loverizing two townies together?

[Catastrophe]

And why would we choose to loverize copper when like three people were starting to suspect him at the end of the last gameday?

[Catastrophe]

So...you've seen copper display behaviour in most of his scumgames and in some of his towngames. And now you're arguing this behaviour should have made him scum?

As for this, obviously we know we were wrong now because we have a townflip.

But no, I didn't see copper display the behavior in most of his scumgames and some of his towngames. I saw him do it many times across three scumgames and once between three towngames. This led me to believe that it was something he did frequently as scum and rarely as town.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

I don't think our taken action makes any sense as scum - fairly sure there's a better way to use it as scum somehow.

[Catastrophe]

Reck or Ghato.

[Catastrophe]

Medea can you please stop posting, no-one cares

[Catastrophe]

Even if there was a third party as well as the last scum on the wagon that would just lead to a 1v1 between Reck and Ghato, so your suggestion isn't even helping your scumbuddy or misleading town; it's just white noise.

-tso

[Catastrophe]

Ghato's play has been uncharacteristically shit this game.

[Catastrophe]

We didn't loverize copper with ourselves, we loverized copper with Medea.

[Catastrophe]

Two things, copper:

-why would the mod set up a spoiled dead thread in the first place if there was a player capable of neighborizing those players with access to the spoiled dead thread?
-I was thinking that Medea was an action delayer because of their flavor name -- the crypt is used to seal somebody up in the story.

[Catastrophe]

Yeah, I think you're right copper.

Ghato needs to get in here.

Also, I'm going to do a re-read of Ghato and Boo/Reck now that we have more flip info and see how they look for me.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

But we could force a no lynch with two votes >.>

No.

With 4 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

[Catastrophe]

Copper do you see any reason to trust Ghato as town?

[Catastrophe]

Thinking about the setup to see if there is something to be figured out from it. Did someone else in the thread mention Reck's line about having his vote and his wits before him when he claimed?

Ffery put a sample VT role PM in the second post at FtL's request.

[Catastrophe]

Is there any actual reason not to no lynch today?

Personally I am paranoid that scum has some final night action trick up their sleeve that will end the game if we go to night. But probably the more realistic threat is that there's a survivor and that if we go to 1 scum/1 survivor/1 town, town will lose.

Your arguments have not convinced me that there is not a survivor. In fact they've probably made me more paranoid.

Basically I don't trust that you're town, so I'm pretty hesitant to listen to what you say town should do today.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

Prod doge. Hope to make a good post tonight.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

OK I did ISO reads and associatives. Not much to make me lean one way or another unfortunately. So I guess the next step is to consider options as to going to night vs. lynching. Need to talk to TSO about this.

Spoiler: Ghato

-Something I missed in post #246 (the "here's why we aren't posting much" post) was that Ghato said they've discussed having shorter D1s on another site. This means somebody could theoretically look it up and therefore undermines the attitude I've had toward it -- that it looks like a contrived excuse not to post -- even though Ghato didn't specify exactly where else on the web they've been talking about it. That being said, it is still convenient and fails to explain why they've continued to lurk for the rest of the game.
-#302 (responding to Krystal) strikes me as a genuine interaction with a player they don't know the alignment of, but I can see it being faked by a good player. And I do consider both heads to be good players.
-Somebody mentioned #303 as evidence of Ghato being town. I kind of agree -- it does show town motivation -- but then again, the argument has been made that they, as scum, could just offer to do it and then lie about what Lynx was saying. Ho hum.
-Generally speaking though, I do get a vibe of trying to figure stuff from Ghato's posts. They spread the wealth when analyzing posts and also make some insightful points about things people have said.
-I continue to find the insistence that ffery's wording was unambiguous when she gave the sensor result after Lynx's lynch. It doesn't make sense to me and is therefore a red flag. It could be scumGhato accidentally letting on that they knew there was only one scum on the wagon, but then again -- why stick to your guns when everyone else starts to question it? Why not just say "Oh yeah I guess you're right."
-Jumping on our scumreading of copper could be scum opportunism but Reck did the same thing so that's a wash.
-Acting like they aren't sure who the last scum is in #1422 after coming right out and saying that us and Tier are confirmed town is weird. Unfortunately, Reck also did pretty much this same thing so that's a wash too.
-Don't know what to make of the insistence that we go to night so they can confirm themselves. Makes sense from either alignment.

Spoiler: Bookitty/Reck

-#127 will make me respect Bookitty like a lot if they turn out to be scum. It's not un-fakeable though.
-I also see a lot of trying to figure things out and what looks like genuine interaction with Krystal in this ISO, with the exception of post #120. That one looks a little bit self-serving if it's scum talking to scum.
-One interesting thing to consider is that Boo was an early adopter for the plan to lynch Lynx. This would kind of make sense as scum given Boo's playstyle because it's her making every effort to look like genuine town -- she only has town's best interests in mind, and therefore doesn't hesitate when she sees something that's good from town. The thing is, most other people were more hesitant about the plan. I know I was. So I kind of feel like this could be Boo being a little more eager to demonstrate that she's thinking from a townie perspective than a townie would actually be. This would also make sense if scum did indeed have a role they knew could mess with the sensor result. That -- or she's just a confident player who doesn't second-guess herself very much.
-Boo asks Medea three times why they "expected to townread her." She similarly re-asked a question to FtL earlier when they didn't respond to one of her questions, but I kind of feel like three is a little much, especially for something that doesn't really seem to be very important.
-#595 feels like a genuine defense of Krystal (more of an attack on Cask, but it touches on Krystal a lot) and again, if it comes from scum then I applaud Boo's scumplay.
-In #942, Boo says she's fine with lynching Medea. This is after Krystal came in and fakeclaimed the result on Kthx. So this would be scum bussing one partner when they already knew a second partner was doomed. I wouldn't put it out of scum's reach, and Boo had already publicly posted a scumread on Medea, but I also feel like she would have had an easy out here by declaring that we should just lynch Kthx. This is interesting.
-To be fair, she did lose her conviction in losing Medea pretty quickly and then begin pushing for Kthx to be the lynch again. But she said in #942 that she was going to leave the thread and didn't know if she'd be back that day, so she was willing to leave with a Medea lynch still on the table.
-In #1032 Boo leaves open the possibility of Kthx being town. Obviously as townies we can never be sure, but I know I felt pretty freakin' certain at that point that Kthx wasn't town, and Boo was pushing pretty hard for Kthx being lynched as well, so.
-She says she feels like Kthx is scum in #1043, to add to that point.
-Similarly, her statement that she would "dance happily to the gallows" if kthx flips scum in #1059 is an easy one to make as scum because she knew kthx wouldn't flip scum.
-I don't see much from Reck that can be used to determine alignment.

Associatives:

Spoiler: Krystal

-Can't take much from all of the post-restricted stuff, honestly. They null-scumread Medea as well as Ghato and Boo.
-The one non-restricted post doesn't do much either. She townreads both Ghato and Boo.

Spoiler: Medea

-Looks a little worse for boo than for ghato IMO. Has the post where they say they aren't townreading boo as much as they expect to be, which seems a little weird. Then, as I said, boo's response to it was also a little weird.
-Defends Ghato, but reasonably. Could come from partners or not-partners.

[Catastrophe]

Still undecided on the going to night vs. lynching thing. I have a three-day weekend coming up so I can give a little more thought to it.

Copper, anything yet?

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

Right, but at the same time we have roles that might look villainous (raven, house of Usher, orangutan) that ended up being town.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

Well but the role doesn't really make sense for scum to have right? They bring back a partner, but then what? They've already flipped so town will know they're scum.

-tool.

[Catastrophe]

Yeah but what about a redirecter? If that were the case he could redirect Ghato's power onto one of his scumpartners and then town would lose.

[Catastrophe]

I feel like Ghato's claim makes them town.

I'm looking at it and I don't see a way for Ghato to be scum with that claim. It fits with the part of his role that's already confirmed (neighborizer of the dead) and there's no way in hell that scum would have the claimed power -- it just doesn't fit. And it's a really creative role too, so I feel like it would be really weird for scum to actually fake claim that.

It's possible that it could be a mod-provided fakeclaim, but then there's the part about the night actions. Despite my paranoia I can't think of a way that scum would win via night actions if we were to no lynch, but scumGhato in this case would only propose going to night if it would win him the game without going to another day phase.

So basically I'm pretty sure reck is the last scum. But TSO are still talking about this to see if there's something we've missed with regard to Ghato's claim.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

Yeah I don't think we should go to night. If the last scum is between Ghato and Reck, and they both want to go to night, that means scum definitely has something up their sleeves. If it's Reck he probably has something to mess with Ghato's ability and if it's Ghato he might have something game-ending.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

Tier please do not vote no lynch.

Ghato and Reck...from each of your perspectives, the other must be scum. So why are you both comfortable with the other going to night?

[Catastrophe]

*with the other wanting to go to night

[Catastrophe]

OK so let's say he's a bus driver, or some other kind of redirecter. He knows who you're going to be targeting and if he switches your target with Medea or Krystal then scum wins.

Is that scenario completely implausible to you? Or, given the creative nature of the roles in this game, what if Reck has some other ability that can otherwise mess with your result?

Copper has basically said he thinks Reck is the last scum. I've said I think reck is the last scum. If we can just end the day today without going to night where we don't know what's going to happen, why not just end it today?

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

Yeah copper's vote doesn't count if that's what got you mixed up. But it takes three to lynch (or no lynch) and there were only two votes, Ghato's and Reck's.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

Yeah he described it the same as it's written in our role PM.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

I've said this in the hydra PT to tool as well, but I don't really see a scenario here where I don't want Reckoner dead today.

[Catastrophe]

I was under the impression that Ghato couldn't use any active abilities while dead...?

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

When I'm dead, I'm also able to neighborize a living player.

Whoops nvm.

[Catastrophe]

The way I see it, the passive triggers we seem to have are essentially just rules that players know exist but don't know the specifics of. They happen whether we're alive or dead and we can't help whether they get triggered or not, so the mod probably had like four or five (or however many passive triggers we've seen so far) things that needed to happen and was like "eh, whatever, I'll just randomly throw some hidden triggers into random roles." It could have functioned the same way if the mod had simply decided to write a rule about it.

Not that it would make sense to do it as a rule instead of a role trigger, but I see the two functioning in pretty much the same way in this case -- neither of them are things players can control, and they happen regardless of whether anyone is alive or dead.

Basically this is a roundabout way of me saying that I see no reason for the existence of a passive triggered role to make any player town, even if we've only seen it so far in players who are town. The triggers happen whether we're alive or dead so IMO the mod could very well have selected players at random to receive the passive triggers in their role PMs.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

But even

if

Ghato confirms themselves it just means TierShift dies and we lynch Reck tomorrow, so it's just prolonging the eventual conclusion we can still reach today. If scumReck can somehow stop the confirmation or use it to his advantage eg. 1-shot Bus Driver, then it's a bad idea.

I don't see any point in this happening bar Ghato's ego, so I'm against it, but Ghato's staunch insistence on this taking place makes me think there's more to this than we're being told.

-TSO

[Catastrophe]

I, TSO, am ready and willing to vote Reck. I can't speak for tool as of now, but I don't think he'd be particularly against the idea either.

[Catastrophe]

I, TSO, am ready and willing to vote Reck. I can't speak for tool as of now, but I don't think he'd be particularly against the idea either.

Ditto.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

And I'm curious to hear what Ghato thinks of this.

We are ready to lynch Reck. Let's say for argument's sake that Tier is as well. Would you rather go to night than just lynch Reck right now? And if so, why?

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

redirect does not revive scum

OK let's say Reck is a bus driver.

1. Ghato revives copper tonight, killing themselves in the process.
2. Reck uses his bus driver ability to switch copper and Medea/Krystal (doesn't matter).
3. Reck kills Tier (I believe ffery said something a while ago about scum being able to perform night actions and kills at the same time if they're the last scum alive).
4. Ghato revives Medea/Krystal (doesn't matter) instead of copper. The player list now consists of two town and two scum. Scum wins.

Am I wrong?

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

I mean part of this is just the principle of it. From where I'm standing I find it very, very hard to believe that Tier is not town. That means the last scum is in {Ghato, Reck}. Both of them want to go to night, so that means that the last scum is fine with going to night.

There could be a lot of reasons for that. Maybe scum just doesn't see a way to win today and would rather take their chances tomorrow. Maybe Reck is scum and has the ability to block or otherwise neutralize Reck's night action so that he can push a case on Ghato tomorrow. Maybe Reck is a bus driver.

I don't know, but the possibility of a game-ending maneuver makes me uncomfortable.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

I've worked through the things that would have to be true in order for Ghato to be scum and they're tough to believe.

And Ghato

has

wanted to go to night. Just recently Ghato said they would be fine with lynching you instead, but before then they were pushing for a no lynch. It seems to me like they would still be fine with going to night since their reason for lynching you instead was not "oh yeah, maybe scum could end the game if we go to night" but rather "well I guess it would save time to just lynch Reck now and not go to night."

To be clear, I think you're scum, so you wanting to go to night makes me uncomfortable. But on the off chance that Ghato is scum, that pretty much confirms in my book that the last scum -- whether it's you or Ghato -- is cool with going to night. That makes me worried that scum has a PR-y reason for wanting to go to night.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

Wow that totally flew over my head. OK so a redirect wouldn't work.

OK lemme think about this.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

Reck, you're flailing like fuck.

[Catastrophe]

Can everyone step back for a bit here and just see how much bullshit is in Reck's stances right now?

Like, he's moaning that Ghato want to lynch him so they're scum, despite Ghato campaigning lengthily for a No Lynch until some of us put our foot down.

[Catastrophe]

I'll have more time to post tonight.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

I'm talking with TSO about this.

I mean, the fact that a redirect wouldn't end the game makes me feel a little better, but it's just like...I really have a hard time seeing Ghato as scum and why take the risk of going to night where we don't know what's going to happen when we could just lynch the last scum now?

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

Deadline is today. Like I said, I have a hard time seeing Ghato as scum and I don't know why scum wants to go to night so I'd rather just end it today.

Vote: Reckoner

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

Three and a half hours. What'll it be?

[Catastrophe]

Well okey dokey then.

[Catastrophe]

Wait how did you hear from TTH?

[Catastrophe]

Hang on here -- I don't know if I'm being overly cautious but can you tell me if there's a possibility that this message came from scumReck? I mean let's examine this for a second:

-The last scum wanted to go to night (last scum is between Ghato and Reck and they both wanted to go to night).
-At night, you get a message from the mod claiming to have a result that implicates Ghato as the last scum.
-Reck, despite being unsure of whether we were really town yesterday, is suddenly sure Ghato is the last scum.

I mean, to me it seems possible that scumReck wanted to go to night so they could send a message through the mod to you that made it look like Ghato was the last scum.

That being said, in order for that to work there had to have been something stopping Ghato from doing their ability last night.

I'm not saying this is necessarily what I believe, I just want to make sure it's not true before we go through with this.

--tool.

[Catastrophe]

OK so I can't think of a way for Reck to send that message, block Ghato and kill Tier all in the same night. And the timing makes a lot of sense with Cask's results.

What I don't understand is why scumGhato would want to no lynch yesterday when they knew that they wouldn't be able to clear themselves? Was the plan really to pin some sort of scum RB theory on Reck after we already have a flip from Medea that suggests they were the action delayer?

[Catastrophe]

Tool kindly stop screwing up.

[Catastrophe]

vote: ghatokaca

[Catastrophe]

why aren't you conftown?

[Catastrophe]

like there are so many coincidences here and copper really doesn't seem like the kind of person to make up shit in lylo.

-tso