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- Haschel Cedricson
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You tell me.In post 22, StrangeMatter wrote:
An RVS no?In post 19, Haschel Cedricson wrote:Vanilla Town is the best role because not only do I get to give zero fucks about drawing the nightkill, it's actually good for me to draw it.
StrangeMatter: Why Hockeyfan?- Haschel Cedricson
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In post 23, Haschel Cedricson wrote:
You tell me.In post 22, StrangeMatter wrote:
An RVS no?In post 19, Haschel Cedricson wrote:Vanilla Town is the best role because not only do I get to give zero fucks about drawing the nightkill, it's actually good for me to draw it.
StrangeMatter: Why Hockeyfan?- Haschel Cedricson
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I gave some slack, thus the empty quote.In post 56, Save The Dragons wrote:i guess it's a natural progression of asking a question and not getting an answer so maybe it's okay
i just think haschel might know give a newbie a little slack when it comes to not answering but maybe now strangematter will answer
Now let's be proactive.- Haschel Cedricson
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And immediately before that vote, you asked a question about our confidence in winning the game, correct?In post 58, StrangeMatter wrote:
Correct.In post 55, Haschel Cedricson wrote:You are saying that your vote on Hockeyfan was RVS, correct?- Haschel Cedricson
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In post 89, HockeyFan wrote:
Ok so, I town read STD because of post#13. That post had the aura of being "I am town, I'm confident and I am going to win this game for town". My read switched on him because of posts #52 and #56 where he said "strangematter, i think haschel wants your attention" and "i just think haschel might know give a newbie a little slack when it comes to not answering". These 2 statements feel like very mafia partnery like to relieve some pressureIn post 84, Lukewarm wrote:HockeyFan, I am trying to follow your read progression on STD. Can you explain it more. You gave him a really early "confident town read," then backed it off of it with
Who is he protecting there? Strangematter? Do you even scum read Strangematter? I thought I was your strongest scum read, at least you are voting me, so then why would you be of particularly suspicious of his interaction with Strangematter and haschel?In post 74, HockeyFan wrote:Also, speaking about SVD:I did call him town earlier but after seeing post#52 and post#56 idk about that anymore, He was trying to soft defend his possible scum partner so SVD is back to null leaning scum. I also really liked this questioning by Zyla and I feel like scum dont try to push on someone who was already TR'D by 1-2 people.
Can you walk me through your thinking?
As of right now, Strangematter is a null read for me(maybe leaning scum), You are my strongest scum read, so does that mean i'm not allowed to see other pairs in partnership because fwiw the strangematter/STD pair seemed very likely. I was suspicious because I have 0 idea why STD Needs to intervene their. Like my SR'S rn are You -> STD -> StrangeMatter. Hope this helps. and btw, My read on u might change back to null soon based on theinteractions between strange and STD
I am gonna get off for now, so i will be answering questions tmr morning
Who is scummier, STD or StrangeMatter?- Haschel Cedricson
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Can you restate why Strange is scum?In post 114, HockeyFan wrote: Strange Matter is the scummier one right now but STD is very close to being as scummy Strange rn(although as of right now, the read on STD can change a ton based on their next few posts, unlike the Strange SR from me rn)- Haschel Cedricson
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Please do not answer questions that weren't specifically addressed to you. I don't care about what your answer to the question is; I do care very much that you spoonfed Hockey an answer before he had a chance to answer it for himself.In post 120, StrangeMatter wrote:
Based off your questions for me, and likely the start that I had early on.In post 117, Haschel Cedricson wrote:
Can you restate why Strange is scum?In post 114, HockeyFan wrote: Strange Matter is the scummier one right now but STD is very close to being as scummy Strange rn(although as of right now, the read on STD can change a ton based on their next few posts, unlike the Strange SR from me rn)
This doesn't make sense. As far as I can tell your case on STD is dependent on STD being Strange's scumbuddy. If Strange isn't scum then you shouldn't still be thinking STD is scum based on what you've presented so far.In post 124, HockeyFan wrote:Yea sorry about that should have clarified, the arrows in between STD and Strange dont necessarily mean "This person is wayyyyy scummier". I just used that list as "possible 3 scum fmpov". That list is interchangeable especially STD and Strange- Haschel Cedricson
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His stated feelings about STD and you aren't quite consistent, and he's keeping the names out there without actually doing any investigating.In post 138, StrangeMatter wrote:I really need to ask this, but why did you push HockeyFan earlier? Just wondering.
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Alright there are a few directions I'm interested in going. First off, Strange spends the bulk of the game focusing on just three players. There's a lot of suspicion about HockeyFan, a whole lot of sound with no substance about Cyrus, and the interactions with Pavowski which ultimately result in a vote on Pavowski. There are a few things I see here. First of all, the push back on Pavowski is not good. Pav is playing very pro-town, and his vote for Strange is well-reasoned and well-justified. Meanwhile, Strange's defense of their own vote on Pav comes across as lackluster to me.
Also of note, Strange says that Zyla is a "decently good townread". No explanation is given.
So, is Zyla a good townread? She certainly has a long enough ISO that we should be able to find out. But are those posts substantial? No. No they are not. Out of all of her posts I was only able to pinpoint four that look like they are scumhunting or scumhunting-adjacent: A vote on Hockey with weak reasoning, a minor defense of Lukewarm with weak reasoning, a list of reads where the scumreads are justified with "Mostly gut read" on Strange and "I feel like I've made my case enough here" on Hockey (she has not btw).
Vote: Zylais a good road to follow and Zyla/Strange isn't a possibility that strikes me as beyond the pale.
Meanwhile Azeru is making some posts that I like, and Fen seems weirdly focused on me to a point that is disproportionate with the few posts I had made.
I'm still gonna be rereading more, but this should provide enough of a framework for a discussion for now.- Haschel Cedricson
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"Decent amount" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there; besides the post preceding the vote and 155 it's all incredibly light. Why specifically are you reading Zyla as town?In post 763, Lukewarm wrote:I mean, I literally just isoed her, and I felt like she was doing a decent amount of digging into Hockey. Questioning his reads and votes and how those didn't line up for her.
As for why I'm bringing attention to Zyla over Strange, I am declining to answer that at the moment.
Preview Edit: For starters I'm not claiming "gut". Second of all, Strange had made a ton of game-relevant posts to comment on so "a lot of posts with little say" isn't really an accurate description. Up to that point in the game Strange had been saying a fair bit about Hockey and Cyrus. That's not nothing.- Haschel Cedricson
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1) I was asked in RVS if I preferred being Town or Mafia. My reply was I prefer being vanilla town most of all. Somebody caught that but I'm too lazy to find out who.In post 766, Save The Dragons wrote:17 i'm not sure what to make of his "vanilla town means zero fucks" post, it could come from vt or bombastic scum but i'm not sure it was a good idea to basically say "i'm not a pr don't nk me but also i'm supposed to draw the nk"
i've talked a lot about his interaction with strange
140 i agree with. @Haschel, how do you feel about Hockeyfan now?
759 i'm not focused on you i keep getting asked about you. why do you go for zyla instead of strange?
2) Better, although admittedly that's partially because my two strongest scumreads have gone after him. I've skimmed his ISO but haven't done a deep dive yet like I did with the others I mentioned in my last post.
3) No comment.- Haschel Cedricson
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Okay, let's look deeper at these posts she thinks are scummy.In post 769, Lukewarm wrote: I think that Zyla has not done as good of a job summarizing her read as she could, but she is definitely pushing him over posts that she thinks are scummy.
70 into 87, pressing him over his STD read, and calling him out for trying to back off of it
She presses him over his read of me in 155 and 157
She presses him over his read of her in 207
And then she pushes him again in 720
And then again in 757
- HockeyFan mentions that an RQS question was asked and doesn't answer it -> "I find it interesting that you mention my question but don't actually respond to either of them" and "Ignoring is NAI, but mentioning it and not responding seemed a little off to me."
I don't know how many fucks the rest of you give towards a player not answering a blatant RQS question, but I promise you your number is way too high.
- Hockey makes a weak read -> Zyla points out it is weak -> Hockey acknowledges it was weak -> Zyla attacks Hockey for backing down from a read she herself pointed out was weak in the first place.
- Hockey says he didn't feel Luke was genuine in his first few posts -> Zyla attacks something that pretty much by definition is a subjective feeling, and adds that experienced scum would be less likely to defend their partner.
While bussing is a thing, in a game with two scum it's incredibly important that the scum don't lose a member on Day 1, so this is an incredibly weak defense of Luke.
- HockeyFan mentions that Lukewarm had thrown minor suspicion onto HockeyFan along with Cyrus, although most pressure had come from me -> Zyla points out that Lukewarm wasn't thinking that Hockeyfan was scummy.
That, of course, ignores the fact that Lukewarm had indeed been applying pressure to Hockey; Luke's 84/145/147/148/151/164 are certainly adversarial enough with regards to Hockeyfan that I have no problem whatsoever with Hockeyfan interpreting it as a minor attack on him.
The remaining posts all refer to things that were said after I read Zyla's ISO but I'll indulge you anyway.
- Zyla attacks Hockey for a supposed scumslip in Hockey's very first post of the game.
I don't care about the RVS stage at all on page 2; I'm not gonna start caring on page 31. I can't analyze the rest of this post or 757 until I do the deep dive on HockeyFan.
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Gee I wish I had a second bullet point where I addressed the STD re...In post 773, Lukewarm wrote: 1) You focused on the RQS question, and ignored her calling him out over the the STD read
Yeah, like that one.2)That is a good thing?? If he is pressed over a read, and the response is "don't pay attention to my reads" why would she not keep pushing?
Counterpoint, what should HockeyFan have done with his read? Doubled down?
Yeah I skipped over that aspect of the questioning because it's an aspect I stopped caring about a long time ago.3)Here she is asking him to define how he is coming to a scum read. You are also ignored the fact that she pushes him over his partner associations. Like the exact line of questioning that she puts towards Hockey here, is the same basis for your vote on him in 132, but then you completely skip over that aspect of the questioning.
Hold on, Hockey's scumread on Zyla is based primarily on her lazy case on Hockey. I agree with Hockey that Zyla is making a lazy case on Hockey. Zyla doesn't get townpoints with me by pushing back on that unless that push involves a much less lazy case than what I'm seeing here.4) I will concede the point about how Hockey would have perceived me; I was adversarial with his logic, which I can understand him taking to be that I thought he was scum.
But you ignore the part entirely, where she is also pressuring him over his scum read on her in that post.
I was very explicit that I can't evaluate that stuff yet until I do my dive into Hockeyfan.5) Again, you are ignoring the thing that she is actually pressing him over, which is the stuff over his reads of Azeru and Pav.- Haschel Cedricson
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I know how people feel about StrangeMatter right now. I don't know they felt about Zyla.In post 790, Azeru wrote: Ireallydon't like how in 759 Haschel throws shade at Strange, and then Zyla, with similar reasons, recognizes the pairing as a "possibility", and then chooses to stray the conversation away from Strange. Saying that someone at E-1 is scummy and then steering the topic away from them entirely.
Let's find out.- Haschel Cedricson
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In post 807, Pavowski wrote:Maybe this is a personal thing, but I find this sort of response distinctly scummy. It basically tells the asker "I have more information than you and I'm not sharing it with you for reasons."
And the only people who definitely have any more *hard* information than any of us at this point are the mafia. Cyrus pulled this kind of crap A LOT and I feel the exact same way on those plays.
Now, Haschel has a direct, aggressive style, so maybe this is another of his targeted strikes like we saw earlier in the thread. But it hits me some kind of way.
Remember earlier how I mentioned how much I hate it when people answer questions intended for other people because it spoonfeeds them answers? By the same token when I want specific people to address something I'm not going to tell them in advance the sort of things I'm looking for.In post 811, Azeru wrote:Haschel: Don't love the tone of his recent posts. He's deliberately hiding information, and has pulled attention entirely away from a player that was recently under pressure with motives that he refuses to disclose. Until he chooses to actually prompt discussion and give town information, this is a scummy lean.
Let me make something clear; my job is not to convince you all that I am town. Y'all can think I lean scum or whatever. My job as a member of the town (and the job of six of you as well) is to convince everybody that the people I believe are scum should be eliminated today. Everything else is secondary.- Haschel Cedricson
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This isn't game-related at all but please stop saying "lynch"; that's not the term we use on this site anymore.In post 819, cyrus62 wrote:lynch me if it helps.
This goes for everybody but it especially goes to you considering you just messaged me to tell me the reason the mods took your avatar away was because it had the Confederate flag in it.- Haschel Cedricson
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Start with Zyla's ISO, since you've only mentioned her once in this entire game.In post 845, StrangeMatter wrote:Time to check some other people's ISOs, especially people I haven't heard much about so far.- Haschel Cedricson
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In post 853, StrangeMatter wrote:So far from ISOs, I think that Zyla has been generally Town, but I think the first part of didn't sit well with me. I just don't see why that would be considered scummy to acknowledge the question that was designed to have many people answer the question. Maybe its just my thought process when it comes to Town, but I'd like to hear Zyla's logic regarding that post.
I see. What strikes you as particularly town?- Haschel Cedricson
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I'm sorry, out of the entire ISO the thing that strikes you as particularly town is a post made on the previous page of the thread? Is that correct?In post 859, StrangeMatter wrote:In post 855, Haschel Cedricson wrote:In post 853, StrangeMatter wrote:So far from ISOs, I think that Zyla has been generally Town, but I think the first part of didn't sit well with me. I just don't see why that would be considered scummy to acknowledge the question that was designed to have many people answer the question. Maybe its just my thought process when it comes to Town, but I'd like to hear Zyla's logic regarding that post.
I see. What strikes you as particularly town?
After that first one that I felt was a little weird from, the question raised in [post]842 about Hockey initially TR STD felt reasonable to me. Even though its early in the game, it doesn't seem strange to point something like this out it. Still, I think I'll put her as a Town lean for right now.- Haschel Cedricson
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Alright.In post 862, StrangeMatter wrote:Not only that, post #420, #608, and #486 feel like town asking questions about things that they found a little suspicious to me.
Now address my #759 (second half of post) and #772.
Be specific.- Haschel Cedricson
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Now try again but with specifics this time. What points do you like? Which points do you disagree with?In post 867, StrangeMatter wrote:To address #759 and #772, at the time I had a read on Zyla based on early actions that she did with careful questions. However, right now I'm more conflicted with her being Town right now based off what you've said. They bring up some good points to why Zyla could be scum, so its fair to think about them too. So, the answer to your question is no. Not really, but I still think she's a weak Town lean right now, so if you don't agree, that's fine.- Haschel Cedricson
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Do you know the difference between a majority and a plurality?In post 877, cyrus62 wrote:No who ever has the most votes is majority. As of now the majority is StrangeMatter
That’s a rhetorical question.- Haschel Cedricson
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Getting caught up but I'll address this: Strange already had a ton of pressure on them while you had none, and I also specifically wanted to see how Strange would react to the case on you.In post 969, Zyla wrote:Oh btw,@HCare you able to answer now what made you choose me over strange?- Haschel Cedricson
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Why would I know that the jailkeeper locked up Zyla?In post 1158, cyrus62 wrote:No Zyla is 100% town the Br is dead hockey lets eliminate hc think about it the jail keep locked up Zyla so hc would know since he's se that Zyla is innocent. VOTE: hc- Haschel Cedricson
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I did read that you told Azeru to lock of Zyla. I did not read anything indicating that Azeru agreed to do that.In post 1160, cyrus62 wrote:
Did you not read I told him to lock up Zyla? Have you not been using the two days to catch upIn post 1159, Haschel Cedricson wrote:
Why would I know that the jailkeeper locked up Zyla?In post 1158, cyrus62 wrote:No Zyla is 100% town the Br is dead hockey lets eliminate hc think about it the jail keep locked up Zyla so hc would know since he's se that Zyla is innocent. VOTE: hc
Luke's interactions regarding Zyla were suspicious as hell so if Zyla is cleared via tracker then I need to go back to the drawing board.- Haschel Cedricson
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"Keep" defending is a bit strong but I do see how a Luke/Hockey pairing could be feasible. I forget who came up with the theory but there's something called the Rule Of Three that states if a mafioso gives three townreads then one of the three will be a partner. Lukewarm put me/Hockey/Zyla as his three strongest townreads in 359, and then Zyla/Azeru/Hockey in 844 and 1012.- Haschel Cedricson
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Lukewarm knew he was going to flip and gave some last reads. He pegged the scumteam as Pav/STD.
From my perspective obviously he was giving cover to his partner by calling them scum; since I know I'm town and Zyla is confirmed town this isn't up for debate with me. The question becomes who was he giving a worse reason for scumreading? He wanted to express suspicion of his partner but not in a way that would actually lead to danger.
The big things Luke said about STD was that he liked STD's reaction to my questioning of Strange but didn't like the line about "cutting a new player slack". That's weak. He was willing to lim STD instead of Strange because " I would expect more coming from his slot since he is an SE this game, but then he has also said he has irl stuff going on, so idk. Not planning on pushing here, but am willing to move there if it is the difference between a no-elim or not." On Day 2 he shifts to a case on STD which isn't bad, but isn't the sort of case that will get other people to jump on board.
Finally he says
The partnership he floats is obviously wrong, but he makes a decent point about scum knowing there's a 50/50 chance that the jailkeeper targeted scum. And who does he try to distance himself from first-thing? STD.GTH, the scum team is still [STD, Pav] imo. Finding out that we have a jailkeeper who saved me has only strengthened that read. It now makes Way More sense for the two of them to come out of the gate bussing one another. If they knew that there was a 50/50 chance that the jailkeeper had targeted the scum who tried to kill me, then yeah, they needed to start the day off working as hard as they could to make sure that they were not seen as partners. Scum are paranoid, and would have seen this day as a ticking time bomb until the jailkeeper outed one of them.
Pav has struck me as a decent townread all game while Fen has been closer to null. I think a Luke/STD partnership is a lot more likely than Luke/Pav.
Vote: Save The Dragons- Haschel Cedricson
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Got an actual case besides vague support for where you know another player is already suspicious?In post 1274, Save The Dragons wrote:I think it's just haschel here but I still want to double check when I have a chance- Haschel Cedricson
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I have already said that I never claimed VT; I was answering an RQS question. I've explained this several times and the fact you are still harping on it is weird.In post 1276, Save The Dragons wrote:D1-
Haschel comments about the vanilla townie in his opening post which at first I thought was fine but the more I think about it the weirder it is. If you're trying to draw the night kill, why claim vanilla townie? you just told scum not to kill you. nah i think it's to make people think he's town.
This is a game with multiple scum in it, and to find all of them we need to talk about other people. Everybody had already given stances on Strange and at the time nobody had given a stance on Zyla. I thought Zyla was scummy at the time. Obviously the case I made on Zyla was wrong. But is there ANYTHING about it that suggests it wasn't made in good faith? No there is not.Haschel chooses Zyla to target but keep in mind he's still scumreading strange. I think he was trying to stay off of Strangematter's mislim here while still shading them.- Haschel Cedricson
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Pav, look through STDs iso and tell me if you honestly see any scumhunting at all. My activity has been garbage but at least I’ve been trying when I’ve been here.In post 1278, Pavowski wrote:
Same to you.In post 1276, Save The Dragons wrote:If it's Pav, good job man, you got me fooled.
Zyla?- Haschel Cedricson
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Your case against me is extremely thin and the reads you have given have either little/no explanation, focus on townreads, or see no follow up.In post 1281, Save The Dragons wrote:I have done scumhunting. My catchup poster d1 illuminate my thoughts and I've made my case against you now. I've posted reads multiple times. My activity has been pretty bad but I've been here- Haschel Cedricson
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