Alisae V Pine: Trees Apparently Make Good Treestumps

[GreyICE]

This game is 10 pages? WTF. I've been sick and sleeping.

*checks page 10*

Okay, Katsuki is voting Firebringer, sure, why not.

Vote: Firebringer

I'm sure there's good reasons for this.

[GreyICE]

Access to the masonry?

Dammit I'm gonna have to read the game mechanics, aren't I?

[GreyICE]

...

I'm confused

[GreyICE]

Ugh I actually read his ISO and there was asking for fruit and shit. What is fruit. Why is he asking for it.

I'm going to figure this out tomorrow.

[GreyICE]

Fruit is a game mechanic, read the OP

Oh, Pine hands them out for WIFOM purposes. Gee. So Katsuki was goodvoting I see.

[GreyICE]

Pine wants me to say I'm a mason. I'm a mason. My mason buddy is Untrod Tripod. Please shoot us both.

[GreyICE]

Oh Mastina is scum. Lawl.

Ez money ez mode.

[GreyICE]

Someone said this was ez money.

Vote: Mastina

[GreyICE]

Let's fucking go, scum caught. Seriously, that reaction is utter garbage.

Agreed.

VOTE: LLD

[GreyICE]

Let's fucking go, scum caught. Seriously, that reaction is utter garbage.

Agreed.

VOTE: LLD

This is a good vote, more people should do this.

[GreyICE]

LLD is scum, but not the sort I want to immediately lynch.

Fine with this guy dying too fyi.

[GreyICE]

Hey GreyICE!!

What makes you say this? Like, I trust your LLD reads, but I like to know the reasoming behind

Eh, she's scum. It's hard to explain, she just is. There's nothing wrong, it's more like everything is just slightly fake.

[GreyICE]

ringfinger sheeping GreyICE onto an LLD wagon seems like the least informative lynch I'd have ever seen, I will double down on the slot being scummy and still not ideal compared to an equally scummy (or even slightly less scummy) slot

Dead scum is plenty informative. It informs me I'm closer to winning.

[GreyICE]

Hey thx for confirming me town Pine

[GreyICE]

Is overexplaining a joke scummy? We report, you decide.

[GreyICE]

Im just going of the feels im getting from your slot. You are also being way more defensive about this than i think you would normally be.

Town you would see me reach out to you and would high five me and apologize. I think scum you would try to turn this around on me because you have no other way to explain it to me in a way that is going to make me feel less like this is history repeating itself.

What about my LLD wagon

its awesome

it has candy

delicious delicious candy

made from dead trees

[GreyICE]

I LITERALLY GOT TAUNTED BY PINE FOR FUCKING BEING UNDRAFTABLE BECAUSE NO ONE WILL EVER TAKE ME FUCKING SERIOUSLY AND IGNORED IT BECAUSE Y'ALL ARE STUPID FOR EVEN DISCUSSING PINE, BUT APPARENTLY HE'S FUCKING PSYCHIC BECAUSE I'M LITERALLY SAT HERE WITH TWO SCUM UNDER MY BOOT, DOING ACTUAL LITERAL SCUMMY THINGS UNDER MY WATCH, AND Y'ALL LIKE.

Sure I'll buy xof

but the jjf vote was fucking trash

and you're not town if you made it

[GreyICE]

I LITERALLY GOT TAUNTED BY PINE FOR FUCKING BEING UNDRAFTABLE BECAUSE NO ONE WILL EVER TAKE ME FUCKING SERIOUSLY AND IGNORED IT BECAUSE Y'ALL ARE STUPID FOR EVEN DISCUSSING PINE, BUT APPARENTLY HE'S FUCKING PSYCHIC BECAUSE I'M LITERALLY SAT HERE WITH TWO SCUM UNDER MY BOOT, DOING ACTUAL LITERAL SCUMMY THINGS UNDER MY WATCH, AND Y'ALL LIKE.

Sure I'll buy xof

but the jjf vote was fucking trash

and you're not town if you made it

You really don't think that dude's votes are scummy?

I literally gave reason. I didn't just vote him cause he was pissing me off.

I showed people his votes.

He reacted to defend himself.

I pressed on it.

He reacted poorly.

I voted to see how it would go, and because I thought he was scum.

Did you even bother to read the post I made about his vote progression or the ISO I did on it?

Yeah i read it

Yeah you have no idea how I play, it's cool

he didn't give two shits

crapping christ how is that a bad reaction? he's telling you he dgaf

he clearly doesn't have strong reads which is unsurprising, a lot of people are there

and krazy's content is a fucking joke, the best reason to town read her is the idea that Pine wouldn't draft her if that's how much she's gonna post

[GreyICE]

Lynching LLD because she's good at scum is gross. That's not playing to wincon.

that'd be a stronger argument in games where alignment is randomly decided

but overall that's not what anyone is saying anyway. they're saying she's harder to read because she's a good player

what's gross is this argument, congratulations on taking your town read and burning it

[GreyICE]

it's bad because it's LITERALLY DEFLECTIVE, KEITH.

IF HE'S TOWN, WHY DOESN'T HE GO "SO YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND HOW I PLAY AT ALL, LOL. HERE'S WHY"

he doesn't. He just deflects. That makes me think he's hiding something and I've struck a nerve.

YOU KNOW HOW I PLAY. TELL ME IN WHAT WORLD I DON'T POUNCE ON THAT AS TOWN TRYING TO FIGURE SHIT OUT.

Because he's a bit offended you're wrong and he doesn't really give a crap. He figures you'll come around because he's fucking town, and he thinks you're town, and that'll shine through. Christ, that's more reaction than I usually give when some townie votes me (actually are any voting me right now? Probably). The difference in reaction between you voting him and The_Worst voting him was HUGE and is fairly fucking easily discernible. And p. damn hard to fake mostly because it doesn't look like he's actually trying to fake it in any way.

You're pouncing on him because you smell blood. Too bad I'm a shark hunter, and this ain't shark week. Also:

But worse than that, if your logic holds, he chose to draft me and not you.

WHAT KIND OF PLAY IS THAT?! WE'RE ALWAYS GONNA BE PROBLEMATIC IN THAT WORLD. EITHER HE DRAFTS US BOTH OR NEITHER OF US AT ALL.

I HAVE LESS EQUITY AS A RESULT.

Y'know I don't really fall back on WIFOM too often because often times WIFOM is a sortable puzzle

But fucking christ this hurts me. This is WIFOM mixed with bleach

[GreyICE]

I’m not talking about you, was talking about ice.

Get your head out of your ass dude ur barely average in terms of play from what I have seen

Okay, I know this is a fucking lie. The last game I was scum with Lexi-town was the fucking Tarhalindur disaster called BlazBlue mafia. And we were far too big in the middle of Tarhalindur's shitshow of reviving nonsense, bulletproof bodyguard-PGOs and lightning rod vigs to make any coherent arguments.

Oh wait, there was that Zoraster game, but I just shot her ASAP with all our justice because fucked if I was dealing with that, and that game was also a shitshow for totally different reasons (me+Fate screaming match)

[GreyICE]

I’m not talking about you, was talking about ice.

Get your head out of your ass dude ur barely average in terms of play from what I have seen

Okay, I know this is a fucking lie. The last game I was scum with Lexi-town was the fucking Tarhalindur disaster called BlazBlue mafia. And we were far too big in the middle of Tarhalindur's shitshow of reviving nonsense, bulletproof bodyguard-PGOs and lightning rod vigs to make any coherent arguments.

Oh wait, there was that Zoraster game, but I just shot her ASAP with all our justice because fucked if I was dealing with that, and that game was also a shitshow for totally different reasons (me+Fate screaming match)

What part of “last game I saw both of you in” is confusing you dipshit?

Suck a bag of dicks you useless waste of oxygen

[GreyICE]

In that you can be this stupid and not have dropped dead of eating paint chips or spontaneously forgetting to breath, you can call me confused.

[GreyICE]

This is the last post I can make on this before I need to go nuclear, because we're both town and I have to stop this before it becomes a complete takeover of the thread.

Go nuclear. Don't. I don't care. This isn't changing my reads. I'm not arguing whether JJH is scum - for the record I think you were bussing Xof. You know I don't argue with scum. I lynch them.

[GreyICE]

this role doesn't make a lick of sense as scum and it's gross. I'm town, Keith. I know you lynch scum and don't argue but I'm ending this shit here. Reevaluate based on the fact I'm town, or don't and perma tunnel me I guess, but this is conclusive proof in my mind.

So what you're saying is that you're a bulletproof ascetic. Could scum get a bulletproof ascetic?

Hmmm.

I dunno.

Wait yes I do know, that's a great scum claim

[GreyICE]

this role doesn't make a lick of sense as scum and it's gross. I'm town, Keith. I know you lynch scum and don't argue but I'm ending this shit here. Reevaluate based on the fact I'm town, or don't and perma tunnel me I guess, but this is conclusive proof in my mind.

So what you're saying is that you're a bulletproof ascetic. Could scum get a bulletproof ascetic?

Hmmm.

I dunno.

Wait yes I do know, that's a great scum claim

WHO THE FUCK GIVES SCUM A BULLETPROOF ASCETIC IN A POWER MADNESS GAME BASED ON DRAFTING?!

WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU

WHAT IS YOUR MALFUNCTION. THIS IS LIKE EX-POSTFACTO GOING BACK TRYING TO JUSTIFY ANYTHING YOU CAN TO KEEP CALLIN} ME SCUM

Um, no. That's actually a very fair scum role.

In general, scum Godfather > Scum Ascetic, because Godfather will give false results and appear town, while Ascetic will give no result (and is often considered basically a miller claim). Ascetic has some advantages - can't be jailkept, roleblocked, etc. but is in general slightly worse than a godfather.

Then we add in bulletproof. Is bulletproof godfather really that far out? Nah. I've seen bulletproof godfathers, hell, I've been a bulletproof godfather in a MOI game. And that's assuming you're not fakeclaiming like Ascetic to Commuter.

On top of that scum commuter adds interesting tension as you almost certainly can't night kill the night you commute.

For anyone with doubts on LLD:

She just claimed to be immune to investigation and immune to the scum night kill. She will never die and power roles will never sort her, according to her own claim. This isn't a problem you get to kick down the road. Decide. Here and now.

[GreyICE]

If we have a bulletproof vig, a Mafia Commuter is basically a traitor.

I

um

what

[GreyICE]

Yes. It proves my role and commuter is not scum.

wut

like

First, being targetable by actions N1 doesn't prove that you're a commuter
Second, a commuter can definitely be scum. I will fucking meta search this if you agree to suicide if you're wrong. There is literally nothing wrong with a scum commuter - it means you have to lynch them with dayplay and dayplay alone, which is perfectly fine for scum. In fact, like all bulletproof claims, it's an inherently scummy claim.
Third, I'm not scumreading you for your scummy role claim. It just doesn't help.

[GreyICE]

I don't trust VCA on non-wagons. 6 votes in a 27 player game is the same as 3 votes in a 13 player game. A 5 vote and 6 vote wagon could both be all town and we'd have barely over half the town in those groups.

Magic only happens once we get a real wagon rolling. It's been 54 pages and nothing but dreck. Lets get a real wagon going and see what shakes out my man.

[GreyICE]

Just for the record:

If Chickadee successfully neighbourised LLD, it would prove that LLD was targetable N1.
It would not prove anything else to do with LLD's claim.
Also, commuter can definitely be scum.

A commuter is possibly scum but it's unlikely. They have to be given a multiacting modifier just in case they need to use fruit, which is awkward, when the only upside is to allow the mafia godfather to not be a godfather if she likes, which is silly.

That piles on top of skepticism for LLD having a godfatheresque role at all. It's like.. designing a setup that reenacts mountainous LLD mafia games. Jingle wouldn't do something so boring. If there's a godfather it's Menalque or xofelf or something

You mean it's a balanced role with upsides and downsides for scum, put on a player who claims she is never lynched in a game of mafia and only loses as scum to night actions?

[GreyICE]

Commuter trumps roleblocker my dude. That's like NAR 101

[GreyICE]

If that is the case Keith why the fuck would i claim it as scum

Why not just claim mason if I am going down like that

Lost in a fucking tunnel

Because bulletproof is a great early scum claim. That's why scum use it all the fucking time.

It's not a vanilla claim which draws a "well you might as well lynch, it's just a VT". It feels like a power role. No one ever asks why the power role is still alive. On top of that you can't be investigated, which helps if you're alive on day 7.

If you claimed mason, eventually you'd either need a mason buddy, or a real mason would claim and counterclaim you. And if someone claims buddy and you get investigated, you both blow up. It's quite a gambit in what's supposed to be a power madness game. We both know fakeclaiming mason as scum is an insane gambit that only very rarely pays off, and usually pays off done around day 2-3 in a mini with a number of roles (where there's just enough churn for no one to ask why the masons are still alive).

[GreyICE]

Alisae, I know you're a treestump, but you're also confirmed town, and that means something. Please take a look at LLD for me. Your support could make a difference.

For the record, I think the worst is town.

[GreyICE]

holy mother of christ every time I say okay I'm gonna actually read this now I see there's been like 4 pages of prick waving dick fights and I get mad at close the window

You know at some point this sort of post starts to look a lot like scumplaining.

I might think Lexi's scum. But see, one of the reasons she gets so many wins is that people at least know she puts in effort when you lose to her. She played with her heart, mind, body, and soul all out there.

While losing to THIS feels like shit, because you are playing like shit.

[GreyICE]

It's like, what happens if I lose to UT-scum? It's like "wow, his brilliant strategy of literally posting NOTHING and still having his RVS vote down 59 pages after it was first posted has outwitted me because I thought scum would at least have the dignity to at least try to pretend they were town."

I really hope Jingle puts fucking vigs in his game, because you catching a vig bullet would be the greatest justice I could imagine. And it would be a great shot, regardless of your alignment, because the only thing anyone should be able to say about your alignment right now is "lean scum"

[GreyICE]

Oh no, UT has been a useless git in like 50% of the games I played with him. This is not "outside his meta".

It's just at some point losing to a player playing like that hurts more than losing to a player who is not sucking like a black hole.

[GreyICE]

Oh no, UT has been a useless git in like 50% of the games I played with him. This is not "outside his meta".

It's just at some point losing to a player playing like that hurts more than losing to a player who is not sucking like a black hole.

Oh, unvote then. I'm also not in the market keeping certain people from winning. Play to your win condition.

I'm still pretty sure Lexi is my win condition. I'm just NOT sure that UT is not also scum. And the fact is, he's been on site since 2003. He has seen bigger dick waving contests than this. He's seen games with ABR and Fate in them. He's seen games with Fate and Reaper Charlie in them. Hell, I'm positive that he's seen games with me, Reckoner, and Fate, back when we were all on hair triggers, and there were many who would throw in to the ring besides.

That specifically felt like an excuse. In a 20:7, any given player should have a 25% chance to flip scum. Pine knows that at a minimum UT won't wig out and give away scumbuddies, and he's adept at surviving, and he at least doesn't mind being scum. That moves him up to a 33%. This? This is starting to feel more like a 50%, and 50% is where I get very happy to pull the trigger - if we only do 50/50 lynches for the entire game, our win is practically assured.

[GreyICE]

VOTE: UT

Unfortuantely he's a problem that can go away tomorrow.

If Lexi is scum, she can shoot everyone who can support her lynch, and she'll never be handled by night play. That's why sticking a commuter role in her hands would be top notch scum-choosing from Pine - given three or four days to shoot this town into shape, she'll be wagon proof.

[GreyICE]

UT is still my preferred lynch but at the very least I'm not worried about him end gaming

Why do you think Lexi is town?

[GreyICE]

I mean actually wagoning a mason to claim usually looks awful. I've gotten lynched for that before as town.

For scum, finding out that someone is a mason is just as valuable, because it's not like masons ever get lynched.

[GreyICE]

Untrod Tripod has requested replacement.

God fucking dammit

Yeah, right?

Maybe we can badger Reck to replace him.

you’re gonna try to get reck into replacing in a 60+ page game

Yeah good luck my dude

Hey, hey, lets not fight. If he's scum, Pine should get to pick who replaces him, otherwise Alisae should decide.

[GreyICE]

And thank you for the message Alisae!

[GreyICE]

/me headdesks

NO COME ON WE HAVE SCUM ON THE ROPES
JJH ISN'T IT

[GreyICE]

I do still feel like there might be some reason to not lynch LLD because of mechanics.
If commuter actually beats everything in the effing game like GreyICE alleges, then if LLD no-commutes tonight and maybe N2, mafia could be horrified into shooting her. If an investigative clears her shot, she can start commuting and become BP IC, which is very powerful, it creates a huge tilt on lategame EVs.

Wow you're starting to get the picture. Bulletproof town is very strong. Bulletproof scum is basically a goon with flavor
Unlimited commuter town can't even be strongmanned and is thus even stronger. Unlimited commuter scum is weaker than a godfather.

I too wish I lived in Christmastown, but it doesn't work like that.

[GreyICE]

HE'S NOT
BUT HE'S SCUMMY

I mean is he? What is he actually doing that is scummy? Shitposting? Okay, that's "NAI" as they say.

You know what? Lets just do the old CES tell. Lets see where the votes are:

VOTE: Krazy

VOTE: Firebringer

VOTE: Krazy

VOTE: Ari

VOTE: Xofelf

VOTE: Krazy

VOTE: Untrod Tripod

VOTE: Ari

VOTE: Krazy

VOTE: LLD

VOTE: Krazy

Check the post numbers: 8,37,83,144,283,357,668,845,1168,1278,1594. Look at what was happening around those. Don't even read his other posts, just follow the vote. Where's his head at, what is he doing?

[GreyICE]

like I feel let down because I feel like town!jjh
just
does
more

Okay Alisae, I hate meta as much as anybody, but I went looking for this paragon of scumhunters, JJH:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

Can you please walk me through what I should be looking for? Because how he interacted with people is different, because the people are different. And certainly he did more as the game developed. But I'm not seeing the large differences.

I'm well known for putting little stock in meta, but I'd love it if one of you can tell me what these damn differences are? What should I be looking for? What am I missing? This game, is as of now, 4 days old. In the town game I lynched, everything before this post was the first four days: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11083459

What was the extra stuff he did in that game? I am happy to vote with confirmed town, all the time, as long as there's at least a glimmer that the wagon makes sense. But I need the wagon to make sense to me. JJH's votes speak to me on a primal level. You could practically chart the course of his game. He:

- RVS pokes around at some people
- Votes Xofelf because it's any case is a good case when the game is a day old, it moves the game forward
- Votes Krazy because Krazy is producing zero content and he notices that.
- Votes UT because see above
- Votes Ari because lets face it, Aristophanes cheeriness has been FAKE AS FUCK and I'm sure I'm not the only one getting a little jumpy at that slot. Especially since I looked up this previous game and it TURNS OUT ARI WON THE WHOLE THING FOR PINE SOLO and lets face it, drafting the guy who won him the whole thing solo again is both cheeky and smart, and Pine is cheeky and smart.
- Votes Krazy because lets see, did Krazy add any content or do anything?
- Votes Ari because see above
- Votes Krazy because see above
- Votes LLD because he's slightly sold on the case, and voting Krazy is not getting results
- Votes Krazy because he isn't sold on the LLD wagon and Krazy is still producing zero content and he's not going to let that slide

Christ it's like Dennis the Menace dotted line trails here. I see exactly what he's doing.

[GreyICE]

@Penguin: I know I'm not voting and you'd rather I was. I'm not the kind of person who votes all willy-nilly. I tend to only vote when I feel confident where I'm voting is scum, or to reaction test to what I say my reasons are for voting that slot. Because I tend to respond after there's been a bunch of pages, I don't want to have a vote somewhere I'm not confident in and to come back and find my vote helped a lynch happen that I didn't want to have happen.

Christ I was like "who the fuck is Penguin?" Then I discovered this ISO:

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

Are you seriously responding to THIS POST?

Hello:

Not Voting (5): xofelf, UntrodTripod, Formerfish, Aristophanes, ankamius,

Do something.

And, you're welcome, Jingle.

The only way you found that was if you used the search function in this thread for every mention of your name. Um... what. The. Fuck. Are. You. Doing.

[GreyICE]

At what point? There's various reasons, mostly related to everything you're doing making sense to me (I can disagree with something and still think it's town motivated FYI - I'd love a confirmed town commuter too, for instance).

Why would I scumread you?

[GreyICE]

Huh that's pretty much it

Maybe a bit overly specific in some cases, and the Ari justification is off because Ari just generally reads fake to me

And my most recent Krazy vote was because Dannflor voted there and it seemed like we might get a wagon there which would force Krazy to produce more content, plus since Dannflor is one of my main townreads it just worked

ok but
why Krazy
I never really got that.

Okay, I have a few things to answer, but real quick and IMHO, it's because he RVSed Krazy. That's all. There's like ten people who aren't in the game right now. I didn't know penguin Power existed until Xofelf (who is scum) showed me. Did you know there was a skygazer in the game? Yeah, me either. She's a nonentity.

He kind of "owns" Krazy because he RVS voted Krazy, that's all. We all have one or two of the lurkers we'd love to kick in the balls (or ovaries) and get some damn content out of.

[GreyICE]

I'm literally promising to self vote and say no words for the entire day if I'm wrong.

I will make one post voting myself with no other words and sink quietly into the night.

You're not paranoid about me getting out of my situation this is just petty.

You've promised this before. As town. As scum. Regardless of alignment this is always a lie.

This is naked survivalism. I commend it, but it is time to end this.

[GreyICE]

It's actually not a lie because I've never promised to post a vote and leave the thread before. I've promised to lynch myself and then talked people out of it. How am I gonna get out of it when I can't talk or I'll die lol

I really don't care to get into the weeds of past games and the various promises made.
Or the fact you are literally recycling the "my husband made me cry" tactic from the Dead of Winter game where you were a traitor
Because I know you're scum
You know I know you're scum
This is just playing to the crowd, who hasn't been there, and hasn't seen it, and don't know that this is exactly the scum pattern

And I'm playing to them too. I will carry water as long as I need to to see this happen.

[GreyICE]

Why do you give a super powerscum scum player a full commuter when they’re town

I'm 100% sure there are players in this list that are extremely hard to read. If you give commuter to town, why not give it to someone very much capable of obvtowning down the road? I don't know LLD but from what i've seen I think she's probabllllyy capable of doing so

Oh god yes. LLD is 100% capable of being obvtown to every living player, usually when she's completely scum.

What I don't get here is you have players who know her very, very well. You don't know her at all. Yet you're here to tell us about things you don't know about without listening to the people who know about them?

My friend, sometimes you have to set aside your ego, and at least consider that other people might have a point.

[GreyICE]

crap im agreeing with firebringer
what is this

[GreyICE]

Iconeum's self meta is of a game where he describes himself as pocketed by scum.

Iconeum, did you do any self-reflection as a result of that game?

[GreyICE]

I was gonna go on a bit about how I'm kind of widely scumread so I don't know whether that's optimal

pops who is scumreading you
outside of LLD
because this sort of hyperconsciousness of scumreads when im not even seeing it
isn't actually a good look

[GreyICE]

Hmmm. I just realized something interesting:

If

anyone

performs a night action on the target of your choice, you will see them.

Pine will not lie about the abilities of his gifts or their mechanics. He may omit information.

Pine could have stopped at one shot watcher, or said the watcher functions identically to the watcher from the MafiaScum wiki. He didn't. He said that if

anybody

performs a night action on the target you will see them. Since that isn't a lie, this game is confirmed to have no scum ninja.

[GreyICE]

Alternatively it's a super watcher that breaks ninjas.

[GreyICE]

I’ll give the Watcher fruit to whoever hammers LLD

A LIE!

Pine cannot complete his end of the bargain if whoever hammers LLD doesn't post

Bargain: Watcher

.

@Jingle:

Since you're confirming Pine's lies, can you confirm this statement is not a lie?

If

anyone

performs a night action on the target of your choice, you will see them.

[GreyICE]

To the limits of Pine's knowledge, of course, if there's a town ninja I wouldn't expect him to be able to answer that.

But to Pine's knowledge he's stated that every player he knows of that performs a night action on the target will be seen by that watcher.

[GreyICE]

If anyone performs a night action on the target of your choice, you will see them.

A LIE!

Anyone affected by the ninja modifier will not be reported to the player using the fruit. Additionally, no information will be given to the person using the fruit if they are roleblocked via some means. Honestly, I thought this went without saying.

No, when you say something is

the absolute truth

then nothing goes without saying Jingle. If you want to say "every role Pine hands out will conform to the MafiaScum wiki on roles with no hidden elements or modifiers" then I'll assume they're exactly what they say on the tin, nothing more or less.

If you want to say "they might have hidden elements or functions that Pine doesn't have to tell you about, but he can't lie about them" I will look for every caveat, hook, monkey's paw, or other defect in what he says.

[GreyICE]

Like I'm going to assume there's nothing fucking awful and bastard in them, like a neighborizor that poisons the person who takes it, or a watcher that causes town to lose the game. But I don't think it's beyond the scope of the game to hand out a watcher when the scum have a ninja. What Pine wrote seemed to confirm that the scum did not have a Ninja, what you wrote confirms that they do, which makes a watcher shot utterly worthless.

[GreyICE]

Like I'm going to assume there's nothing fucking awful and bastard in them, like a neighborizor that poisons the person who takes it, or a watcher that causes town to lose the game. But I don't think it's beyond the scope of the game to hand out a watcher when the scum have a ninja. What Pine wrote seemed to confirm that the scum did not have a Ninja, what you wrote confirms that they do, which makes a watcher shot utterly worthless.

Hey hey calm down there Sun tzu

Goddamn it, if they're going to make a mechanic of their game "we hand out fae bargains" I'm going to fucking lawyer those fae bargains for all they're worth.

[GreyICE]

@Pops: We can't use board game logic, because board game logic assumes that the rules are a neutral force and operate in good faith. Here, the "rules" are a malevolent force that seeks to trick and deceive us.

Setup Specific Information

Alisae is aligned with the Loyal Retainers.
Pine is aligned with Pine's Minions.
Neither Alisae nor Pine are valid submissions for Night Actions of any variety. Neither Alisae nor Pine have a vote, nor can they be given a vote via any means.
I will not lie to you unless it is directly related to a role like Godfather.
This game is

20

:

7

.
This game features non random Role Distribution. I chose who would be town power roles (With the exception of the masonry), ostensibly to give town the best chance possible. (I was more concerned about fun. Deal with it.) Scum had their power roles assigned by Pine. The scum team was decided via a draft with Pine.
Unless you are multitasking, you may not use more than one action per night.

Pine will not lie about the abilities of his gifts or their mechanics. He may omit information.

A Player may not both use a fruit and use a power in the same phase unless they are Multitasking.[/area]

A Deal With the Devil

Unlike most coniferous trees, Pine has found a way to produce delicious, fleshy fruit that give the consumer incredible power. Feel free to approach the Great Lord of the Forest for these powers, but be forewarned, Pine is tricky.

I can't guarantee that these fruit are safe.

The only thing I can say for sure is that Pine will not lie about what the fruit can do. He doesn't have to give them away when asked. Pine creates 2 of these fruit per day. If you would like to request a fruit from Pine, post

Bargain: [Fruit]

. Pine will either grant or refuse your request.

See, if the fruit was guaranteed to be safe and function exactly as you'd expect, I'd be generous and assume board game logic applies. But it's not. We can't say on the one hand "Pine may hand out unsafe fruit that can do ANYTHING, with the only restriction being that Pine cannot lie in any statements he makes about it" and then say "well, Pine's statements can't be expected to be 100% accurate." Like if we get a 1-shot doctor that Pine says "will prevent a person from being killed at night" then it better damn well do that, and not be a CPR doctor that prevents a person from being killed at night if they're the target of a night kill and otherwise kills them. Sure, CPR doctor is in game mechanics, but I have to trust that Pine's statement is true. If Pine says it "may prevent a person from being killed at night" then that's a completely different statement that parses differently and has to be read differently.

@Jingle: You're fine, I'm just free to use Pine's potential slips to learn more about the mafia team. I assume he's helping the mafia with his posts, so I can also use his fuckups to help the town.

[GreyICE]

Ah, but neither of those was a lie about fruit effects. The first is about the process of distribution, the second is an omission (and obvious). It would only be a lie if I suggested it was immune to standard foiling methods. The Watcher version of Strongman or whatever.

That was a very coy way to avoid saying Ninja, Pine

[GreyICE]

@Pine: Do you have a Vig fruit available for me?

Vigilante fruits are one possible thing I can grow, but none are ripe right now.

Who do you want to shoot?

Can I pick "everyone who is not me"?

[GreyICE]

Ari I feel like you understand that the way to save someone is not to "declare they are town" but to give the town a better lynch.

Your solution is a very weak push on the Xofelf slot.

PEdit: Alisae, I hope you're joking, because right now you're pushing me to ignore you and actually go after something else. It's very frustrating to deal with the fact that the one person I can trust seems less trustworthy than the confirmed scum.

[GreyICE]

Like, Pine is sending us WIFOM

You're just straight lying to us

How is this helpful? I know the game is fun and all, and I liked the note you sent to me and LLD, but christ on a cracker I don't need confirmed town pulling these fucking stunts.

[GreyICE]

Christ, Firebringer stop antagonizing her, Alisae, just... I dunno, take a breather, talk to somebody, something.

[GreyICE]

Like, she's the one person in the town you can't get any alignment useful information out of by antagonizing, so you can't even claim it's part of how you develop reads.
It's just generic dickery.

[GreyICE]

And Alisae, I might still think LLD is scum, but that doesn't mean I don't agree with her that some of this stuff has been a little below the belt if you want her to not go off on you. I mean my first reaction to confirmed town completely faking a guilty on me would be "no I'm not, you fucking idiot, stop this shit." Having actually had guilties faked on me before (THANKS FATE) it's really fucking irritating. And it makes me want to vote a different wagon just to not reward the behavior.

[GreyICE]

Darth Cocksucker, is that you?

[GreyICE]

unvote

[GreyICE]

LLD
Ari
Xof
DGB
Pink Ball
Chennisden

For the record Chen and Pink Ball are town here
And my only strong feeling about DGB is that I wish I felt more DGB from DGB. But Pine could have picked her on rep.

[GreyICE]

Christ, fine.

Vote: LLD

I wish I knew shit this game. This is why I hate larges.

[GreyICE]

Christ Alisae. Don't tell Lexi she needs to take it easy on you then do that shit.

Because you do shit like that you are saying you are ready to take it. So don't be surprised when you fucking get both barrels, mmmkay?

[GreyICE]

Everyone likes Chapelle. Or George Carlin.

[GreyICE]

I assume the scumteam shot Nacho. Fuckers.

Goddamn it.

Our vig is also apparently on crack. To the point if it wasn't literally mod-confirmed otherwise I'd assume they're a serial killer. Still might assume it's a scum vig honestly.

[GreyICE]

Wait... hider. Shit.

[GreyICE]

because pops isn't town

Huh.

Gonna have to sell me on NOT doing this.

Vote: Pops

[GreyICE]

The only purpose of a loyal bodyguard is so you don't accidentally BG scum. I guess there's some weird tracker interactions that turn it into a cop, but w/e. It's a claim custom-designed not to live until endgame, which isn't how Mastina rolls. My only caveat is it's a fucking STUPID claim, because if you claim it, you are then vulnerable to roleblocking, which makes it totally useless. So, um, this assumes Mastina decided to derp it. Which would be expected.

*sigh*

Whatever, problem for a different day. Why is Pops scum. Lets go check this out.

Also Aristophanes is still alive. We should work on correcting that with prejudice.

[GreyICE]

oh okay. So it's not explicitly a loyal modifier. Damn

[GreyICE]

Okay I was wrong about pops

dammit

[GreyICE]

My gut says mastina is lying scum.

My gut says 9 posts of DGB content SUCKS ASS

[GreyICE]

Especially when that content is all one liners.

[GreyICE]

I can't shake the feeling that Pops watcher of Maria was designed to catch town power roles more than it was to catch scum.

[GreyICE]

Is Chickadee/DGB the worst scum distancing attempt of all time?

Like, is that it? Is this just how it reads to me, or are other people seeing this?

[GreyICE]

I used my insider connections with dead scum to bring you this shocking revelation:

Spoiler: What Pine says the scum QT looks like

Spoiler: What the real scum QT actually looks like

[GreyICE]

I'm town reading Mastina, so not voting there.
I'm currently trying to sort xof (actually talking about it a bit in my neighborhood), so not currently voting there. Though for the record, really not opposed to it.

I want more out of a spot that has a very short, opportunistic ISO, so I'm voting there.

What makes my vote on DGB bad?

It's a weak ass vote. All DGB has to do is provide content and you have an excuse to unvote it. It has no chance of forming a wagon, nor is it really put out there like it will. It's just a vote for the sake of voting. Further, you've never mentioned DGB before in this entire game. If you wanna lead a lynch wagon, you gotta fucking put some damn teeth in it. Mention her two other votes were sheeping LLD onto Xofelf and JJH which is EXACTLY what you'd expect from a scum player who was just reading the scum QT and following along.

Look at this:

Vote:Xof

But JJH's vote here is #not good and gives me the fucking creeps. Infact, a lot of JJH's vote hoping has given me the creeps. Let's go explore that momentarily.

You might have noted that LLD is EXTREMELY verbose. More so than me, and that's fucking saying something. I absolutely guarantee you the scum QT with Pine is full of her thoughts, especially early ones. Those would include Xof and JJH and why they are good bus targets or mislynches (my bet is mislynch in the case of JJH) and how she wants to pursue her cases against them. Scum who was relying on the scum QT to float along would naturally pick up on that and sheep. You're damn right her votes are opportunistic, but more than opportunistic, they're more than likely from scum that was reading LLD, not following the thread, and screwed the fucking pooch. No, if I wanted to nail DGB to the wall, I goddamn would, and I just might at that.

The problem is that the "low effort and opportunistic" is not at all sensible. She said she's going to make an effort to provide more content today, and to be fair there's a lot of players who are just floating along - Penguin, MariaR, etc. AND she's one of the few that is coming in to today making an actual effort to provide said content. So it's the PERFECT vote to have DGB do some shit and then say "oh, DGB is doing more and looks town" and lift the vote up, without her having to actually answer for anything. And then later if she flips scum you don't look like a buddy.

[GreyICE]

Also Nacho is a very, very, very DGB shot.

[GreyICE]

Ank crumbed Xof pretty obviously imo.

Also I'm at daystart so if this has been said in the last 20 pages or if the subject has moved on then I apologize.

Ohay a mastina wagon!

I'm down, but I'd like more info

The hider obviously hid behind Xof.

Who knows what killed them? I'm down for a mastina wagon!

...

COULD YOU BE SLIGHTLY MORE OBVIOUS ABOUT BEING SCUM

Vote: Aristophanes

NO

GET OUT

[GreyICE]

OUT ARI

OUT OF THE THREAD

GO BE SCUM WITH LLD IN THE DEAD THREAD

[GreyICE]

Hi titus

You're awesome

For Pine: this is buddying. Also, you killed Nacho, so now it's fucking personal

[GreyICE]

uh huh

so who'd you shoot then

[GreyICE]

oh right you no killed
lol

[GreyICE]

The kill is like a red arrow blazing at DGB

[GreyICE]

The kill is like a red arrow blazing at DGB

I think mastina would make that kill too.

You're awesome too. I still don't trust you 100% this fame.

Well, help me bus all my buddies then

[GreyICE]

Nacho is a top 10 player. I don't say that lightly. He's wrecked entire towns, entire scumteams, he's extremely good.

PEdit: Reck and UT are names, but they're not in Nacho's class, and I think they'd both say as much.

[GreyICE]

Are there any conditionals or extra powers on the fruit?

Such as:
does not affect scum
Does not stop the scum night kill
the person taking the fruit dies
the target of the fruit dies
etc.?

[GreyICE]

Okay DGB, let it never be said I passed up someone’s attempt to self vote.

Vote: DGB

[GreyICE]

What’s the town motive?

[GreyICE]

prod received. will read.

[GreyICE]

Oh wow DGB

Look at me, I'm town. I'm ignoring your reads because that self vote was awful

You know what you proved with that stunt? Nothing.

Here's a hint townies, don't self vote.

[GreyICE]

Hi, I am here.