Newbie 1859 (Game Over)

[skitter30]

It looked to me like you were grooming pin to want to hammer if drixx hadn't posted in 24 hours.

Don't you think you could have just unvoted after pin gave intent to hammer if you felt the lynch shouldn't go through?

When it went to L-1 that fast I got some gut vibes of something being wrong but I didn't know what it was so I just unvoted so that I'd have some room to think through the wagon. I realized after I unvoted that one of the things that was specifically making me nervous is that you were indicating you wanted pin to hammer a wagon on {nsg/eth0s/drixx} if it had gotten to L-1.

[pinturicchio]

It looked to me like you were grooming pin to want to hammer if drixx hadn't posted in 24 hours.

Don't you think you could have just unvoted after pin gave intent to hammer if you felt the lynch shouldn't go through?

I didn't give intent to hammer at all. Y'all assumed I would vote Drixx because I said that Drixx and Scioness were the scumteam, but I said specifically that I wouldn't vote Drixx nor Scioness without making a case on them before. The closest thing I remember saying is that I intended to vote him, but I said immediately that I wouldn't vote for him without my case.

[Scioness Sajj]

That was not your original point at all, though. Originally you have said that I have planned fits in scum PT.

Yeah that was my original point, but I went back and skimmed through the threads to find examples, I realized I was just misreading. Out of the examples I could find, I'm not sure if you were acting or just being really frustrated. For example, in that post I linked in the game thread wasn't mentioned in the scum thread, so I don't have any evidence it was planned. That's why I said in my last post that you were probably just genuinely pissed off there. Another point of confusion for me originally was that in the scum thread, you said you wanted to pick a fight (which I originally thought meant "act like you're mad") multiple times, but I went to find the post in the game thread and I think you just meant you were going to argue against what someone else had said.

If you have misread it would be best to say you did so. Because if I didn't react to it and didn't push it, there would be just false, fake evidence in this game on me doing things I didn't.

I'm sorry I'm fussing so much over it, I don't want to make this game about my other game but if I feel like if I let it be and people will keep bringing things like that in the way you did, I will be either forced to make every game about my other games or just get lynched for whatever reasons and it seems unfair to me. Especially with things that I have apologized for in game, in scum pt, after the game and personaly.

If you want to read my other game to get an idea of what kind of player I am, that's fine. But I need you to do it right.

I'm pretty sure the posts are there, I will look for them tomorrow.

Rant over sorry.

[skitter30]

I initially thought 410 was a response to:

I also kinda feel like oxy almost wants this hammer to happen?

And didn't realize it was a direct response to ruru.

[Oxy]

It looked to me like you were grooming pin to want to hammer if drixx hadn't posted in 24 hours.

Don't you think you could have just unvoted after pin gave intent to hammer if you felt the lynch shouldn't go through?

I didn't give intent to hammer at all. Y'all assumed I would vote Drixx because I said that Drixx and Scioness were the scumteam, but I said specifically that I wouldn't vote Drixx nor Scioness without making a case on them before. The closest thing I remember saying is that I intended to vote him, but I said immediately that I wouldn't vote for him without my case.

I actually didn't make this assumption which is part of the reason I'm having trouble understanding why skitter30 would react that way.

[Oxy]

I initially thought 410 was a response to:

I also kinda feel like oxy almost wants this hammer to happen?

And didn't realize it was a direct response to ruru.

So you understand it now?

[skitter30]

It looked to me like you were grooming pin to want to hammer if drixx hadn't posted in 24 hours.

Don't you think you could have just unvoted after pin gave intent to hammer if you felt the lynch shouldn't go through?

I didn't give intent to hammer at all. Y'all assumed I would vote Drixx because I said that Drixx and Scioness were the scumteam, but I said specifically that I wouldn't vote Drixx nor Scioness without making a case on them before. The closest thing I remember saying is that I intended to vote him, but I said immediately that I wouldn't vote for him without my case.

I actually didn't make this assumption which is part of the reason I'm having trouble understanding why skitter30 would react that way.

P.S. @Pinturicchio I'm not giving you a team jersey yet, but you can drop the hammer if/when it becomes appropriate.

This looks to me like you wanted pin to hammer.

I wasn't assuming that pin would do it, but it looked to me like you were pressuring pin to do it, and since he was conf-towning you I didn't know how he would react to that once an L-1 wagon had actually formed.

[skitter30]

I initially thought 410 was a response to:

I also kinda feel like oxy almost wants this hammer to happen?

And didn't realize it was a direct response to ruru.

So you understand it now?

Yeah

[ofrhz]

If you want to bring arguments from my only other game and present them here you will have to do your homework and read everything (or enough) to prove it.

My argument is that you can be dramatic/emotional/whatever as scum. As that post has demonstrated. So being emotional here doesn't mean you're town (skitter seems to think it is).

This is a change from my original argument, which was that you're pretending to be dramatic. I'm no longer trying to argue this because, as I just explained, I misread your posts from that game. So no, I no longer have to prove this.

[ruru]

@ruru I'm with you on that for sure. What about that hypothetical? Reasonable misunderstanding?

I could see it as a misunderstanding or clash of playstyles; ofrhz also expressed some doubts, although I find his reason (pin might hammer) more credible even if I don't really agree with it. I don't see it as proof of anything but it does make me suspect her more than before.

Also, I'm having trouble with motivation. Why would scum!skitter30 get off that wagon?

If Drixx is town, because the wagon helps town and does not lead to a lynch on town. And by not wanting town to get lynched she looks less scummy, even if it wasn't going to happen.

If Drixx is scum, because she is panicking and not playing optimally.

And people tend to sheep me in general, and this game apparently when I make a vote there's people who will hop on after me just cuz I voted there (ie the drixx wagon), and like, I don't feel good enough about any wagon right now to be responsible for like three votes.

I feel like this is taking the situation completely out of context

[Oxy]

@skitter30 Please walk me through the thought processes you had when writing these.

Here is where you don't see the connection the first time. I didn't quote her post, so the misunderstanding is perfectly reasonable.

well, I think one of a few things will happen

1) Drixx shows us why experience matters, convincing us that he is town and breaking this beautiful town circle to shreds
2) Drixx starts flailing/stays inactive, and his partner does their best to break this beautiful town circle apart (chainsaw argument)
3) Drixx starts flailing/stays inactive and his partner makes a case on someone outside the town circle but in our null/scum reads, again trying to break up this town circle
4) Drixx starts flailing/stays inactive and his partner stays inactive and we lynch scum

there are probably some other possibilities. It's a dynamic game. Trust your instincts. If one of those scum teams exist, this is where they will start to make mistakes.

Also like this post seems to be emphasizing a town-bloc and how a drixx wagon might cause it to fall apart -> like the emphasis is on a townbloc and not drixx almost. Like even the town!drixx case has this negative outcome of the town bloc breaking apart; the implication seems to be we don't want that to happen. I kinda almost feel like you've been pushing this wagon in an attempt to forge together a townbloc, with yourself in it. I don't really feel like it formed naturally.

My instincts are telling me that something is wrong here.

Here I have explained that it is a hypothetical that assumes the scum team is drixx + eth0s/nsg. Did you continue to misunderstand that? And if you did legitimately misunderstand it, again, why didn't the ridiculous conclusion (town!drixx is a bad thing) not cause you to think about it again?

In post 428, Oxy wrote:
I answered you on this one too quickly (im too riled to sleep right now)
This was in response to a question by Ruru. She asked what would happen if the scum team was Drixx +eth0s/NSG. That's why, by definition, this assumes all 4 of us are town.


Right, but the implication of your post is that town!drixx is a bad thing:

Here is where you had to revisit my post, and continue to not understand it

In post 454, Oxy wrote:
I've never had the thought that town!drixx is a "bad thing." Bad for whom/what? There must be a miscommunication somewhere.


In post 410, Oxy wrote:
1) Drixx shows us why experience matters, convincing us that he is town and breaking this beautiful town circle to shreds


Town!drixx leads to a 'beautiful' townbloc 'breaking to shreds'. The connotation is that this is a bad thing. (ie something beautiful has been destroyed). I don't know why you're framing it this way and I really see a connection between 'town!drixx posting townie things' and 'townbloc getting destroyed'.

Here is where you finally seem to understand the premise, but the conclusion still seems lost to you?

In post 464, Oxy wrote:
Again, this is in the context of a hypothetical question from Ruru, the premise of which is that Drixx is scum, and that all four of us, you, me, ofhrz, and ruru, are town. If scum!drixx convinced town!us that he was town, and in the process made us more suspicious of one another, that would be a bad thing. This is not a post saying what I believe the results of a drixx wagon will be in this game. It is an answer to a hypothetical question that presupposes both his alignment and our alignments.


I'm still not sure if I get what you're trying to say. Are you saying that if drixx is scum but convinces people he's town and enters the townbloc, the townbloc will be destroyed cuz scum infiltrated it?

I read that whole thing as you saying drixx was town.

[ofrhz]

way over confident. backpedaling. once again moving on to the lynch option that he sees most possible and apologizing to everyone that he needs on his side. It almost seems like too blatant of manipulation but I am 100% okay with lynching him today. Gonna get fully caught up first so I can see progression and votecount but yeah. Even if he's town we will get good info. I initially put too much stock into his game-solving ability, I think.

You're going to have to hold my hand on this one. If Oxy flips town, what additional info do we get? Are you still assuming the Oxy v Sajj interaction was SvT?

[skitter30]

Oh, you're analysis is wrong because I'm town. The analysis is reasonable because I can understand a reasonable person seeing that as a scummy set of posts.

Right, but telling me that you're town doesn't really change the fact that from my POV that was a scummy vote/unvote since it looks like you started a case that you dropped cuz you realized you couldn't follow-through on it.

Like I said, it looks to me more like you're looking for cases you can push than for scum.

[ofrhz]

If you want to bring arguments from my only other game and present them here you will have to do your homework and read everything (or enough) to prove it.

My argument is that you can be dramatic/emotional/whatever as scum. As that post has demonstrated. So being emotional here doesn't mean you're town (skitter seems to think it is).

This is a change from my original argument, which was that you're pretending to be dramatic. I'm no longer trying to argue this because, as I just explained, I misread your posts from that game. So no, I no longer have to prove this.

You know what, I think I know what you were trying to say now. Yeah I agree, I could have been more clear when I changed my argument. (is this what you were saying?)

[Oxy]

It looked to me like you were grooming pin to want to hammer if drixx hadn't posted in 24 hours.

Don't you think you could have just unvoted after pin gave intent to hammer if you felt the lynch shouldn't go through?

I didn't give intent to hammer at all. Y'all assumed I would vote Drixx because I said that Drixx and Scioness were the scumteam, but I said specifically that I wouldn't vote Drixx nor Scioness without making a case on them before. The closest thing I remember saying is that I intended to vote him, but I said immediately that I wouldn't vote for him without my case.

I actually didn't make this assumption which is part of the reason I'm having trouble understanding why skitter30 would react that way.

P.S. @Pinturicchio I'm not giving you a team jersey yet, but you can drop the hammer if/when it becomes appropriate.

This looks to me like you wanted pin to hammer.

I wasn't assuming that pin would do it, but it looked to me like you were pressuring pin to do it, and since he was conf-towning you I didn't know how he would react to that once an L-1 wagon had actually formed.

Is it possible that I really meant the part where I said "If/when it becomes appropriate" or did I unequivocally want him to hammer?

[Oxy]

Oh, you're analysis is wrong because I'm town. The analysis is reasonable because I can understand a reasonable person seeing that as a scummy set of posts.

Right, but telling me that you're town doesn't really change the fact that from my POV that was a scummy vote/unvote since it looks like you started a case that you dropped cuz you realized you couldn't follow-through on it.

Like I said, it looks to me more like you're looking for cases you can push than for scum.

I wasn't trying to change your mind on the case. I'm pointing out the difference between you being the reasonable, level headed thinking skitter30 I wrote a read about, and the actions I'm talking to you about in other posts.

[skitter30]

@oxy: You had written that but I think I just didn't get the connection between ruru's post and yours. Like I saw it but I just didn't put together what the connection was. I kept on asking you about it cuz the post didn't make sense to me and I coudln't figure out what you were talking about. I think I just misread it and kept on thinking the post was a response to me and not getting that it was a response to ruru.

[Oxy]

@skitter30 If I'm understanding you, you're saying that you read each of the posts I quoted above, and continued to believe that my original post was not a response to ruru?

[skitter30]

Is it possible that I really meant the part where I said "If/when it becomes appropriate" or did I unequivocally want him to hammer?

I called it 'grooming' before -> the 'team jersey' bit made it look to me like you were trying to make him amenable to doing that. Like he's got you as conf-town - you telling him he'd get a 'team jersey' if he hammered looks to me like you were trying to make him want him to do that to join the town bloc you were forming.

[Oxy]

Is it possible that I really meant the part where I said "If/when it becomes appropriate" or did I unequivocally want him to hammer?

I called it 'grooming' before -> the 'team jersey' bit made it look to me like you were trying to make him amenable to doing that. Like he's got you as conf-town - you telling him he'd get a 'team jersey' if he hammered looks to me like you were trying to make him want him to do that to join the town bloc you were forming.

I did not say he would get a team jersey if he hammered. You've clearly read this post a number of times. Is this another misunderstanding?
Again, is it possible that I was being sincere when I said, "If/when it becomes appropriate?"

[skitter30]

I wasn't trying to change your mind on the case. I'm pointing out the difference between you being the reasonable, level headed thinking skitter30 I wrote a read about, and the actions I'm talking to you about in other posts.

I didn't say you were trying to change my mind about the case? I don't understand what this post is trying to say.

[skitter30]

@skitter30 If I'm understanding you, you're saying that you read each of the posts I quoted above, and continued to believe that my original post was not a response to ruru?

Like I read them but didn't make the connection, yeah. I don't know why I didn't.

[Oxy]

I wasn't trying to change your mind on the case. I'm pointing out the difference between you being the reasonable, level headed thinking skitter30 I wrote a read about, and the actions I'm talking to you about in other posts.

I didn't say you were trying to change my mind about the case? I don't understand what this post is trying to say.

Obviously, I understand that my saying, "I'm town" isn't going to convince you that your analysis was wrong. The point was that I expect you to make posts with reasonable analysis, like you did when you said those posts voting/unvoting Pin looked scummy. I then juxtapositioned that reasonable analysis with what I'm having a hard time finding reasonable. That was the point of the post.

[Oxy]

To bring it back full circle, I'm trying to figure out if your reaction to the Drixx wagon and the posts that followed it were the "scum claim" I said I expected scum!Skitter30 to eventually make.

[skitter30]

I did not say he would get a team jersey if he hammered. You've clearly read this post a number of times. Is this another misunderstanding?
Again, is it possible that I was being sincere when I said, "If/when it becomes appropriate?"

Yes it's possible you were being sincere, but the way the whole thing played out to me looked like you were trying to push the wagon with me/you/ruru/ofrzh, and that one of the ways pin could earn townpoints was by hammering it. Yes, I get that you said 'if/when it became apropriate', but like it shows you were already planning for hammer at a time when the only vote on the wagon was ofrzh, which is why I got nervous that you wanted him to hammer, since you made that post to him in the context of hammering a wagon comprised of me/you/ruru/ofrzh, which is exactly the wagon that happened.

Like it felt to me like you had put together a wagon of me/ofrzh/you/ruru and that you were indicating you wanted pin to hammer it, and that you didn't care whether it was on {eth0s/nsg/drixx}

Also we appear to have different of what constitutes 'apropriate'. I don't think hammering that wagon if drixx hadn't shown up within a day is 'apropriate'. I don't know what pin thinks about that - he was waiting until he felt better so that he could post his drixx case and I don't know if he would have hammered after 24 hours. I don't feel comfortable being on that wagon.