Touhou UPick 4 - [Aborted]

[fferyllt]

hi guys!

catching up!

[fferyllt]

zmuffin's 24 gives me slight townfeels. he usually comes out and claims town in no uncertain terms regardless of alignment if he's going to claim town. The questioning tone suggests he genuinely feels this way - that his role couldn't exist as scum. Usual footnotes and disclaimers apply because zmuffin.

60 by sakura bothers me a little. 61 is odd too. But, overall the blunt opinions seem more like town sakura than not. 62 made me laugh. yeah I thnk Sakura is town

Very slight townfeels from bork on page 3.

178 can't say I care much for kagami's reads here.

Kilgamayan's 179 confuses me. What is it you dislike about Sakura here?

I don't know why exactly, but pieguy's page 4 tryharding really doesn't sit well, though I am not comfortable with notsci's entrance either.

@pieguy post 120 you've come out pretty hard pushing Sakura, then backed off and backed off and backed off. What did this exchange do for your read?

bork's 198 is another maybe-town post. (I see zmuffin said he didn't like this post on the next page. meh.

Relentless, your 200. What was the misconception and why did your Sakura read flip to town?

Page 5, I feel iike bork is going out of his way to stay wary of zmuffin.

Shadoweh's 136 wait what Team Mafia? otoh I like she's also a little squinty-eyed about pieguy in this post.

149 feels a little like town-gif. I think. maybe?

Bork's 152 feels a little town, maybe.

If Sakura is really comf-town at least you won't have to argue with her for long, Pie, so look forward to the future.

BTW, the idea that people should openly claim literally anything is silly. The scum don't have factional kills, but the scum role in the OP has a conditional kill ability. Do you really think there's no way for the mafia to kill anyone in a 16-player game? Things like character name and number of cards are obvious go-to's for kill conditions.

If you think this is so, what do you think about kagami asking people to claim their number of day cards?

I really don't like thdkms's 175. I feel like sakura's push back was to be expected, and that pieguy looked a little worse for wear in it all.

No Yukari here, I only list good 2hus for these games.

Kilga, considering this is role madness what's wrong with playing the role game early when there's noting better to do?

There are better ways to play the role game than completely buying into TownMuffin based on the -4 thing. Borkborkbork has had a better approach to this. The -4 thing doesn't mean much to me in regards to Muffin's alignment. I don't even particularly care about the clarification that it's permanent. I think it's possible ScumMuffin could lie about that and get away with it.

(For clarification, I'm not saying Muffin is scum, only that casually tossing him into the town bin based on just the -4 is a bad idea. It's also something really easy for scum to do out of fear of making waves by questioning what looks like a perfectly logical conclusion on the surface.)

Sympathizing with pie over Sakura in their spat, Keyboardsmash's #175 is pretty much dead-on. tbh pie's reaction to #101 is basically what my reaction would have been except I might have not made my desire to replace out so public. Also things like #109 are kind of silly when pie was explicitly seriously voting for someone else at the time.

Given the -4 was confirmed by vc, how are you thinking zmuffin could fake this going forward?

Notsci, 214 what are/were your thoughts about bork and about zmuffin's observations?

223 I like this post by pieguy, but I'd like it better if zmuffin hadn't already begun blazing that trail.

[fferyllt]

do you think you'll be caught up tonight?

if so, i'm going to wait until you catch up to comment on anything

It's 20 til midnight my time and I'm on page 14. Insomnia would probably have to kick in.

But, I'm pretty excited about this game so insomnia may very well kick in.

[fferyllt]

Shadoweh re your bork townread at the top of page 10 or so. have you played together much?

Page 11 vote count is interesting. 2 4x voters.

#swag

*shudder*

relentless' 349 gives me slight townfeels.

367 otoh gives me pretty decisive scumfeels.

kagami 374, is this about notsci? I think it is.

390 - I like about half this list of players he's thinking about voting.

397 by sky_paladin is an interesting analysis of the pieguyn/sakura thing.

Whose experience should I trust if not my own? I don't agree that it would be wise to town read Pieguyn based on tone, not when she is obviously capable of projecting a town tone as scum.

also ftr this is why i asked

i don't know how you intend to read me based on tone after that game. this is more the case when afaict a large part of your reasoning for town reading me in Forest Fire was for posts similar to the ones i faked D2 of that game. correct me if i'm wrong or if there is some nuance to this i'm missing

Feysal wasn't in Forest Fire? I feel like I lost context somehow but after midnight so meh.

Twilight

loled.

pie insisting on page 20 that she's not done anything town enough to be townread is paradoxically townsounding to me.

[fferyllt]

if I don't find anything in the next dozen pages that makes me feel better about thdgkdms (how the hell do people remember that? is it a mnemonic?), I'm going to want to vote him.

Maybe somebody with 47 votes will agree?

[fferyllt]

Also, full disclosure ffery, you're prob going to be ready to throttle me when you finish your catchup

have fun!

is this about the relentless lolwagon or do I have something else to look forward to?

[fferyllt]

i would like to see borkiepie do less talking about stuff that isn't particularly important and more talking about who he would or wouldn't like to lynch

This is a good point. :/

Thug - Leaning scum. I don't like his cases for shutting down discussion, and ignoring Sakura Hana saying she could be confirmed.

I like thugkuddums so far.

Why do you like him?

[fferyllt]

{Feysal, Chocola, GIF} imo

I'm ambivalent on basically all of {noddy, bork, Gaiden, Sky, Katsuki} and will make it a point to sort through it later.

Dunno about chocola but rest are horribly wrong.

/post of the day

Why is Feysal read wrong?

[fferyllt]

I am in a neighborhood with Chocola only.
His activity has basically matched this thread, however he was very active pre game. I thought he was scum from this and will share details when I get to my PC.
This is the main reason for me viewing Relentlesses on-again-and-off-again vote of Chocola with suspicion. It seemed to me to be too coincidental in RVS. Scum often vote for each other in RVS and since I *already* thought Chocola was scum from pre game I was looking for it.
There is a reason I asked for Chocola not to be lynched this day phase and I will clarify this if required.

Confirming this neighborhood exists, but I'm not going to read it until I've finished reading this thread. I assume the report of Chocola's activity is accurate because otherwise shouting match.

[fferyllt]

I'm expecting, but don't know, Chocola to flip scum. I'm expecting, but don't know, Relentless to flip scum. But if I could get a flip on Relentless first it would help me to decide if I could trust my neighbour or not - and to submit night actions accordingly.

I am Ran and Chocola is Chen. It's bad for me when Chen dies :/

Why would a relentless flip help you decide if you can trust my slot?

[fferyllt]

neighbourhoods are where all the cool kids hang

i can tell you were never popular in mafia school

I would really like to be in a neighborhood with you this game. :/

[fferyllt]

At just the point where I started to panic about bork, he came in on page 25 and 26 and got pissy. Though I didn't see much in the way of reads.

notsci comes off towntowntown on page 30 in the bork/notsci exchange.

i will say that if that slot does get replaced and doesn't IMMEDIATELY claim everything about their role, i will hammer it

Is this still a thing? I don't want to claim atm.

i doubt it. last time i was in a neighbourhood with someone i got them lynched D1 so i could spend some alone time with fakegod

there's no guarantee i wouldn't do the same here

That one neighborhood you and I had one time worked out pretty well while it lasted.

Anyway, I'll get over it.

[fferyllt]

My eyes have moved over all the words, but I doubt I got as much out of the last 10 pages as I should have.

[fferyllt]

I disagree with my predecessor about the amount of negative utility. I have one card that I think could be considered negative utility, but I plan to defang it if I use it. In fact, I'll defang it now.

I can send an anonymous message to other neighborhoods. I choose a player to be the subject of the message, and the message itself is that the player is evil. The message is opinion-only, not an investigation result.

[fferyllt]

who are your scum reads?

thd and? feysal?

I think you've made pretty decent points about bork and shadoweh. From my limited experience with shadoweh her game interest is in figuring out game mechanics more than about reads, so I'd like to see what she does a little further into the game.

I'd like to interact with bork some. I didn't get some of the impressions I usually get early on when he's town, but there were some posts here and there that I liked. The main thing is the lack of digging at stuff and pursuing stuff. he's been mostly reactive.

I'm not really sure about Feysal. I worry I'm defaulting to must-be-scum because I'm unfamiliar with him.

That's possible with tbh too, but there were a few of his posts that really clanged.

I think with Gaiden there are usually some very sharp edges to his thoughts when he's town. I'm not sure how to explain it, but I didn't get that impression from his posts here

Kagami bothered me at first, but I like some of her later posts.

After I wake up, I'll go through some isos. I don't think I'd get much out of the exercise atm.

[fferyllt]

hi bork.

What's your GiF read?

[fferyllt]

To be honest, I am also kind of frustrated that nobody wants to even bother looking at Sakura Hana with me because they used some random spellcard on the first page but whatever.

This is the reason you think people don't want to vote Sakura?

[fferyllt]

@Kilgamayan have we played together before? Your avatar looks familiar (probably because GiF) but I don't think we have.

[fferyllt]

sorry for bolding all that.

[fferyllt]

hai!

[fferyllt]

probably true.

thd's most recent post makes me think I could be wrong about him.

[fferyllt]

thb hasn't mentioned my slot at all this entire gameday as far as I can find, despite the high likelihood Chocola would have been lynched if he hadn't replaced out, and the fact that my wagon didn't soften at all until several hours after I replaced in. If he's scum, his own lynch became a little more likely as a result of that perturbation, yet he didn't latch onto any of the higher probability wagons fluttering around. he's stayed pretty hyperfocused on players who are highly unlikely to be lynched today.

Doesn't feel like the sort of positioning that scum would do, even if one or some of the higher likelihood lynches are teammates.

[fferyllt]

Kilgamayan,

You seemed to want Chocola replaced pretty badly rather than modkilled. Why?

[fferyllt]

You guys are so quiet.

[fferyllt]

Oddly enough I don't think that's true.

[fferyllt]

Pieguy. No questions for me?

[fferyllt]

178 can't say I care much for kagami's reads here.

what does this mean?

At that point in my readthrough, I felt like it was odd to have a townread of bork in particular and Shadoweh as well. I had some townreads developing of my own by then, but not those two. So, seeing kagami express townreads on other players, not the ones I thought were looking town bothered me a little. That's offset in retrospect by the possibility that she expressed those reads at that point in time because she thought the players were picking up unwarranted suspicion.

Page 5, I feel iike bork is going out of his way to stay wary of zmuffin

probably correct

I really don't like thdkms's 175. I feel like sakura's push back was to be expected, and that pieguy looked a little worse for wear in it all.

so you think scum is more likely to make a post like #175 than town?

It's the same kind of reaction I had to kagami's post you asked about above. When I get to a post where the player is reacting to a post in a very different way from my own reaad I get squinty-eyed. I usually get past the initial concern to look at whether the reaction could have a town mindset anyway.

At just the point where I started to panic about bork, he came in on page 25 and 26 and got pissy

why is this relevant?

It's a note to self to be careful of playing the game I want this to be rather than the game it actually is. bork is a player I want to be town because I like playing with him and want him on my team, and feel like I'll play better if I can bounce ideas off him. It's become really obvious to me in my last few game that I do this when there are warning signs the game isn't the one I want it to be.

I'm not really sure about Feysal. I worry I'm defaulting to must-be-scum because I'm unfamiliar with him.

can you point me to feysal posts you think are more likely to come from scum than town and describe why?

I was gathering up townreads in my readthrough. Feysal was defaulting because he wasn't a townread.

I think with Gaiden there are usually some very sharp edges to his thoughts when he's town. I'm not sure how to explain it, but I didn't get that impression from his posts here

this is reasonable[/quote]

I'm leaning toward voting either Gaiden or bork.

[fferyllt]

I'm going to stay up stupidly late tonight. hopefully will catch some of you in a talkative mood.

[fferyllt]

I'm here.

Bork, I liked your early posts but there weren't any that zinged unequivocal town to me. And there was a long period page-wise where you didn't post much and what you did post seemed more involved in fending off reads than in forming them.

[fferyllt]

It certainly is a vehicle for engagement, though I've been worried that engagement wouldn't happen.

It's possible I'm overly influenced by zmuffin's read of you. he's been here in the thread, and it's his concerns about you that had me rethinking. When you came back around page 25 or so, I hoped that your posts after that would give me a better idea how you're seeing the game.

Instead, I found that you're scumreading a player I think looked pretty town especially when viewing him against the in-thread behaviors of his neighborhood.

[fferyllt]

notsci

[fferyllt]

I'll look back through the Feysel stuff, though.

[fferyllt]

I'm not voting you.

I've expressed willingness to vote you. It's pretty much in your court to convince me I shouldn't.

[fferyllt]

Do you think I should have been able to drop into this game and form a townread of you based on what you'd posted before I arrived?

I've been trying to figure out how to use my own wagon to scumhunt, but the megavote effect kind of drowned out the need for players to take stances on my slot. You're one of the players who didn't take a stance. What should I make of that?

And what kind of coalescing is necessary when 3 players represent 11 votes?

[fferyllt]

My strong townreads are sakura, notsci, zmuffin and sky_paladin.

I got amilder townreads from relentless and GiF and pieguyn.

If there's scum in the BLOOD GOD neighborhood, it's probably pieguy, but I don't think she's scum. I'm just wary of her.

[fferyllt]

Do you think I should have been able to drop into this game and form a townread of you based on what you'd posted before I arrived?

I don't know and I hate this question. It's not up to me to tell you how town I am.
Again you're flipping this around on me - if you come in and don't immediately townread me, am I scum?

It's up to you to show me how town you are. Not tell.

You're one of the players who didn't take a stance. What should I make of that?

Most of that transpired when I wasn't around, but my stance is:
Your slot hadn't done anything really either way and I am voting the person I want lynched.

Fair

And what kind of coalescing is necessary when 3 players represent 11 votes?

This really just sounds like a copout "I can be overridden without really any regard for my voting power so it doesn't matter what I actually do".
Yes, if muffin/gaiden/kagami decide to vote the same person they can lynch any slot they want to. Is that going to happen? Do the way the wagons form suddenly become unimportant?

No, you don't get what I'm actually saying. This is about the data available to me. The lynch would have gone through if I hadn't replaced in. I know my alignment whether the rest of town does or not. I can scumhunt off my wagon, but I'm not sure how to given the megavotes.

[fferyllt]

I couldn't tell you were in agreement with me until we started talking tonight.

[fferyllt]

In fact, it was your post 855.

[fferyllt]

It's up to you to show me how town you are. Not tell.

Why did you ask me this then?

Because it's true. My main gripe with you was that you seemed more involved in defending yourself than in scumhunting.

You have to defend yourself (general you) in mafia sometimes, but developing reads has to be a priority for town, too.

[fferyllt]

I couldn't tell you were in agreement with me until we started talking tonight.

I posted my reads before tonight

I missed them, then.

[fferyllt]

Oh and the other thing - I almost forgot - was that you spent so much time arguing that zmuffin's role wasn't a necessarily town role. In all of that, I got no sense until quite late that you were townreading him.

[fferyllt]

No, you don't get what I'm actually saying. This is about the data available to me. The lynch would have gone through if I hadn't replaced in. I know my alignment whether the rest of town does or not. I can scumhunt off my wagon, but I'm not sure how to given the megavotes.

Ok I'm losing sight of your original point then because I can't see how this relates to it: rephrase?

It was an attempt to engage you on something I've been trying to figure out.

[fferyllt]

what connection?

[fferyllt]

Ah. yeah.

[fferyllt]

I didn't read the disney game closely, but I had the impression he had an unusual approach to the game and tended to get pulled in by shiny things (shiny to him) and stay focused on them for a loooong time.

[fferyllt]

I like Thugkuddums so far.

What for? His activity may be understandable if he has been ill, but his accusations against Sakura Hana and Shadoweh for shutting down discussion were reaching at best. I also don't like how he completely ignored Sakura Hana claiming she would be confirmed tomorrow. I could imagine scum false claiming delayed innocent child, but Sakura Hana was not under that kind of pressure, and it would make no sense to lie today only to be caught tomorrow. I don't see Thug considering any of this.

I thought the only thing it would have really been reasonable to town read me for was my reaction to Sakura.

I also wondered what you meant, but I would not have guessed it was that. I thought your approach was strange, making a case only to immediately back off without pushing it. You don't give room to your scum reads, you give them rope, so I get why Sakura Hana considered it scumpainting. I find it weird how what you apparently considered your most town moment I found the most suspicious.

Bottom line: Explain why you're equivocating your personal "unwillingness to read pie via tone because of last game" to anything about me in

this

game in regard to the viability/believability of how I scumhunt/townhunt.

I had to check the meaning of equivocate from a dictionary, and I don't think it means what you think it does.

This argument has gotten ridiculous. I don't expect you to have an identical approach to mine, but I would expect it to make sense. I don't think it is reasonable to town read someone for behavior they were able to fake as scum, and being partners should have given you an excellent position from which to see her play.

VOTE: Bork

I'm expecting, but don't know, Chocola to flip scum. I'm expecting, but don't know, Relentless to flip scum. But if I could get a flip on Relentless first it would help me to decide if I could trust my neighbour or not - and to submit night actions accordingly.

I am Ran and Chocola is Chen. It's bad for me when Chen dies :/

From your posts I gather that your reasons for suspecting Relentless are at least in part dependent on Chocola being scum, but Chocola is independently suspicious. Would it not make more sense to lynch Chocola first then? I get that you have reason to want your neighbor to live, but this seems backwards to me.

i suppose the biggest issues i have with him atm is that, even with the reads list he gave, i'm not really sure how he arrived at those reads and that i'm not really seeing any sort of game-solving so much as questions that feel rather shallow (or easy to ask).

seriously dude if you've got an issue with my reads then fucking ask for an explanation and you'll get one.

mostly because with a 4x voter expressing willingness to vote him and noddy with his goon squad behind him, it wouldn't actually be all that difficult to make his lynch happen - that sort of grandstanding felt a bit like false bravado in an attempt to come off as sort of indifferent-antipathetic town or something

No; ns hasn't attempted to engage with me or for a read on me the entire game, but yet is positioning himself to vote me after a bunch of other people said he did and that didn't only take me by surprise but it seems like a feeling out or blending in in tactic following others who said they'd vote me
Additionally, he immediately weakened that stance in 636 when I posted 625

Ok, so bork, this I think is the crux of your scumread of Feysal, and it's reminding me of my vague thoughts when backup modding the Disney game.

My 2 phrase summation of his playstyle would be

- dogmatic
- rules of thumb

he reminds me a little of Jake, but more wordy.

Anyway, I don't think his applying his approach to reading pieguy after (afaik) one game where pieguy was a near-totally-flaked member of a 3 headed hydra as a yardstick for how you read pieguy makes him scum. he could be scum, but I don't think this is a reason to think so.

It does make him dogmatic to a fault, though.

[fferyllt]

zmuffin, I think you're wrong about bork.

[fferyllt]

@Kilgamayan have we played together before? Your avatar looks familiar (probably because GiF) but I don't think we have.

You were in Touhou Upick 3 very briefly, as I recall? I don't think you showed up until after I died, though, and it's the only game other than this one I've ever played at this site.

That probably explains it. You were the first person to refer to me specifically in the game thread, and you said "ffery" instead of "fferyllt". Which isn't super surprising since half the site calls me ffery, but it caught my eye because I couldn't remember playing with you.

[fferyllt]

Actually I've been explicitly avoiding discussing a few things since ffery replaced in

One such thing is ffery's claim, what it means about her alignment (if anything), in terms of both the role itself and whether the fact she openly claimed it means anything. I am disappointed no one else thought it was an interesting discussion point (unless I missed it somewhere in my skimming)

There've been precious few questions of any sort for me. :/

[fferyllt]

Yeah I'm leaning town enough on bork that I don't want to vote him.

[fferyllt]

ZMuffin, I don't particularly want to lynch Feysal?

As far as the rest, you should probably download update to your ffery model.

Shadoweh why you want to lynch tdh?

[fferyllt]

Early on you said it was because he was lurking. is there more to it?

[fferyllt]

the reason i want to see who bork and ffery think is scum (outside of feysal)

Then I don't know what this is about.

[fferyllt]

why is the feysal line there the part you focus on when it literally isn't important except insofar as i don't want to hear "feysal" as an answer to the questions i asked

It jumped out at me. The rest of the stuff you're coming up with looks associative to me and I don't really see any reason to change what I'm doing and thinking so far purely on the basis of you thinking I'm part of a scum grouping. That particular assumption is wrong.

You've played with me often enough to know how I approach day 1. I'm a little off my usual approach partly because of reassessing my life choices after helping a town lose my last completed game due to sheer inaction and fear of making a bad decision in lylo. And partly because nanowrimo, but I'm still working through this from a town/poe lens.

Slowly.

[fferyllt]

Gaiden. And don't like Shadoweh's last post, and haven't liked much from her that I can recall. Sometime today I'll go back and reread the gestalt team mafia thread and see how Nacho came to a townread there. I scumread her play in that game, but went with nacho's read while I was alive. And she was town.

The other players I'm still null on I'd rather not lynch.

Kagami had some reasons for townreading thd that I don't understand (because she didn't explain) but I'm willing to save that for another day.

Kilga is another null, but the extreme-hated status seems pretty harsh for a scum role.

It's just really strange to me that so few players have taken much of a stand on me since I replaced in.

p-edit I think this is what you're asking for.

[fferyllt]

You didn't exactly ask it, but pushng me for a four-player lynch pool is asking for something I very seldom do on day 1 of games where I was there from the start.

[fferyllt]

This is very frustrating, muffin.

With some players who misread me early on, I can lay bare my town soul and they can see why my mindset is a town mindset. When you've misread me in the past, it hasn't been a focused misread, and you've eventually figured it out.

I don't know how to meet you halfway right now. I have hopes for tomorrow, though. I still think a neighborhood would help, though I'm paranoid about scum gatecrashing.


Which is actually my main reason for wanting to lynch Gaiden. Which is equal parts paranoia and setup-spec. So meh.

[fferyllt]

i've never seen you have an issue with coming up with a lynch pool, even if you call them "not as town" or whatever

Then you haven't been paying attention.

[fferyllt]

what exactly did bork do or say that made you think he's town, btw

i figure i should pretend it was an organic read and ask you about it

or how specifically did you go from willing to lynch him to thinking i'm wrong

It was the flavor of his aggro with me, and it was going back through his early day 1.

It's not really an organic read. Not yet, anyway. The organic read was derailed around the time he went v/la or whatever it was, combined with you scumreading him. I'm worried I"m wrong. And I'm worried I'll play the game I want this to be.

[fferyllt]

show me a game you've had any issue tiering reads in such a way that you were unable to come up with a list of players you'd be willing to lynch

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=62686

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=54&t=59051

There are others, but the first is extremely recent and the second was a late replace-in, though not under any real pressure, and I replaced into a mason slot and was able to build off Tammy's reads right from the start.

It's probably a little worse here because there's been so little damn activity since I joined.

[fferyllt]

I'm worried I'll play the game I want this to be

every time you throw lines like this out there, i think it's far less likely you're town

I think keeping that in mind is going to be the lynchpin of rebuilding my game. Expect to see it occasionally.

[fferyllt]

notsci.

[fferyllt]

Fery

pieguy makes me nervous. :/

[fferyllt]

yeah because I sure don't have any basis for my own.

What does Sakura think of Gaiden lately?

[fferyllt]

What was the first?

And yeah, I'm not really in the mood for subtleties atm. I'm pretty frustrated with this game for only being in it a couple days.

[fferyllt]

The thing about the townread on me being wht I wanted to hear and then the paranoia bit about pie

I'm trying to phrase it correctly but its basically

"I like being townread, and I am susceptible to pie-anoia" and you doing both kinda makes me do a double take but I'm really not sure I want to lynch you in the first place which is why my vote's on shadoweh!

Between the game state, your neighborhood composition and the voluntary aspects of it, and my own recent experience playing with you, I feel pretty good about you being town.

You'll just have to deal with that until I have some mid-game freakout, I guess.

[fferyllt]

My 2 phrase summation of his playstyle would be

- dogmatic
- rules of thumb

he reminds me a little of Jake, but more wordy.

I have been called wordy by more players than I can remember. Your first two phrases are new to me though.

Anyway, you seem to have misunderstood which game I'm using as reference for how to read Pieguyn, and Bork. Our last game together was Micro 537: EoSD where I was fooled by Pieguyn, which ended just before this one started.

Ok.

I still feel that using "how I read someone", which is extremely contextual to your depth and breadth of personal experience with the player as a yardstick for assessing how someone else with entirely different depth and breadth of personal experience reads that same person can be pretty error-prone.

I tend to use myself as a yardstick for measuring other players reactions, too, especially in the absense of meta experience. As time goes on, I find my mental footnotes and caveats are more wordy than the reads themselves.

[fferyllt]

post 897 happened.

[fferyllt]

post 897 happened.

Right, and did you ever explain what exactly borkie porkie puddin' and pie did that made him look town to you? I remember something vague but I don't remember liking the explanation

It wasn't one specific post. It was the aggro and the things he reacted to about my posts - the correct read of my trajectory going from thinking his early posts looked a little town, liking his interaction with notsci when he came back, and somehow inexplicably (in terms of what I posted in thread) winding up willing to vote him. In some players, some of that push would actually look scummy to me in a vaguely caught for the wrong reasons way, but town-bork gets a lot of data from how people push or scumread him.

[fferyllt]

liking his interaction with notsci when he came back

what is this referring to and why did you like it

619 and other posts in that area. Why? It reminds me of how he's reacted pugnaciously to scumreads as town in other games we've played together. He has this baseline belief that he obvtowns as town. The thing that's missing (and wasn't entirely missing in his reaction to me) is incredulity that notsci could possibly get this wrong as town.

[fferyllt]

Sigh.

I'm reviewing a game I was thinking about when I was going through bork's posts yesterday.

The level of aggro was considerably higher.

I know what it feels like to be town on your back foot in a game. Could be projecting.

You are an overwhelming player muffin. It's like playing in a deep gravity well. Every time you push me about my bork read, I question myself.

You're not infallible though. Especially not in the early game.

I almost wish I weren't so sure you're town.

[fferyllt]

I can't definitively prove I'm town by day 2. But I think by day 2 I'll be a lot less of a concern.

[fferyllt]

My style has changed in the last year or so. After the Swag game I stopped playing for a while because there's a terrible flaw in my town game that I have to fix. I'm not sure how to fix it, but not playing at all isn't the route.

So.

[fferyllt]

vote: SXTLHGaiden

[fferyllt]

You think Gaiden is town?

[fferyllt]

My reads are definitely influenced by zmuffin. But, I think my vote is more likely to bug him than not.

[fferyllt]

Do you think town got 8 extra votes?

[fferyllt]

because of the three multivoters, he looks less town to me.

[fferyllt]

zmuffin and gaiden have 3 extra votes each. kagami has 2 extra. That's 8 extra. Or 11 total among them.

[fferyllt]

Ok, talk to me about why Gaiden looks more town than Kagami.

[fferyllt]

Oh i see, so you were counting Kagami there, i thought you were only counting muffin and gaiden's 4x vote (which is 3 extra for each).
I still don't see why there has to necessarily have to be scum among those. It looks to me like you're using people's voting powers as a cop out to do some fake scumhunting (or lazy scumhunting at best which is unlike you)

I have to figure out how my role fits into a game with this many extra votes. I think I have, and I think it makes sense for some of the extra votes to be in scum hands.

[fferyllt]

Ok, talk to me about why Gaiden looks more town than Kagami.

Please do this.

[fferyllt]

Not everbody answered her question about daytime spellcards.

I haven't played with Gaiden very often, but the last time I played with him as town, he was following the thread very closely and seemed to always drop into the thread at precisely the right moment to say something - never too soon, never too late, and never more often than necessary. I was leery of him at first, but reached the point where I trusted him as much as I trust anyone I don't think I know how to read.

he's much less present in this game.

[fferyllt]

Oh look!

[fferyllt]

Do you think that refutes my impression of his play so far? To me it just show's he's watching like a hawk and has been happy with how things are going on their own.

[fferyllt]

gaiden's always happy
and pretty much always watches threads like a hawk
i'm just not being subtle about it right now

What are your reads?

[fferyllt]

how do you approach the game if you can't form reads?

[fferyllt]

Why do you assume Sakura is town?

[fferyllt]

unvote:

I'm lost. I don't think I'm going to get found.

Guys, just run me up and make me claim. I have a role I think would be really cool in the right hands.

I'm not the right hands. Not this week. Maybe not at all.

zMuffin, I really wish we were neighbors this time.

[fferyllt]

I don't think I have it in me to obvtown right now. I hate what that means to the game.

[fferyllt]

Ok, so trying to look at this game through the lens of what has happened to my slot - namely that the slot would be lynched a few days ago if I hadn't replaced in.

Scum team should have been perfectly happy to let that happen. I know this because I know my slot's alignment. It's speculative to other town, but not to me. Town team should also not have been too terribly concerned. It was a lurker slot likely to be mod killed in a few days so no great loss.

Players who never appeared to give much of a shit/willing to deadline vote

thd - from ctl-fing his iso he's had nothing to say about my slot at all, regarding either occupant.

bork - had chocola as null prior to my replace-in. No comment on the move to deadline lynch the slot, but his participation at that point was pretty sparse.

feysal - only comment about chocola prior to my replace-in was suggesting to Sky_Paladin that it made more sense to lynch chocola than to lynch relentless, who Sky_Paladin had as "maybe scum with chocola"

GiF - one comment about pieguy's scum list (don't know about chocola but feysal/gif were wrong). Deadlined voted chocola at zMuffin's behest. It's hard to fault this, but I kinda want to because GiF usually puts more thought, if not more in-thread words, into lynch decisions. Even when he doesn't explain, I can usually trace the thought process. The only possible thought process is deadline lurker lynch, which strikes me as oddly lazy given his lack of scumhunting prior to this. Still his comments about there being a reason for this approach and he'll do more on day 2 strikes me as reason enough to leave him be today. he knows precisely the impression his play has left, and as scum he's quite capable of looking extremely town with not much more effort than he's displayed here.

Kagami has an actual trajectory on my slot. 590, defers to Sky_Paladin but thinks Choco is a reasonable lynch. 687 the lynch has appeal but 703 no reason to think choco is scum and then 706 questions about meta-reasons for choco thinking he'd have time to particpate, but not actually be able to. And then the vote in 757, saying she wants to give Bork another day. She deflected off relentless in 590 and off bork in 757, while making it clear that although she liked the idea of lynching my slot, she didn't think it was a scum slot. It's a relatively long trajectory in terms of the game state. She was laying down a trail to this vote. It's the combination of these stances that makes my eyelid twitch. Could be coincidental, but this concerns me.

katsuki - blatantly, intentional horrible iso. not the slightest stance on chocola or anyone else. Doesn't look like scum-katsuki but one of these days he's going to play this way as scum and laugh all the way to a win. hopefully in a game I'm not playing with him.

Gaidin has nothing to say about chocola. or most other players. meh.

zMuffin has lots and lots and lots and lots to say about chocola, and probably even more to say about me. I think he's town.

Seemed interested in saving the slot

Kilgamayan - actively pushed for the replacement, called for me by name. Gives me a twitchy feeling that I was under discussion outside the game thread. But, I can't see why scum would want me replacing into an easy-lynch lurker town slot. No matter how badly I may play (which is usually not all that badly imo :/) it's harder to lynch the slot with an active player in it than a lurker. I know the rejoinder is going to be "it makes plenty of sense to try and get a lurking scumbuddy replaced with a player with a pulse". But, I at least know this isn't what happened, and even if it were, he's been pretty blatant about it, which would tie him to me if I were scum.

notsci - wasn't in favor of lurker lynch. Suggested Shadoweh instead. This is one of many small reasons I'm townreading notsci btw. Though he didn't change the tide, and maybe could have? Probably not.

pieguyn - 503 hopes the slot gets modkilled (as opposed to wanting to lynch it - gives a slight town sense because why waste a lynch on a lurker if you don't have to?). In 642 suggests a scumteam of Feysal, Chocola, GiF with no basis. Also in 641 comes out against the same lynches that kagami opposed (relentless and bork). Also, as a note 667 about Sky_Paladin is kinda weird. Yes, in the prior game there was a huge conflict between the two slots, but I'm not seeing the same kind of play from SP at ALL in this game. I half-expected this game to follow a similar path when I started reading the thread, but that's not what happened. So why ask for others to read Sky_Paladin here? There's a fair bit of what I feel is nitpickery going on regarding Sky_Paladin's posts later on. But, this post is supposed to be all about reactions to MEEEE so I'll drop this for now. 685 is a bit heavy on the justification for supporting a Chocola lynch. Then she votes 766 saying "subject to change when she gets back to a PC. A vote that I note still hasn't changed!

Sakura - per 311 forgot chocola exists. 752 votes bork, says would be ok with chocola but time for compromises. deadline votes chocola. I like this, not least because chocola isn't being used as a bork-shield here and I have bad vibes about that happening in a couple other isos.

Shadoweh - chocola is an afterthought in 486. Asks about Chocola's posts in the neighborhood. One of the few people who did, which I kinda like. In 754 she says this is not like Chocola's scum game. Asks if Sky_Paladin can claim his role from the neighborhood in 781. I was expecting to find stuff to hate in her position on Chocola, because I'm getting pissy about her posts since I joined. but I actually like that she was trying to draw out more info and figure out if the lurking was alignment indicative.

the_relentless. rvsvoted chocola, switched to sakura and then switched back. some back and forth to the effect that the chcoloa vote was a joke. In 310 he prefers a chocola vote to feysal or shadoweh. 312 expresses annoyance at chocola saying he'd catch up and not doing so. Swtiches to notsci in 316 and asks chocola to step it up or explain why he can't basically. 390 has chocola in a large pool of players he's willing to vote. 527 is talking to chocola (not really game related) rather than about him. 767 opposes a lurker lynch on a player likely to be modkilled. All in all, I like this and don't get a sense of agenda from his posts to/about chocola. Which agrees with my overall read so yay.

[fferyllt]

I'm putting this in a separate post because I don't want it to get lost in my ISO.

The big take-aways for me are the similarities in kagami's and pieguyn's trajectories regarding chocola and the players they preferred lynching chocola over. It's a point of concern to me that I hope doesn't get lost as this game progresses.

[fferyllt]

I can't even begin to list the reasons why. Pretty much everything he's posted tracks to his approach as town, from that very first post where he seemed contemplative about whether his multivote made him inno child levels of town.

There are some games where I hesitate and take a long while to figure him out, and nearly all his scum games that I've played with him fall into that subset of games, along with several town games, so it's not a cut and dried thing at all. Then there are games like Serum and Steel and to a lesser (but not much lesser) extent Tales of You, where his first post makes it abundantly clear and everything else follows from there.

This is one of the latter games.

I would bet the game on his alignment.

[fferyllt]

What do you take to the overall scum trajectory in this game?

I'm not sure what you're asking.

[fferyllt]

I'm not sure. If I were, I'd know where I want to vote today.

I'm leaning back toward bork being scum, partly because of the way chocula kept being pushed as an alternative lynch, more than bork's own posts. But following that trail departs pretty far from what I see as my day 1 strengths. Approaching day 1 in my usual mindset isn't happening this game so far. :/

[fferyllt]

Well, 1098 suggests something about what you think scum are aiming for here.

You posit some subset wanted to lynch your slot and paint it as a lurker PL, while some other subset is ok with that while backhandedly defending your slot, perhaps.

Or if bork is scum and you were the CW, then scum had a more central role in the choco push, no?

What does the constituency of a bork team look like to you?

If I'm right, then the constituency looks a lot like you and pieguyn.

[fferyllt]

That's not what I thought you were asking, because I thought that inference was pretty obvious, given I pulled it out and posted it seperately for emphasis and ease of location.

[fferyllt]

It might be super easy if Pie had caught up with the game.

And it might also be super easy if I had reason to think I can sift through that sort of stuff and tell the random from the meaningful.

Right now, it's something I want to hold on to and see what unfolds. And more importantly it's something I don't want to die with me in the event of my demise.

[fferyllt]

So then your vote is super easy, no?

You'd vote pie, since I'd have to pretend that something happens that prevents me from killing bork on D2.

Why would I vote Pie over Bork?

[fferyllt]

hmm.

[fferyllt]

Then you'd be giving me an excuse not to deadify anyone, no?

If you're wrong on only me, then bork is taken care of anyway.

I missed the significance of some of this discussion. Which maybe weakens the pattern of similarity in your stances with Pieguy's. At least on the surface you have some different reasons - that weren't revealed at the time you were taking those stances - for preferring bork not be lynched today.

[fferyllt]

Scum spying has been a concern to me since I joined this game.

Though I don't think it will be eavesdropping because of the way my neighborhood PT's OP is worded. I think it has to do with people being able to join neighborhoods.

[fferyllt]

Was going to ask why notsci over Feysal, but yay scumclaim?

[fferyllt]

What makes you think your neighborhood was spied on?

[fferyllt]

You know I don't always do trajectory analysis.

The whole post was mostly an effort to see if I could get my head better into the game.

[fferyllt]

Partly just trusting zmuffin's read. Seeing the stances on chocola vs bork was external to that, but I think supported the read.

[fferyllt]

My read went back and forth, though, 4 or 5 times.

whiplash inducing. :/

[fferyllt]

But now my question is whether that pattern was actually meaningful or if it's random noise.

[fferyllt]

I feel like kagami tried pretty hard to steer me toward pieguy rather than bork.

There's probably something to be gleaned from bork's spell cards.

[fferyllt]

ah so it wasn't before bork's post.

[fferyllt]

Given his were stealth votes, I wonder if I can ramp back on the paranoia about public multivotes.

[fferyllt]

I can see it null. . why do you think it rates town points?

[fferyllt]

I wouldn't have ranked them better kills, but meh. I don't really feel like I've got a good grasp of this game.

[fferyllt]

I'm here.

[fferyllt]

Also, as a note 667 about Sky_Paladin is kinda weird. Yes, in the prior game there was a huge conflict between the two slots, but I'm not seeing the same kind of play from SP at ALL in this game. I half-expected this game to follow a similar path when I started reading the thread, but that's not what happened. So why ask for others to read Sky_Paladin here? There's a fair bit of what I feel is nitpickery going on regarding Sky_Paladin's posts later on.

1. do you think this means anything in terms of Sky's alignment in this game? his play being really different from the last (town) game is mostly what I was hoping to get out of that conversation, I thought he might have been scum for it.

the point I was trying to make in 674 was that Sky was pushing that Sakura didn't have a "strong reaction" to my initial push when in reality this is entirely unreasonable, aka it read like a disingenuous argument - the further point about my reaction backed this up because I had explained the reasoning for it in the game thread. can you walk me through in more detail how this was "nitpicking"? even in hindsight I don't agree and Relentless had mentioned he does this as scum.

I think he's town. I could be horribly wrong, in which case that may become apparent tomorrow.

the most town thing I remember from him was the stuff about the neighborhood, but IDK if it's fakeable.

The neighborhood stuff, and the stuff posted in the neighborhood are why I think he's town. Without that, I'd probably have him at null.

2. what is your current Shadoweh read?

mixed. I liked her approach to trying to figure out chocola. Not much else has struck me as town mindset though.

[fferyllt]

You could be right about the first line.

I'm extremely annoyed about all the efforts to stitch me together with bork, eithar as his scum partner or as a better lynch. I don't think all of those efforts come from an uninformed place.

p-edit I agree on the pre-planning.

[fferyllt]

kagami, sakura, zmuffin. I was misremembering Shadoweh as also involved in that, but she wasn't.

I'm townreading sakura and zmuffin. So, kagami catches my attention.

I'm in conspiracy theory land about bork's ability to stop her daycard when she happens to be threatening to daykill him.

[fferyllt]

also I wanted to ask what your read on me at this point is.

I'm not townreading you.

[fferyllt]

also I wanted to ask what your read on me at this point is.

I'm not townreading you.

[fferyllt]

He only needed to use 6 cards to lynch ns.

If the scumteam has shenanigans to protect him from any vigs coming after him tonight, and I imagine they do, he'd save the kagami or relentless card in hopes of forcing us to lynch him tomorrow.

I think it was likely a somewhat improvised move.

how do you know the cards account for the votes?

[fferyllt]

have there been dual mechanic cards in the earlier games?

[fferyllt]

So, kagami catches my attention.

Weren't you talking earlier about "how is gaiden towneir than kagami"?

It's like you thinnk absolutely nothing in this game has happened since that post.

[fferyllt]

Not to my knowledge.

Bork voted earlier with a single vote, he used 7 cards that he otherwise had no reason to use and then he has 8 votes.

So you think preventing others' spell cards was incidental.

Maybe so.

[fferyllt]

insurance that no cards played up to that point could negate his megavote hammer.

[fferyllt]

Ok, so a lot of those people must be town by that theory.

And whence came the megavote?

No, I figured that not all his cards work on town. That would spotlight the hell out of the scumteam if they are all negate-town cards.

I assumed the megavote was an ability.

But, I think your theory is more elegant.

[fferyllt]

This pretty well sums up my thoughts about GiF.

GiF - one comment about pieguy's scum list (don't know about chocola but feysal/gif were wrong). Deadlined voted chocola at zMuffin's behest. It's hard to fault this, but I kinda want to because GiF usually puts more thought, if not more in-thread words, into lynch decisions. Even when he doesn't explain, I can usually trace the thought process. The only possible thought process is deadline lurker lynch, which strikes me as oddly lazy given his lack of scumhunting prior to this. Still his comments about there being a reason for this approach and he'll do more on day 2 strikes me as reason enough to leave him be today. he knows precisely the impression his play has left, and as scum he's quite capable of looking extremely town with not much more effort than he's displayed here.

I'm leaning town on his slot, pending him actually doing stuff tomorrow.

[fferyllt]

I figured that not all his cards work on town. That would spotlight the hell out of the scumteam if they are all negate-town cards.

I assumed the megavote was an ability.

But, I think your theory is more elegant.

Yes, my theory is kind of obviously correct >.>

So what did you glean from the spellcards?

fuckifino basically. I wonder if he had a list of dolls corresponding to every player/character, and was able apply each card to some number of potential targets, or if he had cards that were specific to negating one specific player each.

Is there a flavor reason to assume how the targeting of those cards work?

[fferyllt]

The targeting looks to have been player-specific from game-start. I don't see a flavor connection by doll-type.

I'm just surprised that the doll -> vote connection didn't jump out at you given a stated interest in gleaning info from the cards.

The info I wondered about was if each card was specific to a player. There's something about his using a card on me that made me think there might be multiple potential targets he had to choose from.

[fferyllt]

Then FG has a sense of humor.

[fferyllt]

This pretty well sums up my thoughts about GiF.

GiF - one comment about pieguy's scum list (don't know about chocola but feysal/gif were wrong). Deadlined voted chocola at zMuffin's behest. It's hard to fault this, but I kinda want to because GiF usually puts more thought, if not more in-thread words, into lynch decisions. Even when he doesn't explain, I can usually trace the thought process. The only possible thought process is deadline lurker lynch, which strikes me as oddly lazy given his lack of scumhunting prior to this. Still his comments about there being a reason for this approach and he'll do more on day 2 strikes me as reason enough to leave him be today. he knows precisely the impression his play has left, and as scum he's quite capable of looking extremely town with not much more effort than he's displayed here.

I'm leaning town on his slot, pending him actually doing stuff tomorrow.

so I assume this means you didn't specifically read his comment towards me either way.

didn't you say in UPick 2 trolling/playfulness is more indicative of town GIF?

I probably did. And his comment didn't strike me at all in my initial readthrough. My iso review today was focused on stances on my slot because my slot was almost deadline-flipped and for me, those stances are as useful as a lynch-wagon.

I wish wagon analysis were a strength of mine.

[fferyllt]

If anyone can somehow donate a daycard to thugcuddles, it would be useful.

What changed your opinion?

[fferyllt]

One can hope.

[fferyllt]

I may be drunk.

Maybe.

Well, yes. yes I am drunk.

New Belgium Brewery's Seasonal White IPA isn't too shabby.

[fferyllt]

That variety pack is pretty solid.

Variety packs usually have some awful hefeweizen or something tha5 sits in the cabinet for months. The black lager in the variety pack is passable, and it's the least loved beer of the bunch.

[fferyllt]

One thing that's bothering me a little bit about Kilga is that his scumread of sky_paladin only seems to come after Pie talks to me about sky_paladin with concerns about his play this game vs Touhou uPick III and a recent scumgame. Prior to that, I don't see a whole lot of concern about sky_paladin in his iso - just some questions about his pie/sakura reads/line of questioning.

[fferyllt]

@thd

what did you do last night?

[fferyllt]

Kilga can you explain your daystart vote on GiF?

[fferyllt]

After thinking it over this is where im currently at for possible scum: bork/Feysal/GIF/???

Feysal tried to discredit my muffin townread pretty much the same as bork did, this would heavily point towards muffin being town.
The last scum could be keyboardsmash as pointed out earlier.
GIF's reads this game are... really underwhelming and i dont understand the Feysal townread atm.

What happened to your scumread of me?

[fferyllt]

Then you're still on the wrong track

[fferyllt]

That sounds like seriously seriously not caught up. and town.

[fferyllt]

ummm... what?

Are you still able to gatecrash?

[fferyllt]

Relentless was your occult ball a day action or a night action?

[fferyllt]

I am so confused.

My role terrified me.

[fferyllt]

looks like sky_paladin shot ffery instead of one of the three people who claimed scum yesterday so *shrug*

I trusted sky paladin as town, but I was too worried about eavesdroppers to explain everything about my role. I can understand him getting concerned.

I think my role could have won for town on day 4 if I played it right. But, I couldn't do shit before day 4 at the earliest.

[fferyllt]

did anyone in sdm townread me?

I still don't know what sakura thought I spied. but given how paranoid I was about eavesdropping it was p ironic.

[fferyllt]

/in to replace!

[fferyllt]

I thought more than 7 cards was highly unlikely.