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[Testarossa]

Heigh ho!

VOTE: NPOM

[Testarossa]

We're past the RVS, in case you didn't notice.

GB has three votes on him.

How did the GB wagon put us past RVS? Literally all three votes at that time were RVS votes, if I am generous I count your vote as non-RVS and even then it's rather eehh. You seemed to be fine with those though.

Why did you just lament about the lack of "reasoning" of the votes on you without even asking if there may have been reasoning instead of just belittling them like you did in 34?

[Testarossa]

I actually feel good with my vote on NPOM for now. My rvs vote on him was semi serious as that what GB pointed out about NPOM's questions is something I agree with. I am not necessarily bothered by his defensive attitude after my vote, but his behaviour doesn't feel townie like his immediate reaction or the way he shifts the defensive accusation to GB in 71, apparently missing the humoristic tone in GB's response. After VP's post I want to reread a few games of NPOM though to verify if this kind of behaviour is normal for him, when pressured.

Ah, fair enough. I find scum always asks small pedantic questions to seem townie.

So it just pinged me as such.

this post was made from a town perspective, and isn't easily faked
it reads very authentic and i'm concluding GB is likely town with an offchance this is actually faked (but unlikely)

I don't really care about the semantics like townslip etc., I wonder in context of 38 if missing the GB "townslip" is rather negative for NPOM, why doesn't it matter for Snowblaze, who apparently also missed this? Or is it just because NPOM was implying he was actually scumreading GB?

That said, I believe that Icon's observation on GB is coming from a town mindset, at least based on my first impression of him as he strikes me as someone who impulsively seems to put some genuine trust in supposed tells that he figures out. So this can be my first townlean.

[Testarossa]

That he didn't want to respond to my questions. He could have humored me?

This can't be scum right? The game can't literally be this easy? Of like the worst push in the world for the weakest possible reason actually being scum? Right? I mean it can't be right?

I don't like this post. I can't really put my finger down what exactly it is. If it's the tone, the exaggeration, feeling kinda fake or whatever. This post was before VP stepped in with a contra opinion regarding NPOM, when Icon was more or less dominating the conversation. I was wondering what your stance on NPOM was by this post as it comes across you take this on in a jokingly approach, which more or less looks slightly like indirect shade on NPOM, because it didn't come across to me you were thinking of awkward/bad/whatever town here. But then again you already said a few posts before in 97 that NPOM feels really testy, which sounds to me like you are tending to at least suspecting him as this is pretty much the argument that Icon and Datisi used to scumread NPOM.

So can you clarify this please? Because later after this post you decide to throw out a RVS vote, which looks weird to me considering I had the impression you were leaning on NPOM.

[Testarossa]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Icon

NPOM seems like he's pretty inexperienced. No way scum comes out and actually goes SRS MODE in RVS. The real goof here is Icon trying to make that seem scummy.

(In fact, NPOM was a pretty easy misyeet D1 in a recent game I played. He was similarly overeager to scum hunt, and the scum team just sat back and let that be a fail. Only took slight prodding to make it an all town wagon. NPOM was town vig that game.)

This assumes NPOM is town.

Like I get your thought process here in addition with your second post. But if NPOM is pretty inexperienced and an easy miselim for scum, what stops him from playing haphazardly as scum too? Scum that are going try-hard and struggling with it on page one is not necessarily something rare imo. Why do you think he is town here? Or is it rather just a consequence of you scumreading Icon?

[Testarossa]

Nothing stops him from being haphazard as scum. I'm just saying, generally speaking, scum are a cautious breed, especially early in the game.

I don't know what his scum meta is. But based on my experience with him when he was town, this would fit with his play.

Curious why you find it convincingly scummy, though willing to give you time to scan some NPOM games and come to your own conclusion on his play as town.

Tbh I was hoping for something more ingame related, but very well, I figure for the beginning it would be enough.

I find him scummy for what I already pointed out + I don't really feel like he were really trying to get a read on Icon in their long exchange and was either concerned about himself or GB. Although you can interpret the latter indirectly as that.

Personally after going through his games including the scum games on his alt I feel as expected that it is too soon to argue with meta, because I think so far he might be both in town and scum range. The only time where he was pressured early was as scum when his first post was already defensive (because he already had votes) which got responded with four votes in the next four posts. I feel he has as scum more of that sassy/mocking tone, when voted and he feels more sorting as town. There are interesting differences, but for so early I don't see any useful pro/contra arguments per meta tbh so I would rather roll with seeing more from him here.

[Testarossa]

Yeah, that's probably not that unlikely.

On another note, what is your first impression of Billy?

[Testarossa]

Seems a bit weird he went from possibly asking serious questions ("why are you lying daitsi?) to what looks like an RVS vote.

Actually I thought this question exactly was the one who was genuinely in a joking manner lol

also i wanted to wait and see if npom was gonna correct baltar about being (in)experienced, but then testarossa brought up the alt, big sad.

Urgh, sorry, my bad, thought that was common knowledge with him altslipping in all of his games.

[Testarossa]

VOTE: Billy Pilgrim

Not really away from NPOM, but I feel it's locking too much into NPOM/Icon and I don't really like Billy's posts or what he isn't doing atm.

[Testarossa]

Huh ok, suddenly so many Icon posts lol

[Testarossa]

Honestly the dude seemed testy, which could be scum or could be a way town reacts to jokey rvs. The fact that he doubled down on it almost feels too scummy to be scum. But i thought that overt hostility was too scummy to be scum before and that player ended up being scum. So this is something that im going to treat as a play style thing that may be less so later.

To come back at this, I don't get this thought process at all. So your impression on NPOM intensified that he was too scummy to be scummy and you had a similar case before (in another game?), where exactly said player ended up being scum, so you back off here... because...?

Also can you point out where NPOM was showing hostility (he was annoyed, sure, but hostility is a stronger word imo) and why you thought this hostility was scummy (or too scummy) and couldn't have come from hostile town?

I am voting here for a few reasons. I felt Iconeum was overly eager to cast a Scum net over NPOM, and I would describe the certainty that George Bailey is Town as a factor as well. I have no real certainty on whether Iconeum, NPOM or George Bailey are Town or Scum. I am not going to pretend that I have a solid answer here. But the whole Town slipping thing and arguing so strongly that there was a Town mindset just seems off to me.

One thing that I don't really get on the Ico push is the motivation for the shown certainty of Icoscum pointing out GB as town via "slip". Why not just attacking NPOM for his questions and using GB's comment as basis for his push on GB instead of coming up with a townslip? I mean it's not that Ico has even used the townslip to pocket GB (to be fair, GB disappeared after that for a while), so it feels kind of unnecessary to risk a tmi slip.

@NPOM, can you explain your hellbooks townlean? I'm not really getting any read from her posts so far.

We are not getting any reads from you either. Not a single one so far in fact.

[Testarossa]

Let's get some more votes on Icon pls. Hellbrooks, testarossa, we got a live one over here.

Nah, still solidly town on Ico. :shrug:
Like my read is mostly based on my impression of his personality that he displayed so far and looks pretty consistent to me as he started with getting excited in finding a supposed towntell for GB and getting through that to an early scumread to push until getting hotheaded and genuinely annoyed that an illogical scumread (with which I agree with to a certain extent) was used to push him. Like he comes across to me as someone that would rather break through the wall then just run past it and this showed in his back and forth with you guys, while I still feel he is trying to resolve it like he was trying with NPOM, which looked like a townie approach to me. Stuff like omgus is rather nai, especially if it becomes emotional.
Also helps that I have warmed up to have Datisi as town, who seems to be strongly familiar with Ico, so him defending Ico gives me a bit reassurement here.

Not really away from NPOM, but I feel it's locking too much into NPOM/Icon and I don't really like Billy's posts or what he isn't doing atm.

Tell me more. I'm also interested in this.

The Ico/NPOM part or the Billy part?

If the former it felt to me that everyone was just focussing on that skirmish or to keep their noses out without looking offside of there imo. Like I don't think it was SvS, for that both sides seemed too annoyed. So either TvT that was befired by someone (or scum holding back) or TvS, but then only within you or NPOM imo. But I am not that sure about that anymore, NPOM recent posts were better and I am still around null with you, which might be because you were mainly involved with Ico so far. I just feel the situation was stagnating, which wouldn't necessarily make sense if one side has scum advantage.

As for Billy, I found his response pretty vague, his handling of NPOM still looks weird, but judgement is still holding out here. What triggered me more was him appearing again only to respond to critical posts towards him, like I get one just feel obligated to it, but that is actually something I see from scum too often. Didn't helped that he wasn't really trying to get reads on people or attempted to look for scum. After all he had the luxury to come late in to have already some juicy stuff at hand. Didn't know of the storm issue of course, but still that entrance was quite lackluster.

[Testarossa]

yea. like what do u think about them

Yeah, they are mostly fine. I can understand why he got riled up by the accusations, because it seems a bit arbitrarily by Baltar that he gives NPOM the benefit of doubt with saying scum wouldn't act like he did while he assumes with Ico that he would go as scum after the easy target. I am not getting scummy vibes from Baltar though as I was assuming Baltar went with the angle that Ico wouldn't act as the scum in NPOM's former game, because he wasn't familiar with NPOM. The banter afterwards is tedious, tedious and tedious, on first sight nothing really new came up there.

[Testarossa]

It's past 02:00 Am and I just want to sleep. I am going to save Andres for tomorrow. On first glance I don't really have a problem here, his reads have some substance and look interesting. But I need to look more at it in detail. Only disliked his post regarding Snowblaze as I think his post looked more like shade than Snowblaze's post did.

Since he gets completely ignored, I am not feeling really positive about Alduskkel. Like he ignored most stuff that was going on to drop his vote on NPOM, which might be by placement a critical point (have to reread that part again though, I might have forgotten about the timeline). The remaining comments seemed rather non-committal. Would be interested in Datisi's take on this.

[Testarossa]

eh, pretty null so far? i lowkey forgot he's in the game, and we're early enough where that isn't yet a cause for concern. is there a reason you're specifically looking for my take?

There wasn't much about him and I hoped I would get more from you, since you seem more familiar with him and you seem to have strong opinions on people you are familiar with, might it just be by gut. His comments just felt so minimalistic, admittedly I had a votecount with more Ico votes in mind, so the vote itself isn't really that interesting as I assumed.

i wonder if snowblaze and jankofan are scum together

Why these two though?

[Testarossa]

billy i'll have to review actually, weakest scum pooler for sure, testa just seems to be focusing on the wrong things and their tones reading tryhardy.

I am not sure I got the Billy part right, so you have him in scum without having him reviewed yet? So just a gutread or how did he end up there nonetheless?

What would you consider as wrong things?

[Testarossa]

In a way this persistent Ico wagon is remarkable.

Once it was about to fall apart it got revived again by two slots that just joined. I have no doubt there is at least one scum among the first wagon, maybe now the second, but I am more wondering why scum would be so interested to keep the Ico wagon alive when everything just became more open with everyone scattering with their votes. Would maybe indicate that the two newcomer could be town, unless they wanted to distract from someone, but there wasn't really any major wagon. I am probably more leaning Andres/Baltar here on first glance.

One could argue the Ico wagon has some resistance, which would indicate scum, but then again everyone who is siding with him feels more like town. So kind of feels scum might be in the bystanders and one from the Ico wagon.

[Testarossa]

I am kind of leaning town on NPOM for 440. Like the conclusion he reached there felt like it developed pretty organic going by all of his interactions with Ico. It doesn't feel constructed.

[Testarossa]

or is that just me with the full paranoia *scum must be pushing me at this point* thing?

That's what I meant yesterday. I don't really see why scum would be so interested in pushing you again and again. If you would be scum I feel like there would have been a stronger push on another wagon already.

The fact that no other wagon is really gaining traction indicates to me that scum is just happy with the gamestate and is probably just pretty passive. I see currently at most only one scum in Baltar or Andres. Also helps that I have a weak gut townlean on janko.

I wouldn't be too shocked if most of your fights would have been TvTs.

[Testarossa]

Tbh Snow feels kind of a bit more like defeatist town than scum that is more or less accepting her elimination. But that is more gut.

She has been switching between nulltown and nullscum so far through the whole game, I think I would have joined the wagon at the beginning just to see where it might lead to and Baltar's reasons were good enough, but after the wagon I am not so sure what to think of it. It kind of happened a bit too fast for my liking. But I am a bit at a loss because I am town or null on all on the wagon.

@Andres:
What do you think of Ico's turn onto Snow considering you are both (or were?) scumreading both?

[Testarossa]

Oh well, so that happened. At least this time sooner than later. Since hellbooks is scumreading me too I consider myself as pretty much dead. Going to take a look at my wagon.

[Testarossa]

fun fact: someone calling me dats makes it about 10% more likely i'll get pocketed by them

VOTE: testarossa

Et tu, Datisi?

That's a pity, but very well. Why do you think I might flip red here?

[Testarossa]

I took up Koba's offer to iso Testa and there's a lot of hedging language in there. Try doing a find-in-page highlight of the word "but" and you'll see it's all over the place.

Tryng a language/wording read on someone who isn't native English speaker is a double-edged sword though. Why do you think it indicates scum in my case?

[Testarossa]

Alright I’ll jump on this wagon.

VOTE: Testarossa

I prefer it over Snowblaze so that’s why.

To learn from Ico is to learn to be victorious.

You just assume like that my wagon goes through and put down the decisive vote by yourself? You need to explain that 180 degree turn on me more in detail considering how much you went into detail to townread me before, otherwise I am afraid you might be in for a hellish ride on D2 once I a have flipped.

[Testarossa]

I can get on board with Testarossa.

VOTE: Testarossa

L2 I think?

NPOM: Being all iffy about Ico's willingness to wagon his townreads.

Also NPOM: Yeah, so I can get onboard with a wagon where people wagon their townreads (Andre).

Like I think you are probably town, but you are not making this easy. Why isn't it bothering you here at all?

[Testarossa]

I don't know what to think of Koba. If my Ico and NPOM reads are correct they are basically only after town from my point of view. So can't really townlean here, but not really scum either. I am no good with a read here yet I guess.

Still want to think that janko might be town, because he is toneread on me is along with Datisi's read the most natural read on me so far in this game, that usually comes from people that are actually trying to figure me out. Just wish there would be more to back it up as I was a bit worried that he could be scum going along with Koba. But his reads might have some genuine conviction.

[Testarossa]

A) I don't think Andre said he townreads you, he just said you're the preferable wagon.

There are some good points against you.

Well, as Snow pointed out, he did the last time he gave any read into my direction. Him now going after me just like that feels way too easy than it should. Already thought that his switch from Ico to Snow went a bit too smooth going by his convixtion in his Ico scumread back then.

And those would be?

[Testarossa]

Absolutely null on hellbooks. Feels a little bit reserved, without looking like that, if that make sense, I don't know. Has yet to elaborate what made her feel wary about GB, since she still had (maybe?) problems with him when he started the Snow wagon.

Baltar is a tough one. I am very fond of his posts and can easily be pocketed here, especially because I feel we were on the same wavelength with our reads on the gamestate and I was leaning town on him for that. I actually think his willingness to let Snow get hammered isn't necessarily scummy, I think scum could have easily moved away from the wagon here. At least I think his willingness to win people over for Billy or Snow might have been more town motivated here as they aren't really interesting miselims for scum.

[Testarossa]

Still think the way to go is to eliminate in [Billy, Aldus, hellbooks, Snow] and [Baltar, Andres]. Some more, some less (like Snow, who is probably just town). It's absurd how difficult it is to get pressure on Billy or Aldus, but Snow skyrockets to E-1 in an instant.

I am leaning on Andres as scum over Baltar, the way he moves between wagons smells fishy. Take my symbolic alibi vote: VOTE: Andresvmb

Although NPOM can fall back into that scumpool, because I am less sure about him. But that will more or less depend on his D2 play I guess.

[Testarossa]

Gosh, I can't wait for Billy to weigh in on all this. On D2.

[Testarossa]

Motivation is at a low, so I will just say to hellbooks or whoever else is fine with my elim that they can feel free to hammer me as refuse to claim, of course. I might or might not respond to things addressed to me, depends when I am around next time.

[Testarossa]

Apologies, was on weekend shift and thought I could handle it. In hindsight I should have just gone v/la, totally underestimated the flow of the games on weekends here. Give me a short while, I am roughly 20 pages behind.

[Testarossa]

Caught up despite interruptions. I am town on Koba now, they come out townier of the confrontation with NPOM, I agree with most things they said in that regard. Also think their acting with votes between me, NPOM and bob is less scum indicative here. From my point of view it makes more sense for scum to push my elim through, because once I flip as the flash town counterwagon to Snowbob, that slot will get eliminated in most scenarios on D2, so if bob is town it would make more sense to line us up in the order me, then bob. That ensures two easy miselims.

Normally liking NPOM less now, his 1063 wasn't good and nothing there was anti-town from Koba. I understand Koba and Andres are associating him with me though and NPOM going elsewhere with his vote (Baltar, janko) doesn't really make sense for scumNPOM from my point of view, he could just chill on me without getting into the spotlight like he did. I can see him being scum with bob, however I am still rather leaning town on that slot, so rather more likely townNPOM too.

[Testarossa]

Not liking janko, him backing up why he joined the wagon on me just like that is weak and the disregard for the Snow wagon. I would think if you are townreading Snow and she gets wagoned you would look into that wagon, instead just clinging statically to his Ico/me/NPOM pool with sheeping Koba. I agree with Datisi that his take on NPOM is weird. I actually think it's even the opposite, you are more aware of claims when people get run up when you are scum. Him missing that is nai.

As for bob, my gut said town about Snow when she got ran up. There was the VT/pr claim discussion, I don't really care about claims either unless they have some backup, however intuitevly I feel like Snowscum would have faked a pr here as he she had at least the recent experience to bail out as town pr with a pr claim once she got quickly pushed to E-1. I am so-so on bob's wagon analysis, Baltar has kind of a point here, looking into GB wagon and maybe Ico wagon doesn't strike me as useful, I understand this approach though. I think bob is town, I find myself agreeing with some points he is making. His take on Andres wasn't good though.

However if bob is scum, I think he has to avoid miseliminating me here, because as I said above, if I flip before him, it will basically just be a D2 suicide for scumbob. So why do you think I am town, bob?

[Testarossa]

For now I am cool with this:

VOTE: jankofan


Also @Billy:
Why is bob town?

[Testarossa]

"i think snow!scum would have faked a pr claim"
lol ok

Yes yes, I know. Just my characteristic take on her.

[Testarossa]

I didnt really think snow was scum and the way Bob has come in fits town!Bob. I also am a bit hesitant given how two wagons flashed really fast and a wagon on NPOM can't get off the ground. I also think the way Snow played while you were being wagoned isnt really a scum way to handle that.

This... doesn't really answer my question. Why does the way he got into the game fits to townbob? I actually disagree on your last sentence, as I said, from her point of view as scum it would be better if I don't die unless she just want to make the sacrifice on D2. Baltar also had a good take on it (too tired to look for the post rn).

[Testarossa]

Where are you at on Bob, because this feels like youre at town!Bob? I'm also having trouble seeing how you're getting to Koba town, because isnt this exact thought process that youre outlining for scum what Koba is doing?

Yes to bob.
No, Koba was pulling Andres and janko to a certain extent along (more or less due to their townreads on them) and could have just stayed on my wagon, eventually it might not have dissolved and it might have gone through. Instead they were moving their vote to NPOM, me and then bob once certain things seemed to have pinged them. It looks kind of unnecessary for scum.

[Testarossa]

Why you pressing me on this? Our reads align, so im confused by why you need more details. I drew a different conclusion from the wagon, but here's what I'm confused about. We had two flash wagons in a matter of days with alot of overlap on the people on it. Snow/Bob was first, you were second. Im looking more at wagon composition in drawing my conclusion. I dont see how scum drove one and not the other with as much overlap as was there.

Honestly I'm more confused by you asking for more detail from me on what was obviously more a gut read than anything else (dude had been here for like 5 pages) when my read aligned with yours.

I dont see how from town!Test's perspective, you look at 2 flash wagons with a decent bit of overlap and not think they're scum influenced.

Because our reads align and I am not town on you I am interested in it. It didn't looked to me like a gut read with meaning that his entrance fits into his town persona sounded to me like you know more about him. Anyway no use in hairsplitting either.

I don't know how you reach that last conclusion. Literally half of my wagon ended up on bob, why do you think I am avoiding that wagon and even joined the counterwagon? (my reads on bob and janko aside)

[Testarossa]

@Andres:
Yeah, I am not disagreeing with that. It all depends now on what bob is going to flip.

Also hammer on bob already happened by NPOM, no?

[Testarossa]

Ah yeah, he is only at six votes. Yeah, that's correct then.

[Testarossa]

Only short in time today, will try to barf my thoughts into the thread.

GB kill isn't really giving much away. Was only scumread by hellbooks, so maybe they assumed there wasn't much to do with that slot and they chickened out out going for universally townread Datisi (protectives). Plus it's low info concerning the wagons or connections with other players.

There was once an early D1 wagon with 4 votes on him with Aldus, Snow, NPOM and hellbooks which could beg the question how likely it is for scum to hop on an early wagon on town. However only hellbook's vote there was actually serious. Two of these four names could fit very well into my suspect pool though.

Or it really was just a poor PR shot.

[Testarossa]

Sorry, that one is bigger, we basically had four major wagons on D1, which looked at peak (E-1) like this:

Snow: GB, Baltar, Datisi, Ico, hellbooks, Koba
Testa: Koba, Datisi, Aldus, Andres, NPOM, janko
bob: Baltar, hellbooks, Andres, janko, NPOM, (Koba)
janko: Datisi, bob, Testa, Ico, Billy, GB, Aldus

Noticeable is that Datisi was basically on all major wagons besides the second bob wagon and left those wagons after the claim was out or it was made clear that there is no interest to claim. I think her transition from me to janko was pretty consistent with her reads though and the way everything happened with janko voting, so I still think she is town, even if that read got a small dent here.

It's also remarkable that everyone has voted for bob at this point besides, me, Billy and Aldus. Which makes the assumption that he is just town to me a bit more likely unless there is some serious bussing at play. I am also biased with my point of view as I know that I am town, almost all of my wagon ultimately ended up on bob (Koba, NPOM, Andres, janko). janko was town, but I doubt the other three are all town. One scum is in them, I am confident in that.

NPOM and Andres also were also on the first Ico wagon (4 votes), so these always show up if there is a bigger wagon, so I am more inclined to look into these two. I need to reread Koba too, because I am not really remembering the timeline there, I am more inclined to think that they are just triggerhappy town.

[Testarossa]

If I assume with bob all wagons were town, then I think scum have scattered across the wagons. Going by the nk I suspect only one on the janko wagon. Leaning on Aldus intuitively as my scumread on Billy has regressed, need to review him as there were still some posts by Billy that felt tonally off/not genuine. What is making so confident in Billy being town @ bob?

[Testarossa]

I don't really believe in scum bobot.

Playing with it hypothetically though, I doubt all three scum were on the janko wagon. Ico was on the Snow wagon with his backstab and if Snow would have flipped red and people would have looked for a bus Ico's vote is literally the first one people look into. I think Datisi is town, leaving Billy/Aldus. Ok, these actually work.

However the nk was on the janko wagon, so if all three were there they would be sawing the very same branch, they are sitting on. (they have to assume that possible investigatives would also target that wagon)

So someone would have bussed the hell out of Snow/bob. Baltar isn't playing around, he wants him dead af, doesn't feel like a bus.
Koba would have bussed Snow (like Ico) into a worthless VT claim (so doubt too), leaving Andres/NPOM again. So kind of overlapping with bobtown scenario. But again both are going straight for bob's head on D2. What's the big payoff for the bus here? They all were on me (town) and could have switched to janko (town), but instead decided to bus again when everything was so close? I am not getting it.

[Testarossa]

u cant nk people who are acum

I still believe in her.

[Testarossa]

Why is logic towny testa?

Was this regarding Datisi?

Of course scum could act logically too, I just feel it wasn't necessary to start the fight with janko, when she could have just sit it out on my wagon where others would in first place get the blame if would have went through.

[Testarossa]

I am kind of between the doors with heading off to work, but the whole claim situation makes me excited. lol
There are some things, that I want to be clarified.

Fine.

I'm a PT cop. I investigated George Bailey last night. Got no result because he died. Was trying to root out the scum who was sitting in the background.

Tbf my initial gut reaction is, that this is bs. Ascetic etc. is basically an admission of guilt, so it would make sense to gamble on it being a gambit by Datisi or play the Roleblocker/whatever card. PT Cop seems to be playing up to the Neighborizer claim and basically we will confirm it sooner or later, because if there are no Masons or Neighbors in this setup, that would make the PT Cop an ungated Cop and I doubt that would be the case.

Second, you literally got "no result"? According to the wiki a PT Cop should receive "no access" if he targets a person without PT access, no result only shows up when blocked, targeting ascetic or similar. GB dying has no influence on this.

[Testarossa]

why would you check georgebailey? when you could've checked bob? and did you crumb anywhere?

Didn't breadcrumb. Not really my style.

Picked GB because I figured I could easily still get scum!Bob yeeted after janko flipped green. Seemed pointless to waste my cop there when I could catch 2 scum in one day

Why GB and not anyone else on the janko wagon? You had Billy and NPOM as possible partners for Snow/bob yesterday and your reads might have changed (at least regarding Billy as I figure by one of your posts yesterday).

I need those questions answered, because tbh I find your claim hard to swallow, even although we are probably going through with bob at this point.

Finally, I find it weird that according to your first D2 post 1782 you thought the kill was weird and that you would need to reread GB's iso to see what his thoughts were. Like surely you had some thoughts when you were targeting him last night? I mean that man has no 473 posts, but merely 22 posts that aren't even walls. I mean we are giving you most likely the benefit of doubt, but phew, consistent looks different.

[Testarossa]

Only scenario where this makes sense is if scum had a voyeur parked on Baltar since he was doing the kill to see what roles targeted him and saw that tracker was the result. Now of course thats a possibility, and my paranoid brain is triggered a bit by how he responded to Datisi's original claim. Like, "maybe you were rolestopped or something." But thats probably paranoid because it clearly didn't go through since he wasn't in a neighborhood. Also, immediately jumping to claiming his N1 action makes it feel like he may have known a tracker result was coming. But again, given that Dats was demanding a claim it may have been in response to that.

I actually think his behaviour when confronted by Datisi is alright, it's basically the way someone would normally react when a false guilty is claimed on them and they think the person doing that isn't scum. Sure, Voyeur can be possible and maybe he could act that way as scum via instinct. I wouldn't read too much into that reaction.

The only really major trust issue for me here is that he claimed his result on GB in a wrong way, this is for me a huge red flag and I am legit confused no one cares about it. I mean he can't get no result, because he wasn't blocked, we know that due to Datisi. GB wasn't ascetic or also can't have been rolestopped, otherwise the kill wouldn't have gone through unless there is a Strongman, but that's where it is starting to get ridiculous.

Is it just how you play it out here with procrastinating on such flaws and I am just too harsh on it? Because from where I am from, we were... "less nice" with such claims and I think I am pretty moderate here.

[Testarossa]

Ico and Tess, you opposed to yeeting Bob today?

The most frustrating thing is, that today the exact same two sides are forming up like yesterday. The same bob wagon. And basically janko wagon on NPOM (or not voting). I have caught myself thinking to kick the table leg just for shit and giggles and go for bob just to resolve that situation. bob's play has been pretty lackluster so far on D2 which might give me vibes of a scum that is simply resigning, because he knows his partner(s) are hardbussing him no matter what, although I absolutely don't get why. At least in comparision with his town and scum games that I skimmed.

I just don't know though. It usually indicates town when literally almost the whole playerlist has been pushing for his elim at one point and I think I pointed already out why from my point of view it is hard to believe. Who are you scumreading besides bob? Is it just Billy/Aldu then? Feels unlikely. Talk to me about that, then we may or may not get somewhere.

[Testarossa]

Actually, my read on Billy softened quite a bit. I said as much I believe. NPOM is scummy to me, but also says stupid shit. I fully expect him to get resolved before the end of the game.

If you look at the janko wagon, you have obv scum Bob early on and camped there to save his bacon. The next most obvious scum slots on that wagon are either GB or Aldus. I didn't find Aldus' hammer scummy (perhaps even townie given it was needed to advance the game). GB made a ton of sense to investigate.

Fair enough, I think I can dig this answer. Why weren't you considering me though? You could have gained a lot of information with that about the wagon situation and the wagon that was pushing bob with you. Secretly I just wish you would have targeted NPOM though.

[Testarossa]

my solve has evolved into : aldu / hellbooks / ico

Is it with Aldu just about the hammer thing or also something else? I have him in my poe too, however everytime I read through his iso I come out at true neutral and don't really know what to make out of it.

What is giving you bad vibes about hellbooks?

[Testarossa]

NPOM is all over the place with his reads. The Datisi/Baltar thing is so whack, combined with his voting behaviour I can't even tell what he is really up to. It looks almost too much kamikaze for scum, I actually agree with that with hellbooks.

Aldus, who are you scumreading? I get it that you have me and NPOM? Anything else?

[Testarossa]

I am a bit salty that my meta dive on Billy last night was all for nothing. Whatever, so Datisi is conftown, I think this is pretty much obvious.

Existence of Masons gives Baltar some validity that a PT Cop is in the game. Question is just which alignment. Since he claims to have a positive result, which is apparently not Datisi, he will most likely get verified anyway. However I second Andres' request to Baltar. Doubt there is a neighborhood, these usually can't keep it long enough in their pants and have the urgent need to claim within the first two days for some reason.

It would be hilarious though, if Baltar was just scum carrying out the nk and the whole claim situation between him and Datisi were just pseudo claims based on their buddies night actions.

[Testarossa]

open question to the table: did anyone go from scumreading billy day one to *not* doing that day two? or like suspiciously avoiding him? if he got rolecopped, and they knew he was a mason, i doubt scum was gonna try to push on him... but that still assumes a rolecop which we can't know for certain...

I think it were only me and Baltar who were scumreading him on D1? Baltar's read softened up on D1 in 1113. My scumread regressed on D2 in 1856, because I liked most of his posts + my wagon analysis made it less likely. Don't know if anyone else had an open scumread on Billy.

[Testarossa]

Still think there was probably only one scum on the janko D1 wagon. From my point of view only Ico and Aldus are left. Unless it's Koba, but I am less confident there.

I already noticed yesterday that the wagon compositions on the D2 wagons (or non-voters) were basically the same compositions as on D1. Only noticeable changes are Ico and Koba actually being on bob. I am inclined to say that this fact makes Ico more likely town, because otherwise it would mean that probably the whole scum team would have piled up on bob.

There is a scenario where Ico could be scum, but then it would have to be with NPOM, because Ico's vote moved bob to 5 votes vs 3 votes on NPOM, with me, bob and Koba potentially being left and at least in bob's and my case it would have been more likely to expect that they end up on NPOM than bob. Koba is so-so, need to reread their D2. If NPOM is scum however I doubt scum leave the hammer to them. Going by the interactions between Ico and NPOM and D1 I don't think they are both scum though.

[Testarossa]

Actually not sure if I can rule out Ico and Aldus together, because Ico was against an Aldus wagon (can't remember why though, need to reread too). I still doubt that scum kills on janko wagon N1 and also targets with an investigative (if theory about scum investigative is true) on the same wagon, when there are more than one scum on it. Although the latter point is more speculative and doesn't necessarily have to do something with it. Eh.

By gut I would also say that the fact that the wagon compositions were almost identical on D2, that could suggest that NPOM is town too as scum might have been happy with him as counterwagon to bob. But it's kind of tied to Aldus, because if Aldus is town the wagon on NPOM was all town (only Koba questionable then). Hm.

Might have some flaws, because I am only doing the wagon analysis off the top of my head and not assuming bussing. Basically it depends now on whom Baltar has a positive result. From there on it will be easier to work with.

[Testarossa]

testa, do you have any conclusions written from that metadive?

No, because I did it during N2.

I was mostly looking into his games, because I wasn't sure if his frustration posts about NPOM were genuine and some minor details about him were pinging me where I couldn't tell if he was really confused or just defensive. (fyi the conclusion was, that he seemed to show this kind of behaviour rather as town than scum)

[Testarossa]

testa if you could like

obvtown or something

that would be great

What am I, a robot that acts as you wish when you push on a button? It's not up to me if I am obvtown to you, I just do my stuff and the rest is up to you.

[Testarossa]

testa

open hand/shotgun reads

who's the scumteam/PoE for you right now?

Aldus, hellbooks, Andres/Koba.

NPOM is atm more of a wild card to me, need to reread his interactions with those above. Tbh was originally having Baltar in this poe, was not expecting him with coming in with a positive result.

[Testarossa]

Inbefore Baltar gets next night again a guilty and you guys reveal there is actually a fourth Mason.

Baltar's role looks pretty weak with this (until the cat is out og the bag of course). I am unsure about the setup tbh. Are there comparable games with three Masons?

[Testarossa]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=81560

this is the one i pulled up in mason chat earlier. i haven't yet gone to check if there are any more.

considering we have a full pt cop AND a tracker, scum definitely has counterplay. rolecop makes sense.

Thank you, that's a good example.

I was on the edge if a scum PT Cop would be a fitting counter to hunt for the Masons. But as weak investigative to three conftowns it seems to work too. And Billy kill highly suggests Rolecop like you already assumed.

Yes, in this case I am inclined to agree with you that if there is no further town power, then we leave Baltar doing his stuff as now his guilties should really be hard guilties.

[Testarossa]

Considering I am now down to a poe of Aldus, Andres, NPOM and Koba the current situation is a bit curious. It can't be that easy with finding the townie in them with literally three of these piling up on Andres?

I am pretty torn here, because the only things that I find remarkable scummy about Andres are two posts/lines from D2 where he doubled down on the bob push like it seemed he wanted to get that one through, no matter what. Have to look who were the counterwagon at that time (NPOM or Aldus). Otherwise it was noticeable that he allies up with one certain player on any major pushes (Baltar, Koba, in a way bob today), however this can as well just be the way he plays when he trusts a townread well enough (plus he usually has enough to back his pushes up by himself, so no sheeping).

I don't know if I am falling for some pocketing here though, because I feel he isn't playing optimally as scum here with cutting down his poe to three people and coming out with a strong townread on me and also putting Ico in the townbin as once the townie in his 3p poe gets eliminated he is in an awkward position in elo. Scum have to keep their poe wide enough open.

I believe the townie in my poe is among Andres/NPOM (even although the latter never got ran up that hard, he is always constantly suspected by almost everyone), intuitively I am thinking that Aldus might be the best shot today. Need to finally reread all their interactions tonight to judge properly here.

[Testarossa]

Also with hellbooks being conftown Ico is imo completely out of my poe for good (she was kind of an allrounder).

Ico/Koba interactions simply don't look like SvS, especially right after Koba joined the game.

Ico/NPOM is way too pedantic and I think Ico was running almost out of patience at some point, I seriously doubt they would go that far for SvS interactions.

Ico/Andres is admittedly more difficult, because it got never as heated as in comparision to the other two. Could be SvS, but Andres put a lot of effort into that push back then and his posts had this mocking, sarcastic tone that you have when you are absolutely convinced that you are on the right track with seeing your opponent flail. Felt at least pretty real to me, so probably no SvS either and maybe indicating Andres as town.

Ico only works with Aldus, but that would still lack the third one. Can only see Andres as fitting at most and I am rather doubting it. If Aldus is town I can't see Ico being scum with two of these three above as this would mean Ico would have spent a good part of D1 with fighting his own team. So into the townbin with Ico, cap on it and nailing it down.

[Testarossa]

aldus/koba/testa?????????

does that make any lick of sense??????????????

does anything make any fuvking sense in this game?????

Had no time for that earlier. In short: No.

I know I am pedantic with that, just look at my wagon in 2875. By poe I must have been bussed by both partners. Ask yourself the mother of questions: Why?

You got townSnow at E-1, I wasn't widely townread, still was only scumread by hellbooks and janko, still good position for me, if scum. Why flushing this down the toilet? Koba derails Snowagon, starts wagon on me and pushes for it, Aldus and Andres just hop on it, knowing that janko and hell might vote there. Why pushing me into a situation where I seriously would need to claim when there was just a town miselim close with almost all town wagon? (if I would stick to site meta lol)

Can't really argue against it when you pair me up with NPOM besides poor bussing then, otherwise I am not seeing the great scum plan here. Me and Koba are never a team here.

[Testarossa]

... or writing too much, which makes me Scum.

Yeahaha, welcome to this site of this game.

[Testarossa]

I agree with you for the most part except I don't think Test is optimal elim for today.

Why not? I think your poe is Ico, me and one of Aldus/Andres, leaning Andres. How does it matter for you if you determine who is scum between Aldus and Andres?

[Testarossa]

Reading through NPOM's ISO is like the most brutal rollercoaster ride I ever had. Can't even remember the last time I switched over a dozen times between eliminate and not eliminate on one player. Just why couldn't you have just gone there, Baltar?

I just want to vote him because he was pushing the narrative on D2 that the janko wagon was scum driven and thus keeping attention from bobwagon away. I generally didn't liked his D2, for most of the day he was suspecting town slots. But some takes were just

so

whack. And that progression from 2324 and 2344 to that hammer in 2363. Jfc

[Testarossa]

Something is fishy about the ending of D2.

bobwagon stalls, but is ultimately about to go through and NPOM existed as counterwagon. Then Datisi starts the Alduswagon and once it hit three votes (and Datisi backs off) the sudden swift from Koba and NPOM to bob and hammering him, even although Koba was announcing they want to hammer. Can Aldus/Koba/??? work? bob was also thinking as NPOM that Aldus/Andres is not SvS based on their interaction about Ico, I am just not finding the interaction he meant. If their D3 skirmish is no bussing then it would leave NPOM as third.

[Testarossa]

From my point of view Aldus is the only unknown slot that always stayed away from the bobwagon (and I have Ico as town). If Aldus is town this would mean that all three scum must have piled upon bob on D2. This would imply that the NPOM counterwagon urged them to to get the bob elim through. If Aldus is scum the crucial vc was this:

bob3141 (3): Andresvmb, VP Baltar, NoPowerOverMe
NoPowerOverMe (3): Billy Pilgrim, Datisi, Alduskkel
Hellbooks (1): DkKoba
Not Voting (4): hellbooks, bob3141, Testarossa, Iconeum

Aldus tied NPOM with bob. He could have counted on hell and Koba voting bob and Ico has also shown approval for a bob elim before. So a bus could have been safe and I kind of think, if scum knew Billy was a Mason, I can imagine at least one scum would side with the Mason. Works with townNPOM too, which leads to Aldus/Andres again, which I am not really feeling by D3 interactions.

[Testarossa]

I am not really seeing Aldus/NPOM/Andres, so basically Koba is in all my scum teams and would be the safest vote for me. Isn't happening today though.

I need to reread a bit about Andres if it looks plausible how he came around with townreading me. However I am not really getting why he would get bussed here.

It's Aldus/NPOM for me today. So fuck it, I call it a day.

VOTE: NoPowerOverMe

[Testarossa]

@Ico:
Why do you think that Aldus is town or at least not scum? Just by your poe?

[Testarossa]

I mean I wouldn't even need to set up anything here. I have a poe of four people. If one of these flips town the last three are literally auto lockscum from my point of view, so...?

[Testarossa]

whats ur poe again? -koba

Kill all hydras.

Aldus, NPOM, you, Andres.

I made my point why I am not seeing Ico as scum, so it literally leaves you four.

[Testarossa]

@Baltar:
Wait, I think you are mixing there something up. I never actively pushed Datisi? I was townreading him through the whole game. My read only weakened a bit after noting that he were on most major D1 wagons that I knew or thought of town (me, Snow, janko) and still doubled down in the same post on my townread.

I don't think my wagon analysis is that incorrect (I mean Andres/NPOM were on most major wagons with GB, Ico, me, bob), but I figure it's no use, we will see once the game is resolved.
Still I think you should consider it at least regarding my wagon. I won't be mad if you are convinced enough due to other reasons, just at least go it through. Who do you think are my partners? Why does this wagon happen in a gamestate where I had more townreads than scumreads and no one were minding me? Like if you think Andres and NPOM panicbussed me there, ok, that's the only team where I could see why you would think so.

[Testarossa]

Tess - I will reread your interaction with Datisi again today. I only had about 30 mins of spare time yesterday to reread all three of you and go over all the vote counts again. There's a possibility I misread something. In the meantime, can you explain why you didn't vote at all D2? Why not push for another wagon if you thought Bob was going to flip town?

I am afraid I can't give you a satisfying answer here. I will try though.

For one it threw me off that bob/NPOM situation was mirroring the vote situation from D1, which made me pause and wonder if things were just going again in scum's way. Didn't helped that NPOM's takes were too crazy for my taste (you & Datisi as scum), that I got unsure there. And tbf I was resigning anyway, because it became apparent that most people were fine with bob exe and I am not the kind of player to pull others away anyway. And next time I logged in I already had the mod pm that it's N2.

Also I was more focussed on you than you probably realized. I am used to it if there is a claim and it has major flaws then it means to kill said player off, because most likely bs. Basically with my townreads saying not to do so and site meta seemingly being different here that was what was stopping me from simply going deathtunnel on you, which I would have normally done. It's a mindset thing i guess.

[Testarossa]

1. I was questioning you and and had yet to wait for answers.

2. If I know a vote has no effect, because people don't go there out of principle, then it is a meaningless vote.

[Testarossa]

VOTE: Alduskkel

[Testarossa]

Idk. That's a very scummy mindset though isn't it? Scum are the ones that benefit from letting a town elim go through with no real counter. I'm not saying I would expect Tess to White Knight Bob, but to not push an alternative you think was better? I have hard time getting into that mindset from a town perspective

I mean I get why you think so, however that's just looking at it from one side. It might look weird as town, but wouldn't it look also pretty weird as scum?

There would be no need to get doubts on NPOM. If he is town just vote, it was clear that bob would go through anyway by the last time I was around on D2. Either bob goes down and I was on the counterwagon, which I could line up as next mis-exe (it's not that hard with NPOM), or NPOM eats rope before bob, then it's one townie less and most of the bobwagon would probably be after him on D3 again.

If NPOM would be my partner, even better. Would have been a good timing for a good bus to distance, even if bob would have voted there bob would still most likely have ended up as exe. Would even have had an opening to come up with a turnaround of my read on Billy and follow him on the NPOM wagon.

Like there would have been more than enough better possibilities for me to play that out as scum.

[Testarossa]

@Aldus:
I figure you were still scumreading me throughout the game also on D2, yes? I take that by you asking Koba why they came (for whatever reasons) around townreading me for D2 that you had a different opinion.

Why were you never pushing for me or trying to interact with me on D2? I mean you were scumreading me on D1 and pushed for me. Yet once janko flipped town, who was the counterwagon to my wagon (together with revival of bobwagon, whom you thought to be town) there never really came much from you regarding me on D2. I think if you were genuinely scumreading me the outcome of D1 should have made you particular suspicious about me as I was even one of the earlier votes on the jankowagon.

[Testarossa]

that's like... my "chaotic anti-town townie that vultures are circling around and at some point will definitely start being pushed by scum" read...

someone did a metadive of him, right? testa, was it you? does he act like this as scum too?

I did that on D1, however I was more looking for specific things like reaction to early pressure etc. I didn't read the games in a whole or his interactions. By what I roughly remember he was less erratic and less contradictory in his reads and voting though. That's off the top of my head though, so maybe you verfiy that for yourself later.

[Testarossa]

i mean i was the lone vote on andres and no one is voting NPOM either...

I mean, including me, there have been three people on NPOM today and somehow everyone moved away from him. (me and Aldus at least didn't have much of a choice as it became a me vs Aldus and it's not like we were townreading each other, although my scumread is mostly based on poe and his treatment of my slot during D2)

I actually agree with all your reasons about NPOM and with my flip it will just pile up, so we may come to the point that it can't be overseen.

[Testarossa]

Tbh you have my consent for my exe today. This feels pretty similar to the bob situation on D2 and the progress on my Billy read parallel to the likely scum nightaction is a pretty damning and unlucky coincidence that is hanging over me like the Sword of Damocles for the rest of the game where I can't say much but "ill luck". If we would misfire outside of me I will be the designed mis-exe in 9 of 10 scenarios tomorrow in elo, which wouldn't be that similar in other cases, so I consider the glass as half-full.

So for all I care, send me off @Datisi/hell, unless you need to talk about something, although I think deadline is less than one day now and I won't be around much tomorrow due to work. So no point in dragging this out.

[Testarossa]

Some thoughts regarding Andres.

If he is scum and got genuinely bussed I think Aldus is the only one who would gain something here, Koba is probably in the safest spot within the poe (unless you consider Ico as part of it) and NPOM, let's be real, even a bus wouldn't redeem that much here. Could have just been some safe distancing while they knew it could come down to me or Aldus anyway. Not sure if scumAndres would feel the need to go for NPOM first to tun to Aldus ultimately.

I also think Andres and Koba aren't a team due to D1 associations as Andres "teamed up" with Koba strongly referring to them when they were reviving the Ico wagon again and when the push on me happened. I would think you are more concerned to not look too much like a team on D1.

He is probably more likely town in the poe, but I wish I could be more certain on that. Yeah, not super helpful, whatever.

[Testarossa]

Well, excuse me, I will just politely ask next time when I am allowed to post.

Anyway, good luck tomorrow.

[Testarossa]

For what it is worth in twilight: I was legit town.

Had my last say already. So, yeah.

[Testarossa]

I just love how Ico created a notes pt just to vent and ending up with the drunken enlightenment.

[Testarossa]

Anyway gg everyone! Fun game with a fun group to play with.

As I already said in the dead pt, really well done by Andres (and Ico) to engage Aldus and NPOM in 1v1s in elo and leaving Baltar alone, caught them quite off guard.

Tough game for Baltar, getting stuck into an early claim is hard, especially if there is "just" Masons as town power. Maybe you would have had more wiggle room with limiting your claim with a modifier. Although I think it wouldn't have changed that much ultimately.

[Testarossa]

OMG, I totally forgot about this! I was seriously freaking out because you caught my lie there. Datisi picked up on it a little later too, but no one really forced me to comment on my active avoidance of it. I really did not have a good answer and would have been fumbling if pressed on it.

Haha, after reading your D2 in the scum pt I just realize how nervous you actually were. Kind of explains what was so odd with ending D2 so abruptly.

I was absolutely expecting you coming in on D3 with an inno or again no result and then the push would have come, but instead coming in with a correct guilty threw me off. Good guess by Aldus.

[Testarossa]

Aldus -- what are your thoughts on night actions?

I'm happy to do the kill. Doubt I'll get tracked

This didn't aged well though. It had to be.