Open 669 - Nightless Vengeful Mayhem [Game Over]

[MagnaofIllusion]

So this game I think the only player on the list I have played with is havingfitz (aside from not knowing the hidden heads of Ultimate Despair are) so this should be interesting from that standpoint.

UD

– why are you signing posts when you are supposed to be a hidden hydra? I mean if you specifically aren’t outing your heads you should be specifically treated as if you are a single player.

Hawk

– Nothing to say about page 1? Just because it was pre-game doesn’t mean it was content free.

--

VOTE: Doomfeathers

On a page 2 basis my vote was going to go to either wg or Doom.

Doom got my vote for 14. It’s a suspect post coming on the heels of 9. They are trying to sell two different points of view in too short a time period.

9 says “I am on the ball and am paying attention to the rules” specifically be related to votes being symbolic at that point.

14 on the other hand is peddling both “I’m a newb and don’t get the mechanics” and “I’m not Mafia guys”, the second of which Ultimate picked up on. I’ve seen newer players drop the “I don’t understand the set-up so I’m Town” tell before in other Open set-ups like Jungle Republic so I probably would have voted on that basis alone for early game.

But Doom has enough games on site to understand how the Mafia are going to get the kills they need – mislynches. Basis Mafia101. So the dueling subtext shown of his posts strike me as someone uncomfortable with the early game and looking for footing to get comfortable. The "This is OMGUS" joke is another element I think shows him working to get footing.

Wg would have gotten my vote for 21 but Doom was a stronger vote for this early.

--

I've played nightless before, scum wins only if the town becomes apathetic. Don't spam but don't disappear or lurk either.

Actually Scum wins when they are able to earn Town reads in Nightless games since there is no pressure (or in this case significantly lower pressure due to the 2 Daykills) to have to justify why they are so Town read and still alive. With posts like this which on the surface look Pro-Town but mainly empty of actual helpful content.

--

[MagnaofIllusion]

Dislike wgeurt’s 39.

{wgeurts}
{UD}
{Magna}
{Hawk}
{Doom}

Explain exactly your scale for this read-list.

--

No need to delve that deeply into a person's statement so early.

I'm not saying what Magna has done is scummy I just don't agree with that playstyle. Trying hard to come up and formulate good reads from little content is good. Trying so hard when there's literally one page is a good receipe for tunneling or being less open to other ideas.

So you do not believe players can be identified as scum from early statements?

--

The reason I'm confused is that, without a nightkill, a game ending with one scum and one townie left alive would never end because lynching is the only means of death at that point (assuming scum have used both their kills). How is this situation resolved?

Did you read your role PM? Also did you read the provided link in the Open Queue describing the game? I know you referenced it specifically by number so you had to have seen it listed.

Why are you guys so interested in scum's best play? To me, this looks like a great way to appear townie by refuge in audacity. Also, wgeurts seems to be hinting that we should form a bloc, which makes me suspicious.

Why do you think it isn’t in Town’s best interest to always be considering what scum’s best move is in an Open game like this?

Why does wgeurts mentioning a Townblock make you suspicious?

[MagnaofIllusion]

To Doomfeathers, I was making a joke; I knew I couldn't vote, so I did that.

And I was answering your question.

Vote: Doomfeathers

For being confusing.

VOTE: Friend Computer

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well, to be honest, we are kinda still in RVS...

To loosely quote Homer Simpson ...

"Friend Computer RVS is make believe like elves, gremlins and eskimos"

Every post is a part of the game. Just because it is early it doesn't mean you are exempt from being assessed in what you post. In your case it was specifically a poorly justified hop onto the solidly leading wagon on Doom.

Thus you get my vote for it.

Problem?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Magna.

Nope. At least not good reads. Good pressure can be formed, and it can start a wagon easily. How the person reacts and the posts after are more important than the first 2-4 posts a person makes. Yes hindsight being 20/20 after flips early posts can be indicative of scum but D1 no I don't think you can identify scum from their early posts unless they are almost out right saying they're scum.

Now I have to decide whether you really believe this or not. If I fall on the side of Not you are probably scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Anyway, since I think it's ""officially"" day 1 i'll reconfirm vote on VOTE: doomfeathers

Why no reasoning behind this revote?

--

Magma how much experience to you have with mafia?

I’d wager aside from having and wgeurts (and discounting the hidden hydra since I have no idea who makes up the head) at least as much as all the rest of the playerlist put together. Definitely for MS. I have significant offsite and F2F experience as well.

Why do you ask?

--

Magna, care to explain what you dislike about my post?

39 at a gut level strikes me as counter to your previous statements regarding Doom. In 32 you specifically acknowledge that he might be making some comments that I pressed him on due to relative inexperience. Which I do agree with as a possibility.

Yet in 39 some of the points you seem to be using as a justification for voting him (I’m looking at A, B and C specifically) you are hitting right on things that are I think are reasonable to possibily come from Newb Town as well. So on some level I’m troubled by the fact that only when he’s voted you does you seem to really consider the Newb Scum possibilities. Also the line “Please reconsider and/or explain yourself” hits my gut as a nice way of saying “Back off or prepared to battle with my much more experienced self”.

My reads list goes from most town on top to most scum at the bottom. As off now all reads are weak, and will likely change.

That’s not my issue with the lists. My huge issue is the complete lack of labelling. Let’s examine the two lists –

{wgeurts}
{UD}
{Magna}
{Hawk}
{Doom}

{wgeurts}
{magna, UD}
{Hawk}
{Doom, FC}

Ostensiblly the first I would guess is an ordering of Town, Weak Town, Null, Weak Scum, Scum. But I certainly can’t be sure.

Then your second list shrinks down to four brackets. So did Null just disappear? Or was my initial ordering not what I drew.

Honestly these look like Ranger lists which I hate with a passion. Which is why I am trying to nail down your rating systems specifically now. I’ve encountered too many times where scum tries to suggest a Ranger list that doesn’t have an explained and labelled scale is being misread when movement on the list or brackets disappear and they can’t justify the change.

[MagnaofIllusion]

As for my lists, I indeed nicked them from ranger. Difference is I'm a strong supporter of town being as transparent as they can be without harming the town. If you ever want extra clarification on a read of mine: ask and if I haven't explained already (in which I'll show where) I'll do so. I can also add "light town" etc. next to the tiers if you wish, that's not too much of a hassle. I mostly started using them as a way to gather my reads (and they're easy to type out).

Actually as you suggested putting the list like this -

Town - MojoJojo, BoosterGold
Weak Town - Cisco Ramone
Null - Jane Doe
Weak Scum - Raymond Reddington
Scum - Detective Bell

Would do wonders for me never bothering you again about clarification on your lists.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna ill get to your question sometime D1 i promise. but i have another question if you don't mind

Actually looking at the question I do mind given it is hypothetical fluff. Why do you need to "sometime Day 1" to answer?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok back from my weekend V/LA …

In my read through I’ve narrowed my top suspects to Friend Computer, Sesq and Revan.

Friend Computer

has looked like a solid scum candidate since his vote for Doom that he responded to my vote for him with “Well, its RVS” which completely sidesteps that it was a bad justified hop onto the solidly leading wagon. 133 I think comes from a scum perspective – he’s showing cognizance of the game state and knowing that I’m generally not scum read and thus he knows FOSing me with nothing but OMGUS behind it is a poor move for his survival. I also think the following shows he isn’t actually forming reads but reacting to the game-state as scum –

Currently nulltownreading Sesq and Magna. Can't really get any other reads this early.

Current reads:

Town Lean: Sesq, Hawk (playing aggressively and trying to get information out of me, I feel they are scumhunting)
Null Scum: Doom (for that little slip-up he made in the beginning), the lurkers (sort of meta)

Null read everyone else.

These posts were made less than 20 posts apart. Less than a page’s worth of posting. And I didn’t post a single time in that span. Yet his nulltown read on my disappears completely. I feel if he was really sorting people he’d have some reason to have given that nulltown read in the first place and would not have just dropped it.

Finally the vote at 180 is terrible as he in the same post he makes a vote he knows isn’t valid he calls Superhans null-scum. Absolutely no Town reason to make that vote. However there is scum motivation to appear like scum-hunting while not wanting to antagonize the person you effectively FOS.

Sesq

hit my radar solidly at 130. Others have mentioned and I agree the “why am I getting wagonned for what others have done” sentiment feels like scum expressing “caught for the wrong reasons” frustration. The sudden “here is my full reads list” also feels scum who didn’t realize skating by in the early game was not going to work for and 180ed into a “Super Town Mode”. Then let’s talk about the following posts –

Also, the one post that people seem to think is scummy (the one where I re-voted on Doom) was because he had those "lol im beginner" post, and thinking i was trying to wagon despite it being within the first 3 votes out of 7 required for lynch. Also, I was re-voting from what was technically pre-game, which I was unaware of.

Let’s look at the original vote in question –

VOTE: doomfeathers For tossing shade on me with no evidence.

And a quick follow-up post –

This is clearly OMGUS.

VOTE: Sesq

That was the most reasoning you'll ever see out of RVS.

I don’t see “He was LAMIST posting” in this original vote and the followup basically says “No reasoning to be had”. Even his revote didn’t say “Doom was LAMIST posting”. That logic only appeared after Sesq got pressure for the revote and piggybacked off other people’s logic (my own).

My post 15 was RVS (and not technically part of the game yet). My second vote on him was based on his LAMIST stuff.

No it wasn’t. 57 and 64 both say it was “same reasoning as earlier vote” which quoted above was “tossing shade”. Nothing about LAMIST at all. Looks very much like retroactive attempt to justify the bad hop on Doom.

Revan

shows all the signs of active lurking scum. He hasn’t posted anything think shows any intent to scum hunt. He asked me two questions (one on experience, one a pointless hypothetical) that cannot be used to parse alignment at all. And posts like 126 are just empty of anything that would from a Town perspective help him parse the game. 226 is also scummy for the same reasons that Friend Computer’s Mod vote is scummy – he’s calling someone out as potential scum but isn’t voting there when by page 10 there is plenty of content to vote on. I fully disagree with anyone who says “Revan doesn’t care –that’s Town”. It’s not. It’s playstyle which is NAI at all.

So that’s where I am currently. A secondary read that I’m contemplating scum on is Mozamis. There are far too many “Oh, that’s Town” reads that don’t make logical sense to me coming from his slot. One of the easiest things a scum team member can do is give out accurate Town reads on a flimsy basis … they know who Town is. But I see some interactions with my stronger scum suspects that don’t say Partner interactions that he’s on the back-burner until some flips and further posting further clarify his alignment.

having is a complete blank slate with his posting being sparse. I expect this to change regardless of his alignment as it doesn’t benefit Town for him to post as he is and as scum leaves himself open to being lynched for lurking if it continues.

Regarding the Daykill – while I’m not going to spend inordinate amounts of time in this post discussing it I think the fact that it was used so early does indicate that scum in general (and perhaps the Daykiller in specific) was under pressure. While Hawk didn’t look inherently scummy he certainly didn’t look unlynchable lock Town that early. So the odds that it was some combination of Sesq / Friend Computer as scum is pretty strong in my mind.

--

It's so we can be told apart. For instance if I believe that so-and-so is scum and Mukuro believes someone else is scum, you can go and say "Junko, what makes you disagree with your hydra head?" Especially because we might not always agree on reads!

Do you have a Hydra PT? If not PM Untrod Tripod and tell him that MoI said to have you ask for a hydra PT for both your hidden heads to keep any potential hydra dissonance out of the game thread. And then discuss your issues in that PT and resolve your reads.

Hydra dissonance is hugely Anti-Town.

Also @Junko – why were you disagreeing directly with Sesq’s reasoning for scum reading Mozamis and still voting Mozamis as “scum on the Sesq wagon”?

--

In any case, Lucca wasn't the killer unless kronos purposely waited to reveal the kill, since kronos posted a vote count since Lucca was last online.

You do know it is general site procedure for Mods with hidden daykills to allow scum to “queue up” the kill to a later time based on any number of criteria, correct?

--

I'm a bit concerned that scum didn't choose to shoot a more veteran player like MOI or WG, but as long as the "screwup" explanation continues to be plausible, i think that's an issue for a later time
-M

My question to you M is the following – given you’ve gone out of your way to hide your heads why don’t you perceive that you would be a target on what is a weak Burden of Proficiency basis? Also why don’t you include Having or Moz in your list given that they are clearly vets as well?

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Friend Computer

Sesq I'd also vote in a heartbeat if he had a viable wagon which I don't think is the current game state.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I have no idea why doom would know this. His whole approach there seems consistent with the idea that the timing is important information; do you have reason to think he's faking it?

Um no ... the point of that was to enlighten him that his approach to the Daykill based on who was online is flawed. At this stage given the large amount of newb-posting by Doom on other topics I don't think it is him faking (and I don't think it is alignment indicative either).

[MagnaofIllusion]

"Caught for the wrong reasons"? What does that even mean? The reason I posted my reads then is because up until that point I wasn't actually being serious about the game at all. What prompted this was a message by wgeurts telling me to read the thread.

The original vote was RVS and wasn't intended as a serious vote. The vote afterward - actually fuck it, I've explained this like 8 times, read the fucking thread. I don't want my ISO to be me explaining stupid RVS bullshit to every other person in the game.

The one thing you bring up that I didn't realize was 64. I definitely, distinctly remember voting doomfeathers for his LAMIST bs. Maybe I wasn't all in control then, idk.

I think "caught for the wrong reasons" is pretty self explanatory - it is the feeling scum get when they get attention in the way of pressure that they don't feel makes sense. In your case it seems to be getting flack for something you seem to think multiple other players are guilty of as well.

The rest of this is terrible hand-waving. I have read the thread. Your desire to have the issue just go away doesn't really concern me. Your "recollection" doesn't line up with anything posted in thread. And now you are trying to peddle "I was sure I did it for that reason" and "Oh, I wasn't being serious" as explanations. Not convincing at all.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Scum do have daychat in this game, so I don't think my kind of play would have went through with that, no?

Ummm ... since when does scum having daychat mean that scum are prevented from making bad in thread posts again? Daychat isn't some magical salve that sooths all problems for the scum team. In fact the usefulness of it is directly proportional to the ability of the scum team and their willingness to use it.

[MagnaofIllusion]

p.s would rather a sesq lycnh as i actually think he is scum. As opposed to FC who i have no clear read on, but people who i think are town seem convinced of his scumminess.

I posted a signficant amount of verbiage explaining my FC scum read. Did you just not read it? If you did read it do you disagree (and if so please point out what you feel I am misreading)?

Should I be concerned that your idea action seems to align at least as much with voting out someone with a scum read on you as opposed to someone not scum reading you (FC)?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Having

- if you are going to do that sort of catchup with post numbers please use [ post ] Number you want to link here [/ post] (without the spaces) to make it easy to read along and judge your analysis.

[MagnaofIllusion]

After reflection of having read Superhans posts on this page and a quick re-ISO I'm moving him up to the second tier scum read I have (currently shared by Moz).

At first this page looks to be a good amount of content but at a deeper look there is little actual reads coming from his slot. The only thing close to an actual read is his sortaNullTown on Doomfeathers. Plenty of suggestions of scumminess (Revan for example) but no vote. Fence-sitting on both Friend and Sesq wagons. Looks to be similar play to my analysis of Revan's "FOS player, empty Mod Vote".

But there are some pretty strong relational Sesq ties there. If Superhans were scum and scum with Friend I'd expect he'd have jumped on the bus as he's very late to the pickup site. The way he is playing it he would get dinged pretty hard with a FC scum flip. Especially a Dayvig Friend flip. But he didn't do that. Instead he's leaving himself room to move there while fence-sitting on Sesq. And while doing that fence-sitting his narratives all tend to be "But Sesq could be Town who is ...."

VOTE: Sesq

I'm not Town reading FC but after seeing this and how Super is handling the game-state I'm happy to increase pressure on Sesq.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I do think wheurts and UD are genuinely game solving.

Who doesn't seem to be "genuinely game solving" then?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Be patient, we have time.

I'm working on it.

Nah, we are 13 pages plus a Mafia daykill into the game. The time-frame for you to slide by giving minimal content as to who is scum is well past. This no longer cuts the mustard and is not acceptable.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Friend Computer

Moving back to him as the whole “Sesq is defeated” posting she has been making timed with Friend Computer’s conspicuous absence paints a picture to me of a Scum Goon trying to take the bullet for the Scum Daykiller to make sure they don’t miss out on their second Daykill.

The timeline fits. Sesq and Friend were the players under pressure when the Daykill went off with Friend being under more pressure. Votes more or less immediately piled up on Friend after the reset. Sesq begins her “Woe is me” act at 287. At the time she had ZERO votes (see the Mod vote-count at 276) and Friend had racked up 5 of the 7 needed to lynch.

Furthermore I’m seeing the following –

Well, if anyone at this point it's VOTE: Revan, this man's play is scummy as shit. I might construct something tomorrow, but I realize that even twitching my finger at this point is a scumtell.

New readslist. Top is scum, bottom is town.
-Scum-
Revan
Friend Computer

Sesq was voting Friend right after the vote was reset. She was part of the group that got him to 5 votes. And supposedly is scum reading him. Yet she doesn’t vote him who is the viable counter-wagon to her. Regardless of alignment she should be wanting to lynch the more viable candidate of her scum reads (as Town because she would know she’s Town and a lynch elsewhere is always preferable, as scum to save her own neck). Yet she isn’t doing it despite many opportunities to do so.

The only logical reason why she isn’t doing this is because she is protecting Friend.

And Doom has addressed the following post but I think misses the most important point.

I have 0% hope that I'm not somehow getting lynched today. Sorry to be a waste of time to Town, I guess. Is self-hammering allowed? I'd do it right now if possible.

This doesn’t come from a Town perspective. But the most important reason is something Doom hasn’t hit on – Town who are lynched Day 1 get a Vengekill. Town who feels they are going down at least know they still have a chance to catch scum. Thus rolling over and suggesting a self vote (aside from laying down AtE that the current meta of MS eats up like it is candy) means she would be giving up ability to read scum who are pushing her wagon. She’s not even pretending that her lynch has any scum driving it.

But I’d rather lynch Friend Computer given Sesq’s behavior.

[MagnaofIllusion]

no, you doing scummy shit is scumtells.

you're trying to build up this image of yourself as a suffering martyr who has given up on all hope and is being scumread by everyone for the slightest things because they made some fucked up comments earlier

stop building up that image

Stop and examine why Sesq would be so blatant in doing it then ...

--

I'm already voting Regan...

When I posted that I had referenced the Mod’s last Vote-Count and see you not listed as voting. The most recent vote count refutes that point. Consider it an error on my part.

Scum reading me is fine, but to make ridiculous leaps in logic to try and tie me with FC and Sesq is really shoddy play.

If it was obviously ridiculous you’d have pointed out what specifically was ridiculous. Instead you just handwave it. And point of fact in that post I was seeing relational tells to Sesq not FC (in fact I had assessed your behavior as not likely with Friend as scum given how bad you would look). Thus the sentence “some pretty strong relational ties to

Sesq

”.

Was that misrepresentation accidental on your part? And why, if scum reading you is OK, do you immediately try to say me doing so is “shoddy play”?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Sweet glory, you're right. Mozamis' vote came after that post. I'll double-check the timing later, but I think I'm fine with lynching Friend Computer today and Sesq tomorrow.

Double check it for yourself but Moz's Sesq vote did come afterwards.

Feel free to drop a Friend Computer vote. Especially after his prod dodge post this page.

EVERYONE

- If you didn't read the rules closely make sure to not Vote

MUST

go on a separate line per the rules list to count. Most of the confusion on voting at this stage is 100% driven by votes being tucked inside lines and thus not being counted.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Sorry, I have a tight schedule...

Well the impeding rope is going to be tight for you also …

--

Ah sorry, I made a mistake and I take back calling what you said shoddy, I didn't read what you had written properly.

Please explain what your original reading of my post was.

--

Or maybe I just think Revan looks scummier? FC's wagon isn't that big and I was originally triying to redirect votes from my wagon to his. Don't really see this.

FC’s wagon has been established more or less all day and has always been bigger (or equivalent) to Revan’s (even when you have voted Revan and moved off FC).

Why, if FC is a scum read for you and you yourself say you were “trying to direct votes from your own wagon to FC’s”, did you suddenly stop?

And why not vote FC? There are multiple scum in the game. FC looks overwhelmingly more likely to be the Scum Daykiller than Revan based on game state. Yet you insist on trying to fuel a wagon on Revan.

And color me shocked that you (regardless of alignment) don’t see a theory as valid when said theory implicates you as scum … [/off sarcasm]

As for that early stuff, I've already explained it a million times. I'll answer when someone asks something new.

Just a reminder to everyone

– remember that said explanations haven’t held up to scrutiny and at last posting Sesq had retreated to “I was sure I did it for that reason despite nothing in thread indicating that as a possibility … sue me”.

Here's a game I was scum in.

Main thread: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=69351

Maifa thread: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=90&t=69349

Did I miss someone specifically asking your for this? If I didn’t what is the point of posting it? If I did please reference it.

--

seems to be some confusion over my votes.
its very clear - i ahve only voted Sesq this game.
Once before the DK, and once after.
So I dont know why people are confused, but there it is.
And for once i may actually have caught scum!

Who else is scum Moz? Your sole focus on Sesq isn’t helping me (and I suspect others) read you.

--

Your attempt to skirt the issue has been denied. I don't care how big picture you are being, my other head already showed you why the reasons you are using to read wgeurts as town are not real reasons. You keep asserting that it's "so fucking town" and "scum wouldn't do that" but scum do it all the time if they're even remotely competent.

And what concerns me is that you're not bothering to re-evaluate. A town member who's been told that their town read needs to be reevaluated will evaluate that townread because town members are afraid of derpclearing scum. The confidence in your post stems from certain knowledge about wgeurt's alignment.

- Junko

You saying “Please explain your Town read on wgeuts” and saying Moz’s reasoning is bad isn’t really very compelling Day 1 as a reason for him to totally re-assess.

Do you not Town read Wguets?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Did you know that people can... gasp- change their minds?

I know. It shocked me too.

What did you change your mind about? FC being scum? That doesn't add up considering you listed him as the other scum suspect with Revan in your last 'read list'.

Every post you make like this where you try to handwave away things as opposed to actually providing an answer brings me more confidence about you and FC as partners.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Friend Computer

Thank you Doom.

That should put Friend Computer at 4 votes (Myself, Doom, Wguets and having. Two more needed to lynch.

@UD, Moz, Lucca

- Currently I don't think any of you are likely partners with my reads of FC / Sesq. If you have any questions about why FC is scum (and with a not-insignificant chance of being the Daykiller) please ask. Otherwise even if you are reading someone else as scum please consider moving your vote to FC and re-making your case for your primary read with FC's flip tomorrow.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magna, wgeurts, and anyone else, this looks like a scumslip to me. Does it to you?

I think it is a possibility. If both Friend Computer and Sesq were to be lynched and flip scum I would be doing a strong review of the slot.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I like the train of thought in Sesq's posts and

I think it would be hugely beneficial to keep her alive even if she is scum

(if you get what i mean).

The bolded is not a Town thought process in the least.

[MagnaofIllusion]

if Doom thinks Sesq and FC are scum, lynching FC would be a much much better option that lynching Sesq based on the type of content that Sesq produces.

That is clearly not what Doom is saying.

Doom clearly is saying "Lynch FC today" (his recent posting and vote support this), then lynch Sesq the next day.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Good point. It's not necessarily a scumslip. I still think it's suspicious, though. But let's lynch Sesq first, especially if Friend Computer flips scum.

lynch Sesq first...

Lynching Sesq first if FC flips scum inherently means FC has already been lynched.

Pretty straightforward logic. Especially in light of this whole back and forth starting with Doom thinking you were scum with FC and Sesq. His response to you is "Yeah, you being scum with them isn't certain. Let's lynch Sesq first after FC."

Context reading is key. Trying to decide if you are purposefully misreading in another (fruitless) attempt to derail the FC lynch.

[MagnaofIllusion]

come on, lets lynch sesq. for once i am confident about a scum read. fc tomorrow.
also, FC has a whiff of "the - could - be -scum-but could-just be-lurker", as in, not as definite.

Not unless you can give me a compelling reason why everything I've said on timing of the Daykill and my case for Sesq trying to derail the FC lynch indicates FC as the likely Daykill Mafia is wrong.

[MagnaofIllusion]

'another', when was the first time?

The first time was Sesq going into "Woe is me I am getting lynched today" mode with zero to 1 votes when FC had 4 or 5 ...

Don't pretend that hasn't been made abundantly clear.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Kill wasn't panic reaction and was designed to incriminate FC? Maybe you're mafia if this is the case? I think your explanation is more likely, but i'll be thinking about this is FC flips town.

Well let's see ...

If FC is Town being incriminated by that kill and being mislynched FC-Town gets a Vengekill to take out scum pushing his lynch. So just bringing up the possibility of it being a veteran frame game job means it is sub-optimal play for said veterans. Not to mention that Friend was already under fire for his play so the concept of someone killing Hawk to "frame" him is pretty obtuse given there really was no need for it. High risk low to non-existent reward IMO.

But at least it is a theory being presented from you.

Besides Revan who is scum Hans? Despite you saying "FC is a better lynch than Sesq" you've steadfastly not commited to FC as actual scum. I'd like enough scum reads from you to fill out the scum-team even if those reads are not team-reads.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Slight scum read on Lucca as a response to his response to Hawks death, being 'wtf' and 'random' which seems like a dismissal of an attempt to consider motivation behind the kill.

Why are you applying a double standard to lucca & I? I'm also not considering motivation behind the kill.

Considering you are Super's only listed scum read I'm not sure you can say that there is a double standard in play even if he didn't directly mention you ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Magna, what do you think of Superhans? I think that Friend is definitely a option, but I'm more interested on Super or Sesq?

Catch-up to the present and if you don't think these questions are fully answered I'll elaborate.

[MagnaofIllusion]

My quick readslist. Feel free to ask:

TOWN
--- Wgeurts
--- Magna
--- Revan
--- Mozamis
--- Fitz
--- Doom
--- Friend
--- UD
--- Sesq
--- Superhans
SCUM

When you have the time can you make an organized case for UD as scum please?

I can't say that I've twigged to it and I think seeing someone lay out in a single place why they think that would be good for me to read and review.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Oh, I know what you are trying to say. I think it's possible that Sesq and FC are scum buddies and Sesq was actively trying to get lynched to take the pressure off of FC.

I don't know, though, if they would do it. I mean, even if their possible plan works and Sesq was lynched, and revealed as scum. Don't you think FC would just get lynched the next day? I don't think scum would do this. Maybe Sesq and FC would, but I don't know.

The reason why that would happen is to preserve the Mafia Daykiller til Day 2 to maximize the scum kills. To explain in more detail -

This game like most non-standard set-ups runs on lynches. Best case scenario scum have two kills and if they manage a mislynch Day 1 potentially another Townie dead via a mis-aimed Vengekill.

12 to start. Scum win at 3-3. So scum need 6 Town deaths to achieve a perfect win. Best case would be 2 daykills, a Day 1 mislynch and mis-Venge leaving scum to need two more mislynches (Day 3 at the earliest).

Now worst case beginning of game scenario is a Day 1 lynch on the Scum Dayvig. Assuming they used the Day 1 shot that would leave a 2-8 scenario going into Day 2. Scum would need to survive 6 straight lynches to win in a 2-2 victory.

So even at the cost of throwing a Goon to the wolves Day 1 to keep the Dayvig alive to Day 2 scum is in a (slightly) better spot by removing one of the needed lynches they need to dodge and removing the person they perceive as the most unlynchable Townie. It's not a great scenario for scum if they misplay Day 1 too much but it is better than having the Dayvig lynched Day 1.

I can't really see any motive for Sesq to go the "Woe is me, I'll self-vote if I get to L-1" route as Town. As earlier stated Town Sesq would be making it harder for herself to pick out scum pushing her mislych by self-voting. And the only motive I can see for Sesq going that route with literally one vote is to preserve a Daykiller Partner til Day 2. And Friend is the only player that fits that profile.

I mean it is not out of the question for it to be a Reverse Psychology gambit with Sesq Daykiller and FC Goon but the better route to have taken there is for Sesq to continue to bus the hell out of FC for Town credit. And she did exactly the opposite. Even with new players I don't like to assume bad play as new does not mean bad.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Lucca

– Thank you for 469. I do a re-read based on what you have said there.

--

This is because I forgot about the vote reset and assumed I had 5 (4 from pre-dk and the one after).

This doesn’t explain why you claimed you would self-vote if you were Town.

No, it's actually more of a town tell. If scum has a large wagon, other scum will want to stop them. This hasn't happened at all.

If by some circumstance you aren’t Mafia I suggest you go to the Wiki and look up “bussing” because this is all sorts of incorrect.

Usually I don't like to be on L-1 wagons unless I'm dead sure they're scum (such as with Revan).

I'm not entirely sure on FC. He's basically done a few joke posts and has been entirely absent. Neglect yes, but not necessarily scum. Usually the opposite, in my experience.

I don't want to risk lynching someone who may be town.

This is also “Not Town” posting.

Allow me to direct you to the bolded and then compare with previous comments she has made –

Friend Computer - Has done much less than I and yet has no votes. This is idiocy.

So the clear inference is that FC not having votes for doing “less” than Sesq is idiocy which means he should have votes (ie that behavior is suspicious). Directly conflicts with the above where Sesq says “My experience is that those that neglect the thread are more likely Town”.

NULLSCUM:
lucca261 (it's all gut, idk)
Friend Computer

SCUM:
Hawk
Mozamis

I should point out that FC is kind of "too little to post", but I think it's enough for placement.

Again – supposedly what FC has posted is “enough to Null-scum read FC”. Yet now the narrative on FC has changed 180 degrees.

I’d also like to point out that Sesq’s reasoning for voteing FC? See 188.

All of these posts directly conflict with the story that Sesq is trying to sell on FC. When you see Cognitive Dissonance on this scale it is usually scum.

[MagnaofIllusion]

And since FC is trying to lurk out the pressure I thought I’d refresh with my case on him (aside from the Daykill which has been handled pretty well in thread recently) –

To Doomfeathers, I was making a joke; I knew I couldn't vote, so I did that.

And I was answering your question.

Vote: Doomfeathers

For being confusing.

Well, to be honest, we are kinda still in RVS...

First indication of scum alignment. In context – Day 1 had just started. Already Doom had amassed 3 votes on the same page – myself, wgeurts, and Hawk. In those votes there was plenty of reasoning (page 2 reasoning which says “not strong” but enough) to be had. Then in swoops FC with the fourth vote “for being confusing”. Which is pretty poor but when I voted him for the clear bandwagon his response is “We are in RVS”. Which is not a response consistent with someone who simply got an single empty vote (46) and thinks we are in RVS. His response is an explanation … if he really thinks we are in RVS why isn’t there some consideration that my vote could be RVS? Too immediately defensive of a single vote.

Wagons aren't always a bad thing, as Hawk said.

I would FOS Magna, but his scumhunting makes me inclined to believe he is town.

As before this shows that FC is again worried about perceptions. His instinct is to strike back at the person calling him scum but is worried about being called out for OMGUS. So he instead throws down a self-contradictory post so he isn’t ignoring my posts.

I’ve already pointed out that his reads lists from 138 and 153 don’t make sense as actual reads lists given I did not post at all in that period but I went from NullTown to Null.

Hm. Nullscumreading Superhans.

Only null, as it is a bit usual in mafia for deaths to occur.

Vote: Karnos

I’ve already pointed out why this is a scum-motivated post.

And lastly we have his Prod Dodge from 375.

So look at his ISO in full. It isn’t long. Ask yourself – is there any indication in those posts that FC was actually trying to solve the game and sort out the Mafia from the Town? I don’t see any at all. No interactions and questions. Just posts that purport to provide content but have no semblance of thought process or reasoning supporting them. Active lurking to a tee.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Look. I'll do what you want me to do.

--

Ok, being serious at this stage somehow if you are Town you should be re-reading the game and be ready to make your best effort at a Vengekill.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be V/LA from noon today until Monday for my usual weekend duties.

So the dual flips of FC and Sesq as Town means I am going to completely reset my reads. Also re-reading their ISO for suspicions knowing they are Town.

Superhans actually is not on my radar at this point given his reaction to feeling that he was being linked to FC and Sesq. Both are Town. Scum isn’t going to care about being linked to them through play when they are likely to be lynched before you.

Now that we have a flip of Town on FC 491 has me somewhat suspicious. The string of posts by UD before that point look like someone who is actively reading the game. I had previously pointed out that FC was at L-2 and I don’t think it is a reasonable explanation that they just didn’t see Sesq’s vote at 485 given that vote was posted an hour and a half before their first post.

I also want to look back to see who was the first person to float the “It was a frame-job” explanation for Hawk’s daykill. That was not the Occam’s Razor explanation for the kill and might be a case of informed scum leaking info to be viewed as “perceptive”.

And fitz’s post right before this puts him squarely on my radar for “Man, it sucks that FC and Sesq were Town” posting which looks like forced Town attempt posting to me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok back from V/LA …

First thing I have done in my re-read was to look over Hawk’s ISO. Because now that we know both FC and Sesq were Town I wanted to see where his suspicions lay. Based on his ISO I’d say the strongest candidates just are Moz (149) and Doom (multiple votes during the Day). Nothing I’d base a case on but a good reminder.

--

My Superhans vote was because I'm not townreading him.

Looking at his ISO,
Superhans look scummier than Fitz. I mean, Fitz could just be scum trying harder than Superhans.
But superhans ISO is eally weak. Not many reads and a lot of fluffy, theory bollocks.

Both of you need to explain why Hans as scum would go out of his way to be bothered about his (incorrect) perception that I was trying to tie him to FC and Sesq given both were Town.

--

I actually thought someone might use that comment as a negative (I can't recall the name of the tell) but I'm surprised it's you. If you're town your radar needs calibrated.

It is a variant on the “Congratulate the Doc” tell – your reaction was effectively “Man that was bad for Town” which is understood. It is superfluous (obviously both players being Town is bad for Town) that only serves to show how LAMIST your feelings are.

Your followup at 541 furthers my suspicion. You attempted to buddy up to me pretty hard Day 1 (yes, I noticed) but the second I look askance at you there is an undercurrent of “Hmmm, MoI could be scum” in your posting.

--

Alright doom is town, and you'll have to lynch me before I tolerate someone going after him.

Please elaborate on why you feel Doom is “so Town” based on those posts / interactions.

--

This actually looks quite town to me. It's bold, it's out here, it's not blending in.

Please elaborate what about an “Here’s an L-1, oops hammer” vote by UD looks quite Town.

superhans/revan team makes sense for panic dk day 1?

No, not at all. Neither were under significant pressure that would justify blowing a limited resource Daykill that early.

[MagnaofIllusion]

He would try to tie you down to try and get you mislynched.

Or to try to appear town, that's what makes the most sense.

Given that he immediately revoked his accusation after I called him out the first explanation doesn't hold water.

As to "appearing Town" - why do you think that looks like a Town move?

[MagnaofIllusion]

I breadcrumbed.

I have to ask – what in the heck were you trying to breadcrumb there? I don’t see anything in what you quoted that looks like a breadcrumb.

--

Why doesn't it hold water? He could've been trying for a mislynch, but then realized it was going to be really hard so then he went back on it.

That sort of behavior is pretty suboptimal given the speed at which Hans back-pedaled. Did you have the impression at that point in the game I’d be any sort of easy mislynch? If you didn’t it is a fair assumption that Hans didn’t either and thus I don’t see that behavior as scum-oriented.

--

i dont really know. Maybe he just wanted to posat something. Fabricate some bollocks, who knows? cause a bit of WIFOM? Dunno.

Well generally if you can’t figure out a reasonable reason for scum to do something then it generally isn’t a scum-tell. None of those really benefit him as scum at all.

Maybe I’m wrong but that is where my head is at.

I dont think much elaboration is needed. In my experience, scum try and avoid the L-1 and the hammer.
Sure, maybe he's ballsy scum. To me, it just seemed town.

Please share your experience with me. My curiosity is piqued.

yeah i think i wrote that post thinking "scum dont want to look bad for the Hans mislynch".
When i think Hans is scum.

You know what this is called correct?

VOTE: Mozamis

My vote has been idle long enough.

--

Curious...were there any others you noticed potentially benefitting from the Hawk dayvig?

First off why is it curious? Second – why didn’t you look for yourself?

Do you, MOI, put a lot of credence in well-known standard tells?

Where do you see that I’m putting “a lot of credence” in the tell?

And the fact that the tell is well known doesn’t make it something to be immediately dismissed. If it wasn’t something viable it would never have gotten to the well known stage in the first place.

I mean...I love being townread as much as the next person but if you are going to call someone out for thinking you were town (i.e. me)...why not question everyone who does so?

I’ve eliminated the vast part of your response for readability – but to summarize yes I absolutely found your 157 as buddying. You are the only player who I have any significant history with and I know for a fact we have often had conflicting view on the game-state as Town. Enough so that your immediate agreement with many of my posts (that some others have not necessarily agreed with) set me radar on edge.

Others on the other hand have no track record with me and didn’t set my radar off. There is a difference between calling someone Town and agreeing in a way that feels manufactured. You fall into the second category.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@HavingFitz and @MOI
What are your differences in viewpoints on the game-state as town?

Well to be clear - I'm not talking about grand philosophical ideals. I'm talking about having disagreements / suspecting each other when we are have both been Town in the past.

Granted those games are 4 to 5 years old so my recollection is fairly cloudy. I could probably dig up some games if you were interested.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Revan

– Please remind me of your read on Moz.

--

Can you explain more simply y I am scum or take your filthy little vote off of me.

Why is this post written in a manner that addresses Moz as Town? If you think Moz is voting you for bad reasons why is there not a little bit of thought that Moz might be scum?

--

you being a twat?

No, pointing out the obvious – when you are supposedly scum reading someone and yet then are making points that are 100% predicated on them being Town to support your position it means there is a reasonable chance that you aren’t Town actually looking for scum but scum trying to look like they are scum-hunting.

So my vote stays and I hope others join me.

--

it wouldnt hurt if you linked the games, although i dont really have any interest in trying to evaluate meta from a game I wasn't part of. Probably wouldn't be that difficult for u and Fitz to have a read through and see if it impacts your reads on one another.

Actually I looked back over our past games and have to retract my suspicion of Having on that account. My recollection apparently was incorrect as I can’t find any evidence of us going head to head as Town in the past. In fact I found several Town Having Town MoI games where his posting regarding myself is pretty reminiscent of his posting here.

So he’s no longer a suspect for me given my memory of our past was way off.

--

It isn't curious, I was curious. I didn't look myself because I was reading on my phone at the time and didn't feel like that hassle. You said Moz and wgeurts were the "strongest candidates" which made it seem like there were other...less strong candidates. Which was where my curiosity was.

Um the other candidates were FC and Sesq who have both subsequently flipped Town. Which is why you not going back to look at Hawk’s ISO (which is criminally short) was troubling to me.

The "immediate" was a single catch up that referred to two (many?) of your posts. I think your buddy meter has a hair trigger. It feels like you are trying to shade events that have no reason to be shaded. I'm not going to look but I would be surprised if in any of our past games I did not agt some point agree with something you may have said.

I fully admit that that read was based on my faulty historical recollection so yeah I’ve fully withdrawn you suspicion of you on that end.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I hadn't ISO'd him but I had considered his vote targets: Revan, Doom and Sesq. Revan was just RVS afaict and Sesq was sorted out by FC. So Doom was still on my radar. Just not sure how much weight DVA is worth.

You can have reads aside from votes cast - specifically Moz. There shouldn't be tons of weight given to it but it is worth at least looking at.

[MagnaofIllusion]

UD why am I scum?

Going to do some analysis to fit and catch some scummiez.

V/LA until the 29th due to exams

Color me absolutely not thrilled with this turn of events ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

In Revans defense he is VLA in his other ongoing game so I.dont think it's AI.

I don't think going V/LA specifically is alignment indicative but it is a severe pain in the ass regarding his readability.

This is the second day he's said "I'm getting a framework give me time to scum-hunt" and done really nothing with it. It doesn't benefit the chances of a Town win regardless of what his alignment is.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I think Mozamis should answer this question –

@Mozamis if Revan flips.scum who is his partner?

--

Scumlean.

- Junko

Looking at Revan/mozamis

- Junko

1. Why did you call Moz a scum lean Day 1?
2. Why is the same head “looking at Moz” as if it didn’t already have a read from Day 1?

--

And thanks for the ATe

I often seemed to get lynched day 2. Sad

ok maybe it doesnt really fucking matter lol
but maybe post game scum could tell me why they think that is.

I’d like you to explain why you are suddenly swimming in AtE yourself when you earlier intimated that Hans was scum who was using AtE himself.

--

Also Hans.....

Why did you change your avatar mid game? I keep thinking a new player has joined.

It doesn't help that there are other players on this site using the same avatar.

Plus the big doofy head seemed like a good fit (no offense intended).

Why is this relative to determining Hans’ alignment at all?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Hans

- Please remind me of your Moz read as it stands now ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Ultimate Despair

At this stage I am seeing little movement onto Moz (who is still scum) and UD is another scum-read and therefore a better place for my vote since it is a more viable wagon currently. Both are guilty of ignoring direct questions to them that I have posted and their soft back and forth without voting each other could certainly be weak distancing action.

@Everone on the following vote-count

Not Voting (6): havingfitz, Ultimate Despair, , wgeurts, Superhans, doomfeathers

This far into the day why are you not voting?

--

@Moz

– why have your ignored the request from Hans I quoted in 619 on multiple a occasions? Is it because as scum it is too difficult a questions to answer?

--

@UD

– you need to answer this right away …

1. Why did you call Moz a scum lean Day 1?
2. Why is the same head “looking at Moz” as if it didn’t already have a read from Day 1?

And I do not want to see any explanation that “That was my other head”. You are one slot. You get treated as one slot and attempting to foist off hydra dissonance to avoid pointed questions isn’t going to fly.

--

[MagnaofIllusion]

Was thinking Rev, but he was looking better.

How is Rev "looking better"? Please elaborate since I think based on his Day 2 posts don't given anything alignment moving at all IMO.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Moz

Where was this the whole time I've been wanting a wagon on Moz? I mean you had me looking like this ...



VOTE: Moz

[MagnaofIllusion]

For the record I still think Revan is scum, but it's a wastr to keep a vote on a VLA player.

It is only a waste to vote a player you think is scum while they are V/LA if you aren't getting traction on a wagon from other players. V/LA is not some magical shield wiping away the rest of their play.

[MagnaofIllusion]

He can't defend himself though... Moz can. I'm confident that Revans scum, absolutely, but I'd rather lynch him when he's active.

You know this sort of attitude only encourages scum to go V/LA when under pressure, correct?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MOD

– I’ll be V/LA from around noon today until Monday morning for my usual weekend V/LA.[/b]

What is it with people being unable to answer direct questions this game? UD has once again completely dodged my question from 640. At this point I think they stand a greater than likely chance of being Moz’s partner if I am correct on Moz.

@Lucca

– How long is it going to take you to actually vote today?

I expect Wguerts to be back with copius content by the time I return from V/LA. Friday has already passed and his continual lack of contribution to this game today has completely eroded my Town read on him.

--

Are you literally just going to keep asking me questions? You seemed to have turned into "tunnelling town".
I get the approach, pile on the pressure, good for you. But in the end you also have to be able to change your mind. Hopefully you will do that soon.
Rev looks better partly cos he is voting Hans, obviously. And somehow he sounded a bit more honest, not quitre sure why, but he did.

Firstly tunneling only really occurs when someone focuses on a player and ignores everything else. I clearly am not doing that.

Furthermore I certainly am capable of changing my mind on reads when things warrant me doing so. None of your responses look remotely at all like they are coming from a Town perspective. Your explanation on how Revan looks better because he is “voting Hans” is pretty empty given that you give not a single notion towards the possibility of a bus there. Furthermore that you did basically no reassessment after Day 1 (you are sticking by your “early list” for your reads) doesn’t come from a Town perspective to my mind.

[MagnaofIllusion]

In case I suddenly die while on V/LA –

Lynch Moz. If they flip scum then UD is almost assuredly a partner. But my death via Daykill means the Moz slot has to be solved BEFORE LYLO and that would be today's lynch.

Lucca and Superhans are very likely Town in that circumstance so don’t lynch them unless you get to a 3 person LYLO and then really examine their posting the whole game before commiting to a scum read there.

Aside of Moz and UD I’d place approximate weight of other scum with Moz as follows …

Revan > Wgeurts / Doom > Having but there isn’t a ton of difference between the tiers there at this stage.

Now if Moz is somehow Town then all bets on my reads are off and I can't help you there.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Back from V/LA and catching up …

I feel like there is a concerted effort in this game to make sure I get absolutely no Town reads at all. People – WTF?

Also – I specifically made my “Moz has to be lynched if I’m killed while V/LA” post as a test. If I’m as unlikely to get lynched as Hans suggests then if Moz is Town I would have expected scum to have nuked me right after I made that post to try for another easy mislynch. And not shot came so I’m pretty comfortable with my vote.

If Moz is scum the vote exchange at 706 and 711 looks like last ditch distancing to me.

--

of these i wgeurts i guess is the weakest scum read, since he looked very fucking town earlier on. But as someone else mentioned, his total lack of content ment that that his towniness has evaporated.

This reads pretty solidly to me of “MoI said he’s no longer Town so I’m prepping a move into scum for him”.

--

You've forgotten someone...

Who? Moz and UD are my top scum reads. Based on a Moz scum read you and Lucca would be Town reads. That leaves the four who I gave the tiered list on.

--

I got listed in two places

Well you are off the hook of being a non-voting sluggard then. I just grabbed the not-voting list and didn’t think to check for potential errors …

When Hawk was killed, Revan was the only one voting him. Does this make him more or less likely scum and/or shooter?

Really him voting Hawk is irrelevant. We’ve already established who Hawk was suspecting and thus had motive to shoot Hawk. Revan wasn’t in that pool. And scum generally try to vote Town so Revan voting Hawk says little alignment-wise.

Your point on Superhan’s 213 that you make in 676 (at least in regards to that being something odd to say to a scum candidate as Town) is good. Still not overall thinking Hans is scum but

--

@Magna, 663: but I'm voting UD, like, since the start of the day? I want him lynched today. Look at his posts. Also, can you explain to me your superhans townread?

Yeah – mostly I posted that to see if you would actually respond given that others are ducking my questions and I needed a reminder litmus test on my Town read on your slot.

I’ve summarized my reasoning on Hans – I don’t see scumHans making such a big deal over thinking I was linking him to both Sesq and FC (who were both Town) relationally. ScumHans benefits by the relational linkage when either (or in this case both) flip Town and likewise if he flipped before them it would have made it easier to have mislynched them. No Scum motivation to making the deal he did. Am I getting fooled by completely off the wall play? Maybe. But at this stage I don’t see any strong reasons to revise the read.

can we get a UD lynch, @moi/@doom?

I’m a little concerned that you only seem to have a UD scum read. Who else is scum with UD in your mind? There is no Town benefit to refusing to vote another read if the UD wagon doesn’t build (and it hasn’t) given 3 scum remain.

--

I don't even get where you're coming from on point 1. We had a bunch of posts addressing and discussing Moz on day 1; are you asking us to restate our reasoning? Did you miss it? Like, what exactly are you getting at here, because it would be fairly difficult to miss our thoughts on Moz from day 1, and we have under 100 posts, so it would be hard to miss given the ISO feature. If you have questions about our read from day 1 ask them, but it's not my job to rehash previous events for your convenience.

Color me unimpressed with this response. The whole point of the exercise is to highlight what I see as fake-reads from your slot. Your ISO shows some softball questions tossed towards Moz Day 1 that supposedly pointed to a scum read. Yet today you’ve conspicuously avoided voting for the slot up until just now. And I don’t see anything in your Day 2 ISO that says “I revoked that read” (in fact you in this response squash that notion) or significant scum-hunting elsewhere (I discount your back and forth with Lucca as that is mostly driven by disproving his read on you not commenting on his alignment).

Not a discussed vote with my hydra partner ftr, but im sure mukuro will agree given 701 and 702.

What do you think specifically is scummy about those posts?

--

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MOI
U didn't mention Fitz which made me think you'd forgotten about him.

Revan > Wgeurts / Doom >

Having

but there isn’t a ton of difference between the tiers there at this stage.

You sure about that Super?

[MagnaofIllusion]

(expired on 2017-02-04 09:00:01) until deadline.

People really need to be consolidating their votes ASAP.

--

so you dont actually give reason for voting me.

In fact it was P.O.E s omaybe i should have said null.

The entirety of your reasons for who you think is scum is POE really isn’t any reason at all. Why is it scummy for UD to not give reasons and not for you?

And Superhans brought up a point I think need revisited – why shouldn’t we think you are scum given scum haven’t quickhammered you (in line with your earlier reasoning on why Hans was scum for lack of wagon momentum)?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Revan has done nothing I can recall and has coasted this entire game. The thought of losing to a scum team that contains Revan is very repulsive. I think he is a strong contender to be scum.

Here's my issue with Revan (which aligns with yours for different reasons) - he seems like absolute lynchbait. Bad posting and complete lack of content for two game days.

Yet aside from being occasionally scum-read there is no inclination to wagon him.

Town Lynchbait Revan I would have expected to garner some sort of heat by this point as an easy compromise mislynch. Hell I don't think I can recall anyone Town reading him in a long time.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@MOD

– Is Wgeurts getting replaced? If so is deadline going to be paused while a replacement is found?

--

i'd rather lynch Revan today tbh,
like i know im going to get shit for it, cos it looks like im backing off of Moz, and I have been accused of being partners with him (im not btw @Fitz)
but i think that Revans lurking is deliberate, and scummy, think his previous post was a prod dodge. keeping his vote on me (after saying i looked better (?!)

fuck this shit
vote revan

could be useless town.
but really he has done nothing all game. no inclination to find scum whatsoever.

scum revan, ud and fitz/hans

And these are exactly the kind of posts I expected from scum after I made 738. Having gets promoted up to my likely Town pool for 743 as that is exactly the skeptical kind of approach to my post.

On the other hand but Hans and Moz are willing to just move to what might be an deadline compromise lynch. Super now gets slotted in my third scum suspects list. Moz is simply willing to hop between any of her weak POE pool happens to be getting to most current heat.

At this point of Moz doesn’t eat rope today I will be sorely disappointed …

--

Before I start making my mega posts, MOO referred to me as lynchbait. On my home site, I was mislynched a lot and I came here trying to improve that. Does anyone have any tips?

Play the game. Actually put in effort. This whole notion of “I’m doing stuff in my head” is pure crap and pretending otherwise is foolish. Long-deadline forums Mafia is a commitment of time. You haven’t given anything close to an acceptable level of engagement.

This advice applies regardless of alignment, BTW. Your play is hurting your team regardless of what your alignment is.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I am doing stuff in my head. I have reads, and I have opinions on who I think is scum. I just haven't gotten to a computer so I can share that with you guys.

Then you are absolutely failing at playing forums Mafia given it is absolutely a game of written communications. This response only furthers my frustration with you as a player if you are Town. Instead of actually giving content you continue to make these empty posts.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Its simple.
Just Lynch Rev.

The sudden strong push right before Day deadline to keep Moz from swinging is noted.

We only need two more Moz votes ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Is pushing Rev today out the question then?

You can’t be serious in pretending that I didn’t just call out the sudden interest in a Revan lynch by yourself and Moz right after I floated he looked like scum. The whole “Bury my head in the sand to negative comments” tactic isn’t going to bear fruit for you.

I think Moz is scum, correct, but i reaally didn't like where Rev was whilst all this was going on. Moz' wagon quickly built up steam and where was Rev during all of this? literally lurking out pressure.

And this is probably scum partner posting.

1. Moz’s wagon did not “quickly build steam”. In fact for a good portion of the day you had more votes than Moz. It has been a complete uphill fight to even get Moz at L-2 for any extended period.
2. Revan had zero votes today until you and Moz just recent dropped yours back to back. So while Revan may have been lurking out something it certainly wasn’t pressure.

--

I want vote to moz right now, but I won't until I write up my reads.

Get working on that …

[MagnaofIllusion]

I’m tired of playing nice …

Idk, 799 looks town to me...

VOTE: UD

Here is an ultimatum Rev. Either you vote Moz or I am voting you. I have my reasons. You have about 24 hours.

--

You seem to think Rev is lymchbait over obvious in your face scum?

I think it is suspect as hell that the only time momentum appears on Rev is when I convienently mention how he isn’t getting pressure and half the insta-votes came from Moz my top scum suspect.

--

anyone got a clear, coherent case on me that i can respond to?
normally by now people are too pig headed/stupid to change their minds but whatever...
Oh, and by clear coherent case, I dont meen Magna asking me questions like
"why is the sky blue?"
no, why?
no, moz, why?"
But i'll reply to a small, well made out case.

This, by the way, is classic scum posting. Scum love nice summarized cases to argue against. In addition it infers that there is no reason to be voting her (and tries to dismiss my many, many points made against Moz as irrelevant when clearly they are not fluff like “Why is the sky blue”).

Vote this scum!

@p.edit : it seemed a bit like coaching.

And yet another reason Moz is scum. She’s trying to pick out things she thinks she can frame as scummy (“Looks like coaching to me”) as opposed to honestly thinking about the game. As Lucca has pointed out – scum have daytalk …

The mafia may discuss in their private topic during the day.

So coaching is NEVER a valid scum-tell. Moz isn't interested in actually finding scum ... just finding things she thinks she can peddle as scum-tells.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I've PMed Karnos direct as the Wgeurts situation is ridiculous. He hasn't made a game relevant post since January 21st.

[MagnaofIllusion]

And now we wait for a flip ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Quick phone post to say - you both know this is effectively LYLO right?

With that flip I will have to really, really reassess. More on that after lunch and errands.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So since I’m going back over the whole game with a fine tooth comb I’m going to bring up something I saw earlier and let go in my pursuit of Moz …

@Mozamis if Revan flips.scum who is his partner?

I had forgotten about this but his posting post Moz flip brought it back to mind.

MOI + Revan scum team, is this implausible?

Or UD + Revan

The first person who points out what I am seeing in all three of these posts gets a free Internet Cookie.

--

This is making me worry that maybe Lucca's scum.

Why does a Revan read list make you think Lucca is scum?

--

Sorry Doomfeathers but I think you're wrong on at least 1/3 and probably 2/3.

Who do you think he’s correct on? And who else is scum, then?

I know Magna but that post was more of a joke because I independently scumread the slot.

I think I know whose Alt you are … but if I am correct that makes me worry you are scum ...

--

And MOI...you were the driving force in both mislynches iirc. Certainly moz. Not that I or anyone else on those wagons thought the points you were making were disingenuous....but credit has to go to you for holding the steering wheel. You have to be considered...and anyone in this game who's in your fan club are IMO either scum blowing smoke up town!MOI's ass, really creative scum buddies reverseWIFOMdistancing from scum!MOI or really shortsighted town regardless of your alignment.

Well on one hand I have to accept I am involved in both mislynches. On the other hand this is the sort of approach I’d expect scum to peddle. I note you were on both mislynches as well. Do you think everyone should not bear the scrutiny of two consecutive Town lynches? But to springboard some questions –

1. Do you realistically think I’d bother trying to strong-arm Revan onto a mislynch as I did with my post this morning as scum?
2. Why bother to completely fence-sit on the players who are my so-called “fan club”? You basically leave room open to call pretty much anyone in that group scum or Town. And who would you assess is said fan club?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Revan's in all of them?

Technically yes but that isn't what makes it suspect. Sorry, no cookie for you ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

vote MOI at this point

Of course you would ...

Next order of business is to take a look at the Superhans versus Moz wagons.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Well I like cookies so...
he's asking for an opinion on pre-flop associatives without offering any substantiated opinions of his own?

-M

Sorry, no cookie for you either (again, not because what you said isn't necessarily true).

[MagnaofIllusion]

i think MOI + Revan is a likely possibility.

For those cookie hungry players following along - here is another example of what I saw in those three posts.

If no-one gets it by noon tomorrow I'll explain what I am seeing and provide a link showing why I buy into it as a tell.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I’m starting to think Lucca may not be Town. Those posts look good but there is not substance coming out of them. I’m starting to think they are a series of well hidden IIoA posts. The fact that the only discernable scum read I can ever recall for the slot is UD doesn’t help matters.

--

This is objectively wrong by the way. "Oh it's twilight let's wait and sit on our hands to see what the flip is" is utterly useless behavior. His hammer looked suss, and I pushed him on it. It is BETTER to make that kind of push in an environment where it's unknown what the flip would be; see who seems confident that it was still scum, see who might know it's town and potentially out themselves in the discussion. Of course our mod decided to quick post the flip and end that possibility (which is kind of annoying btw), but that's a productive environment for that line of enquiry.

Ps what about the hammer seemed especially genuine to you? And what about my enquiry, other than the fact of its existence, seemed knowing?

My god if you are Town this is terrible, terrible posting. Hans’s hammer is presented exactly as yours was Day 1 – “Oops I thought that was an L-1 vote”. The cognitive dissonance flowing from your slot is bad if you are suggesting that hammer was sketchy (and possibly scum) and yours came from Town.

Furthermore the only player who “outed” that they might know Moz was flipping Town was you. So floating “I was looking for scum” netted yourself as the only viable suspect. Floating that you were obv-Town for doing so is just plain bad.

--

2. Who are you saying is fence sitting? You or me? As for my comments...I agree it doesn't narrow anything down on anyone. It's not a strong point against anyone...I just don't like it. And the fact more than a few have been doing it makes it even less helpful and more annoying. Off the top of my head I would say Doom is president of the club. I think moz and maybe lucca were pumping you up as town. There might have been a few more that went above and beyond "I think MOI is probably town"....which is where I have been most the the game.

Clearly I am saying you are fence-sitting. The time for “we will need to figure this out” is over. Shit or get off the pot, as it were. Today we lynch correctly or lose immediately. So is that line of thought you originally posted worthwhile to discuss or not?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok time for the reveal of what I am seeing in Hans’s posts.

Firstly here is the cookie no-one was able to claim. Sadly, for it looks delectable.



Take a look at all those posts by Hans again. They share one important factor – they are all looking for two man pairings for scum. Then look through his ISO. You do not see him looking for three scum. You seem him associating two players as scum. But we know absolutely for certain there are three Mafia. This is an Open Set-up.

This is effectively what I call “Inadvertant Mafia Mind-set Slippage”. Specifically Hans as scum knows he has two partners and keeps posting about pairings when as Town he should be showing some level of cognizance that there are three people on the team. Is it a smoking gun? Not 100% but when I was reviewing my ISO I found multiple other instances (318, 427) where I had tagged Super’s posting as suspect but dismiss overall given relational reads that didn’t pan out.

The most recent time I can show that highlights this exact process is Sho’s GTA 2 Mafia.

In summary – the set-up was 2 Mafia , 2 different Serial Killers (one Odd and one Even Night) and Town. I was one of the Serial Killers. Day 1 a player made a post that to my eye indicated they had reads of scum as two players only. After all as a Serial Killer (and I didn’t know there was another) I thought it possible there were only two Mafia. Day 1 ends with a Mafia lynch. I Nightkilled my biggest detractor (Ranger) and when under fire unleashed the following on the player I suspected of Mafia –

And I’m personally pretty sure I’ve already pointed out who the last Mafia member is.

VOTE: Dom

481 is a classic scum oops where he forgets that Town doesn’t know his scum team is only two players. And the hop on Code at 902 when the issue was already decided is literally worst last second bussing ever. Maybe on the off chance Dom is the Serial Killer but I’m fairly confident he’s the Mafia boss.

What was post 481?

Scum team is banta and polar/ranger

So in this case Dom forgot that he had information Town didn’t – that the scum team was only two players.

Hans’s play here is a variant of this. Specifically when he’s trying to present scum reads he keeps forgetting to look for three players as scum. He’s always presenting two player teams. Because subconsciously he knows he’s scum and thus is looking to find two other players. It is the kind of slip I’d expect from a less experienced player .

[MagnaofIllusion]

Citations DESPERATELY needed for that nonsense

Do you think just throwing insults helps you? It doesn’t …

The scum motivation for me to draw attention to myself my pushing Hans there before the flip is at most wifom, while the town motivation is obvious. "

Gee that wasn’t hard to find was it? Your implication and inference here is “My behavior is obvious Town because there is at best only WIFOM on why my scum motivation was”. Words have meaning and just because you didn’t string together the exact phrase “I’m obvious Town” doesn’t mean you didn’t make that claim via inference in your posting.

You are also ignoring the POTENTIAL for said questioning to have outed knowledge of a flip. That no one outed any such knowledge is not meaningful, because the mod shut down that possibility by quick-flipping (fwiw, as a mod I have an unofficial policy of keeping twilight open at least 30 minutes even if I see a hammer, because people SHOULD have some amount of time to react, and "is the mod around right now" is kind of a crappy luck element to dump into a game).

So your premise is that you’d as Town call the lynch (which you were on) into question in hopes of eliciting scum to post so as to incriminate themselves. Yet why couldn’t Town do the same? I mean – your whole premise is that you yourself are Town who specifically called the hammer into question. So why couldn’t your “tricksy trap” catch another Town player who had a Town read on Moz instead of scum? The fact that you are ignoring this possibility shows stunning cognitive dissonance.

Again – the fact that the second a hammer was throw you immediately went on the offensive against the hammerer on a wagon yhou were on seems pretty damn suspect.

2) What cognitive dissonance? Ignore for a second that it was my hydra partner who couldn't count (blah blah hydra dissonance as if that means anything in this context), and explain to me why one person derp-hammering AFTER ANOTHER PERSON DERP-HAMMERED AND IT WAS PUBLICLY DISCUSSED (and hans was sufficiently involved in the game that he couldn't have missed that it had been a point of discussion) is not itself worth pushing and questioning.

Cognitive Dissonance can be boiled down to the following – when someone’s actions contradict their own stated beliefs it is a sign they are lying. I don’t recall anyone saying that said hammer wasn’t worth discussing. Yet you are suggesting you are Town who made a mistake (or in this case trying to apply Hydra Dissonance as an excuse) but your stance is that Hans can’t be Town who made the same mistake. The Dissonance is clear – you did exactly what Hans did yet can’t apparently see any reason why it couldn’t be the same supposed Town mistake you made.

The whole paragraph below outlines this –

Hans, if town, ignored the fact that derp-hammering already happened (and the normal town process after it had been discussed would be to be more careful with voting), AND the fact that a mere two posts above his own vote, someone else dumped in a vote (and a sub who had just come in and cast a flagrantly sheeping vote at that), and basically just said "yeah fuck it I'm voting there". That is a questionable town process and should always be questioned (regardless of moz flip by the way). Giving me shit about questioning him for it is ridiculous.

And your “Hey, want to talk about empty twilight posting” follow-up is weak. Specifically you are saying “You were not drawing conclusions before there was more information”. Well, duh. Until the Mod flipped Moz there was no information to be had. Again – the only person in a position to draw conclusions about the lynch itself (and Hans’s hammer) were the Mafia who know Moz was flipping Town. Your “EMPTY TWILIGHT POSTING GRAAAAA” stance only serves to try to turn the focus away from that fact and keep yourself from being on the defensive.

[MagnaofIllusion]

at MOI, can you give an example from your ISO when you mention 3 mafia potential pairings over 2 mafia potential pairings.

Did you not think I could do this?

In case I suddenly die while on V/LA –

Lynch Moz. If they flip scum then UD is almost assuredly a partner. But my death via Daykill means the Moz slot has to be solved BEFORE LYLO and that would be today's lynch.

Lucca and Superhans are very likely Town in that circumstance so don’t lynch them unless you get to a 3 person LYLO and then really examine their posting the whole game before commiting to a scum read there.

Aside of Moz and UD I’d place approximate weight of other scum with Moz as follows …

Revan > Wgeurts / Doom > Having but there isn’t a ton of difference between the tiers there at this stage.

Now if Moz is somehow Town then all bets on my reads are off and I can't help you there.

I mean it was trivially easy to find this. Of course given Moz was Town the whole relational alignment assessments are out the window but here clearly I am looking for three scum players.

And you are (purposefully, I guess) missing the point – it is not that you aren’t putting together three way pairings. It is that the entirety of your posting to this point (now that I’ve explained what I was seeing all bets are off since you know) was about looking for two scum. Never saying “I think all three scum is in X, Y,Z, and Q”. Always saying “Player X plus Player Y”.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – Will be V/LA from 4:30pm EST today until Monday morning for my usual weekend V/LA

@MoI: Are you ready to state your reasons for actually threatening Revan yet?

I wanted to see if he would actually move back to Moz since I was pretty certain Moz was getting lynched. His movement (or lack thereof) might have been very useful in in helping to determine whether he was likely scum. Unfortunately both Nhadia and Super made that a moot point.

--

This is unproductive and worthless thinking. Superhans being a new player doesn't make him incapable of detecting experienced scum nor does it make his pushes less valuable unless they're legitimately bad.
I will not be pushing MOI today but I'm not a fan of you dismissing Superhans outright for suggesting it.

Other than absolutely trying to make sure Super doesn’t get votes I eagerly await your input given that you basically fence-sit both myself and Having here.

Maybe Superhans is scum but he's not today's lynch for reasons that I will get into.

Nope. You cannot have information that means one scum lynch is better than others. That’s the nature of this open set-up.

--

Your post was nonsense, I acknowledged it as such. I also justified why I saw it that way. Do you think just handwaving it away as "just throwing insults" helps you? It doesn't...

Yawn … I mean just repeating insults over and over doesn’t make them true. Appeal to Repitition is a logical fallacy scum use for a reason but it is easy to identify.

Actually I was pointing out that scum-reading me for it was dumb. "The town motivation is obvious" means that there very obviously was potentially town motivation. Maybe I did do it for the WIFOM as scum. Maybe there was some other benefit that hasn't been discussed or isn't obvious. You're stretching here, especially since LITERALLY IN THE SAME PARAGRAPH (that you chose to cut off for whatever reason) I was making the point that fitz's argument was dumb, NOT the point that it made me obvtown.

But again – there really wasn’t Towm motivation. Or more correctly Town motivation that makes a lick of sense. Having’s points were not by any means off the wall. Supposed Town you should have no reason to say “Hey that was a stupid hammer must be scum motivated” since Town you should not know Moz was flipping Town. Given all you’ve said about how you were Town who Derp-hammered Day 1 there are realms of possibility where Town Hans derp hammers Moz scum there. Yet you didn’t given that a second thought and immediately went on the attack.

I called the HAMMER into question. Did you see me give a "oh no moz was town oh woe is me" spiel? Did you see anything OTHER THAN my calling the hammer into question there? If so please demonstrate.

Or please demonstrate how a twilight questioning of the hammerer is only useful given a town flip. If Moz flipped scum, would questioning that hammer somehow be meaningless?

And now you are back-tracking. As I just said above – again you really didn’t have any reason to question the hammer before the flip as Town. Post flip? At least then you can logically scum-hunt knowing it was a hammer on Town.

How? You SAY it's suspect but your reasons are bogus. It looked like a potential scum-hammer (whether or not it was on a buddy), so I went after it. I don't need to wait for the mod to tell me the flip to be useful.

Nope. Your stance is predicated on a flip Town you should not have known. No way around that. Again repeating that my logic is bad doesn’t make it so. Sorry for you on that.

That's pretty much bullshit though. I QUESTION his hammer under the assumption that it is UNLIKELY that he as town made that mistake given that it already happened, AND that there was another vote on Moz (and a sketchy looking vote at that) immediately before his vote. Please explain where I imply, much less state, that it is somehow an impossible town process. The paragraph that you cite below is COMPLETELY consistent with the reasoning as I explain it. No assumption that it is impossible as town exists.

Nope. Your thought process that Hans was scummy before hypo-Town you could know it was a bad hammer combined with the fact that you refuse to acknowledge his “crime” is exactly the same as yours but his isn’t likely to come from Town while yours totally did means you are just playing “Nah nah nah nah nah your are stupid” games at this point.

The one good thing about this exchange is that I probably can rule out you and Hans as being partners. So that’s helpful.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So the Nahdia alt was RC … I feel bad for him that he keeps feeling the need to replace into games with me as secret alts.

But RC’s push and subsequent death means my course for today is clear.

VOTE: Fitz

There is no reason for scum to Nightkill RC (who was Town) if both Fitz and myself are Town. He was a mislynch vote in their pocket if that was the case given he was the originator of the push. Scum could have won outright by getting a mislynch and then killing before a lynch could happen the next day.

Yet they didn’t. They chose to kill RC first. The only logical conclusion is that fitz is Mafia. Either that or the Mafia team decided to do it for the lulz. And if that’s the case – the game is going to be lost anyway so no harm in placing the vote.

I’ll go back and look through the thread directly (this vote was based on some phone skimming I did during the Super Bowl) later and see if anything merits actual response.

[MagnaofIllusion]

U r gonna get lynched tomorrow MoI.

Lynching Fitz today will be easy.

unless MOIs vote was bussing... im not confident in Fitz, 100% confident in MOI. we lynch MOI tomorrow. regardless of whether Fitz is on the wagon, we vote Fitz tomorrow then go from there.

And another round of cognitive dissonance from Hans – there would be no tomorrow with lynching Fitz if he was Town and as conflicted as he claimed in the later post.

Hans knows Fitz is scum so knows that the game will continue with a Fitz lynch.

I’m happy to take the rope tomorrow as a lynch on Fitz Scum means my mislynch doesn’t lose the game and Hans can be strung up quickly to give Town even more time to find Fitz and Hans’ last partner.

[MagnaofIllusion]

nah man you're hanging today. no doubt about it. your eagerness to lynch Fitz does not come from partner partner bussing.

You are right it doesn't come from bussing. Fitz is scum. Luckily you need to convince at least 1 Town to mislynch me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

discrediting won't work m8.

Buzzword BBQ everyone. Come get your fresh, deliciouis buzzword BBQ here ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

I can summarize the Fitz above post in a few lines ...

"Look how measured and Townie I am. I totally don't think the lynch should be between myself and MoI today despite the fact that it make ZERO sense for RC to have been killed if we both are Town. But totally lynch MoI first because I am totally Town and it loses Town the game so buy my slight hidden AtE and believe my pointless self-meta that I totally don't bus".

[MagnaofIllusion]

We need all of town to be engaged if we have a chance of winning... Where the fuck are you all?

The definition of LAMIST posting from scum … “I’m so Town look how frustrated I am”.

--

I can summarize your vote on me in one line....

Your "logical reasoning" so far in this game has proven at best, wrong, and at worst...scum motivated.

If your vote rationale is sound it would be indicative that you are the scum between us.

To put me out there as scum for little more than DV speculation is careless or by design. Your caveat that if you are wrong town has lost anyway is pushing a faulty conclusion. Because you are wrong as I am town...and if I am not the lynch today town still has a chance.

What is your current position on the tell you presented towards Hans that his meta would seem to negate?

The bolded is of course hogwash in that you can only say that from your perspective which doesn’t have any meaning for anyone but you.

Do you honestly think one of us isn’t going to be the lynch today? RC’s death assured me of that. Frankly the only other person I’d bother to vote anyway is SuperHans. I know he’s already voting me and I haven’t been quicklynched by this point so he’s your scum partner. You keep saying “this is a faulty conclusion” but can’t come up with a reason my logic is faulty. Fact – scum had Town RC to help push through a lynch on one of us. That is undeniable. Saving their Daykill until after he helps them do get a mislynch is not just optimal play it is not-Moron play. So unless you think the entire scum team is morons then it stands to reason that one of us is Mafia. I know it’s not me. Feel free to show how that train of logic is faulty …

I mean I can go through your ISO and point out how your behavior fits much better with scum than mine does. I’ve made myself a target by being proactive on town lynches. You, on the other hand, were on both lynches and have been staying below the radar. Not being the pusher … just being part of the mislynch. In this set-up with very limited Scum kills that’s what you have to do. You came out implicating (and backpedelling when I called you on it) that I was most to blame for the game-state even before RC got killed.

I’m not moving my vote. Either we get a scum lynch on you today (and my mislynch tomorrow doesn’t seal the game for scum) or the game ends with my mislynch. See … I can call myself Town repeatedly over and over also.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Doom

- you probably need to get fully caught up since RC (Nahdia) has been dead for several pages ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOI is not town!!!

i don't get how you can scum read fitz without scum reading MOI.

Nah, I'm Town.

Superhanz and Fitz are scum and Super is spamming Appeals to Repetition to try to save his partner and win the game with my mislynch.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Doom we need to be on the same wagon, i would feel much more comfortable lynching MOI today. i am 100% certain he is scum at this point, we lynch Fitz tomorrow.
iv had my vote on MOI for the last 12 hours and there has been nothing.

"I'd much rather lynch Town today and win than bus my partner Fitz"

And scum need Town to vote me to get a quicklynch not partners voting Hans ... so you voting me of course doesn't lead to a quicklynch.

But at this point if Doom is Town then Fitz can drop a vote and the last partner can seal the win.

[MagnaofIllusion]

We are on LyLo and if we mislynch we have lost the game. going for a comprimise or player who is lynch bait isn't good enough, we need to be 100% sure, and MOI is the only way we can be 100% sure. we lynch fitz tomorrow then work on {Lucca, You (sorry :z) or UD}

What do I see bolded above? Fitz is lynch bait? Bullshit of the highest order.

And of course anyone who says "We can be 100% sure" in a game with no way to be 100% sure is scum. Have to overplay your confidence as much as possible to save your partner Fitz there Hans ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

We are on LyLo and if we mislynch we have lost the game.

going for a comprimise or player who is lynch bait isn't good enough

,

Misrep? The fuck you say?

YOU JUST SAID THAT GOING FOR SOMEONE OTHER THAN ME IS GOING FOR A PLAYER THAT IS LYNCH BAIT. THE ONLY PLAYER ON THE TABLE IS FITZ.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Scum is:
x3
{UD, Revan, Lucca, MOI, Fitz}

i can't see any of these combinations working without MOI

Lol - nice buddying attempt .. "Doom everyone but me and you are possible scum".

And the empty "I can't see any team without MoI" is more scum hyperbole. Why is that Hans? Give us an explanation ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

dont think having 1 certain town read counts as buddying.

I does based on the timing ... Doom appears in the thread and you've gone all out to get his vote. Including him as your only "Not Possible Scum" is just another facet of that.

[MagnaofIllusion]

If I have the chance to quickhammer MoI or havingfitz, I will. Just to let you know in advance.

Doom you do understand that if you are Town then Fitz and whoever is Hans and Fitz's other partner can just coordinate in the Daytalk PT to arrange my mislynch, correct?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yup. But I think you're scum.

And if you are Town game is over so then it doesn't much matter how bad your read on Hans and myself is ...

I'd ask you to articulate why you think I am scum but I don't really care enough to bother.

[MagnaofIllusion]

fuck off m8, dont play the matyr card.

I'd tell you to do the same but as scum it is your job to get your mislynch any way you can so I understand it isn't personal just business for you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Aw, come on. This is fun. I'm being stubborn and feeling good about it.

This is me waiting to see your post-game reaction ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

SOMEBODY VOTE!
I'M TIRED OF SITTING HERE!
I HAVE STAYED ON THIS PAGE SINCE MY LAST POST AND I AM TIRED OF IT!
LET'S LYNCH ONE OF THEM!

Huh I retract everything I said earlier ...

This is not a Town post ...

Fitz / Hans / Doom? Tomorrow morning I'll dig into that juicy trio and see what pops out of the thread ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

Game over ..

So I guess that Doom was the bad Town after all ..

[MagnaofIllusion]

Thanks for the game Karnos. As I said in my email in the future I think you need to be much more proactive as a Mod. Vote Counts once a real-life day and timely prods are a basic requirement of adequate modding.

Lucca is probably the actual scum MVP - did a great job looking active even while being a one-trick pony (Tunneling UD) and not getting really called out for it since there were so many worse looking Townies.

I should never have let my gut early scum-read on Fitz go by looking at past games. Huge mistake there. As was thinking Hans would not be stupid enough as scum to worry about being linked to two Town players. Will not make that mistake with him again.

Town really doesn't get an MVP as no-one played significantly well, myself included. Glad I can delete my role PM and lose my bookmark for this game.

MOI lost the game for town when he gave up trying to defend himself.

Yeah I made the mistake of giving you too much credit early on that you were a competent player. In the future if we cross paths and I see scummy play I'll lynch you and if anyone says "That doesn't make sense why would scum Hans act that way" I'll link to this game and push your lynch through. So at least something useful comes out of this game for me.