Open 805 Panic Room Day 1

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: D&D >:(

[Infinity 324]

i may or may not be harkening back to my old wallposting style

:O skitter is here to revive the lost art of wallposting

[Infinity 324]

Let’s add a dungeons and dragons hydra to make it ultra confusing

Darkness & Destruction

[Infinity 324]

i may or may not be harkening back to my old wallposting style

:O skitter is here to revive the lost art of wallposting

scummy

VOTE: infinity

?

[Infinity 324]

Hi!

What’s wrong the infinity votes?

Am I scummy?

Also lol yvotta

Skitter do you have meta on yvotta?

[Infinity 324]

I'm skeptical of "this person is vibing in the early game therefore they're town" reads, they may work for some people but in general I haven't found them to be accurate.

[Infinity 324]

Infinity are u talking abt my lilith read or my yycotta read?

Your yyotta read

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: daenerys

[Infinity 324]

I'm not sure what about 54 was town indicative then.

[Infinity 324]

Gc why *did* u vote infinity?

Infinity what do u think of my lilith read btw?

~ Skitter

Fine, I think the thought "lilith specifically wouldn't be so happy at gamestart if scum" makes sense if you know lilith

GC, it was a legit question

[Infinity 324]

Hmm, skitter claiming credit for generating discussion felt towny to me somehow.

[Infinity 324]

I don’t really think skitter came off as defensive, maybe like.. confused that infinity assumed a reason for her read that wasn’t true and wasn’t stated. Can we instead talk about why shadowslug seems to think her response is “annoyed in a defensive way”?

- Daenerys

I don't think it's AI (for shadow)

[Infinity 324]

Shadow, why was lilith saying "can we talk about" in 116 scummy but murder saying "can we talk about skitter" not?

[Infinity 324]

Why is it NAI in this case?

Just cause I see how someone could think that

[Infinity 324]

Why is it NAI in this case?

Just cause I see how someone could think that

Why specifically for shadow, as your post seems to imply?

Can you respond to my second question as well?

- Daenerys

I was just trying to make it clear who I was talking about

I'll respond to the second question once shadow answers 142

[Infinity 324]

Shadow, why was lilith saying "can we talk about" in 116 scummy but murder saying "can we talk about skitter" not?

Missed this

Uhh I missed this actually, but I don't mind Murder since he thinks there might be value in pushing skitter a bit and seemed content with letting that play out and didn't like you guys switching focus

I like shadow for town, this post and 149 feel like trying to explain gut reads

@lilith 121 is maybe slightly scum-indicative in general, cause it makes sense for scum to lash back there, but eh

[Infinity 324]

this post and 149 feel like trying to explain gut reads

To explain this better, I feel like scum would feel more obligated to address the apparent "contradiction" I brought up in 142 but instead he's just saying what he thinks

Using words gang

[Infinity 324]

Don’t see how 154 isn’t exactly what you said it isn’t.

I don’t think 154 is indicative either way but I’m not seeing how it assuages concerns.

The best way I can explain it is that it's framed as "here's what I thought about murder" and not "here's why I'm not contradicting myself"

[Infinity 324]

sorry, I guess this was not very clear. when I said "oh he fixed it by voting me," that was a joke. his revoting on me seemed "serious." did infinity ever clarify himself?

It was never serious, I just didn't have a good place for my vote

UNVOTE:

[Infinity 324]

{GC, PP, Murderkitten} is the bloc I currently prefer never be hooded* not necessarily that I find every member in the bloc scummy as of now.

-Dumbass

Wat the heck is hooded

If mafia bomb dies does mafia goon also die if they aren't in the hood

Newbie

Slug promotes to a strong townread now!

*to me, gotta discuss with Skitz

-Dumbass

Agreed

[Infinity 324]

Tbh I find infinity’s post more concerning than skitter’s
Felt like it was making skitter’s yyotta read into something it wasn’t

I mean, now that skitter described it, is "comfortable" really that much different from "vibing"? I still feel like I was talking about something adjacent to what skitter's read was

[Infinity 324]

What will happen if the goon is recruited?

Everyone outside the hood dies, and it turns nightless.
The people in the hood would have to find and vote out the goon(s) who managed to squirm in.

[Also I think tr on Salsabil for the slip]

-Dumbass

I thought that was only when the bomb dies?

[Infinity 324]

Penguin do you have reads?

[Infinity 324]

It feels naive to TR skitter this early, but I'm gonna do so anyway.

[Infinity 324]

(skitter is in dumb & dumber)

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: GC

GC keeps pinging me, I guess it doesn't feel like there's genuine scumhunting underneath his caginess?

Shadow, I feel like that would be scummy if anything? (Newbscum are more likely to be lost/confused I think) Though the slip was probably genuine.

[Infinity 324]

I think there could be a benefit to scum appearing lost and confused--people might give them the benefit of the town, and it's not a scumtell I've seen people use often.

Cakez do you still SR shadow on this page? The reasoning feels very genuine here, 187 felt like he thought he caught scum, and he also townslipped.

[Infinity 324]

benefit of the town

benefit of the doubt*

[Infinity 324]

Murder what do you think of GC atp? I lean town on penguin for not trying to look town

[Infinity 324]

I'm going to vote here instead though because NM.

?

[Infinity 324]

ignores my interaction with murdercat so he can be have some sort of defense

He addressed the "wanting to be on a miselim wagon" and "no reason to unvote" points so what exactly is he ignoring here?

[Infinity 324]

I unvoted infinity cos I thought 5 votes equaled a hammer btw. I don't think that Infinity post i quoted was even that scummy either, just an in the moment gut read thing.

This is what I meant, it may not have satisfied you but /shrug

Wrt the other thing, I'll wait for shadow to respond I guess. But this push feels much more superficial to me

[Infinity 324]

meanwhile

VOTE: Gamma

Bad vote

MURDERCAT your play feels kinda flat rn
what's up?

Murder's play always feels flat until he hits the towny button. That said, I'm leaning town on him atm.

Murder what are you seeing with yyotta?

[Infinity 324]

@infinity please explain reason for stating townread on skitter

- Daenerys

Besides general vibes, there were a couple spots where she felt self-centered--not in an obnoxious way, but in a way that's looking at the game through her own lens. Like when she claimed credit for starting conversation around the votes on me, and when she said she expected me to trust her read on you (which, yeah, I do). It's something I haven't seen even good scum fake very often.

[Infinity 324]

Gamma isn't trying to look town and is mostly just doing his own thing

[Infinity 324]

It's partly a meta read. From what I've seen of his scumgame, he asks lots of questions and posts lots of text to get TRed. I also just think not trying to look town is towny esp in a setup where scum want to get into the hood.

[Infinity 324]

Yeah I remember misreading cakez a lot when I used to play with him back in the day, my read on daenerys & dragons will mostly be based on lilith's play + skitter's opinion

[Infinity 324]

And they're leaning town now, don't remember if I said that

[Infinity 324]

I don't see how penguin is scummy? It mostly seems like he isn't playing

[Infinity 324]

not sure if I am townreading skitter, I think I saw one thing that struck me as towny, but I don’t really like auro’s posts

- Daenerys

What about them don't you like?

[Infinity 324]

Pt 2. to appear towny? To make the other slot look scummier?

and have I gained any of those things?

- Daenerys

Yes lol, I think you look very towny after that interaction

Auro is weird and cagey, but I can't make much AI out of him.

[Infinity 324]

Thoughts on my thoughts that {Salsabil, Shadow} are strong townreads?

I certainly agree on shadow, salsabil's actual content has been scummy to be but I buy the townslip.

[Infinity 324]

I think newbscum is more likely to be lost/confused in the early game than newbtown, she's also been asking a bunch of questions that haven't really led anywhere yet.

[Infinity 324]

Fwiw, GC still keeps pinging me, though there isn't much else I can articulate.

[Infinity 324]

@lilith I see what you mean, for me I just didn't understand auro so I didn't get anything AI out of it. Have you played with auro enough to distinguish between him being confusing as town vs. scum?

[Infinity 324]

There are things I can't talk about which are influencing my TR on lilith here too.

PEdit: ok

[Infinity 324]

@shadow Well lilith was confused about whether flavor and notsci were in the game, and auro said that was posturing. Like lilith, I was confused about what advantage scum!lilith would get from doing that (how would it make her look towny/someone else look scummy?). He also didn't readily explain his POV. I disagree with lilith that it was necessarily scum-indicative, but I'd like auro to explain his reasoning in more depth

[Infinity 324]

@whoever is interested: skitter is within top 3 players onsite with ability to read me. probably top 1 if not close to it. she has crazy accuracy on me. therefore I will consider scumreading me a scumclaim, from her specifically.

This is good context actually, thanks. I was confused about why everyone was accepting skitter's read on you when like, skitter might not be town?

I mean, she's likely forced to read lilith correctly anyway if scum, because it looks sus if she misreads her. Them being scum together is unlikely by stats, and I get the sense that lilith is relatively easy to read in general. Which is why it's odd that I seem to disagree with skitter on lilith's alignment atm. Like, being prickly/antagonistic about an SR on you and channeling that energy into aggressively questioning the person who SRs you is strongly indicative of towny OMGUS imo.

I don't have a read on yyotta atm

[Infinity 324]

Hope you feel better lilith

[Infinity 324]

Subject: TM 2021 - Black Flag Nightless

Thank you everyone for playing. Congrats to the winners, you have earned a point for your team in Team Mafia 2021!

Even though this game has ended, Team Mafia 2021 is still an ongoing game. You may continue to communicate with your teammates as they play their respective Team Mafia games. If you have any questions about this game, you can tag me in your team Discords or send me a PM.

This thread will remain locked until the conclusion of Team Mafia. The Mafia PT will remain private as well. Once Team Mafia has concluded, we will unlock all the game threads and release all PTs.

[Infinity 324]

GC was talking about shadow but like. He's not engaging with people who disagree with him on shadow, he's just tunneled on obvtown because he has no way to walk it back. He also has no reaction to the SRs on him and townies usually hate it when I SR them, whereas scum know that my gut read is valid. He isn't town

[Infinity 324]

GC was talking about shadow but like. He's not engaging with people who disagree with him on shadow, he's just tunneled on obvtown because he has no way to walk it back. He also has no reaction to the SRs on him and townies usually hate it when I SR them, whereas scum know that my gut read is valid. He isn't town

Feeding a baby at 4AM and got nothing to do but stew on just how bad of a take this is.

“Tunneled but no way to walk it back” - tunneling isn’t AI; your suggestion that I should want to walk it back implies that I should know that I’m wrong about shadow, which either is a slip from scum you or pretty big ego flex about your assuredness in reading shadow.

“Town usually hate it when I SR them” - I cannot express enough how comically unsound a rule about how players sometimes react to your bad reads is. You’re comparing my reaction to other players meta (bad) that isn’t even a uniform course of action (double bad)—which means I am also acting like those town players who don’t get bent out of shape over your wrong alignment reads of them

Wrt shadow, my problem wasn't that you have an SR that I disagree with, the problem is that you seem too content to let it sit when he's pretty TRed. Like when I first TRed shadow you were like "ok cool" and didn't pursue it further, and then skitter asked you about shadow again recently and you just say you were still SRing him but nothing else.

For the second part, ok but I don't expect every town to get bent out of shape about an SR, but you didn't really react to my SR which is odd coming from town

[Infinity 324]

"I was afraid of getting infinity to Elim -1/-2, so i unvoted"
-Okay, but the most recent vote for infinity explicitly said before the vote that it was E-6, you didn't read that post?
"No I wasn't reading posts"

Ehh, there's a reason votes are highlighted in white, you can see them even if you're skimming posts

I also think the other points are kind of nitpicky, like new players can be awkward with votes, and unvoting your RVS or semi-RVS vote is something that's fairly common from new players ime when they don't have another confident SR

The other thing that feels weird to me about your shadow push is that it's mostly based on the early game and I felt that he's been very towny since then, displaying nuance that I almost never see from newbscum (I can pull up quotes when I get to a computer)

Maybe we just see the game very differently? Idk

[Infinity 324]

>_>

[Infinity 324]

So is your problem that I'm too certain in my read or that I'm conflicted?

You're going to have to settle on which one you want to say makes me scum so you can finally finish this tiresome windup.

My problem is you jump from confident to conflicted in a way that doesn't look real

You're conflicted one moment then shooting people down who say i'm town the next

You're "seems too easy" post seems fake in light of the posts coming

directly after it

that imply you think i'm just scum

Genuine read, he thinks he's caught scum

VOTE: GC

GC keeps pinging me, I guess it doesn't feel like there's genuine scumhunting underneath his caginess?

Shadow, I feel like that would be scummy if anything? (Newbscum are more likely to be lost/confused I think) Though the slip was probably genuine.

I felt similar confusion at all the names. I'm

still

getting the D+D's mixed up. The desire to try and understand why people are voting/get a clear grasp of the game feels very townie to me. And her in-the-moment questioning after that post solidifies this TR.

Also - scum may be lost and confused, but they probably don't want to

appear

lost and confused. So the earnestness in being confused and the fact I felt similarly earns a townread from me. Do you feel there's a difference between being and appearing?

Nuanced read, and the way he quotes himself to clarify feels genuine

skitter you know i love you and i think you’re great. this isn’t personal.

@whoever is interested: skitter is within top 3 players onsite with ability to read me. probably top 1 if not close to it. she has crazy accuracy on me. therefore I will consider scumreading me a scumclaim, from her specifically.

@whoever else is interested re: “this argument is going nowhere”: I have unorthodox methods, I know. they don’t make a lot of sense to most people, I know. However, my methods have really worked for me - see [redacted].

- Daenerys

what tells do you think you have given so far that skitter would be able to pick up on and townread you for? isn't that townread also based on you being able to effectively play to your town meta in a way that skitter can identify?

lol I don’t think this is ever a problem for me, but sure:
- probing questions
- level of interest
- engagement with specific people
- skitter herself at the very beginning of this game brought up my “excitement.” I disagree that this is a perfect tell for me on principle but this is probably true to some extent.

would these not be able to be faked as mafia and would you not alter your playstyle to appeal to the people that can read you if you are scum?

This line of questioning reads really genuine to me because he's not just accepting the narrative of "skitter can read lilith", but he's trying to understand it for himself and fit it into his view of the game

lol I don’t think this is ever a problem for me, but sure:
- probing questions
- level of interest
- engagement with specific people
- skitter herself at the very beginning of this game brought up my “excitement.” I disagree that this is a perfect tell for me on principle but this is probably true to some extent.

would these not be able to be faked as mafia and would you not alter your playstyle to appeal to the people that can read you if you are scum?

trust me, I’ve tried. skitter is now something like 5/5 on me. I really hate to use self-meta/examine my own scumgames but.... I’m pretty polarized.

I had a vague sense of unease on auro’s posts before today but not really anything concrete

- Daenerys

ok, gotcha

i think i am coming around to you being town just because your entitlement to being townread feels very townie to me

Good read

[Infinity 324]

I don't actually know murder's scumgame, I don't really think this is it though

Agree that GC's shadow read feels a bit more genuine than before, still leaning towards him being scum

[Infinity 324]

UNVOTE:

[Infinity 324]

I'm townreading both hydras, Dumb & Dumber to a lesser extent because auro is confusing and skitter is good at scum.

I've looked over GC's more recent posts and fitting them into a scum mindset keeps feeling like a stretch. Don't really know who scum is outside of that.

Murdercat show us your towny soul

[Infinity 324]

Auro seems confusing to you since he vs Lilith happened? Or everything about him?

Everything about him is confusing

[Infinity 324]

Murder can you explain your read on the shadow/catboi slot?

[Infinity 324]

This is the part where I really feel like murder is town but I can't explain it so I'm just gonna keep saying it hoping that does something

[Infinity 324]

@lilith Not much has changed since I TRed skitter early, we mindmelded on GC a bit. It's not really a read I'm interested in re-evaluating until later on

Everyone is towny, let's wagon NM

VOTE: nm

[Infinity 324]

Despite of having more good/town posts than bad/scum posts, town!you feel performative.

Can you elaborate on this?

[Infinity 324]

Back in 2016-2017 there used to be people who claimed they could read NM, has that art been lost to time?

[Infinity 324]

I feel like he has been doing 155? It's clear he hasn't been giving 100% yet, but what I think he's trying to say (and I've experienced this too) is that he doesn't give 100% until he has the energy/motivation to do so.

[Infinity 324]

salsa is like super transparently beyond townie

Explain this?

[Infinity 324]

Because uh

I have way too many townreads and I don't like the murdercat wagon and he's not a townread for obvious reasons

[Infinity 324]

Y'all are not disappointed in me? Did you already have low expectations? Lol

[Infinity 324]

Want to hear infinity’s thoughts on gamma since he’s the one that originally told me my gamma vote was bad partially bc meta.

Still feel like gamma is town, I should really re-evaluate some of my TRs though

[Infinity 324]

Gamma chill

[Infinity 324]

Lilith can you try to explain what's been actively scummy about murder's content as opposed to just underwhelming

I've seen flashes of a town!murder personality here and I normally soulread him as town when he's town so I'm also reluctant to elim him today

I am sorta mindmelding with gamma here because I don't want to elim murder but I also am not excited about anyone else, that's why I voted NM at least, yeah it's lazy but I want to trust my reads enough to say that me having a lot of TRs means the unreadable players are more likely scum

[Infinity 324]

Agree that gamma's arguments aren't very strong but he does seem to believe them

[Infinity 324]

@infinity
catboi’s post sums up most of it I think, have you read and responded to this?

Actually just looked at your ISO and you don’t seem to have mentioned this post at all, which is interesting because this is probably the biggest scumcase on murder so far, and you seemingly hard townread this slot before catboi replaced in. Is there a reason you haven’t responded to catboi on murder or engaged with catboi at all?

- Daenerys

I read the post, it didn't really do anything for me. Most of it is like, murder is making lazy pushes and reasoning because he's kinda being lazy this game. If you're interested I can respond to it in more depth

[Infinity 324]

I will say that the last couple pages have made me more confident in town penguin

[Infinity 324]

The way he kept insisting you were wrong on that point (which tbh I kinda agree with) felt genuine and fits with what I know of his personality

[Infinity 324]

@lilith The argument isn't "murder could be lazy town"

It's "laziness isn't scum-indicative, especially for murder"

I just don't think any of the points against murder actually make him more likely to be scum, and he's felt towny to me so far

Fair point about not searching for other scum, I've been pretty demotivated and should probably be re-evaluating my TRs. But also, when I have reasons to TR a lot of the playerlist, yeah maybe players like NM and yyota, who I don't have reasons to TR, are more likely scum

[Infinity 324]

Yeah I do wish he would post more since he said he would be, but is leaving the thread and "hoping the wagon dissipates" something scum actually do ever? Idk

[Infinity 324]

I haven't gotten townvibes from NM, I'm (very) not confident I'll be able to read NM later

PEdit: I don't see it happen often, and I don't see why murder would think that would happen in this gamestate?

[Infinity 324]

I actually don't remember a time when scum has lurked out a wagon hoping it dissipates, but maybe there's been a time where it happened and I though the scum was just demotivated or something

It just seems like a very dumb thing to do and I don't think that's really how wagons work, maybe in larges idk

[Infinity 324]

Yeah I'm not arguing that murder is town for it

[Infinity 324]

I was arguing against the fact that it's scummy for murder to not be here atm, I think it's NAI

[Infinity 324]

Can you link me a game where scum!lilith showed this level of proactiveness or emotion

[Infinity 324]

Feel better skitt

[Infinity 324]

Honestly lilith has felt pretty obvtown to me too but this is exhausting to read through

[Infinity 324]

Tbh I think she put it very well, I haven't seen scum!lilith being this proactive in trying to sort people, the way she feels entitled to be townread seems very genuine for someone who isn't confident in her scumgame, the OMGUS feels towny in a way that's hard to describe, and the push on skitt makes very little sense coming from scum

Need to look at those links but lilith would have to be playing a very impressive and unorthodox scumgame to be scum here

[Infinity 324]

Honestly the fact that it took you so long to get there is making me paranoid. And the way the interaction started up and stopped and started up again makes me feel like it's not TvT, but I'm not sure. SvT interactions tend to progress weirdly like that sometimes

[Infinity 324]

Really?

[Infinity 324]

Huh

[Infinity 324]

Salsabil is bleeding obvtown.

Ok it took me a while to get here but I agree

[Infinity 324]

In terms of scumgames, I only have 4+ year old ones and micros that aren't very substantial, I can link either or both?

[Infinity 324]

Town games
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12467181
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12433560
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... B%5D=21297

Recent micro scum games
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12361575
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12298996

Old scum games
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... B%5D=21297
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... er_sort=Go

[Infinity 324]

Link? GC has felt really towny to me since I stopped SRing him

[Infinity 324]

@skitter I guess the part that felt the most weird to me is that you were TRing lilith for a bit, and then you stopped--you seem to be saying that you stopped TRing her because it felt like she was only focusing on engaging with auro, and you weren't TRing lilith strongly to begin with. So why were you TRing lilith to begin with, cause that kinda feels like a weak reason to go back on a TR? And like, I'm still not quite sure why you were SRing her/not TRing her to begin with. You said you didn't see town!lilith, but I feel like lilith generally, just, was being proactive and trying to sort people in a way that's towny for most people, and lilith doesn't have the strongest scumgame in the world. Idk

[Infinity 324]

also for the 'emotional scumrange' bit: we've talked abt this - you're very flat as scum, you go through the motions, you ask incidental questions with no followthrough. there isn't really any emotional connection to the game really. you aren't invested, you aren't convicted, and you just don't *care* as much. you're done all three of the latter now, so i townread you. your early game kinda looked like the former, so i didn't then.

But like the auro interaction, while you could've seen it as over the top, yes, it was a perfect example of lilith being emotionally engaged and I TRed her for it at the time so ??

[Infinity 324]

and infinity the auro/lilith thing i was discounting because it was ate-y and largely driven by irl things, it seemed, didn't really seem like her alignemnt had much to do with it. like it was nai and she was having a bad day. coudlnt' read into that really

The way she pushed back an demanded answers from auro specifically showed a town mindset to me

[Infinity 324]

When I played with scum!skitt in silent star 3, I had the same experience of her having good arguments, but there was a strong gut feeling she was scum there. I don't get the same feeling here, but she wasn't as engaged/motivated because she didn't enjoy the setup so I'm not sure what to think. Maybe a more motivated scum!skitt could watch how her posts come off better?

[Infinity 324]

I prefer voting murder to gamma

[Infinity 324]

I have more solid reasons to TR gamma that I can go into tomorrow, it comes down to the fact that he doesn't care at all about how he's perceived

Murder I just got some townvibes, I could be wrong there ig

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: murdercat

Sorry murder </3

E-1

[Infinity 324]

Why does gamma stick his neck out to defend his buddy in the way he did of the buddy wasn't the bomb?

[Infinity 324]

Idk

[Infinity 324]

That makes even less sense :/

It was pretty clear no other CW was gaining traction, I don't get why gamma makes himself look awful trying to defend murder esp if he's bomb

[Infinity 324]

That makes even less sense :/

It was pretty clear no other CW was gaining traction, I don't get why gamma makes himself look awful trying to defend murder esp if he's bomb

I agree that MC flipping scum is better for Mena-town possibility than if MC was town (as Gamma's non-AI defense of MC-town would look like Gamma-scum TMI),

but Gamma's defense of MC was early-ish of the MC wagon so not necessarily just throwing himself in front of an inevitable elimination

and Gamma's defense of MC is probably objectively verifiable (e.g., MC gets better as town as the game goes on; MC has been pushed early as town before), which is a good scum argument because it's technically correct, but is a scum argument because it isn't AI for MC in this game

also you were there similarly supporting the anti-MC push--so, if you're town, then Gamma-scum isn't alone protecting MC-buddy

finally Gamma's change on MC is inconsistent with his play towards the MC slot given penguin's Post 1450

What was gamma's partner doing if gamma was trying to defend murder then? Almost everyone was on either gamma or murder. Yes scum can position themselves differently, but I just don't see the benefit to gamma defending murder so conspicuously there if the plan was to bus.

Also, penguin came to the conclusion that gamma's progression actually made some sense. Gamma's positions don't always make the most sense on the surface, yeah it changed abruptly but he didn't really make an effort to make it look smooth.

I want to look at the people who were shading murder but voting gamma instead, I'm thinking maybe scum felt that gamma would be harder to push as a miselim once murder flipped scum.

[Infinity 324]

but, gamma, i did see that you, gamma, started to shift your, gamma, opinion earlier back than i originally though. And, gamma, you did say that the kitty of murder felt flat, gamma, prior to your townread tirade so, gamma, i guess i'll give you, gamma, the benefit of the doubt and say that your, gamma's, progression there is actually ok.

I'm not asking for a full solve, but your argument makes a lot less sense when you realize there had to be bussing fmpov

[Infinity 324]

Right, so one scum is bussing, planning for murder to get limmed (or gamma?)

So why is gamma hard defending murder and making himself look awful?

[Infinity 324]

In a scum!gamma world, everyone was bussing right? Besides me, everyone was on murder or gamma for most of d1 unless I'm misremembering

[Infinity 324]

Lilith and catboi, who were like 2 of my strongest TRs

Idk I need to reread

PEdit: I don't see why scum!gamma was defending murder while his partner was bussing. I don't get what he was trying to achieve.

[Infinity 324]

I mean, I did just say I need to reread

Shading to me means directing some suspicion without a vote

[Infinity 324]

idk I feel like you’re making a bit of a false dichotomy - like if I’m not townreading murder then I must be voting him or else it’s suspicious. but I had a much stronger scumread on someone else. and catboi was on the murder wagon. so neither of us being named makes much sense.

Yeah I don't think it necessarily makes you scum, but I'd expect scum to have that position if that makes sense. I have a hard time seeing you as scum after your play d1 in general

[Infinity 324]

I mean, I did just say I need to reread

I forgot about it

[Infinity 324]

I'm here, haven't really felt like playing mafia today, I'm gonna try posting my thoughts as I read

I'm thinking scum were trying to elim gamma because me and NM were "swing votes" that scum didn't know were gonna vote murder

[Infinity 324]

Actually, skitter, what was townpinging you about murder early d1?

[Infinity 324]

thanks MURDERKITTY

i don't mean to be rude or offensive or anything but from what i hear you're supposed to be p good at town and, well, your readslist was a bit Not Good and shallow
so that's a little concerning to me

~ skitter

This really doesn't feel like a partner post

[Infinity 324]

Murder could've started a wagon on yyotta with his vote on her, since she wasn't exactly townspewing, but his reason for unvoting was so weak that I don't really think it makes yyotta town.

[Infinity 324]

I probably would've called murder out for SRing gamma if he actively did so, so he was probably waiting to deadline to vote there.

It's very possible I'm just am idiot again, and I may just have to vote mena to advance the game, but eh

[Infinity 324]

MURDERCAT

{4}

- Dumb and Dumber, PenguinPower, Green Crayons, Not_Mafia

shadowslug

{2}

- Daenerys and Dragons, YyottaCat

Green Crayons

{2}

- Infinity 324, shadowslug

YyottaCat

{1}

- Gamma Emerald

Not voting

{2}

- MURDERCAT, Salsabil Faria

Votes needed to Eliminate:

{6}

. Deadline for Day 1 is Saturday, February 13 at 2 PM EDT, or in (expired on 2021-02-13 16:00:00).

MOD NOTES:
Please reach out if you notice any mistakes in my count.

shadowslug has requested replacement, I will begin the search when I get home.

I wonder what scum are doing in this VC?

PEdit: I think gamma/mena slot is town

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

let's try this out.

This is the first vote on murder I think? It's possible catboi comes in, thinks he needs to bus murder, then sees an opportunity to start a different wagon, but not super occam's razor-y. I also want to stick with my shadow TR.

[Infinity 324]

first vote on gamma*

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: gamma

For the reasons I stated before as to why i'd like vote him; plus I'm skeptical of his ATE in responding to lilith. lilith's reasons in her case post are also not wrong.


I know i unvoted MC but I'm fine with his elim too. I unvoted him earlier after his explanation of his penguin vote to me, but there's also still his vast lack of activity (not just in frequency of posts, but in pushing any suspicion forward beyond penguin after getting wagoned).

This vote was very late and I think scum!GC would try to vote gamma earlier if he wanted to save murder. Yyotta/NM seem like more likely non-bussing partners to me

[Infinity 324]

I TR'ed gamma because he wasn't trying to look town and because the emotion in defending murder felt very genuine, some of the logic he used didn't make a lot of sense but that isn't scummy. Scum!gamma has to have a bit more self-awareness there, and realize his defense isn't going to do much there, especially with no effective counterwagon.

[Infinity 324]

Mena's posting has also felt towny to me so far

[Infinity 324]

i feel like if he was trying to save murder that's exactly when he would have voted gamma?
(assumign town-gamma)

if scum-gamma than gc is probably town i would say

Not really, I feel like he hops on the game wagon after catboi/lilith do, the way he did it is unnecessarily awkward imo.

VOTE: yyotta

[Infinity 324]

/shrug I think we can afford a mislim or two

[Infinity 324]

Mostly PoE, I think yyotta's read on murder is pretty partner-y too

[Infinity 324]

Fwiw I think I'm probably out of my scumrange here

[Infinity 324]

Any response to catboi’s theory on you?

I don't think it's super useful for me to respond to that in depth, except that I voted murder at deadline because I thought he was a better elim than gamma.

Fwiw I think I'm probably out of my scumrange here

Explain

I think I have more difficulty explaining my reads as scum than I've had this game, there's not usually a lot of nuance there. Tbf it's been a while since I've had a substantial scumgame

[Infinity 324]

@mod can we get a vc please?

infinity i really do not feel town-you here :/
i don't really like your read on mena/gamma or on yyotta, and i don't like the flippancy r.e. potentially misflipping yyotta

~ skitteR

My comment there wasn't wrt yyotta, it's was wrt me/mena if you feel like you should elim there

Ofc I could be wrong on mena but I don't think so

[Infinity 324]

I don't agree

[Infinity 324]

That my reasoning is not solid. I may not have articulated it in the best way, but I think it's solid reasoning especially since I'm decently familiar with gamma's meta

[Infinity 324]

I don’t really get this argument of “well scum wouldn’t do X because wouldn’t they have a better strategy than that?”

I mean, you said that about MC not being in thread and then he flipped scum

Scum can and do do things that look bad. in this case scum!gamma would have had a pretty good reason to try to defuse pressure on murder by diverting the wagon elsewhere. MC wasn’t being towny, so what “good” reasons could gamma have come up with to townread MC? Pretty much any reason you use to call MC towny is not going to look good. And gamma was trying to wagon NM so there would have been a specific purpose there to calling MC town.

- Daenerys

I'm not sure you get what I'm saying. Gamma is competent at scum. People were happy with the murder wagon. It doesn't make sense to put yourself out there with a weak defense, no one is going to buy it and it will make you look worse. If gamma was scum, that means there wasn't a good town CW, and pushing on NM as a CW doesn't make sense because there isn't solid reasoning to call him scummy with. He could've just...null read murder if murder wasn't being towny, and said he's not willing to go to bat for murder. Scum don't do bad plays because "WIFOM lul".

We can ask murder postgame whether he was avoiding the thread or demotivated, I have my suspicions

[Infinity 324]

That my reasoning is not solid. I may not have articulated it in the best way, but I think it's solid reasoning especially since I'm decently familiar with gamma's meta

being an asshole /= town
getting emotional /= town

I feel like this is at best something like a nullcase on him, not a towncase - gamma’s reasoning being “not scummy” is not the same thing as gamma’s reasoning being towny.

What did you think was genuine about gamma’s defense of MC? Why are bad reasons NAI? Why are bad reasons from gamma a reason to townread him and not a reason to nullread him (at best)?

- Daenerys

Being an asshole isn't towny in a vacuum, but antagonizing a widely TRed player for no discernible benefit to scum is

Getting emotional isn't towny, but displaying genuine emotion tends to be

I thought gamma displayed genuine emotion when he dug in his heels against you/penguin arguing against murder's elim

Bad reasons are NAI because they are

They're not a reason to TR gamma, they're NAI

[Infinity 324]

It's kind of poetic, because the last time I rolled scum against murder, I was widely suspected d1, he wasn't so sure, and a bunch of people thought he was scum d2 as a result. I think we're just biased towards TRing each other.

[Infinity 324]

Everything I'm saying about gamma not trying to look town and drawing attention to himself is 10x more true if people are saying he's the bomb

Bussing is like, a tactic that is available

[Infinity 324]

I’m saying scum don’t always do something because it fits with their “optimal” strategy. Sometimes they just do scummy things. Otherwise.. how would we catch them? Regardless of whether it was intentionally done or not, MC was not in the thread while his wagon was high. You tried to argue that he wasn’t doing that as scum because scum would know better, but lo and behold, he flipped red. I feel like you’re applying something similar here where like everything that someone does has to be perfectly ascribed to an optimal scum strategy. Like... maybe scum!gamma started out with a really weak defense of murder (which imo it was) and then felt like he was “stuck” and tried to counterwagon NM but got nowhere and didn’t really feel like he could scumread anyone??? It’s not that hard for someone who is “competent” at scum to just.. not do the optimal thing all the time. (case in point: me in jk9++, pyp, cards of destiny, legends.. etc).

I've clarified the murdercat point before, I believe he had just given up, I don't think there was a realistic hope of the wagon "just going away" when he had implied he was going to be less underwhelming and hadn't done so.

Yes it's possible scum!gamma misplayed, but occam's razor says he didn't, I have no idea why someone would feel locked into a weak townread

I think it’s very very possible that scum!gamma had a genuine reaction to penguin poking him, because that’s how scum!me reacted to penguin poking me in jk9++. I was genuinely angry at what felt like penguin being condescending towards me. When gamma was lashing out, it crossed my mind more than once that penguin responding to people with snarky gifs and looking at the person’s reaction might be a good way to read the person.

I'm not sure how to argue this, I felt strongly when I saw gamma's posts that the genuine emotion was connected to a belief that murdercat was town

I agree with you that gamma was out of line at some points, I don't see why that's scum-indicative, or why scum antagonizes you on purpose there.

[Infinity 324]

Gamma’s perspective is like so far out of the realm of where my head’s at that it’s really difficult for me to believe that this is a town perspective.

Almost every time I see this logic being used it's wrong. I agree that gamma's position didn't make a ton of sense, but he's perfectly capable of making sense as scum, and I don't see why he's bending over backwards to justify a SR on you as scum

I don't think you're going to be convinced by my arguments if you haven't been already

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: mena I'm done with this, we need to advance the game. I'm confident this is a town win, we have enough obvtown players

[Infinity 324]

Something looking bad is not a very good reason that that thing will never be done by scum.

I can't resist arguing mafia theory

In my experience, for every scum who does something that obviously looks bad, there are 10 who don't do it, or do it but have an excuse that looks pretty reasonable

Gamma didn't seem to have a reasonable excuse to defend murder, or to SR you

Psychologically, scum are scared to do the thing that "obviously" looks bad because it's, well, scary. And a better plan than trying to do the obvious thing and WIFOM people is to come up with a reasonable excuse, because then you don't get SRed by the people that SR the obvious bad stuff. And even if you're playing against a lobby of infinities, sometimes I will buy the reasonable excuse anyway. It tends to be easier than people expect to come up with a reasonable excuse for things, too.

[Infinity 324]

I’m not arguing that scum will always do these things. I’m just arguing that scum will not never do these things, so doing it isn’t a very good reason to say someone is not scum. I feel like your reasoning on murder and now gamma is that scum would never do something that looks scummy which I fundamentally disagree with. Also, I’m still not sure how this is town-indicative? Are you trying to argue that town are more likely to do scummy things than scum?

They're only "scummy" in the sense that a blatant contradiction is scummy or a scumread on a obvtown UTR player is scummy. Scum try to avoid doing them, and town sometimes is weird, so they tend to come from town more often. Of course scum will sometimes do these things, there's nothing scum will never do, but they are weakly to strongly town-indicative depending on meta and context.

[Infinity 324]

If infinity flips scum, then whoever was recruited N1 needs to die before endgame, if that isn’t clear

Good point

[Infinity 324]

Scum claim imo

This is TMI

[Infinity 324]

anyway noice job town, sorry mena for the hard spot to replace in to

why in the world did both scum defend MC?

The games in which it's correct to bus d1 are very rare--I planned to hard defend murder at some point but there wasn't much to hard defend him on, and it was an usually sluggish game in terms of wagon movement which I underestimated

[Infinity 324]

gg

[Infinity 324]

I'm pretty confident I would've be TRing gamma in a vacuum on play, maybe the amount of towny people or the wagon dynamics would've changed my conclusion though