We Didn't Playtest This | Game over, everyone loses

[elusive]

Hi everyone! I'm confirming my replace in!

Titus <3

I don't think I will be able to read 197 pages as Spring Break is almost over but I will try to ISO players and things that strike me.

Looking just at Cuttlefish in ISO and doing light VCA:
1. I've played with a few of the people in this game as my alt (estival) so hi

2. There is a red mafia and an orange mafia. How bastard is this game? I don't see any setup info so is it closed?

3. VC 1.06 - VysePresident was a good wagon and I probably need to look in on those people. Vonflare seemed to the alternate wagon to that (hey you silly flare, no tricks this time ) so the people on his wagon may be more mafia? Ika was also on the von wagon so von may have been the town alternate for both mafia? Also how many mafia are possible in this setup total?
Stopping at VC 2.03 for now.

Oh sadness Vonflare replaced out, he's fun to play with.

Titus, these are my preliminary thoughts and questions. I will ISO the two scum tonight to do interaction analysis and then recheck with the VCs.

Is there anything you think I should know or focus on?

Also Titus, are you town?

[elusive]

Narnian, are you stating there are three outed town roles?

[elusive]

So I ISOed VysePresident and it took a while. My thoughts are that:

Copper is not aligned with Vyse and I haven't looked at him in ISO but probably town or lean town. Post #1135 is a good post by Copper, I'd follow up on all of those reads and lynch there.

Ice, Drixx, Lucian, ActionDan, vonflare, Cerebrus, Bulbasaur are persons of interest. Vyse's reads on these are either too easy, contradictory, too defensive and\or high frequency name dropping. Bulbasaur is probably not his teammate? He agrees with him on things but tries to vote him\get a wagon on him? But the interactions are off and it could be bussing?

What is Vyse's scum meta in terms of bussing if anyone knows?

Also who is Ice or what hydra are they part of? I don't see them on the player list?

Finally, is this setup balanced? I'm only starting to look at roles and claims and finding it a bit odd.

This is the summary of all the things I noted so I can keep track of other IA.

Spoiler:

ISO VysePresident, Notes

Votes Ozgin in response to mastin2

Asks Brantz for scum motivation on Ice

Asks Drixx for thoughts on the game

Wants Bro to contribute

Wants to know why copper is scum reading mastin

“My first impressions are that Om, Wguerts, & Molla are decent, Tripod is indecent, I'm meh on Drixx, while BRantz & Copper are bothering me”
Don’t like the Drixx wagon,"

"Short thoughts to keep this from being completely useless are that I don't like the Drixx wagon, glad to see that dying.
I like Orange for Town a lot more now, Molla for Town still, ChiVi leans slightly Town for the reason Kuribo stopped Townreading them.
(Don't think they'd want to admit that as scum.)
Om is meh-Town. BRantz is scummy, need to look back at Copper to see if he's still scummy. Actual thoughts & reasoning coming tonight."

ReadsList with more pluses meaning more town:
"Town - Ice(+++), BBMolla(+), Orange, Om(-), Trouser(---)
Null - Pika, Lucian(+), Vonflare(+), Drixx(+), Soren, Reubus, Bookskies(+?), ChiVi(+-), ActionDan(+?), Ogzin, Death, Bulbasar(+)
Dead - Narnian, Dani, Jackle, Peregrine,
Scummy - BRantz, Copper(?), Cerberus(-), Toon(-?)"

Need to recheck this: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p6662721

Responds to LucianRoy asking if VysePresident is trying to buddy him. Wants to feel LucianRoy and Drixx out.

"Drixx is pretty darn cool"

Lucian has an odd tone but is effectively leaning town but VysePresident read his other games and the tone is there but he places him in the null and meh reads list.

Okay, the contradictions are endless.

Vonflare is a borderline town read but also thinks the case on him is crappy and also thinks he could be a vig shot. No wasting a lynch on him but maybe wasting a vig on him, okay. whack.

Drixx is someone who VysePresident mentions a lot. "True null" wants to see something more concrete.

"ActionDan is quiet, I'm looking forward to seeing him post more etc, but I'm liking what he does have."

Then has scum reads in Brantz, Cerberus, Toon Fighter, Copper which are also continuing contadictory and vauge thinking. I don't like it.

Interaction with vonflare

Interaction wtih ChiVi who he seems to be null\scum reading but in particular doesn't like ChiVi's focus on Lucian.

Asks players in general about copper meta and then asks copper his meta

Copper just goes up in my estimation because of post #1135. Good work:
"Copper states
ActionDan, Drixx, X
Bulbasau, Vyse, X"

I haven't looked at Bulbasaur yet but the other two names fit with Vyse.

VysePresident 1 vs. 1 with Copper

Vyse Defends Bulbasaur against Copper

Vyse wants Lucian to shoot Brantz, thinks Drixx could be remotely scummy but is not interested in that wagon at all.

Responds to Titus (town reading him?) with a scum read on Brantz.

Respond to Pika with a statement that Brantz and Om are more scum then Marquis. Also argues again that Brantz is not mislynch bait but scum.

Makes a huge case on Brantz and breaks down Brantz's read list by focusing on Copper. Doesn't mention Brantz's read on Lucian.

Pika is Pirate Mollike + ika.

Continously pushes Brantz and Copper as scum.

Around #1814, suddenly stars second-guessing his copper and Brantz read. Then votes Brantz. Once more states he would "take" Drixx for lynch over Jackel but neither of them should be the lynch of the day.

Again VysePresident pushes Brantz and copper. Wants Oranje Crush to agree with him, Oranje starts to see Brantz but disagrees on copper.

VysePresident takes on Ozgin and doesn't like his posts or his vote on vonflare. "The vote on Vonflare is lazy. Where is the apathy on the wagon? (At worst, there's maybe Narnian & Jackel, with Dan on the sides, but I'll raise you an Om, Orange, ChiVi, Lucian & myself"

Again VysePresident focuses on Copper and destorying his arguement.

Jesus, VysePreside again focuses on scum reading Copper.

Wants reads on Ogzin, Bulbasaur, & Copper & Death (2x)

Need to look at this again: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p6677455

Copper, copper, copper, copper

Is okay with Drixx

Votes Bulbusaur and also mention Bulbasaur a lot

Comments on Drixx Vs. Titus drama by stating that he's pretty sure both are town.

Agrees with Cerebrus on everything

Wants to wagon Lihin, Copper and Bulbasaur

Orange on a watchlist, Wguerts as town, Bro as not half bad.

Leans town on Drixx and states its partially because of Copper scumreading Drixx

Responds to Titus

Wants LucianRoy, who points out that Drixx may have done something strange, to "Drop reads"

Need to relook at this post: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 9#p6699449

Copper read again, agress with Bulbasaur who he was scumreading earlier on

Votes Lihin (Hated role)

Puts Cerebrus as pretty town

[elusive]

Cerebrus, thanks. SO that explains two mafia teams. Red and Orange? And SK is being speculated also?

For some reason I thought copper26 was still alive. He's dead which adds to his reads being important.

And Pirate Ika also really trolled him. Pika as it is was hard defending Trouser and so I think that is another scum. Also calls Brantz lynchbait which considering that Vyse tried to kill him means perhaps Brantz is aligned with Pika? Tbone is probably lean town based on them scum reading Pika? Toon is hated on by Pika and Vyse so probably lean town? Death comes up as a vote for Pika and a prod by Vyse. Defends wguert as a VI, why?

Brantz, Narnian seems more lean town. Ozgin as well due to asking Lucian to vig Pirate Ika. Oranje Crush also seems a bit better. Too many names and not enough context.

Does anyone know what Copper's role Facebooker was meant to do or if he might have crumbed anything?

Also I see that Ozgin is confirmed, but I don't see him in the live or dead players list? He should be protected and do we have any other confirmed mafia from him?

Why are "Tropical Volcano Lair Mafia ???" question marks at the end of Vyse's thing?

[elusive]

Titus my role is conducive to certain things, can I crumb it to you (also just to make sure I can't refer to an ongoing game I and another player are no longer in to crumb right? Like I can't say its the same as X's role in X Ongoing Game?)

[elusive]

The question marks mean his role was swept. A possible Janitor could achieve that.

In ToS, Janitor prevents town from knowing what the role and alignment is entirely. Here the alignment is clear but role is not? I'm just wondering about that part. Why only partial, is that normal?

Drixx, I'm really bad at PMs and keeping up with them. I'll send you my Skype and you can add me but I'm trying not to talk to people while in a game with them because my I don't think and talk to much.

Titus, are you defending ActionDan?

So House you are protected at night if you get a scum killed?

There's too many names in this game, its overwhelming.

Also rereading the last few pages, I think scum have an incentive to provoke town. Titus do you think Drixx or Bulbasaur are scum trying to provoke you?

Titus, I feel that only MathBlade would get my role crumbs. Also, I am a benevolent cat who loves town and at some point will need to got to the vet.

Lucian are you the day vig? That's an epic damn role that I wish I could get in a game. Has there been any discussion on limits or where you should target it?

I need to reread Drixx's post #4950. If this isn't a bastard game how is multi-ball even possible? Also if masons are alive after a certain point, they are suspect.

[elusive]

All mafia roles have to have a town equivalent for balance and vice versa? So if we have mass claims (done or ongoing?) then we can match up roles and start by eliminating the roles that break balance?

Someone has been hopefully making a list that they would share? If not then let's have everyone re-claim popcorn style?

Drixx, I am House Hufflepuff and sometimes with a dash of Gryffindor and wary of the Slytherin cunning

Why was VysePresident so talky about you Drixx? Do you know each other and stuff?

[elusive]

ActionDan, what is your role or alignment? Are you replacing out or are you staying? "Inactivity" is a specific complaint enough to warrant execution or extraction.

None of that theatrics made sense to me other then "moral grey zone" which implies being scummy or third party.

VOTE: ActionDan

[elusive]

Well if he can post then why can't he claim or has he claimed already?

[elusive]

Ok, so ISOed Brantz today.

These posts seems good or he mostly has been right about town reads except for Lihin and he soft defend pirate ika for a while before agreeing that Lcian shoot them:

Spoiler:

Posting that I'll be posting tonight to pressure myself into posting tonight instead of falling asleep again.

Short thoughts to keep this from being completely useless are that

I don't like the Drixx wagon,

glad to see that dying. I like Orange for Town a lot more now, Molla for Town still, ChiVi leans slightly Town for the reason Kuribo stopped Townreading them. (Don't think they'd want to admit that as scum.) Om is meh-Town. BRantz is scummy, need to look back at Copper to see if he's still scummy. Actual thoughts & reasoning coming tonight.

-Not a neighbor.

-As a side note, I think Drixx is pretty darn cool.

Actual thoughts & stuff coming tonight.

I am anxiously awaiting this post from you Vyse. Hopefully it will let me know whether you are scum calling me scum or town calling me scum and either way we should be able to move forward.

UNVOTE:

Trouser is probably town (at least I am inclined to put Kuribo's meltdown in that category).
Molla is probably town.
Vonflare is something...
Om might be town.
Don't know what to think of pika yet.
Oranje is probably town.
Boon is leaning town.
Fairly null on ActionDan.
Lucian seems to be trying hard to sit on the sidelines, might be scum (for an example of this see 568).
I was probably wrong about ice, he is probably town.

My read on Copper keeps waffling, but I tend to lean town on him because we have similar thought processes about things (may be bias).

Drixx's most recent posts are the drixx I expected when a case showed up, not the yell at everyone about how bad the case is and how they should feel bad, so null for now but looking more townish.
Death is probably town.

Everyone else is still null

@pika (mollie specifically): Are you posting almost all of the hydra posts so far?

@Dan: Why do you keep avoiding engaging in conversation with me? It is all well and good for you to sit there and throw accusations at me, but at some point you are going to have to talk to me about them.

VOTE: Vonflare

Alright so Lucian, my scum reads.

Vonflare:

Von has done litterally nothing to forward the game, most of his posts consist of things like (90,447 and 825) I also really didn't like 728s flippant reaction to a wagon on him. If his posting isn't scummy it is at the very least anti-town.

Soren/replacement [Magua, town, died]:

618 pinged me as off, even if he has been playing mafia for less than a year (which he said) there is literal zero chance he hasn't heard the term hammer before. Then pretty much every post fro 844 to 1007 is just completely awful. I see no town motivation for the way he was playing. Magua has been interesting but makes me feel a little better about this slot.

Lucian:

Yes, you claimed, and it is even a confirmable one. I don't think that 100% makes you town (unless scum 1-shot vig is something bastard, then I will withdraw my whole case here). But you have tried so hard to fence sit this game that I am not completely convinced you are town (things like 32, 114, 115, 171 (you never voted chivri), 380, etc.) have me feeling uneasy on you.

Firefox is trying to ruin my life, it crashed as I finished my post.

Short and sweet version:

The wagon on me is full of opportunistic voters (

Narn, ChriVi, Jackel, and Von

are the most egregious), and had I been around this weekend I would have claimed a day or so ago.

CLAIM: I am a town 3-shot Psuedocider. I can remove myself from the game at any point

during a day phase,

and be effectively dead until the start of the next day. This lynch will not happen today unless anyone can give me better reason than Vyse that I should die.

Vyse has pushed an awful case against me and an awful case against Copper, and that is the entirety of what he has done today, all he does is yell at people to talk about me and copper, he is trying to force the town to tunnel. VOTE: VysePresident

@Lucian: Are you claiming that it is a scum tell that you had to ask me about my scum read reasons in 1926? If so that is completely awful. Also why point out the obvious about some arguments being potential noise, and the fact that there have been a lot of arguments this game without giving your opinion one which have been real and which have been noise?

The argument between

Cerberus, Copper, and Trouser on page 76 feels like 3 town players

to me.

Post 1877 by

Drixx looks like a potential attempt to buddy

. Cerberus' response to it feels town to me in 1882.

I think those are the major things.

I agree that we should

shoot pika today. If he flips scum I think oranje, Vyse or vonflare. If he flips town lynch ozgin.

Will give it till tonight so people can ask me anything I may have missed or talk to me about whatever, then will leave again.

Brantz, where are you on Oranje and vonflare? Do you think Lucian could be scum or third party? I also agree that scum usually have more space wasting posts such as Vyse with all the "posting to post that I will post."

If copper's thought processes were aligned to yours then where do you stand on his reads on the two scum teams and particularly Bulbasuar?

Also, it seems like you are stating that you are able to switch up your town or scum meta pretty easily? I'm thinking about your role it's kind of like a commuter role but happens in the day phase so maybe more like 3 shot lynch proof with flavor? Why (if any times) did you have to use your role so far? And would it be publicly declared?


Titus, do you remember the game where Fonti was a one shot day vig and also scum? Is that possible on this site or in this game?

Lucian, can you tell me what your scum reads are?

I only know vonflare from one game where he replaced into a scum slot, and was pretty much read as scum but did his best to stick through it. That contradicts with my feeling that scum are more likely to replace then town unless OOG reasons. I feel like vonflare wouldn't back out of a scum role.

Drixx, do you think most people got my crumb and therefore I should just full claim? Or does anyone else think they got my claim? I have been on occasion good at tricking scum from actually knowing my role but sometimes it backfires.

[elusive]

Ok and this is Bulbasaur's compilation of claims:

Spoiler:

@BC, but why? Weren't there a few other PRs that had claimed at that point that would be more pressing to block than a mislynch target?

BB's got a passive-ish role; can't really block him from activating as an RB.

Marquis could've been an RB target, but he died (anyways?), and his ability was for the day, not night. PIka's was just night, so there'd be no way to.

Kuribo/TF are masons, can't block that.

Lucian's a dayvig, so can't really block that.

Chrivi and Cerb are neighbors/masons (or being treated as the latter for now), so we can't block that. And cerb only claimed the active part of his role today, so unless Cerb and PIka were on the same team PIka couldn't have known to block Cerb anyways (and in that case, why would they?)

Jackel claimed tracker, but he died via lynch D1. Can't block the dead.

Drixx is a BP (if you believe him, anyways). Can't block that.

Can't block your DV.

Could've blocked Copper's role, but that'd be a waste this early in as Copper's role gets more powerful as the days go on and more actions are used (I don't think he should've claimed D1, in hindsight, honestly; might not have bit the bullet N2 otherwise).

Narn didn't claim redirector until D2, and his ability has gone off without a hitch, so he couldn't have been the target.

I believe Ozgin got his ability off, and he didn't claim D1 anyways so it's not like they could've possibly known to RB him. Unless Ozgin gave hints he'd investigate PIka. Not sure if he did or not.

Dan's also a BP. Can't block that.

We're a reflexive JK, and you can't block that, I don't think. Besides, we only claimed today, so they couldn't have known.

Boon only just claimed today, although his ability would've been blockable.

PV, von, and Om haven't claimed.

Death is in the same boat as Boon: Ability that's blockable, but didn't claim until today.

Soren/Magua could've been blocked D1, but Mag didn't claim until D2.

Soyeah, there weren't THAT many claimed roles D1 that could've been blocked. Although, I'd think that action resolution would have RB go before a commute, but what do I know?

Oranje
ActionDan
Drixx

Nah
If we have to
I'm on him, ain't I?

@Whoever- to get clarification on the whole thing. Turns out it was interpretation instead.

You mean your vote on us was...interpretation?

Really?

@All - Are we looking at Boxxed scum that cannot find a mislynch to push?

Drixx would be an easy-as-hell to push mislynch, as would any lurker, honestly. So I'm not sure what's keeping them from pushing these.

I'll consider your words with more than a grain of salt tomorrow.

And if Dan gets replaced instead of coming back?

-Ivy

I'm cleaning it up a bit for ease of understanding since some of the shortcuts etc are hard to follow:

All Players + Claims & Flips

1. Narninian - Re-director

2. Pirate Ika (mollie & ika) - Berlin Undercity Mafia Modified Roleblocker - Shot through the heart day two.

3. Toon Fighter - Mason with Three-Pronged Trouser God
4. Oranje Crush (BROseidon & wgeurts) - No claim?
5.

(Ozgin)

House - Cop (Macho or Some other Variety?)
6.

ActionDan

- BP (?)
7. Three-Pronged Trouser God (Untrod Tripod & kuribo & T-Bone) - Mason with Toon Fighter
8. Bulbasaur Commonwealth (Bulbazak & mastin2 & Voidedmafia) - Reflexive JK (meaning what exactly?)
9. ChriVi (Chrimi & Viomi) - Neighbor\mason with Cerberus

10. Jackel98 - Town Public Tracker - Lynched day one.

11. Boonskiies - Town Seer (?)
12. Drixx - BP (?)
13. PeregrineV - No claim?
14.

vonflare

- No claim?
15. (Cerberus) v666 - Neighbor\mason with ChriVi
16. BRantz - Day Commuter (?)

17. (Never-melt-ice) Marquis - Town New Kid on the Block - Eviscerated and incinerated night one.

18. LucianRoy - Day vigilante

19. (Soren) Magua - Town Forgetful Watcher - Nuked from orbit day two.

20. VysePresident - Tropical Volcano Lair Mafia ??? - Incinerated night two.

21. deathfisaro - Town Skeptical Paranormal Investigator (?)
22.

(Om of the Nom)

elusive - Town
23.

(Reubus Swagrid)

Titus - No claim?

24.

(Dani)

Lihin - Town Double Day Foreman - Lynched day two.

25. BBmolla - Passive-ish role (?)

26. copper223 - Town Facebooker - Eviscerated night two.

If this is mass claim, let's fill in the blanks to get a complete picture. I doubt that we can have two BPs who are of the same alignment so one must be scum and the other could be town or maybe 3p?

Also, when "mason" or "neighbors" don't die early on, I think they need to be confirmed otherwise its odd and doesn't make sense. I also don't know why masons\neighbors wouldn't be leading the game early on and expecting death so for all of the neighbors or masons please give a reads list with your town, lean town, scum and lean scum or 3p reads. Nulls are something I'm coming to hate so if you still have a null at this point then you probably need to interrogate them to high heaven.

[elusive]

Titus, do you think I should full claim? I think you get it or why I'm hesitant. SK or mafia might choose to target me.

[elusive]

House, with supposedly three cop\seer\investigator roles at least one or two of them may be scum so yeah and history.

Lucian, can you explain the vengeful part of your role? I don't think there can be two of one kind of thing for town unless there is some weakness (such as odd\even) or limitations.

Titus, upon lynch within 48 hours I may kill one player. My kill flavor will be "blown away." So at some point I will have to be taken to the vet (aka put down or lynched). {...}

[elusive]

You don't have to share the limitations, Lucian, but give some sort of crumbs or hints to them like I did.

[elusive]

Titus, I'll add PV to the list and maybe ISO vonflare and PV today as well. I would honestly like to follow up on copper's reads as I think he was killed early on for having right on the money reads. When I'm lynched I will choose from a group of three in case of some sort of protection and just so scum don't know what's going to happen and can live in fear.

Conflicting or overlapping claims tells me that:

Drixx or ActionDan must be investigated or dealt with
Three-Pronged Trouser God & Toon Fighter state to be masons and one of the investigate roles should check one of these. Masons have to be the same alignment?
ChriVi & Cerebrus - Neighbors, we can't have both sets (masons and neighbors). I highly doubt it. One could be town or both could be scum or both could be town (for neighbors) but then the balance doesn't work for 2 masons and 2 neighbors especially considering all the other roles going on
Lucian - I am still wondering about this and if he's some sort of SK or idk because the choice factor, did anyone else get a choice for their role?
BBmolla - Miller is something I'm not familiar with but have heard a lot about. Have we skipped any nights?
PeregrineV and vonflare - no claims is highly suspect
Boonskiies, deathfisaro, and House - All claim an investigative role, I highly doubt all three are town.

The others I have to think about more.

Also, can someone clarify werewolf (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Werewolf)? Is that a mafia or SK in this game? Usually I've seen mafia called werewolves?

I don't see skeptic here (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Cop) so what does that mean? Also I see Macho cop here and would want to track why Ozgin claimed one thing that made it seem he is impervious to NK (?) and House claims Macho which is the opposite.

We don't seem to have any protective roles? Unless the non-claimers are such but ugh, we don't have any doctor\body guard roles at all? That seems weird and probably not probable? If this is two games smushed into one then there must be some protective roles for balance or ?

1. Narninian -

Kill

Re-director

2. Pirate Ika (mollie & ika) - Berlin Undercity Mafia Modified Roleblocker - Shot through the heart day two.

3. Toon Fighter - Mason with Three-Pronged Trouser God
4. Oranje Crush (BROseidon & wgeurts) -

No claim?

Amnesiac commuter

5.

(Ozgin)

House -

Cop (Macho or Some other Variety?)

Faction investigator of some sort

6.

ActionDan

- BP (?)

to both mafia factions

7. Three-Pronged Trouser God (Untrod Tripod & kuribo & T-Bone) - Mason with Toon Fighter
8. Bulbasaur Commonwealth (Bulbazak & mastin2 & Voidedmafia) - Reflexive JK (meaning what exactly?)

If someone targets them with a night action, they get jailkept instead

9. ChriVi (Chrimi & Viomi) - Neighbor\mason with Cerberus

10. Jackel98 - Town Public Tracker - Lynched day one.

11. Boonskiies -

Skeptic cop

12. Drixx - BP (?)

to werewolf

13. PeregrineV - No claim?
14.

vonflare

- No claim?
15. (Cerberus) v666 - Neighbor

\mason

with ChriVi
16. BRantz - Day Commuter (?)

17. (Never-melt-ice) Marquis - Town New Kid on the Block - Eviscerated and incinerated night one.

18. LucianRoy -

Day vigilante

vengilante (vengeful or vigilante, choose vigilante)

19. (Soren) Magua - Town Forgetful Watcher - Nuked from orbit day two.

20. VysePresident - Tropical Volcano Lair Mafia ??? - Incinerated night two.

21. deathfisaro - Skeptic Seer
22.

(Om of the Nom)

elusive - Town Vengeful
23.

(Reubus Swagrid)

Titus - odd/pair day no voter/double voter

24.

(Dani)

Lihin - Town Double Day Foreman - Lynched day two.

25. BBmolla - Passive-ish role (?)

miller + nightskip if 2nd biggest wagon

26. copper223 - Town Facebooker - Eviscerated night two.

[elusive]

Titus, you know I like to keep at least one card close to the chest. That and who knows maybe I'm trying to eat an NK for Reasons. The problem with town knowing everything is that scum know everything plus they also know who isn't one of them. Therefore, unless every claim is out and confirmable its always best to keep 1-2 tricks up the sleeve.

I agree that if House claim is to be believed then we have a protective role. Oh and protective role, if its not limited, should probably protect itself when it seems like the identity is outed. Also never protect a person who states they don't need protection, no need to reverse psych things.

I'm leaning towards town Titus only because as scum her charisma powers her through and for some reason she isn't being followed which usually means town Titus vs. scum.

[elusive]

Ok, ISOed Vonflare.

Some relevant posts are in spoilers below for later reference.

Spoiler:

@Boon
You are not getting away with your VI routine this game as you use it when you are scum as well. Oranje's vote may well be badly motivated since I am also not a fan of PL's, but why does that mean he is scum?

How come you decided to grace us with your august presence so many pages into the game?

@All
I'd love to see your scumreads and why you think they are scum at this point.

@copper:

ICE reeks of third-party. His claim and blatant disregard for teamwork makes him a candidate for SK. If he isn't 3rd party, he's prob town. Survivor maybe? I can't see him as mafia.

Oranje seems mafia, bc his whole purpose in this thread is directing attention at ice without real reasons. I wouldn't be surprised if he was a lyncher too.

Town with powerroles don't like to replace out

And this game is no-vt.

So if someone is busy but not replacing, it makes sense.

I know I would want to play this game to the end.

Vonflare scum reads or pushes Ice\Marquis, Oranje, Toon Fighter. Actually mentions Oranje and Toon Fighter a lot which screams scum to me because town reads evolve and scum reads stay stagnant or are unnatural. He also pokes at Magua who is also confirmed town. Something about neighborhoods? What is this?

More empty posts and posts defending lack of content. #1979 jumps on a wagon without reason. #2074 is reluctant to lynch a lurker but votes Peregrinev and then writes "sorry" (any other links between vonflare and Peregrine?, both are lurkers who haven't claimed yet). Mentions hypoclaiming roleblocker for some reason due to 1 kill, I've heard of hypoclaim for cop but not roleblocker. #3662 more empty posting. Yep still voting Oranje. Responds to Oranje having some sort of meltdown. Drixx makes some comment about PeregrineV (PV) and vonflare's response is " " Replaces out.

He doesn't see a case on Vyse and actually defends him later on and also doesn't want inactive people to be killed. So it's possible he's a Tropical Island mafia?

And ISOed PeregrineV, relevant posts are in spoilers:

Spoiler:

OK, went back to 37.

I like Orange for town, and Vyse for his recent reads list (yes, despite having no frame of reference)

I like Lucian's claim and won't lynch him.

Adding Magua to my town list.

Vote: ActionDan

Wow PV is out of touch a bit. I wasn't really seriously posting yesterday after "the incident" and vonflare was a lump in the background before that. I haven't decided if he just lacks common sense or if he's scum. When I do decide, you'll know. K?

Yeah, it's something new I'm trying to keep a mafia/work/life balance.

What was the incident?

How is it related to 0 opinions thoughts, mentions or interactions with Vyse, esp. given his interest in you?

Still like my vonflare vote, but since he's replacing, and there are a shit-load of claims....

Vote: Bulbasuar

pending a death ISO.

But, on the surface, Boon's claim feels town, and Death's seems to be a mirror of it.

I was a little :IGMEOY: at Titus' mason doubts, but then looking at the number of investigate roles claimed, if they are legit, then the masons might be lying (both the cop roles and mason roles result in confirmed town. Usually see one or the other, maybe both, but here I think there are 3 and 3 claimed..?).

If not Bulba, then my vote will be for ActionDan.

Not voting Drixx or Titus unless it's only to avoid a no-lynch, which I doubt will come up.

@Whoever

- to get clarification on the whole thing. Turns out it was interpretation instead.

@Molla

- OK, cool

@Everyone else

- Listen to House

So PeregrineV also defends Vyse but he takes the opposite stance on Oranje as vonflare. He has lurker posts as well like vonflare and Vyse but much much more. #1217 votes ActionDan so that needs to be ISOed. In #3340, votes VysePresident when vonflare and VysePresident are both the top wagons I believe, that means probably not aligned with Vyse?

#3364, "With ika being scum, vonflare looks like a reluctant bus." Notes that Drixx has no interactions with Vyse at some point, so now wondering about that. Then Drixx provides a reads list and PeregrineV gets off him without much more explanation. Probably not aligned to Vonflare but could be aligned to Drixx. Wants a double day which is interesting (has there been discussion on why a double day could be pro town? With the double day feature, which would seem super town but then I think what if mafia has some kind of day kill roles to match?), town reads both Drixx and Titus, and then states listen to House (about ActionDan).

Overall, I can see a vonflare being on the same team as VysePresident just based on interactions. Vonflare also has way to many posting to look busy or active posts which I'm not fond of. Then, PeregrineV is a super hard lurker, I mean seriously. I only played with him in Drawn on Arrival where he was scum and pushed mislynches or was more active in trying to get town killed. What is his usual meta? I see links between PeregrineV and Drixx that are unexplained. Drixx is one that I have no real meta for a completed game.

Vonflare has links to VysePresident who he soft defends pretty much throughout and also has stagnant focus on Oranje and ToonFighter as scum. The strange thing about replaces is that if its a scum being replaced it gives them a bit of a reset. At this point I would vote for the slot based on ISO alone but now we have to wait for replace. Same thing probably about ActionDan who I need to ISO but I imagine the pattern of being a lurker and being stagnant in some way are true.

Bulbasaur can you discuss why you are being heavily scum read whether by flipped scum or some of the lurkers? Is it role or play related? Anyone can comment actually.

[elusive]

I'm unsure of the current main-train.

PV hasn't claimed yet, and bulbasaur commonwealth is on that train.

Actually interesting point. You, PeregrineV and Drixx are all on that train and Drixx\PV have some interactions that need to be looked at closely. Why are you on that train and have you changed your mind?

Can you answer any questions I directed at you? Or here are more questions:
1. It was stated that you had a choice in roles, why did you choose one over the other? Can you paraphrase your role claim?
2. What alignment are you?
3. What are your top 3 scum reads?

[elusive]

Ok. what are your thoughts on Titus and Drixx? So what you're stating is that you are sort of active in the game and sheeping House on account of his being "actually involved in this game." Therefore, you have no reasoning of your own to vote ActionDan?

Do you see why you are setting off some red flags here?

[elusive]

RQS works best on day one or when there isn't much to go on, it's day three in the game and there is something to go on or plenty so to speak.

[elusive]

Ok. what are your thoughts on Titus and Drixx? So what you're stating is that you are sort of active in the game and sheeping House on account of his being "actually involved in this game." Therefore, you have no reasoning of your own to vote ActionDan?

Do you see why you are setting off some red flags here?

No, I read him town because a.) he's probably an investigative role, b) I read ozgin's slot as town even before he subbed in, and c) we're hat buddies.
Ozgin also correctly guided my shot at mollie's hydra, and AD probably needs to be dealt with sooner or later.

Misrep all da way.

The above, which I had to extract from you was much more useful then the below which is what you originally stated:

In conclusion, house is my best town read, and if he can't make up his mind when he's actually involved in this game, then why should I make up mine? (Since I'm pretty much the only relatively active person with a vote at the front of this train.)
He also drove the train, he also called for votes, then he said: "Hold up, imma think about this," and dropped from the train.

[elusive]

Titus, as town I also withhold some information. This has been true of all my games and even if I give info I sometimes try to withhold something. I haven't met a town I trust enough with all my secrets.

VOTE: Unvote

If I had to vote based on ISO, I would be voting vonflare due to all the VysePresident connections but he's also replacing out. Then LucianRoy, something seems off there.

I also dislike both boon and death, and if I had to pick one to lynch it would be boon. I'm not sure of the merit in lynching them right now though.

What does this mean? Why would you want to lynch those two? Why isn't there merit in lynching them right now?

Also, those in DOA, which was also called multi-ball, what exactly does that mean? I follow two games smushed together and there doesn't have to be balance (although is it mod confirmed that there doesn't have to be balance?). DOA was balanced out with roles corresponding to town and mafia and two sks and actually balanced even though it was bastard.

[elusive]

Why are you voting Oranje Crush? Reasoning?

Why can't you stick to BBMolla?

Oranje Crush has claimed Amnesiac Commuter, isn't commuter usually either a town role or an sk role?

Then, BBMolla has claimed miller + nightskip. Why do you find this slot scummy?

As in is it play or role or a combination? Why are you voting where you are voting? TY

[elusive]

My nightskip works by me being the second leading wagon, I think he was trying to trigger that

Can you expand on this read or at least quote any former posts you made about it? I will ISO you and Oranje tomorrow or Wednesday when I have time.

Also, has there been any night skips yet?

Nights benefit mafia and sk who can kill but skipping night hampers town investigative role(s) of which we probably only have one and the other are either fake claim or mafia role cop type thing.

It seems to be like skipping night is actually quite beneficial to town? Or why hasn't there been a night skip yet? Is there some limit on the number of night skips?

Also, I wonder why mafia wouldn't kill you yet if in theory at least night skip destroys their chance of doing anything and they have to rely solely on talking their way out of lynches. Why haven't we night skipped more often?

[elusive]

Spoiler: Dead

10.

Jackel98

-

Town Public Tracker

- Lynched day one.

17.

Never-melt-ice

Marquis

-

Town New Kid on the Block

- Eviscerated and incinerated night one.

2.

Pirate Ika

-

Berlin Undercity Mafia Modified Roleblocker

- Shot through the heart day two.

24.

Dani

Lihin

-

Town Double Day Foreman

- Lynched day two.

19.

Soren

Magua

-

Town Forgetful Watcher

- Nuked from orbit day two.

26.

copper223

-

Town Facebooker

- Eviscerated night two.

20.

VysePresident

-

Tropical Volcano Lair Mafia ???

- Incinerated night two.

Actually based on the dead list:
2 Town Lynched Day

1 Scum Shot\Vigged Day
1 Town Nuked Day

3 Town (1 Double Killed) Night

So all the night kills have been mafia\sk or town targets. Day kills have been 1 scum death to 1 town death.

Narnian, ok that makes sense. So BBMolla ability seems pro-town based on just kills so far.

BBMolla if its one use that means you have to be lynched to use it or ?

[elusive]

Hi deathfisaro. I wish you'd lasted longer in our last game, hardly got to know you.

and hi House! It'll be fun playing with you again.

Okay, I have at least skimmed everyone's ISOs, not every post because it's only been a few hours, just enough to form some preliminary opinion and move on, so somewhat biased towards the first hundred or so posts a person made

, but hopefully as time goes by I'll get a clearer picture. My predecessor's boon vote makes a little more sense to me now -- most of the ISOs I looked through had more scumhunting, more interaction and thus seemed more protown than boon's. For townreads there's a lot of lowhanging fruit like the masons.

Spoiler: Plotinus' very preliminary reads list

TOWN
1) me
2&3)

Three

Two Prong Trouser and Toon Fighter because masons. that's good enough for now.
4) ChriVi because mason
5) House because he was scum in my last game. kidding. anyway i thought there was something about his predecessor having an accurate result about something?
6) drixx because we seem to have matching PMs and my predecessor thought that meant something and setup spec is hard so i'll just sheep ActionDan on that until I get to know drixx better.
7) lucianroy because he did that dayvig thing and killed scum

THE MIDDLE
8) deathfisaro the faction cop
9) oranje crush because the wiki says commuters are usually town aligned
10) narninian redirects kills at night. +honesty points and +scumhunting and activity
11) brantz because of that removing themself from the game during the day and being gone all night -- hard to do night kills if you're not in town. though it's 3? shot? so maybe he's mafia with a really good alibi?
12) Bbmolla because night skip thing - that's one of heck of a gambit if it is one. They're in the middle because what if it's a gambit and is really a dayskip thing instead?
13) bulbasaur the reflexive jailkeeper and i'm not sure what to make of that yet
14) Boonskiies -"town skeptical cop" - lots of fluff not much scumhunting
15) cerebrus - weird setup spec ability
16) Titus - not sure what I think of trying to create town voting blocks because I think if I were scum I'd definitely want to get into a town voting block. But I have her in the middle because I want to like her.

SCUM
17) elusive because the wiki says you're only supposed to claim town vengeful if you're scum vengeful
18) peregrienv for lurking (i don't think this is alignment indicative because apparently doing this everywhere but they've posted 26 posts so an average of 1 post every 4 pages.
19) vonflate for scummy posting and lurking. I liked Oranje's recent wall about him.

pedit:

Why can't we just lynch VonFlare today and save the mid hassle of a replacement?

VOTE: vonflare

You skimmed everyone's ISO in that little time? Interesting.

[elusive]

Maybe people should stop throwing the words policy lynch around. It is a stupid pathetic and ****_**** thing. You lynch people who you suspect to be scum not for any other reason. If there were something about their play that was egregious then you ask the Mod for a replace. You don't advocate policy lynches for someone who scum reads you, that is nonsensical and bizarre and also warrants some sort of aggressive tunneling.

[elusive]

The weird moment when the player you are scum reading is being voted, by some people without any good reason and you start wondering.

[elusive]

ChriVi, don't worry I wouldn't replace out because of the chipmunk noises made by some random and I'm trying hard to refrain from doing anything modkill worthy which is lucky for you. I'll ISO you tomorrow instead and discuss the merits or lack of capability evidenced by what I find there. Considering the brief interaction here, my expectations should be set low shouldn't they?

[elusive]

Does the flip happen before or after Twilight?

[elusive]

My thoughts about the ActionDan and now Plotinus slot are dependent to some extent on House and his alignment. The way the wagon quickly jumped on him and off him makes me wonder if it were scum trying to bus a lurker for town credit. I also find his read wall and entry to be unusual. That being that for jumping into the game and barely reading he came in with very strong opinions then me for example and I've ISOed some people in-depth but am still trying to figure things out. Is that coaching? It seems like he's newer to mafia so I find it suspicious overall.

Oh and telling me and others to replace out ChriVI is kind of a weirdly passive aggressive thing to do and makes me want to needle you into a pie. Are you scum?

[elusive]

House, are there any night results or anything at all that you want to share or reiterate?

vonflare, scumboi...why are you always so scummy? How many other people from your team are inactive brats who couldn't take the heat?

Also, did you team get any of the mafia at all?

Nuking from orbit is some sort of scum or sk day vig role? It can't be night activated or why would they choose House and why would it happen right as mafia is killed? Its happened more then once which is why Lucian needs to explain why his is one-shot. Lucian, I'm on to you.

More thoughts later tonight, but yeah re checking my ISOs of Vyse and Vonflare because those two co-defended and there might be more where that came from. If some other town could ISO the people I haven't done that would be awesome so we can narrow it down.

[elusive]

Also vonflare, can your mafia team win with any other teams or players? Or can you share your win-con?

[elusive]

Trouser, I have actually pushed scum to the edge by going into Insanity mode. However, sometimes Mods or other players disapprove of that and also I sometimes untrust my own instincts or waffle. However, sometimes its necessary to make scums feel the heat and feel bad because they are lying liars who lie and can never be trusted with life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness. Or something like that.

[elusive]

Do you ever roll town, vonflare?

[elusive]

Oh nm do not answer that.

[elusive]

Trouser, I have actually pushed scum to the edge by going into Insanity mode. However, sometimes Mods or other players disapprove of that and also I sometimes untrust my own instincts or waffle. However, sometimes its necessary to make scums feel the heat and feel bad because they are lying liars who lie and can never be trusted with life, liberty, or the pursuit of happiness. Or something like that.

I like the cut of your jib, you can fuck my sister if you want

I'm a she and while that doesn't preclude me from taking interest in my own gender on rare occasions, I do find the act of offering one's sister up as booty to be uncouth. And if my brother did it he would find himself missing certain parts of his anatomy. Well at the very least.

Lucky you I can only imagine setting your avatar on fire and pretend its the real thing.

xoxo

[elusive]

Yeah in DOA Vonflare lied to me about his role even though he was lynched so I had false hope. Vonbaby why are you so cruel?

How many people are in your team?

What's your favorite tropical thing?

Who is on the Berlin mafia or SK?

House please do last reads and any other info you have such as confirmed town please, thanks.

[elusive]

Well I'm alive, but I became jobless literally just now. The good news is I still have useful information to share.

I targeted

elusive

last night.

Reason behind picking elusive was setup speccing. As I mentioned earlier, a non-town faction completely getting wiped out and losing repeatable kills hurts the win chance of non-towns altogether, especially early game.
So if there's a lone werewolf SK, early death screws over the mafia factions. It helps a little bit to be able to kill an additional person to counter that drawback in game design.
Elusive claiming vig led to me suspecting she was the SK.

Now vonflare talked about renovator being perma tailor and stuff, but I really doubt on N1 Vyse rolecopped a werewolf and N2 vonflare dressed elusive as a werewolf. Those are really a series of rather random target choices.

So I believe 99.5% that the guilty is genuine. (The 0.5% is about the chance you draw a werewolf, and elusive in 2 runs from a random name picker )

elusive is the werewolf I was looking for.

VOTE: elusive

I'm town vengeful so there is something wrong with either your check or you are bsing. I don't mind being lynched as I'll take someone down with me and my flip will let town know what to do with this.

Oh and I called vonflare a possible Tropical Island mafia so I was right about that.

[elusive]

I'm thinking that death could be mafia? Or the only other thing I can think of is bus driver but you reedirected someone else so I'm not sure how that works? So he could only be town if he was redirected in some way but would he get a message then?

[elusive]

Don't hammer, I'm the SK but I've been obviously pro town. And I forgot to put in a nk because nights are short and I lost track. Town can direct my kill.

[elusive]

Its the fact that he was looking specifically for the SK and the non cop deaths that makes it clear not all claimed cops can be town. Re death.

[elusive]

You're anti town play has been noted. Why isn't there a kill from me then?

[elusive]

Ugh being more town then town sucks

[elusive]

No more I'm confirmed SK which means there is at least one other scum team who incinerates and also possible another who was redirected or blocked and I'm thinking the nuker is another sk.

[elusive]

Town can't have more then two cops. One is dead and from houses flavor he was not crippled in any was as an investigator. That means one more cop is possible. I'm not sure who it is.

I was going to nk Lucian bc vyse interactions point to Lucian scum but I wasn't 100 percent sure and deadline passed.

[elusive]

Oh and another pro-town tip, anyone claiming BP is probably SK. My real role and not my fake role states that any night I make a kill I am BP.

I wonder why Drixx and ActionDan are also BP then, is it because they can also make a kill? And Drixx is particularly immune to me so the real cop should check him in case he's the Nuker SK.

[elusive]

I don't believe you mostly because that seems underpowered.

[elusive]

My win-con is worded interestingly to make me think there is some other person (or maybe group?) I could win with but I don't know for sure.

Anyway, I'm the SK or at least one of them so if we're doing this then let's speed up to the part where I get to be in the dead QT.

[elusive]

Oh and Titus, did you suspect me? I mean I wasn't mafia so that helped me be better at not being town or did you suspect? House sort of suspected but he didn't pursue it.

[elusive]

I don't have a faction name (I am a Werewolf Avatar of Lycanthropy). It says in my win-con though that I win when only my faction remains so I assume another SK or something but I have no clue who they are. I assumed Drixx because why would he be BP to me? But then I don't know and I thought I was going to be NKed anyway due to the vengeful claim.

[elusive]

[elusive]

It's finally over and technically this was my first scum game on this site and I didn't flail but deaths freaking check of me was so so lucky, I wish me and the other wolfy had actually killed someone that night

Yay town, in my head you won because the sheer freaking length of it caused the scums to hang themselves!

Cool setup, lots of roles and fun colors TOURMALINE was the prettiest tho !

[elusive]

I enjoy a little bit of Cruel Intentions so quite obviously my reaction is, "Stop whining\crying\get a backbone\etc". The problem is that there are some people on this site who enjoy dishing it out but don't like being on the receiving end and then start crying.

Maybe there needs to be a sub-forum for people who like to experience a multitude of emotions and are tried of the dominate narrative attempting to strait jacket them into a "fake nice" situation.

I also think if you're playing mafia then at some level you have a thing for sadism or masochism, otherwise you would go make cookies or something and blow rainbow bubbles at kats.

[elusive]

I actually don't remember what happened in this game since there were a couple of things (and I wasn't involved in any of them). I guess from my POV its basically if you start own it and don't complain about it.

The game has a wincon, some people play because they are logical others because they enjoy psychological games or a mix of things. If you're really really sensitive, find another game or join the newbie queue as they keep things safe there.